Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Does anybody think that paying for extra detachments is kind of a disadvantage for Chaos Daemons? Khorne and Slaneesh especially want to be mono detachment for rerolling charges and charging after advancing respectively. Basically we’re gonna have to pay a tax for using our loci while other armies wont.

It's a big nerf to any list that relied on 3 detachments, or multiple sub-factions, or multiple factions within a super-faction. Daemons are hit some of the hardest because they basically rely on all 3.

If you can build an army with 1 detachment, you are going to have MORE CP than in 8th. much more.
Brigade/double battalion are going to have about as much CP as they currently do, but a bit more spread out.
Battalion+speciailst are currently an unknown, probably same spot like brigade and double.
Superheavy armies (knights etc) are a total unknown on CP stance.
Triple detachments are going to see a massive CP decrease.

I like the new system as a whole and think it will lead to much more interesting armies rather than the spam of HQ + Troops that we currently have backing up a single powerful unit or two to pour CP into. Fast attack and heavy support may be used again!

That said I would assume that there will be various FAQs that are needed to address obvious issues and clashes with how certain things work.

Daemons and Dark Eldar are both designed to be played as a mix of detachments, I suspect an FAQ saying something along the lines of the first core detachment of each God/sect refunds its CP.

There are other issues, for example Gullyman grants CP if he's the warlord, but to take him you will need to buy a separate detachment which will cost CP and if he's your warlord your core detachment will also cost CP. I use this as an example showing there is alot of little things that they will have had to look at and I hope Daemons will have been included in that. Massive FAQs incoming!

It seems that a Patrol might be the new Spearhead or Outriders, for those Daemonkin players who like to field some Bloat-Drones and Obliterators

Is *every* detachment (Other than aux support) (if they’re even a thing any more) going to have a troops tax? That’s going to suck for a lot of lists.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Wait. In 8ed, Patrols are CP-poor, Battalions are CP-rich.

In 9ed, Battalions are -3CP.

If a Patrol follows the ‘much less Troops tax’ model, then will they cost like 5-6CP to field?

So I got new PA in my hand, biggest disappointment for me is the fact that we have no new spells. Even if I make my LoC exalted one and give him Mastery of Magic, I'll be able to cast 3 + 1 spells total, which then I will not be able to cast on other characters cuz I can attempt the manifest only once except the smite.

Another one is that there is literally nothing for summoning, would be that hard to have gem for 1cp to summon AFTER THE MOVEMENT? Eh.

The gem for Horrors is great since allows you to have first smite 100% but it still adds +1 to next smite manifest since it's still considered a Psychic test

Like most have already stated, no game changers here, just new toys to play with.

yukishiro1 wrote:
It's a big nerf to any list that relied on 3 detachments, or multiple sub-factions, or multiple factions within a super-faction. Daemons are hit some of the hardest because they basically rely on all 3.

that was made for command points, is not mandatory you need 3 detachements, guess now you can play with 1 or 2 only

 mbkgacek wrote:
So I got new PA in my hand, biggest disappointment for me is the fact that we have no new spells.

Can you tell me what pg. 90/91 is about ? The infinite forms of corruption ?

 mbkgacek wrote:

Even if I make my LoC exalted one and give him Mastery of Magic, I'll be able to cast 3 + 1 spells total, which then I will not be able to cast on other characters cuz I can attempt the manifest only once except the smite.

A LoC can cast 2 powers, with mastery of magic he can cast 3. There are three powers which need an 8, do you really want to try to manifest those on a psyker which doesnt get +2 to the roll ?

 mbkgacek wrote:

The gem for Horrors is great since allows you to have first smite 100% but it still adds +1 to next smite manifest since it's still considered a Psychic test

Yes, it sucks. It shouldnt be at the start of the psychic phase.

Can you tell me what pg. 90/91 is about ? The infinite forms of corruption ?

It's just pictures of new Slaanesh daemons. Basically 3/4 of daemon content is a re-print from Wrath and Rapture and CA.
IMHO GW has given very little touch to Daemons, even name generators show it. Mechanicus' name options are something like Sy-gex-089, while Daemons' options are like... Pain, Pox, Death, Fate (literally)

A LoC can cast 2 powers, with mastery of magic he can cast 3. There are three powers which need an 8, do you really want to try to manifest those on a psyker which doesnt get +2 to the roll ?

That's the thing, I'd like to have more spells to choose from so the other casters can cast something instead of smite having that it's warp entities we're talking about.

 mbkgacek wrote:

Can you tell me what pg. 90/91 is about ? The infinite forms of corruption ?

It's just pictures of new Slaanesh daemons. Basically 3/4 of daemon content is a re-print from Wrath and Rapture and CA.
IMGO GW have given very little touch to Daemons, even name generators show it. Mechanicu's name options are something like Sy-gex-089, while Daemon's options are like... Pain, Pox, Death, Fate (literally)

A LoC can cast 2 powers, with mastery of magic he can cast 3. There are three powers which need an 8, do you really want to try to manifest those on a psyker which doesnt get +2 to the roll ?

That's the thing, I'd like to have more spells to choose from so the other casters can cast something instead of smite having that it's warp entities we're talking about.

i have the feeling we will see much changes in next chaos demons codex, perhaps it will be released earlier in 9th

 mbkgacek wrote:
So I got new PA in my hand, biggest disappointment for me is the fact that we have no new spells. Even if I make my LoC exalted one and give him Mastery of Magic, I'll be able to cast 3 + 1 spells total, which then I will not be able to cast on other characters cuz I can attempt the manifest only once except the smite.

Another one is that there is literally nothing for summoning, would be that hard to have gem for 1cp to summon AFTER THE MOVEMENT? Eh.

The gem for Horrors is great since allows you to have first smite 100% but it still adds +1 to next smite manifest since it's still considered a Psychic test

Like most have already stated, no game changers here, just new toys to play with.

You can always use the auto cast strat last after you’ve done all your other smiting. Also the changeling and tzeentch foot heralds have the right keywords to use it in on too. So if you bring either of those it’s basically a free infernal gateway. But yes, overall they have continued the trend in 8th of extremely lazy and boring rules writing for the majority of the daemon codex. Seriously how the hell does the chaos god of magic (or daemons in general really) get no new psychic powers in the PSYCHIC AWAKENING book series. Just gotta hope they get it together when our codex comes out and that it comes relatively soon in the next cycle

The auto 9 on a cast has to be at the start of the phase so it's limited in terms of baiting out dispels or any smite manipulation.
Although reading it again it says to use the strat at the start but it doesn't specify the Horror has to cast immediately. Odd wordings in this book.

 astro_nomicon wrote:

You can always use the auto cast strat last after you’ve done all your other smiting.

Its not an auto cast strat, because it can still be denied on a 10, or when the opponent uses a strat which denies on a roll of 4+. However, i agree with Eldarain that it can be used on a horror infantry unit to cast smite later, after other smites have been done.

I still think bloodblessed is good (make a blood thirster can only take max 8 damage per phase). This enables your blood thirsty to go up the board with your whole army. Shield it with fodder demons from smites. So, basically, the opponent can only shoot at it.

If the opponent knows he can only inflict max 8 damage, maybe he wouldn't even bother targeting that bloodthirster.

Then turn 2, you fly over his fodder and charge/attack the juicy target you really want to kill. Bloodthirsters have wings. So, it should be super easy to fly over and charge something good rather than charge into a bunch of scouts.

Maybe you will die after that, who knows, but at least you got to do something with the blood thirster instead of have it shot off the board turn 1. And it may force him to move differently. end of turn 1, with the advance, he will have a lot of units in his backlines in fly+charge range of a very dangerous bloodthirster. He has to react to that.

I don’t think bloodblessed is good but it’s decent and played with the right way you probably will make a charge T 2. But if you’re playing vs a shooting army you probably have too charge the screen anyway as a better player won’t rush forward with it and wrap around his Killy stuff.

Also with the 9th Ed incoming and a stratagem for MW on the unit that makes a fall back move, you want more bodies as the stratagem says to roll for each of your own models so this hurts bigger things even more.

And finally. I must correct my previous statement, it was all the rules as the datasheets was just the same as before and things like “lord of the warp” probably was some random gak text.
I’m very disappointed in the new stuff we got, and hopefully we get a new codex this fall or start of winter with better rules and new toys for every different God!!

Eldenfirefly wrote:
I still think bloodblessed is good (make a blood thirster can only take max 8 damage per phase). This enables your blood thirsty to go up the board with your whole army. Shield it with fodder demons from smites. So, basically, the opponent can only shoot at it.

If the opponent knows he can only inflict max 8 damage, maybe he wouldn't even bother targeting that bloodthirster.

Then turn 2, you fly over his fodder and charge/attack the juicy target you really want to kill. Bloodthirsters have wings. So, it should be super easy to fly over and charge something good rather than charge into a bunch of scouts.

Maybe you will die after that, who knows, but at least you got to do something with the blood thirster instead of have it shot off the board turn 1. And it may force him to move differently. end of turn 1, with the advance, he will have a lot of units in his backlines in fly+charge range of a very dangerous bloodthirster. He has to react to that.

then you take a look at Tsons cult of magic and you figure that dont work, this is just an example, same might happen with any list that can bring a decent amount of pyschic powers, remember that there are pyschic power that target anything, not just which unit is closer.
Anything will depend about what we will see in 9th edition, now is still early to tell if GD will be really playable outisde friendly games.

Here we go again, with the Keeper of Secrets constantly changing datasheet:


The Datasheet in the box:


The original Datasheet 10 attacks, permanent strength 6, and 14" base movement.





Chapter Approved - 2019

Changed to 6 attacks, depreciating strength, and 12" base





Chapter Approved - 2019 - FAQ


...and back to the original datasheet.




Engine War:


...and 10 attacks, permanent strength 6, and back down to 12" base movement.
So, the new publication of the datasheet needs to FAQ'd yet again.
I swear they don't proof read at all.

The problem is that books are printed 6 months in advance.

Played a game yesterday, with a mate in my garden :-)

Only 1k per side, Daemons VS Deathwatch.

I took a Thirster, Nurgle Herald, Nurglings, Plague Bearers, Letter Bomb, Soul grinder and an Exalted Flamer.

Roll on the exalted table and got "Max 8 dam" and "double wounds on table" traits, so not bad and I took the relic to get wounds back in combat.

He took first turn, we had lots of terrain but nothing to hide my thirster.... 1st squad take off the eight wounds.

I run him up and attempt and fail an 11" charge.

His second turn, 1st squad takes of the other 8 wounds.


I know deathwatch are a bad matchup for daemons with their 2+ to wound bolters and Hammers/shields everywhere but the thirster was so easily dealt with :-(

I'm really hoping that terrain will actually be able to help daemons in 9th, its just a detriment to us at the moment.

The PA exalted stuff is interesting but we needed a whole lot more, ideally a complete codex re-write as we fundementally just don't work as intended and even worse are un-interesting.

Looking through 9th Ed rules and realizing that more or less all the rules so far is very bad for us Daemon players.

Blast weapons - always full hit on lesser daemons.
Tanks are though too crack open if not optimized for and will see more plays and can shoot in cc.

Vehicle and monsters can shoot in cc, how many do we have?

Hopefully we get better rules for terrain so we can foorslog at least some units and hide.

Tazberry wrote:
Looking through 9th Ed rules and realizing that more or less all the rules so far is very bad for us Daemon players.

Blast weapons - always full hit on lesser daemons.
Tanks are though too crack open if not optimized for and will see more plays and can shoot in cc.

Vehicle and monsters can shoot in cc, how many do we have?

Hopefully we get better rules for terrain so we can foorslog at least some units and hide.

Yeah the 9th ed rules currently have me wondering if I should get rid tbh, an army where you're forced to pay P for detachments just to access 3/4 of the codex without losing rules, core infantry intended to function at 20+ and the monster/vehicle rework is actually worse imo for our monsters since the stuff they want to hit can now just shoot them in the face.

Tazberry wrote:
Looking through 9th Ed rules and realizing that more or less all the rules so far is very bad for us Daemon players.

Blast weapons - always full hit on lesser daemons.
Tanks are though too crack open if not optimized for and will see more plays and can shoot in cc.

Vehicle and monsters can shoot in cc, how many do we have?

Hopefully we get better rules for terrain so we can foorslog at least some units and hide.

Well, assuming that the greater daemons stay at under 18 wounds, it looks like the new "OBSCURING" terrain keyword means that they will not be able to be targeted when drawing line of sight through those ruins.

Hopefully there's something about targetting wingtips as it will take truly massive pieces to block out sight to our bigger Daemons.

Yeah, it's going to depend on what counts towards LoS. If you read the rule carefully, if the opponent can draw a line that doesn't go over the terrain then they can still shoot, so wing tips could still be a liability assuming what counts for LoS stays the same.

That said, hiding our Greater Daemons (sorry GUO) has become much easier.

The new Obscuring keyword definitely helps out my Lord of Change. But it's important to note that all of the keywords are optional and must be agreed upon at the start of the game, so it's not like we should expect EVERY 5" piece of terrain to have the Obscuring keyword.

I imagine it'll only come into play for very large pieces of terrain, ones that might hide 90% of a greater daemon, but maybe fail to cover the top 10% of its tallest bits. That would be a good application of the keyword. Ultimately the two players have to decide for themselves. GW isn't the one who is making the call here.

Otherwise I'd guess most terrain pieces will use true LOS as usual.

The new obscuring rules helps melee armies a lot. Unless the opponent is running alot of artillery like thunderfires, (which is an issue).

The main thing is that with obscuring rules, terrain is infinitely high now. If doesn't matter if the other side has devastators or centurions parked 3 stories up, they CANNOT see your melee unit as long as you have an intervening piece of obscuring terrain. And ruins, which are common terrain pieces can easily be considered obscuring.

A lot of "normal" shooting has been nerfed by these rules simply because they will not be able to see a unit that hugs obscuring terrain.

I think people are under estimating this "infinite" height consideration. I remember lots of times when normal ranged units are either parked at high ground or take the form of tall units like knights. Now, it doesn't matter how high the shooter is, as long as there is an intervening obscuring terrain, it can't shoot at you.

The problem is obscuring terrain is infinite in height but not width. So a keeper can't hide behind a 3" wide, 5" high pole (nor should it).

But unless they say "arms n' stuff dun count" then the tip of a keeper's claw sticking out from terrain still let's the opponent draw a line to it.

Obscuring terrain pieces are probably large enough to hide even a Greater daemon behind. What would be challenging to hide would be a 30 man strong plague bearer unit, or blood letter unit.

However, I .. am starting to think that GW doesn't believe an army made of primarily core infantry units should be a winning army list in the first place. Don't get me wrong, they created stuff like secondaries and I am sure there will still be Ob Sec, so troops still have roles to play.

However, I am just not sure GW actually thinks that an army with a balance of troops, elites, heavies, etc should lose to an army of nothing but 200 troops ...

Think about it. For every single faction, GW went to the trouble of creating elites, FA, heavy supports, etc plus the models for those slots. To GW, do you think they would be happy that a list of 200 troop models is a good list ? Because if that is the case, why did they even bother creating all those elites, FA, heavy support for that faction in the first place?

hordes time is over... take that and move on....

Do the 6+ fnp exalted reward for LoC stack with The Changelings 6+fnp ability?