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Thank you for this. I just tried a Slaanesh Daemons army over TTS and saw only the barest shades of some of the maneuvering tricks involved; You laying them out along with the HQ combos and aura stacking will really help me next time I decide to plonk them on a table, virtual or otherwise.
"All you 40k people out there have managed to more or less do something that I did some time ago, and some of my friends did before me, and some of their friends did before them: When you saw the water getting gakky, you decided to, well, get out of the pool, rather than say 'I guess this is water now.'"
What are the 89 reinforcement points for specifically? Especially that makes them so key?
Well there are two parts to the answer:
1. The list needs to summon 1 unit that can do the rise the banners action turn 1 otherwise one of the daemonette-units has to do an action turn 2 and those daemons should be charging instead.
2. I summon the masque because of the -1 to to hit aura for DAEMONETTES but in a match vs psycher heavy armies the infernal enrapturess can be a good summoning option.
Summary: You need to summon 1 unit to rise 3 banners (action) turn 1, since you can´t afford to have 24 daemonettes not fighting in turn 2. I summon the masque because of the amazing synergies with my army, but you could summon any infantry unit turn 1 to do the action.
I am trying to do the distances in my head and not on the table, but are you leaving a character stationary to summon The Masque? If so, is it an objective in or near your DZ (since the character has to be stationary and the Masque must summon within 12" of them)?
I guess where I am going is: does that strategy require 3 objectives in or within 7-12" of your DZ?
Unit1126PLL wrote: I am trying to do the distances in my head and not on the table, but are you leaving a character stationary to summon The Masque? If so, is it an objective in or near your DZ (since the character has to be stationary and the Masque must summon within 12" of them)?
I guess where I am going is: does that strategy require 3 objectives in or within 7-12" of your DZ?
Yes, look closely at the GT-mission pack. Notice the placement of objectives. Not every mission will let you place 3 banners, but many do.
Take scorched earth (mission 12) and Retrieval mission (mission 11), both these missions will let you rise 3 banners. But to reach 3rd objective in scorched earth you have to summon. The daemonettes just can´t reach it with a 7" move. So you use the daemonettes, make a normal move, take the action, summon with either Syll or the epitome, decide this by studying terrain and the opposing army. The seekers, fiends and/or keepers will proviede "look out sir" to the masque. So deployment is done to ensure you can summon on one of the midfield objectives.
Unit1126PLL wrote: I am trying to do the distances in my head and not on the table, but are you leaving a character stationary to summon The Masque? If so, is it an objective in or near your DZ (since the character has to be stationary and the Masque must summon within 12" of them)?
I guess where I am going is: does that strategy require 3 objectives in or within 7-12" of your DZ?
Yes, look closely at the GT-mission pack. Notice the placement of objectives. Not every mission will let you place 3 banners, but many do.
Take scorched earth (mission 12) and Retrieval mission (mission 11), both these missions will let you rise 3 banners. But to reach 3rd objective in scorched earth you have to summon. The daemonettes just can´t reach it with a 7" move. So you use the daemonettes, make a normal move, take the action, summon with either Syll or the epitome, decide this by studying terrain and the opposing army. The seekers, fiends and/or keepers will proviede "look out sir" to the masque. So deployment is done to ensure you can summon on one of the midfield objectives.
Gotcha, so you deploy to make sure either Syll or the Epitome is within 12" of the midfield objective (which is more than 10" away but within 15", since 'nettes can't get to it), move the 'nettes to the other two, summon on that midfield one, and then sweep forwards with fiends and seekers but stay within 3" of the Masque with one or the other (or both).
What are the 89 reinforcement points for specifically? Especially that makes them so key?
Well there are two parts to the answer:
1. The list needs to summon 1 unit that can do the rise the banners action turn 1 otherwise one of the daemonette-units has to do an action turn 2 and those daemons should be charging instead.
2. I summon the masque because of the -1 to to hit aura for DAEMONETTES but in a match vs psycher heavy armies the infernal enrapturess can be a good summoning option.
Summary: You need to summon 1 unit to rise 3 banners (action) turn 1, since you can´t afford to have 24 daemonettes not fighting in turn 2. I summon the masque because of the amazing synergies with my army, but you could summon any infantry unit turn 1 to do the action.
Wait, we’re allowed to Summon on the first turn?
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2020/09/16 14:40:24
What are the 89 reinforcement points for specifically? Especially that makes them so key?
Well there are two parts to the answer:
1. The list needs to summon 1 unit that can do the rise the banners action turn 1 otherwise one of the daemonette-units has to do an action turn 2 and those daemons should be charging instead.
2. I summon the masque because of the -1 to to hit aura for DAEMONETTES but in a match vs psycher heavy armies the infernal enrapturess can be a good summoning option.
Summary: You need to summon 1 unit to rise 3 banners (action) turn 1, since you can´t afford to have 24 daemonettes not fighting in turn 2. I summon the masque because of the amazing synergies with my army, but you could summon any infantry unit turn 1 to do the action.
Wait, we’re allowed to Summon on the first turn?
Can you point to a rule that is stopping you from using daemonic ritual turn 1? Page 256 in the BRB and page 80 in the GT-book are only for strategic reserves.
Automatically Appended Next Post: The GT-mission pack p 6 has rules for reinforcments and the GT-missionpack and reinforcments.
I can see summoning being a greyzone, since the summoned units to not start the battle in a location other than and you can´t delclare it as a reinforcment during step 10. But when set up they follow other rules for reinforcments.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2020/09/16 17:14:53
Unit1126PLL wrote: Oof, well, I'm glad the TO was good with it this time!
The summoning is a bit outdated as game-mechanic. It does not fit in the framework of 9th ed and reserves.
Could one argue that other abilities that add units to the army won´t work turn 1? Like biovores adding sporemines if they miss.
And how about Tervigons, can they spawn a new unit of termagaunts turn 1?
At step 10 there is no unit to place in reserves and what happens if we try to summon a unit i turn 4? Is it declared dead, then?
Or if we don´t spend the points, and don´t summon at all. By the rules reinforcements not placed on the table by turn 3 is considered destroyed.
Reinforcments can´t be placed turn 1, but a reinforcment unit is defined as " A unit that starts the game in a location other than the battlefied, and is not embarked in a transport unit that starts on the battlefield, is considered to be a reinforcement unit."
That does not interact with summoning and reinforcment points in any way. There is no unit to place in any location when the battle starts!?
I guess daemons and summoning will work within the framework once the codex drops.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/16 19:30:21
Summoning would be interesting if it changed to apply to units in strategic reserve. so you could deploy them right onto the table near a character or from a board edge, granted more limited than just using reinforcement points but it would be a nice change compared to how other armies strategic reserves function
"If you are forced to use your trump card, then the battle is already lost"
Lord of Change [14 PL, 270pts, -1CP]: Bolt of Change, Gaze of Fate, Incorporeal Form, Infernal Gateway, Smite, Staff of Tzeentch, The Impossible Robe, Warlord
. Exalted Lord of Change [-1CP]: 5. Aura of Mutability
Troops [26 PL, 554pts, -1CP] +
Bloodletters [8 PL, 185pts, -1CP]: Banner of Blood [-1CP], Daemonic Icon [15pts], Instrument of Chaos [10pts]
. 19x Bloodletter [152pts]: 19x Hellblade
. Bloodreaper [8pts]: Hellblade
Nurglings [2 PL, 54pts]
. 3x Nurgling Swarms [54pts]: 3x Diseased claws and teeth
Nurglings [2 PL, 54pts]
. 3x Nurgling Swarms [54pts]: 3x Diseased claws and teeth
Nurglings [2 PL, 54pts]
. 3x Nurgling Swarms [54pts]: 3x Diseased claws and teeth
Lord of Change [14 PL, 270pts, -1CP]: Bolt of Change, Gaze of Fate, Incorporeal Form, Infernal Gateway, Smite, Staff of Tzeentch, The Impossible Robe, Warlord
. Exalted Lord of Change [-1CP]: 5. Aura of Mutability
Troops [26 PL, 554pts, -1CP] +
Bloodletters [8 PL, 185pts, -1CP]: Banner of Blood [-1CP], Daemonic Icon [15pts], Instrument of Chaos [10pts]
. 19x Bloodletter [152pts]: 19x Hellblade
. Bloodreaper [8pts]: Hellblade
Nurglings [2 PL, 54pts]
. 3x Nurgling Swarms [54pts]: 3x Diseased claws and teeth
Nurglings [2 PL, 54pts]
. 3x Nurgling Swarms [54pts]: 3x Diseased claws and teeth
Nurglings [2 PL, 54pts]
. 3x Nurgling Swarms [54pts]: 3x Diseased claws and teeth
I'm guessing he runs around the map being really annoying to kill. His list has virtually no dedicated damage units. Just the bloodletters really. Everything else in the list appears to be fielded for their durability, with damage being a secondary concern.
Eight beasts of Nurgle is a ludicrously efficient target unit for acidic slobber. In a 2K game, I’d maybe be inclined to put the Nurgle lot in their own detachment to really make those attacks pop, but I certainly can’t argue with Dan’s results - I guess he found the extra CP from taking a single detachment was worth the opportunity cost
Hmm. Hobby idea - a box of plague drones costs a third what three BoNs would, BoNs are supposed to be the larval forms of the flies, the wings are super useful for like space marine characters, AND you get three Plaguebearers… have a couple of actual BoNs at the front for recognisability of silhouette, and use their spare parts to make a load of the maggots recognisable for what they are
It’d probably look better than a load of ‘proper’ BoNs, individually they’re an amazing sculpt but as a large group their oddly regimented posture is a bit uncanny valley
lindsay40k wrote: Hmm. Hobby idea - a box of plague drones costs a third what three BoNs would, BoNs are supposed to be the larval forms of the flies, the wings are super useful for like space marine characters, AND you get three Plaguebearers… have a couple of actual BoNs at the front for recognisability of silhouette, and use their spare parts to make a load of the maggots recognisable for what they are
It’d probably look better than a load of ‘proper’ BoNs, individually they’re an amazing sculpt but as a large group their oddly regimented posture is a bit uncanny valley
i made 9 of my beasts with drones indeed
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lindsay40k wrote: Hmm. Hobby idea - a box of plague drones costs a third what three BoNs would, BoNs are supposed to be the larval forms of the flies, the wings are super useful for like space marine characters, AND you get three Plaguebearers… have a couple of actual BoNs at the front for recognisability of silhouette, and use their spare parts to make a load of the maggots recognisable for what they are
It’d probably look better than a load of ‘proper’ BoNs, individually they’re an amazing sculpt but as a large group their oddly regimented posture is a bit uncanny valley
I'm building a mono Khorne, fast, threat saturation type list. In short, one of each bloodthirster (all exalted), 3x10 hounds, 6 crushers, Karanak, 25-man bloodletter bomb, 2x10 bloodletters. I have some questions about this type of list
1. Does a winged skullreaver prince have a place in a list which already has 2 or more bloodthirsters? The benefit of being untargetable seems wasted when there are juicier targets anyway. The winged DP is now only 35-55 points less than a bloodthirster.
2. Is a deepstriking bloodletter bomb going to be crowded out by so many other units with big bases? I feel like there often won't be space to put them somewhere good. Is this a scenario where running 3x15 on foot as objective holders is preferable, or would you go further and run 3x10 and put the extra points into more hounds/crushers? A skull cannon?
3. Does this type of list give bloodcrushers a place? They seem like they'd be ignored in favour of shooting the bloodthirsters. They are a fraction over 2 points more per wound than flesh hounds, but have a 4+ save.
4. If running three bloodthirsters, would you give them all a relic? Two relics seems mandatory, with the Armour of Scorn and Gr'makht the Destroyer, but are any of the other relics worth another 2CP? The blood drinker talisman seems cool, but 2CP seems steep for the potential of getting wounds back IF you make it into combat
5. The exalted greater daemon traits for bloodthirsters are awesome, I don't see any bad options. Do you roll for two, or choose one?
Any advice is appreciated, I haven't fielded daemons since they were part of the CSM codex
Snake Tortoise wrote: I'm building a mono Khorne, fast, threat saturation type list. In short, one of each bloodthirster (all exalted), 3x10 hounds, 6 crushers, Karanak, 25-man bloodletter bomb, 2x10 bloodletters. I have some questions about this type of list
1. Does a winged skullreaver prince have a place in a list which already has 2 or more bloodthirsters? The benefit of being untargetable seems wasted when there are juicier targets anyway. The winged DP is now only 35-55 points less than a bloodthirster.
2. Is a deepstriking bloodletter bomb going to be crowded out by so many other units with big bases? I feel like there often won't be space to put them somewhere good. Is this a scenario where running 3x15 on foot as objective holders is preferable, or would you go further and run 3x10 and put the extra points into more hounds/crushers? A skull cannon?
3. Does this type of list give bloodcrushers a place? They seem like they'd be ignored in favour of shooting the bloodthirsters. They are a fraction over 2 points more per wound than flesh hounds, but have a 4+ save.
4. If running three bloodthirsters, would you give them all a relic? Two relics seems mandatory, with the Armour of Scorn and Gr'makht the Destroyer, but are any of the other relics worth another 2CP? The blood drinker talisman seems cool, but 2CP seems steep for the potential of getting wounds back IF you make it into combat
5. The exalted greater daemon traits for bloodthirsters are awesome, I don't see any bad options. Do you roll for two, or choose one?
Any advice is appreciated, I haven't fielded daemons since they were part of the CSM codex
You need to run you bloodletters in unit of 10 or 30 and you need a bloodmaster near because when they charge, you want that extra +1 str.
MSU for flesh hound. They are you conterspell guys. (I run 2 or 3 unit of 5)
that all i can tell... everything else is how you played the game and how you want to have fun. Here a list with 3 Bloodthirster (not mine but if you want to run big, do it big
Snake Tortoise wrote: I'm building a mono Khorne, fast, threat saturation type list. In short, one of each bloodthirster (all exalted), 3x10 hounds, 6 crushers, Karanak, 25-man bloodletter bomb, 2x10 bloodletters. I have some questions about this type of list
1. Does a winged skullreaver prince have a place in a list which already has 2 or more bloodthirsters? The benefit of being untargetable seems wasted when there are juicier targets anyway. The winged DP is now only 35-55 points less than a bloodthirster.
2. Is a deepstriking bloodletter bomb going to be crowded out by so many other units with big bases? I feel like there often won't be space to put them somewhere good. Is this a scenario where running 3x15 on foot as objective holders is preferable, or would you go further and run 3x10 and put the extra points into more hounds/crushers? A skull cannon?
3. Does this type of list give bloodcrushers a place? They seem like they'd be ignored in favour of shooting the bloodthirsters. They are a fraction over 2 points more per wound than flesh hounds, but have a 4+ save.
4. If running three bloodthirsters, would you give them all a relic? Two relics seems mandatory, with the Armour of Scorn and Gr'makht the Destroyer, but are any of the other relics worth another 2CP? The blood drinker talisman seems cool, but 2CP seems steep for the potential of getting wounds back IF you make it into combat
5. The exalted greater daemon traits for bloodthirsters are awesome, I don't see any bad options. Do you roll for two, or choose one?
Any advice is appreciated, I haven't fielded daemons since they were part of the CSM codex
1) I prefer Skullreaver on a Bloodthirster of Unfettered Fury. The success of the prince depends on if you place him in reserves and how many snipers your opponent has. Wherever this artifact goes, expect your opponent to make it priority #1 if they have ever played against it before.
2) This is really a meta question. Everybody plays with different amounts and sizes of terrain. You won't know for sure until you go to your local FLGS or tournament and play.
3) I would drop bloodcrushers in favor of bulking out your existing bloodletter squads or add new ones (they die very quickly to even the most basic weapons...and then there's Blast). The bloodcrushers are cavalry and you need the infantry keyword to perform actions as well. Leave the capture only stuff to the faster fleshounds. I would run Bloodletters MSU units of 10 to mitigate Blast and go for as many objectives as possible unless you really want to do one "bomb" unit. You can always sent two units of 10 (or more) after an important or contested objective.
4) If they are all also exalted (which they should be) then you are starting the game -6CP. That doesn't leave a lot leftover for stratagems and rerolls. I would prioritize exalted over extra artifact.
5) If playing competitively I would pick the defensive traits as they die faster than you think. Often you are just trading units with BT's. Or they are a distraction that don't actually make it across the board while your other units capture objectives/perform actions. If it's a casual game then roll for it and have fun.
Good luck!
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2020/09/30 13:34:00
I play:
40K: Daemons, Tau
AoS: Blades of Khorne, Disciples of Tzeentch
Warmachine: Convergence of Cyriss
Infinity: Haqqislam, Tohaa
Malifaux: Bayou
Star Wars Legion: Republic & Separatists
MESBG: Far Harad, Misty Mountains
I’m genuinely finding Bloodcrushers good now they can trample and charge again. If an objective is being babysat by like Devastators, a heavily damaged intervening unit becomes a speed ramp.
You need to run you bloodletters in unit of 10 or 30 and you need a bloodmaster near because when they charge, you want that extra +1 str.
MSU for flesh hound. They are you conterspell guys. (I run 2 or 3 unit of 5)
that all i can tell... everything else is how you played the game and how you want to have fun. Here a list with 3 Bloodthirster (not mine but if you want to run big, do it big
I think I still rate flesh hounds based on previous editions when they were amazing (6th? 7th?). In any case, I've almost painted twenty and Karanak so they'll have to stay for now.
That's an interesting list. I can't argue with triple IR bloodthirsters...that's brutal. I like that someone is getting some use out of bloodcrushers too, they should make it to combat unhurt when there are bigger threats bearing down
D6Damager wrote:
1) I prefer Skullreaver on a Bloodthirster of Unfettered Fury. The success of the prince depends on if you place him in reserves and how many snipers your opponent has. Wherever this artifact goes, expect your opponent to make it priority #1 if they have ever played against it before.
2) This is really a meta question. Everybody plays with different amounts and sizes of terrain. You won't know for sure until you go to your local FLGS or tournament and play.
3) I would drop bloodcrushers in favor of bulking out your existing bloodletter squads or add new ones (they die very quickly to even the most basic weapons...and then there's Blast). The bloodcrushers are cavalry and you need the infantry keyword to perform actions as well. Leave the capture only stuff to the faster fleshounds. I would run Bloodletters MSU units of 10 to mitigate Blast and go for as many objectives as possible unless you really want to do one "bomb" unit. You can always sent two units of 10 (or more) after an important or contested objective.
4) If they are all also exalted (which they should be) then you are starting the game -6CP. That doesn't leave a lot leftover for stratagems and rerolls. I would prioritize exalted over extra artifact.
5) If playing competitively I would pick the defensive traits as they die faster than you think. Often you are just trading units with BT's. Or they are a distraction that don't actually make it across the board while your other units capture objectives/perform actions. If it's a casual game then roll for it and have fun.
Good luck!
Thanks. The lack of infantry Khorne daemons have is tricky. Bloodletters, heralds, furies, that's it. My hope is the opponent has so many other more pressing units to deal with they can't spare the shots to clear the troops
The third artifact is a bad idea, agreed.
lindsay40k wrote:I’m genuinely finding Bloodcrushers good now they can trample and charge again. If an objective is being babysat by like Devastators, a heavily damaged intervening unit becomes a speed ramp.
Yeah that's a good strat, bulldoze some weakened chaff and launch into another assault. Good to hear it's working as intended. I like the flesh hound one too, advance and charge could make all the difference.
the most issue Korne have is durability, control obj or get some secondaries is a problem, and not fast enough too as Slaanesh is.
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The thing about the Juggers strat is it doesn’t only let you stomp your way through a heavily weakened screen, it’s also a way to take out hard targets
If it hasn’t got a MW mitigation capability, shenanigans like rerollable 3++ and negatives to wound really don’t matter. I can see them being especially useful in Crusades
Ironically, the best counter may well be a Contorted Epitome.
Quick question - can I take 3 of the exalted GD relics if I have 3 exalted GDs (one on each), or is it just one per army? I'm just trying to make sense of the wording.
