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Fateweaver isn't great. It's unfortunate. Here's hoping codexes give us something more.

 astro_nomicon wrote:

 luke1705 wrote:

Captyn_Bob wrote:
https://17890-presscdn-0-51-pagely.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/40K_8th_ed_Update_Index_Chaos_ver_1.0.pdf

Fatey just got his 4++ back

He never lost it

Glad they fixed that. Definitely makes him worthwhile over a LOC now IMO

How do you justify him over Magnus though? The D3 extra command points and leadership sharing don't seem to justify being less durable and decidedly less killy in every other phase of the game.


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I apologize for consistently harping on this subject, but I'm still really salty about Fateweavers sidegrade from versatile force multiplier toolbox to sub par beatstick.

Both LoCs are just bad. Just take Magnus and more DPs instead.

 astro_nomicon wrote:

 luke1705 wrote:

Captyn_Bob wrote:
https://17890-presscdn-0-51-pagely.netdna-ssl.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/06/40K_8th_ed_Update_Index_Chaos_ver_1.0.pdf

Fatey just got his 4++ back

He never lost it

Glad they fixed that. Definitely makes him worthwhile over a LOC now IMO

How do you justify him over Magnus though? The D3 extra command points and leadership sharing don't seem to justify being less durable and decidedly less killy in every other phase of the game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I apologize for consistently harping on this subject, but I'm still really salty about Fateweavers sidegrade from versatile force multiplier toolbox to sub par beatstick.

Oh I don't. He's not better than Magnus. I don't think taking both of them is an awful idea though, but it's not as good as daemon princes of course. I'm just glad that he's not objectively worse than a LOC.

Yes, now he's just a subjectively worse LoC

 Rydria wrote:

 Virules wrote:

 Darksider wrote:

 Virules wrote:
I won an 18 person ITC tournament today against some very active local and national tournament players. I finished just ahead of the same guy who won the GT in Idaho last week. I beat a list just like it in the final game, in pretty brutal fashion. I used Aetos and he was great.

Sounds good =).


What was the rest of your army?

I posted my army and who I played against on my blog: http://facebook.com/hexfleetvirules

Aetos was my swiss army knife and was key to dealing with all the flying vehicle spam. I also used him to multi assault armies with lots of MSU infantry. When possibly, I used treason of tzeentch to multi assault with an enemy character first to minimize overwatch. I forgot that Zara bleeds over on mortal wounds, which would have helped. Magnus died 2/3 games, Zara in 1/3, Aetos never died. I'm changing up my list a bit for a big GT next week.

I noticed you plan to use exalted chariots over regular ones, I happen to own 7 seeker chariots and and a pair of exalted chariots and I wondered if you would be willing to share your idea with me. For your monoslaanesh list.

I would also be interested in your mono Slaanesh army


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I am thinking of an army built around decimators, they look awesome and easy to buff as they have <legion> <mark of chaos> and <daemon> I am just trying to decide which mark to go for, I am thinking Tzeentch can bring Magnus and Aetaos for a nasty team up. Nurgle could use Epidemus to buff them as well as Death guard support. Slaanesh look the weakest whilst khorne does not really add much.

So drawing inspiration from: http://facebook.com/hexfleetvirules

I think I am going to have Aetaos, Magnus, Decimators, Changeling and other units to fill in the gaps (namely anything that can deal with hordes).

Having Aetaos and Magnus together seems like having all your eggs in one Basket-- Aetaos alone I can justify, as he's realistically only 150 or so pts more than a loaded out Knight. Both, though... I'm not sure. Could work, certainly, but i've found one of the first things I cut from all my "dream team" lists for my Daemons has been Magnus, unfortunately.

 Cephalobeard wrote:
Having Aetaos and Magnus together seems like having all your eggs in one Basket-- Aetaos alone I can justify, as he's realistically only 150 or so pts more than a loaded out Knight. Both, though... I'm not sure. Could work, certainly, but i've found one of the first things I cut from all my "dream team" lists for my Daemons has been Magnus, unfortunately.

What's been your problem with Magnus?

Specifically I've just found myself wanting to use multiple other targets instead. I can get 6 Exalted Flamers, 4 Heralds on Discs, etc for the same price point. Purely because the Character* rule is as strong as it is, these things then tend to end up being more defensive and lasting longer than Magnus.

Don't get me wrong, he's incredible. Tzeentch just seems skewed to be doing slightly different things, and as it currently stands Daemons have a large advantage in their ability to use multiple characters.

 Cephalobeard wrote:
Specifically I've just found myself wanting to use multiple other targets instead. I can get 6 Exalted Flamers, 4 Heralds on Discs, etc for the same price point. Purely because the Character* rule is as strong as it is, these things then tend to end up being more defensive and lasting longer than Magnus.

Don't get me wrong, he's incredible. Tzeentch just seems skewed to be doing slightly different things, and as it currently stands Daemons have a large advantage in their ability to use multiple characters.

The thing with Magnus is he is not a defensive unit but an aggressive unit, will Magnus probably die during the battle-yes, but along the way he will cause a good amount of damage and distract firepower from other tough targets (namely decimators) would I have him as my warlord- No never in this list but as an agressive option for me he is better than most other options for the points

Certainly. He's a beatstick.

 Cephalobeard wrote:
Certainly. He's a beatstick.

And that's what I want for this army, I want to be agressive and the decimators, Magnus and Aetaos allow me to do that. The changeling will help with survivor ability, horrors for cheap objective scoring and other units to take care of hordes (possibly flamers etc.)

the army from: http://facebook.com/hexfleetvirules had Zarakynel as well as Magnus and Aetaos and won a tournament! Now for me I prefer to go mono god and with Decimators being demon and legion they seem perfect, could I look at other demon engines- sure but I just don't know whether they will be as effective for the points as Decimators.

http://facebook.com/hexfleetvirules tournament win was interesting, he did not really face a true horde list so it would have been interesting to see how he's list would have performed against those armies.

My concern for Aetaos and Magnus w/ Changeling is that Aetaos and Magnus drastically outspeed the Changeling.

I certainly can't say the list isn't effective, it won, but perhaps that's more a testament to the general than the models.

My vision of Aetaos, while still untested and as a result worth plenty of salt, is to also keep him along with the Changeling, but to keep him back for a turn or two while Heralds/Horrors advance steadily toward the enemy.

Mass rate of fire is what takes down these large units, and the -1 to Hit from the changeling is a TERRIFYING debuff to them,

 Cephalobeard wrote:
My concern for Aetaos and Magnus w/ Changeling is that Aetaos and Magnus drastically outspeed the Changeling.

I certainly can't say the list isn't effective, it won, but perhaps that's more a testament to the general than the models.

My vision of Aetaos, while still untested and as a result worth plenty of salt, is to also keep him along with the Changeling, but to keep him back for a turn or two while Heralds/Horrors advance steadily toward the enemy.

Mass rate of fire is what takes down these large units, and the -1 to Hit from the changeling is a TERRIFYING debuff to them,

Hmmm Well if your holding back Aetaos then you could if you wanted too hold back Magnus and use warptime on some other unit (perhaps a combat decimator)

Also the changeling has decent range: 6" move plus advance and the power has 9" range (that is an effective range of 16"-21" to keep up with Magnus)

Aetaos has a 60" Weapon and a 50" Smite, he's able to stay effective in the back.

Hmmm Well if your holding back Aetaos then you could if you wanted too hold back Magnus and use warptime on some other unit (perhaps a combat decimator)

Also the changeling has decent range: 6" move plus advance and the power has 9" range (that is an effective range of 16"-21" to keep up with Magnus)


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Ok for Magnus LOS blocking terrain is important, he flies behind it BUT still in range of the changeling, the rest of the force marches forward the changeling buffing as he goes. The opponent then has a choice, advance to get clear LOS on Magnus or bring in reserves knowing he will have to commit a substantial portion of he's force to kill him. Or they will have to sit back focus fire on everything else knowing that Magnus will have him turn 2 or 3 (whenever you want) along with the rest of the force.


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One army I have been trying to get off the ground is Slaanesh, Zarakynel looks good, Fiends may have potential but beyond that I am not sure

I use the Changeling as protection vs turn 1 alpha strikes, to protect my brimstones, for extra smiting, for emergency melee, and only rarely for -1 to hit on Magnus or Aetos past turn 1 (i.e., I am in the middle of the board with Changeling and he happens to reach 9" into enemy deployment zone where Magnus and Aetos are probably at).

You really need to have all 3 big daemons going full-on assault and getting to the enemy as fast as possible in order for them to make up their points cost. I will sometimes fly away with Magnus once he looks to be in trouble, but that's it. If nothing else, you want to multi-assault non-flying units to keep them from shooting you each turn. You also need to be in short range for many of the powers. Plus, you need to position yourself to optimize smite targets. Aetos can kill a character or a vehicle (including flying vehicles) in combat each turn, so keeping him back is a waste. I would only stay in the back if I am facing a 95% assault army and I want them to come to me so I can counter assault and strike first.

I am revising my army list to try to do more vs hordes but in retrospect I think I can do decently well vs hordes with psychic powers to target out aura characters and with zarakynel doing mortal wounds that bleeds over + psychic power to attack twice. I am a little worried about a strong tyranids list with fast hordes, shadow in the warp, and strong melee creatures, but we'll see...and that kind of army is good versus everything but flying vehicles anyway.

I have lots of all Nurgle armies I've tried at my blog, if you go back through my posts. I also gave my Slaanesh list in the comments of the post about my tournament win.

Hordes can be an issue.

I'm still thinking something along the lines of:

Aetaos, 6 Exalted Flamers, 6 Heralds on Discs, 6x 1 Blue 9 Brim, Changeling.

Exalted flamers do very well against infantry, Heralds put out a respectable number of smites, etc.

Either way, very excited to actuall try Aetaos on the table. I agree with trying to make him as aggressive as possible.

So now that <Daemon> Daemon Princes are less than 10W, it seems we can have our cake and eat it too (i.e. be untargetable and benefit from "Daemon of ____")

I'm thinking Nurgle and Tzeentch Princes are the best, but even then you only take the Tz ones once you have 2-3 Nurgle ones already. In Matched play you can only cast a power once, so once you exhaust the Nurgle discipline, you start to get more out of Tzeentch.

What's a good artilery unit for Daemons. I don't want to add CSM stuff unless they benefit from daemon buffs like Obliterators, fiends, lord of skulls...

Fiends are kinda chumpy but they prevent dudes from leaving combat which is very good

I kinda regret converting 10 fiends back in the day because they've been consistenly poor. They cost too much, are too fragile and don't do enough damage. If they had a rule which allowed them to charge 3d6, or had some way to improve their charge range, I'd be all over them. They'd be a nice little tool to summon on a character already in combat/about to charge, to prevent your opponent from trying to fall back from combat. Unfortunately, they'll almost never make the charge directly from being summoned and are neither durable nor fast enough to start on the table.

The rule is super incredible but you said it all, they're slow and aren't tough enough to survive to get anywhere. If they were higher toughness or faster that would've been a different story..

Fiends should be strength 5 like they where in 4th/5th, they where actually a really good unit back then who sadly got overshadowed by bloodcrusher, they then got randomly nerffed in 6th .

Losing 1 strength, 2 attack, hit and run, while also going up in cost I never understood the reasoning for it, I mean at first when we thought they could prevent people fighting back with that -5 initiative thing but then that got removed :/

Edit: Does no one else find it weird that spawn, terminators, Nobs, other beasts/cav went up by 1 wound but Fiends remained at 3 wounds ?

Fiends were one of the best daemon units for most of the 5th, prior to the Tzeentch WD releases. Fateweaver and Bloodcrushers had their place, but Fiends seemed to be the cornerstone of Daemons lists at the time. They were nerfed because they were so strong, and just never really recovered as the editions rotated around...

I wonder if GW has a chart somewhere of each unit and which editions it was good in. And if it was good in one interation, it simply won't be any good for at least a couple of editions. Obviously this isn't how it works, because it would have to work on the premise that GW a) understand their game, b) care about balance and c) deliberately attempt to make the old "OP" trash in order to sell new models. It's a nice thought though, given the lack of other reasonable explanation.

Back in the 4th/5th Edition Fiends were awesome as were the original chariots. You could even buy unholy might on the unit champion for S6. They just torrented vehicles and anything else to death. I use to max them out in every list, sadly you could only take 18. They were probably too good at the time. They've been rubbish ever since. But back then you could run a mono-god list for any of the god and, and still have a powerful list. From the 6th on GW kept trying to force synergy between the four gods. So, if you wanted anti-tank you needed Tzeentch for shooting, for objective camping some Nurgle, and Khorne for...well nothing apparently. But now that you pretty much need/want to run Mono-god lists again. They needed to give each god's army some viable anti-tank. Fiends needed to at least S5 or perhaps 2X damage on their rends wounds to really have a place. Slaaneshi armies did't need any more anti-infantry; they need more fast anti-vehicle.

That said they are cheap drops and one of the few single model elite units we can take. So you can cheaply pad out you detachment for command points. Plus being able to lock non-flying opponents in melee is still useful.

Can you voluntarily take a morale check for a unit of daemons (the kind of check you would autopass thanks to ld vs casualties)? If so this would be a cool way to get back mdels with an icon that have been killed previously.

peirceg wrote:
Can you voluntarily take a morale check for a unit of daemons (the kind of check you would autopass thanks to ld vs casualties)? If so this would be a cool way to get back mdels with an icon that have been killed previously.

There's nothing in the rules that I've seen that would allow that. But even if you could it still would be worth it with a 16.7% chance of success.

While you can't voluntarily take a Morale check, you are forced to if any models from the unit have been slain - even if you haven't lost enough to fail.

So say in Turn 1, you lose 5 Daemons from a unit with a Ld of 7 or better & then pass your morale check but don't roll a 1, then in Turn 2 you lose 1 model. If there's no leadership/morale modifiers here's no way for you to fail this. However you still have to take the check. You then roll a 1 and get D6 Daemons back.

That said, I believe the auto-pass stratagem also means you don't roll - but I'd have to go check.

Sorry, but I got to ask.
You are saying that Papa has a 4++ save, where can I find that?
Probably i'm missing something

 Sersi wrote:
Back in the 4th/5th Edition Fiends were awesome as were the original chariots. You could even buy unholy might on the unit champion for S6. They just torrented vehicles and anything else to death. I use to max them out in every list, sadly you could only take 18. They were probably too good at the time. They've been rubbish ever since. But back then you could run a mono-god list for any of the god and, and still have a powerful list. From the 6th on GW kept trying to force synergy between the four gods. So, if you wanted anti-tank you needed Tzeentch for shooting, for objective camping some Nurgle, and Khorne for...well nothing apparently. But now that you pretty much need/want to run Mono-god lists again. They needed to give each god's army some viable anti-tank. Fiends needed to at least S5 or perhaps 2X damage on their rends wounds to really have a place. Slaaneshi armies did't need any more anti-infantry; they need more fast anti-vehicle.

That said they are cheap drops and one of the few single model elite units we can take. So you can cheaply pad out you detachment for command points. Plus being able to lock non-flying opponents in melee is still useful.

I was actually annoyed when they released the new chariot kit, not because they released it but because they nerffed them into vehicles, when they where previously awesome as cavalry.