Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Captyn_Bob wrote:
Pretty much confirmed that Maelific Lords are getting a points bump.
Boooo

As someone who loved using a set of 3 in my lists (I converted some Cenobites from Hellraiser, out of Warmachine Cephalyx Overlords models)... I will still easily admit that Malefic Lords are embarrassingly under-costed. At 60pts each I probably wouldn't take 3... but man... even at 40-45, I probably would.

 Cephalobeard wrote:
Rogue Psyker Covens would be better if they had the character rule. As it stands, they can instantly be shot at. It's a bit of a shame.

That being said, FLG is now seeming to indicate "Smite is being looked at" by GW. I hate that I even have to say it, but it seems it's entirely possible that Tzeentch as a Caster army may be through if that's the case, at least until we see a codex. For now, I'm doing a hard swap to Alpha Legion primary until then.

Ok, i will try them anyway. It sounds fun!

Oh man, smite nerf again? And why? Because of FLG? I didnt understand ur post fully, sorry.
I know that Smite is available for all psyker, but Daemons really will suffer big time.
And still no announcments of codex or whatever.

Just play Pink Horrors with split mechanic then - not!

God, i dont like this news really.

Losing smite essentially makes owning tzeentch useless might as well just start dg..

Malefics could definitely afford a price hike. Full Smite, easy to hide, and Warp Flux is absolutely devastating versus vehicles. Even up to 50 points and they're still probably playable.

Hopefully if they nerf Smite they don't nerf the power itself, just limit how many times it can be cast per turn. The only problem with Smite is that some armies can really abuse it and spam cheap units (*cough*Maleficlords*cough*) that can throw enough mortal wounds out to cripple some armies without having to do any real work. And these same characters can remain immune to return fire by hiding behind tanky gribblies like Nurglings, Cultists, or Brimstone Horrors. I've faced a Smite spam army before (8 Nurgle DP's with a bunch of Nurglings screening them) and it wasn't fun to face. At all.

Well, Tzeentch and Thousand Sons is gonna get thrown under the bus because of fething undercosted malefic lords and astropaths.

Yep. Without it Tzeentch has, basically, nothing.

I dunno, I'm really dubious about the anger towards maelific lords. An eldar warlock has a comparable basic profile (little less tough, considerably better in melee) and is 37 points. While his smite is a weak smite, he also has actual useful psychic powers. He is not that far off of a maelific lord and no one is running warlock spam nor are they super excited about warlocks. If maelific lords got a price bump of 5 points and a smite nerf, they would be gakky versions of warlocks. If they got doubled in points (like razorwings did), then it would be hard to justify why you'd run them over heralds of slaanesh, which no one is amped up to run.

I think they could endure a little bit of toning down, but honestly not a great deal, before becoming mediocre. Because examples of cheap HQ low end psychers exist elsewhere and no one is trying to spam them.

drakerocket wrote:

I dunno, I'm really dubious about the anger towards maelific lords. An eldar warlock has a comparable basic profile (little less tough, considerably better in melee) and is 37 points. While his smite is a weak smite, he also has actual useful psychic powers. He is not that far off of a maelific lord and no one is running warlock spam nor are they super excited about warlocks. If maelific lords got a price bump of 5 points and a smite nerf, they would be gakky versions of warlocks. If they got doubled in points (like razorwings did), then it would be hard to justify why you'd run them over heralds of slaanesh, which no one is amped up to run.

I think they could endure a little bit of toning down, but honestly not a great deal, before becoming mediocre. Because examples of cheap HQ low end psychers exist elsewhere and no one is trying to spam them.

Sounds very true!
Also, there are ways to play around Smite, deny it or whatever.
Why is it being looked at?
And why are Lords looked at? As if they smite half army turn 1....totally not the case.
I dont understand why people cant deal with it. There are many options.

Its mostly because they're 30pts, T4, 4w, 4++ and can full smite. If they perils, they go super saiyan and become S8 AP-2 2D 4A.

If they were t3, 3w, no inv save, and then maybe 35-40pts, it wouldn't matter. Half because a single perils could make them explode and kill everyone around them, which honestly feels fluffy for a cultist casting spells they couldn't begin to comprehend completely.

 Ebolatheripe wrote:
Question for anyone that has Imperial Armor Index Forces of Chaos.

Are Plague Toads or Pox Riders any good? I want to give my Nurgle force some more variety in units, but I don't have the Imperial Armor book yet, and can't find any info on those two units at all in 8th edition.

I like them, but I suggest poxriders so you can get icon/instrument and -1 to be hit. They are pretty expensive though, but can put out a large amount of damage and are decently resilient.
I think its for 6 poxriders, you get -1 to be hit, like plaguebearers, a unit of 6 is equal to the days in the year point wise. So they add up. I got to use mine against tyranids with Corbax Utterblight, they did some serious work against warrior, hordes and even hive tyrant.

6 of them will throw out:

6, 7" bolt pistols
12 plagueswords (same as PB)
18 melee heavy bolters that do D3 dmg and on hit rolls of 6s, an additional automatic hit.
Don't forget 5 wounds each either, 30 wounds in a unit of 6. Tough cookies to budge. Also, they have FLY, just a little extra awesome.

I would think of them as an alternative to Plague drones. Slower, more wounds, and less, but harder hitting attacks. 3 drones are about 30pt less than 3 poxriders, but 3 drones is also 6 wounds less than 3 poxriders.

 Cephalobeard wrote:
Its mostly because they're 30pts, T4, 4w, 4++ and can full smite. If they perils, they go super saiyan and become S8 AP-2 2D 4A.

If they were t3, 3w, no inv save, and then maybe 35-40pts, it wouldn't matter. Half because a single perils could make them explode and kill everyone around them, which honestly feels fluffy for a cultist casting spells they couldn't begin to comprehend completely.

That's not really a response to the points made. Warlocks are just a little bit worse than maelific lords. All other things are nearly even between them, with warlocks trading a worse smite for superior actual psychic powers. And no one is really using warlocks a great deal. Warlocks have a 4+ invuln and are -1 to be hit if they are using what is probably their best psychic power.

Quick - and probably dumb - question. If I cast Death Hex on a Daemon unit, do they lose their entire save? Is it stated somewhere that they have a 6+ save besides the 5++ (4++ on Tzeentch Daemons)?

 ochobits wrote:
Quick - and probably dumb - question. If I cast Death Hex on a Daemon unit, do they lose their entire save? Is it stated somewhere that they have a 6+ save besides the 5++ (4++ on Tzeentch Daemons)?

Most of them have a natural 6+ Armor save, some are different. So, yes, they likely still have a save. Refer to their data sheet to determine what it is.

Yay, Nurgle deamons are in the DG book(some might not be there). Here come the buffs

Everything but Heralds, apparently.

 Cephalobeard wrote:
Everything but Heralds, apparently.

He only said that because he was asked about the Start Collecting. GUO still might not be in it.

So I cracked and got the BCP sub. Here are the best chaos units according to the NOVA open results:

Brimstones ++++++++
Malefic Lords ++++++++
Magnus ++++++
Changeling ++++++
Aetaus'Rao'Keres +++++

Obliterators ++
cultists ++++
rhinos ++++
berserkers ++++
DP ++
10 Pinks in the 2nd place list??? wut


So yeah, guys who said Brimstones and Malefic lords aren't a problem... yeah, results speak for themselves. Every top 16 chaos list had at least 40 up to like 90+ brimstones and 3 to 13 malefics.
Big bird was in only one list but it was nr. 2 so I bumped him up accordingly. Changeling and Magnus were both in most of the lists.
So it seems that the top 2 are most likely targets for the nerf bat as they hate nerfing characters.

Brimstones aren't a problem. They're just the troop available that works with Changeling, and functions with the others.

40 Brimstones is literally 4 Troop Slots.

Malefic Lords are absolutely too strong, Brimstones are now totally fine.

Them simply being in lists does not indicate a problem.

 Cephalobeard wrote:
Brimstones aren't a problem. They're just the troop available that works with Changeling, and functions with the others.

40 Brimstones is literally 4 Troop Slots.

Malefic Lords are absolutely too strong, Brimstones are now totally fine.

Them simply being in lists does not indicate a problem.

I still think they'll be bumped up to 4 pts at least. Lords will probably go to 45-60.

I'm still shocked that the top list had 10 pinks


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also there is some weird tzeenth list with LoC, 15 Screamers, 2 burning chariot. 26th place(which is pretty good in a 200+ people tournament). I'm confused

 rvd1ofakind wrote:

 Cephalobeard wrote:
Brimstones aren't a problem. They're just the troop available that works with Changeling, and functions with the others.

40 Brimstones is literally 4 Troop Slots.

Malefic Lords are absolutely too strong, Brimstones are now totally fine.

Them simply being in lists does not indicate a problem.

I still think they'll be bumped up to 4 pts at least. Lords will probably go to 45-60.

I'm still shocked that the top list had 10 pinks


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also there is some weird tzeenth list with LoC, 15 Screamers, 2 burning chariot. 26th place(which is pretty good in a 200+ people tournament). I'm confused

Definitely not 4 pts, they would be useless at that point, just run cultists for the same price, more dakka, and the strategem to refill them. Brims are perfectly balanced right where they at, people just still in a bunch from the full smite 2 pt beasts

There wasn't a single list in top 16 without 40 of them. Dnno about you guys, but that screams "too good" for me.

Don't get me wrong - IG is way worse with conscripts. Those should be 5-6 pts at least

Having Pinks in a top list just shows that changing Brimstones won't solve the problem, but just shifts it to another unit

Ecdain wrote:

Definitely not 4 pts, they would be useless at that point

No
still the cheapest 4+, -1 to hit troop unit to get, problem is still there

Cultists would quite literally be immediately better, just like Ecdain stated. I have no idea how you believe you can even imply otherwise.

I can already have a blob of 4ppm models with a 5+ FNP that I can use CP on to immediately return to full strength and scout around the table.

You make a Brimstone 4ppm, you make me feel even better about using the now very likely, better cultists anyway.

Having Pinks doesn't really show anything, other than the fact that BRIMSTONES are not the problem unit, when you obviously don't get carried by them.

 Cephalobeard wrote:
Cultists would quite literally be immediately better, just like Ecdain stated. I have no idea how you believe you can even imply otherwise.

because this is the Chaos Daemon topic and not general Chaos thread
So no ObSec and no Stratagem

If the point is that a general Chaos army is better than a Chaos Daemon army, than I agree

I think the comparison someone made betwee eldar warlocks and malefic lords is highly misleading and disingenuous. While it is true that warlocks have much more useful powers, the limit to 1 of a power per army and warlock's incredibad smite makes them nearly useless after the first 1-2. Literally nobody is spamming warlocks, whereas I regularly see lists with entire supreme command detachments filled out with nothing but malefic lords in tourney-winning lists.

While I'm willing to concede that's technically correct, I don't agree that we can look at any of these units in a vacuum. If you change brimstones like that, you have to compare them with other units. Especially ones you can ally with.

Of course, but if we talk about a Chaos army, there are much more units to consider than just a Cultists instead of Horrors.

An individual close to one of the pretty major GTs on the East Coast was telling me they're seriously considering restricting FW units to one of a given unit per army... mostly as a way to break Malefic Lord Smite spam...

I tried to tell him that all that does is break Chaos' spine, because Astra Militarum can still run Astropath spam freely... and he suggested I take it up with the TOs.

The entire conversation really reminded me how reactive the community is when they perceive some things as broken, while allowing other elements to run wild. The whole Reece salt over select units, like still insisting Brimestones are too good (while running Lias Issodon), really makes me feel weird about the fact that what is apparently fine for one faction is anathema for another.

Do we really, as a community just want to see Imperials with everything, forever? No one panic-nerfed Assassin spam.

The Reece salt is real, for sure. The very notion of TO's and such "Defining Fun" to me is the most dangerous thing I've seen yet. Don't tell people whats fun, don't tell them what isn't fun, let them have fun and decide themselves.

To be fair, however, people are decrying Assassin Spam, Reece included.

People have a bias. They're not hiding it well.