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mrhappyface wrote: So going by how they worded the Tyranid FAQ to disinclude GSC units, I'd say (if they are going to FAQ it) they'll restrict it to none Heretic Astartes units. That would still mean that Daemon Lords would still get to make use of the stratagem though, I want to believe this makes Mr.Angry's 888pt price tag worth it.
yeah i do abit hope that'd do that. It's alittle lame to have your armies thing overly hi-jacked. I think the daemons book is some where up there in competive land from all the math hammer i've been doing, but seems CSM could jsut take all the good stuff, and give nothing back in return. which is abit lame.
"Take what you can, and give nothing back!"
Ghorros wrote: The moral of the story: Don't park your Imperial Knight in a field of Gretchin carrying power tools.
Marmatag wrote: All the while, my opponent is furious, throwing his codex on the floor, trying to slash his wrists with safety scissors.
mrhappyface wrote: So going by how they worded the Tyranid FAQ to disinclude GSC units, I'd say (if they are going to FAQ it) they'll restrict it to none Heretic Astartes units. That would still mean that Daemon Lords would still get to make use of the stratagem though, I want to believe this makes Mr.Angry's 888pt price tag worth it.
yeah i do abit hope that'd do that. It's alittle lame to have your armies thing overly hi-jacked. I think the daemons book is some where up there in competive land from all the math hammer i've been doing, but seems CSM could jsut take all the good stuff, and give nothing back in return. which is abit lame.
"Take what you can, and give nothing back!"
What I meant to say was that. Wasn't that how Imperium Soup has always been played? You get the best of sisters in Celestine, throw in IG, and Robute Gulliman or whatever is your favourite SM faction, and you still get to use all the strategems and units happily.
mrhappyface wrote: So going by how they worded the Tyranid FAQ to disinclude GSC units, I'd say (if they are going to FAQ it) they'll restrict it to none Heretic Astartes units. That would still mean that Daemon Lords would still get to make use of the stratagem though, I want to believe this makes Mr.Angry's 888pt price tag worth it.
yeah i do abit hope that'd do that. It's alittle lame to have your armies thing overly hi-jacked. I think the daemons book is some where up there in competive land from all the math hammer i've been doing, but seems CSM could jsut take all the good stuff, and give nothing back in return. which is abit lame.
"Take what you can, and give nothing back!"
What I meant to say was that. Wasn't that how Imperium Soup has always been played? You get the best of sisters in Celestine, throw in IG, and Robute Gulliman or whatever is your favourite SM faction, and you still get to use all the strategems and units happily.
Yes and no.
Yes you combine the armies and get to get great things for both.
however in this case it's abit more like you're robbing them of what makes them neat. For instance imperial guard as they are now can use thier own stratagems and relics on thier own character, but the space marine units can't use most or almost any of them. instead the space marines ahve to use thier own stuff. Where as the daemons as we sort of know them now you can basicly just take the best CSM list you have right now, space in some cost nothing daemons units, and take advantage of stratagems, and relics if you are willing to sacrifice your warlord.
So it's pretty different as in your example the IG stuff are the only ones who can use the IG stratagems, and the space marine stuff is the only ones that can use the space marine stratagems.
mrhappyface wrote: So going by how they worded the Tyranid FAQ to disinclude GSC units, I'd say (if they are going to FAQ it) they'll restrict it to none Heretic Astartes units. That would still mean that Daemon Lords would still get to make use of the stratagem though, I want to believe this makes Mr.Angry's 888pt price tag worth it.
Not really a big nerf... in fact, I'd argue it's more viable in many cases to deepstrick that 'letterbomb, flamers, Thirsters, et el, as opposed to Magtarion.
Make your opponent deal with the DS'ers, while Magtarion mosey up the board uncontested.
How do people feel about Baleful sword vs Rod of Sorcery on the LoC?
Extra smite range is nice as well as the ability to take the +1 to casting relic, but the sword bringing -3 AP means you'll often negate enemy saves completely. What's throwing me off is the -1 to WS that comes with the sword.
knas wrote: How do people feel about Baleful sword vs Rod of Sorcery on the LoC?
Extra smite range is nice as well as the ability to take the +1 to casting relic, but the sword bringing -3 AP means you'll often negate enemy saves completely. What's throwing me off is the -1 to WS that comes with the sword.
Baleful sword:
When you do the math, you will find out that the Sword is better against everything with a 3+ or better Save and also against everything T6+. The Staff only becomes better against things with good invulnerables (4+ and such) with low T or against mass infantry. The -1 to hit will compensate with the +1S and -1DS easily and make it better.
Staff:
This thing has just 2 advantages really showing. First you can take the staff of +1 to cast Smite, but arguably you will most often take the 3++ anyway. Second you can cast smite outside the range of a psyker and circumvent the deny of the enemy. This can be nice, but I think you will always go pretty close with the LoC. Otherwise you would waste his melee capabilities and just a magic battery for 330 points is way too expensive.
Conclusion:
Take the sword most of the time and also use it!
Ps: If you use more than one LoC, you could very well give the second one the staff and the +1 to smite and +1 to cast first spell. This will increase your odds of doing D6 wounds with smite to about 55%!
knas wrote: How do people feel about Baleful sword vs Rod of Sorcery on the LoC?
Extra smite range is nice as well as the ability to take the +1 to casting relic, but the sword bringing -3 AP means you'll often negate enemy saves completely. What's throwing me off is the -1 to WS that comes with the sword.
It's a hard choice to behonest??/
You don't have to take either as well.
For me i'd take niether or the sword.
Neither is nice as keeping the big bird cheap feels right. Lets him just bank on his smiting and maybe alittle mele damage later, but... man with that sword and a herald in toe along with the warlord trait for -1 wound and the impossible robe. He's a tougher kairos fateweaver in melee.
ALso with gaze of fate having more d6 damage abilities is pretty big, as gaze can provide some decent damage insurance.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/01/11 09:19:48
knas wrote: How do people feel about Baleful sword vs Rod of Sorcery on the LoC?
Extra smite range is nice as well as the ability to take the +1 to casting relic, but the sword bringing -3 AP means you'll often negate enemy saves completely. What's throwing me off is the -1 to WS that comes with the sword.
It's a hard choice to behonest??/
You don't have to take either as well.
For me i'd take niether or the sword.
Neither is nice as keeping the big bird cheap feels right. Lets him just bank on his smiting and maybe alittle mele damage later, but... man with that sword and a herald in toe along with the warlord trait for -1 wound and the impossible robe. He's a tougher kairos fateweaver in melee.
ALso with gaze of fate having more d6 damage abilities is pretty big, as gaze can provide some decent damage insurance.
Imho you should always spend the +10 points on one of the upgrades. I don't see why this should make a 320 points model to costly.
knas wrote: How do people feel about Baleful sword vs Rod of Sorcery on the LoC?
Extra smite range is nice as well as the ability to take the +1 to casting relic, but the sword bringing -3 AP means you'll often negate enemy saves completely. What's throwing me off is the -1 to WS that comes with the sword.
It's a hard choice to behonest??/
You don't have to take either as well.
For me i'd take niether or the sword.
Neither is nice as keeping the big bird cheap feels right. Lets him just bank on his smiting and maybe alittle mele damage later, but... man with that sword and a herald in toe along with the warlord trait for -1 wound and the impossible robe. He's a tougher kairos fateweaver in melee.
ALso with gaze of fate having more d6 damage abilities is pretty big, as gaze can provide some decent damage insurance.
Imho you should always spend the +10 points on one of the upgrades. I don't see why this should make a 320 points model to costly.
if the 10 points make the difference between wings ona daemon prince or an extra exalted flamer. than i'd probably consider it.
In fact in the list (https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/748372.page#9780206) i'm working on it cost me 2 blood letters to take the sword ,and i wonder is it worth it??? 2 blood letters that will almost always make combat every game or a sword that has a chance of making combat... hmmmm
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/01/11 11:53:41
As far as I can tell the consensus is that the LoC can be considered to be at least somewhat competative while Kairos is hardly considered at al. Still, the difference is 40 points which buys d3 CP, one spell and deny/turn, acces to a lot of spells, 36" smite and a S8 D6 dam weapon. Seems quite decent doesn't it? What am I overlooking?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/01/11 12:18:03
Fiery the angels fell; deep thunder rolled around their shores; burning with the fires of Orc.
Cilithan wrote: As far as I can tell the consensus is that the LoC can be considered to be at least somewhat competative while Kairos is hardly considered at al. Still, the difference is 40 points which buys d3 CP, one spell and deny/turn, acces to a lot of spells, 36" smite and a S8 D6 dam weapon. Seems quite decent doesn't it? What am I overlooking?
Kairos can't take the robe relic (no ++3 save) and has a fixed warlord trait. (No perils on 1 1).
knas wrote: How do people feel about Baleful sword vs Rod of Sorcery on the LoC?
Extra smite range is nice as well as the ability to take the +1 to casting relic, but the sword bringing -3 AP means you'll often negate enemy saves completely. What's throwing me off is the -1 to WS that comes with the sword.
It's a hard choice to behonest??/
You don't have to take either as well.
For me i'd take niether or the sword.
Neither is nice as keeping the big bird cheap feels right. Lets him just bank on his smiting and maybe alittle mele damage later, but... man with that sword and a herald in toe along with the warlord trait for -1 wound and the impossible robe. He's a tougher kairos fateweaver in melee.
ALso with gaze of fate having more d6 damage abilities is pretty big, as gaze can provide some decent damage insurance.
Imho you should always spend the +10 points on one of the upgrades. I don't see why this should make a 320 points model to costly.
if the 10 points make the difference between wings ona daemon prince or an extra exalted flamer. than i'd probably consider it.
In fact in the list (https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/748372.page#9780206) i'm working on it cost me 2 blood letters to take the sword ,and i wonder is it worth it??? 2 blood letters that will almost always make combat every game or a sword that has a chance of making combat... hmmmm
If your LoC does not make it into combat, he will never justify his points. So why even bother taking one? Imho you should also beat up something in melee with such an expensive non-shooting model.
knas wrote: How do people feel about Baleful sword vs Rod of Sorcery on the LoC?
Extra smite range is nice as well as the ability to take the +1 to casting relic, but the sword bringing -3 AP means you'll often negate enemy saves completely. What's throwing me off is the -1 to WS that comes with the sword.
It's a hard choice to behonest??/
You don't have to take either as well.
For me i'd take niether or the sword.
Neither is nice as keeping the big bird cheap feels right. Lets him just bank on his smiting and maybe alittle mele damage later, but... man with that sword and a herald in toe along with the warlord trait for -1 wound and the impossible robe. He's a tougher kairos fateweaver in melee.
ALso with gaze of fate having more d6 damage abilities is pretty big, as gaze can provide some decent damage insurance.
Imho you should always spend the +10 points on one of the upgrades. I don't see why this should make a 320 points model to costly.
if the 10 points make the difference between wings ona daemon prince or an extra exalted flamer. than i'd probably consider it.
In fact in the list (https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/748372.page#9780206) i'm working on it cost me 2 blood letters to take the sword ,and i wonder is it worth it??? 2 blood letters that will almost always make combat every game or a sword that has a chance of making combat... hmmmm
If your LoC does not make it into combat, he will never justify his points. So why even bother taking one? Imho you should also beat up something in melee with such an expensive non-shooting model.
Man internet folks always get waay up your butt if you dont say "man what you said is right. I like your thing."
1st: odds are most things in your army won't make thier points back as they will die before they are given the chance to do. And since not all of your units are gin a share the enemy army evenly, odds are some units might double thier points and other might not make any of thier points back in the sense of killing. It's the nature of the game
2nd:I did say I'd take the sword or neither.
3rd neither is a fine enough option as the staff of change still exist and can still kill things, but what is the most reliable part of his kit is that he can cast 2 or 3 spells and get some mortal wounds of every turn he stays up.
4th: From there it depends on how likely, you are to get a lord of change into melee. If so how likely is that that target is something like a land raider or leman russ where you are super stoked to get his melee attacks. How likely are you to take your LoC into melee to go do abit of feisty cuffs woth Magnus the red or mortarion. Heck or even risk a tussle with lots girlymon. As the LOC is most likely to be mixing it up with rather soft fair. If say the staff is probably gonna do the job just fine for stabbing at various forms of elite infantry.
I think when you consider all that. The sword is abit vestigial in the it won't really do a whole ton for you. So maybe some times you might consider spend those 10 points else where
Edit as far him making his points back he's got pretty good odds on d6 smites and infernal gates, and he can pick characters out with bolt of change. He is durable enough to get a turn 2 as long as you definitly dont deep strike the guy into rapid fire range as those sorts of weapons are his weakness.
His turn two is better as now you are close enough to force infernal gate way on your opponent, and if he spread his stuff you might have a nice hole in enemy line where you can make a good charge. This might be a good place for said sword, but what if your opponent brought nothing but infantry sauads?? Now the sword is really getting mileage there. Against marines your just trading 2s to hit for 2s to wound (with a herald) and another ap. Which probably doesn't even math out to a whole wounds worth of difference.
So maybe just consider neither. He's rather strong as is and it might effect your list. In the list I linked I take the blade, but i wonder... is it worth 2 blood letters.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/01/11 13:13:09
A model doesn't need to make it into combat to justify it's points. If by getting deleted he lets other guys make it to the other side then that in itself is good, if he received an amount of fire to go down that justifies his cost.
Not saying that this is the case since i know little of daemons, just wanted to point out that "can get deleted turn 1 and never make his points back, so it is a bad model" means that no model short of a Mortarion is good.
Spoletta wrote: A model doesn't need to make it into combat to justify it's points. If by getting deleted he lets other guys make it to the other side then that in itself is good, if he received an amount of fire to go down that justifies his cost.
Not saying that this is the case since i know little of daemons, just wanted to point out that "can get deleted turn 1 and never make his points back, so it is a bad model" means that no model short of a Mortarion is good.
The whole concept of units "making their points back" is a little misleading in the first place. Especially since, unless you table your opponent, your army as a whole has failed to make its points back.
I like the idea of a robed LoC running behind a bloodletter bomb headed by Skarbrand, though. Feel like most people will prioritize the bloodthirster character in front of them over the big bird in the distance. And Skarbrand should still do at least some work while he's alive.
Of course he will. Most everything in 8th will die if it gets focused. Generally speaking, offense has outpaced defense in this edition so that if you want any one thing dead, you can pretty often make it dead. I still think he will be worth taking as this only goes so far. Opponents will be hard pressed to deal with a bloodletter bomb, Skarbrand, and a LoC all in one or two turns.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/01/11 14:41:22
Raulengrin wrote: The whole concept of units "making their points back" is a little misleading in the first place. Especially since, unless you table your opponent, your army as a whole has failed to make its points back.
I like the idea of a robed LoC running behind a bloodletter bomb headed by Skarbrand, though. Feel like most people will prioritize the bloodthirster character in front of them over the big bird in the distance. And Skarbrand should still do at least some work while he's alive.
The "idea" of a LoC is equally misleading, though. What does it do once it's on the table?
At the absolute most, using smite + melee, it kills a grand total of 11 Infantry models. Realistically, if it's running behind things, it will only be within range of a screen for the first two turns without being deep struck.
What is it doing?
It has little offense, it's bulk is pointless if it isn't actively doing anything.
The answer to any of the jobs you could assign a LoC is better assigned to either more troops, which end up having more bulk than the LoC across multiple bodies which nullify high STR high D weapons, and if the job is to do damage, it's better suited across other units. 2 units of 5/6 Flamers cost about as much as a LoC, use the same CP to deep strike, and will do more damage in a single turn than a LoC will do across an entire game.
Raulengrin wrote: The whole concept of units "making their points back" is a little misleading in the first place. Especially since, unless you table your opponent, your army as a whole has failed to make its points back.
I like the idea of a robed LoC running behind a bloodletter bomb headed by Skarbrand, though. Feel like most people will prioritize the bloodthirster character in front of them over the big bird in the distance. And Skarbrand should still do at least some work while he's alive.
The "idea" of a LoC is equally misleading, though. What does it do once it's on the table?
At the absolute most, using smite + melee, it kills a grand total of 11 Infantry models. Realistically, if it's running behind things, it will only be within range of a screen for the first two turns without being deep struck.
What is it doing?
It has little offense, it's bulk is pointless if it isn't actively doing anything.
The answer to any of the jobs you could assign a LoC is better assigned to either more troops, which end up having more bulk than the LoC across multiple bodies which nullify high STR high D weapons, and if the job is to do damage, it's better suited across other units. 2 units of 5/6 Flamers cost about as much as a LoC, use the same CP to deep strike, and will do more damage in a single turn than a LoC will do across an entire game.
I think you are too extreme. It can also deny and cast very reliably with +2 and can draw a lot of fire with the 3++ away from flamers and screamers. Also with infernal gate out could do a lot more than 11 wounds on infantry.
I don't think I'm being "extreme" I think I'm being realistic and specific.
I gave direct examples and wrote out only "Melee + Smite" and did not mention Gateway because it's high variance.
This is a tactics discussion, my friend. It's the competitive value of the model. There is no room for feelings or pedantic "it isn't THAT bad" comments. It just is what it is.
I own 4 of them, with the new model. I WANT them to be good, to be better. As it stands, they are what they are. If we're discussing their tactical value, we must do so honestly.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/01/11 16:14:46
Daemons: 5000+ points
CSM/Black Legion: 5000+ points
Deathwatch/Knights: 5000 points
