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No, i wouldn't pay that price for it. I don't pay 300 for swarmlord that does much more than that.

There in lies the problem, yeah.

The role the model fits must justify the points. A LoC needed more love, something more fluffy. Hell, that they given them Magnus smites for 1d6-2d6 they instantly would of been worth it, even without a price drop.

Again, GW has their reasons for whatever they did, but I don't believe they did enough. It just doesn't do anything special.

2.36 damage a turn from smite
1.44 damage a turn from bol5 of change
1.643 on just infernal gate on a single target.

Mathing it out that's 5.443 damage a turn. Woth a 1 cp a turn investment.

So being charitable lets assume we want to target T8 tanks with our attack and compare it to exalted flamers (who out base eldar dark reapers and such):

At only ranged the LoC is only pulling down .0165 damage a turn with psykic powers. Which is pretty low

Comparing that to exalted flamers who out base dark reapers and crimson hunters for damage against vehicles most the time. We get .0296 damage/pts a turn you arnt moving, and .022 in turns where you do move. As the first turn you either won't be In Range or need to be summoned/deep strike in thats a the first tuen youll move and the 2nd turn your stand still (most likely) get you to a two turn average of: .0246 damage (dark reaper average anti tank damage a turn)

Now the LoC can take a baleful sword and assuming out flying greater daemon can make combat turn two, his 2nd turn damage/pts against our T8 tank (getting buffed by a herald). Puts you at .0266 damge/pts, and averaging out now at .0215 damage over two turns..


So in think the Loc does alright fur a big durable model whose tanking a large chunk of fire power for your army. Mind you it's not super realistic to adds your gonna be land s mites on tanks in turn 1, but turn 2 you can get him there pretty realisticly with his fly, and more so his infernal gate becomes much easier to set up come turn 2 as you'll be close enough to pick your closest model of choice, and as we only calculated for only hitting one unit that means your potential damage goes up quite abit.

We also didn't consider his turn 1 charge possibilities which I though about more on, and it's actually decently possible. With gaze of fate providing an out side reroll, and access to a CP reroll the LoC can reroll one or all of his charge dice. I don't think it's amazingly realistic as a pick reroll 1 or both 9" charge is only 50%, but you have a 50/50 shot of getting him in quick

So looking at that pretty holistic review. I think the Loc whilr alittle low damage is close enough that his high durability can make him a viable choice. I give him the a rating of "good."

 Cephalobeard wrote:
I don't think I'm being "extreme" I think I'm being realistic and specific.

I gave direct examples and wrote out only "Melee + Smite" and did not mention Gateway because it's high variance.

This is a tactics discussion, my friend. It's the competitive value of the model. There is no room for feelings or pedantic "it isn't THAT bad" comments. It just is what it is.

I own 4 of them, with the new model. I WANT them to be good, to be better. As it stands, they are what they are. If we're discussing their tactical value, we must do so honestly.

There is a difference between totally useless and amazing. I think you can run a LoC even in a tournament list with success. But we discussed this already.

The Lord of Change seems purpose built to be a Warlord and take the tanky trait plus relic to be an anchor for your army. Its' melee is alright, it's a great psyker, it's mobile and with the right combo it is incredibly hard to kill. I think it's worth it, you just gotta prioritize targets for it.

I'm really liking the look of the Burning Chariot. For its price, 6 S6 AP-3 2D attacks and 3 S5 AP-1 D1 attacks in combat is nasty, and the S5 AP-2 pistol flamer (it can shoot it while in combat) really adds up the damage. It'd pretty capably wipe out entire Primaris units by itself (not in one turn of course) provided it doesn't take too much damage moving up.

We'll agree to disagree on the model and it's usefulness instead of dragging out the argument, then. As you said, it's already been discussed.

Time will tell. I'd be happy to be wrong.

As far as Burning Chariots go, I agree they're quite good. Not sure if it outweighs the Character boon of an Exalted, but they're worth trying now.

Yes and to be fair I agree that it could be way better. You would certainly always take Magnus instead, if you play max power. However, since the Primarchs will likely lose the deep strike strat, the LoC might find a niche.

Yeah. Could be. I intend on testing them. I'm not going to completely discount it off the bat. My expectations are low, so hopefully i'm pleasantly surprised and the model makes me kick the dirt, walk back here and report how silly I was once my Codex comes in.

The Codex is making me seriously consider a Bloodthirster for the first time since Traitor Legions made me shelve my Daemonkin, though I'm not sure what role he could play that Skarbrand wouldn't do better other than giving my Daemons higher leadership.

It makes me consider Khorne princes.

Run a CSM Battalion of a Prince or Two, tons of cultists, then a Daemon Battalion of 1-2 Princes, Herald, then tons of Letters and spend 1 CP to give a Prince the Talisman of Burning Blood and take the Khorne relic mega axe. Proceed to blend.

 andysonic1 wrote:
The Codex is making me seriously consider a Bloodthirster for the first time since Traitor Legions made me shelve my Daemonkin, though I'm not sure what role he could play that Skarbrand wouldn't do better other than giving my Daemons higher leadership.

The daemon prince with skullreaver has saddly killed all my blood thirster desire. that thing can hide behind all your chaffe, and then fly out and split a knight almost clean in half doing an average of something like 21 wounds to a knight in a single round of combat on average. All for 180 points yummy!!!

mmimzie wrote:

 andysonic1 wrote:
The Codex is making me seriously consider a Bloodthirster for the first time since Traitor Legions made me shelve my Daemonkin, though I'm not sure what role he could play that Skarbrand wouldn't do better other than giving my Daemons higher leadership.

The daemon prince with skullreaver has saddly killed all my blood thirster desire. that thing can hide behind all your chaffe, and then fly out and split a knight almost clean in half doing an average of something like 21 wounds to a knight in a single round of combat on average. All for 180 points yummy!!!

Dat axe is pretty insane. I only have one Prince and I wanted him for my CSM side so he could give rerolls to both Battalions, like Caphalobeard said. Maybe I'll just bite the bullet and go Daemons Prince, and take Dark Apostles + Exalted Champ combo instead.

 andysonic1 wrote:

mmimzie wrote:

 andysonic1 wrote:
The Codex is making me seriously consider a Bloodthirster for the first time since Traitor Legions made me shelve my Daemonkin, though I'm not sure what role he could play that Skarbrand wouldn't do better other than giving my Daemons higher leadership.

The daemon prince with skullreaver has saddly killed all my blood thirster desire. that thing can hide behind all your chaffe, and then fly out and split a knight almost clean in half doing an average of something like 21 wounds to a knight in a single round of combat on average. All for 180 points yummy!!!

Dat axe is pretty insane. I only have one Prince and I wanted him for my CSM side so he could give rerolls to both Battalions, like Caphalobeard said. Maybe I'll just bite the bullet and go Daemons Prince, and take Dark Apostles + Exalted Champ combo instead.

haha yeah i know how you feel, but many just imagining that daemon prince flying over and just ripping into anything seems pretty awesome. He can even do alright if you throw him at hordes with the mortal wounds.

So GUO how to kit him out???

Bell vs Sword

The bell i was one that thing for a while, but that only seems good if you are running a almost all nurgle daemons army, as then you can bring a lot of your stuff back and get good mileage out of the thing in one or two turns.

The Sword seems nice and killy and definitly seems the way to go in a mixed daemons list after some further pondering on it. The damage is nice, and virulence blessing loves that d6 damage.

Blade VS plail.

Blade wise if you are taking the bell you really want that blade. it's +1 to cast will continue to give you some of what you get out of the flail, while it also lets you keep a respectible melee profile. That +1 to cast on virulence bless means even more if you are swinging around a bilesword as well.

Flail this one i think is more of a toss up if you have the sword. As now you are just weighing the chances of +1 to cast vs the flails attack. The +1 to cast can go on things like virulence blessing and nurgles rott to recoupe what you lose from the flail.

Spells:

while they vary from game to game i think there might be atleast a few spell that he needs to take.

Nurgles rot, i think is sort of required on the GUO to help him recoupe his points, and the bile blade can help get you over that 7 casting value more reliably. This spell for me feels like the GUO pay off.

Viruelence blessing in the same way with that bile blade you can more reliably use this ability, and i think if you plan to take this spell you really want the blade. As you'll be casting this more offten than something like nurgles rot that is range prohibited.

Miasma is good, but i think since the GUO is gonna be lumbering up to the enemy. You really want a poxbringer to cast this on your GUO from afar so he can be out of dispell range. It's also easy to cast so if you bring the flail this might be a spell you take on your GUO.

Shirvel pox is great if you are running mixed daemons, but again its pretty easy to get off so i'd leave this to a flail GUO or a poxbringer.

The other spells to me don't rate, atleast not for a GUO to cast.

People have got blinders on so focused on damage. The point of a LoC from the few games I've run with one is to be a model that can't be ignored because of the massive disruption potential when he gets in medium to close range, and yet makes a gakky target for your opponent because he takes way too much shooting and other resources to effectively remove.

If you're taking a LoC for damage and not for the ability to make the enemy rethink the entire game plan they had, I don't know what to tell you

And Soul Grinders are still crap, am I right? Weak shooting (with -1 to hit due to heavy weapon profile) and too costly for what it does.

arhurt wrote:
And Soul Grinders are still crap, am I right? Weak shooting (with -1 to hit due to heavy weapon profile) and too costly for what it does.

+1. I was excited to see defilers get that huge points drop, I was hoping SG would get a similar treatment, or at least something more to differentiate it.

9breaker wrote:

arhurt wrote:
And Soul Grinders are still crap, am I right? Weak shooting (with -1 to hit due to heavy weapon profile) and too costly for what it does.

+1. I was excited to see defilers get that huge points drop, I was hoping SG would get a similar treatment, or at least something more to differentiate it.

I'm not sure what you mean here - they're differentiated pretty well right now because of the price drop. With the price drop a Defiler is ... well ... it;s ok. The Souldgrinder is a gigantic flaming bag of dog poop. Very different. See? Now you can be happy.

We should also consider Karanak if we want to negate enemy's psy phase. For just 70 points, that doggy grants two denies each turn.

And if that's not enough. Add on the relic, plus a few units of flesh hounds and you should have tons of denial during the psychic phase.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Opps, I meant to post on this thread. posted on the CSM tactics thread instead.

A more important thing to consider now. With the new daemon codex and the new nifty deep strike strategems, is a full melee army (whether Khorne or Slanaash) now a viable option?

It hasn't been so far, but that was because horde bubble wrap and the power of shooting made melee armies run into major problems trying to get to the really juicy stuff at the back of an opponents army.

Now, we can deep strike in 60 bloodletters for 3 CP, who can do 120 attacks. That would likely clear away most chaff while remaining a substantial threat that still must be dealt with.

The rest of the melee army can then run up the board as per normal. The key thing is that 60 bloodletters barely cost 420 points. That's less than 20% of a 2000 point army. So, you can load the rest of your army with all sorts of other melee units, scary characters and such.

Another tactic I was thinking of was the multi wave bloodletter bomb. Imagine a 1st wave of 60 bloodletters to clear the chaff, with a second wave of another 60 blood letters waiting in deepstrike reserve to come in on the second turn. So, maybe the first wave of 60 bloodletters gets shot up and destroyed after clearing the chaff. But now, there is no longer any bubble wrap left to stop the second wave of 60 letters deep striking in to wreck havoc.

You need 120 bloodletters and 6 cp. But the whole thing only cost 840 points, which is still less than half your army points for a typical 2000 point army.

So will anyone be fielding the changeling now that it's been nerfed?

The model itself feels a bit awkwardly sized now for what it does.

I think full melee armies will still have issues unless they have a lot of speed and enough units that fly. With those in the mix you can still chase fast units around the board, threaten peripherally placed objectives, and deal with flyers.

 knas wrote:
So will anyone be fielding the changeling now that it's been nerfed?

The model itself feels a bit awkwardly sized now for what it does.

It's still decent for adding another layer to screens.

If you're rocking a double battalion and still just jamming brimstones for tax, then you get 60 Models with 6+/6++/6+++. Not as good as they were, but not awful.

 Cephalobeard wrote:

 knas wrote:
So will anyone be fielding the changeling now that it's been nerfed?

The model itself feels a bit awkwardly sized now for what it does.

It's still decent for adding another layer to screens.

If you're rocking a double battalion and still just jamming brimstones for tax, then you get 60 Models with 6+/6++/6+++. Not as good as they were, but not awful.

True it adds a lot of value to brimms and I guess it's still a psyker, so it could be useful to take instead of a second herald. Much harder choice though since you could take 30 brimms or 20 blues for the same price.

Am I overreacting, or is the Feculent Gnarlmaw incredible to the point of auto-include? +2 to saves to all units within (I don't think it says 'wholly within') 7"? Unkillable mortal wound generator to protect whatever you put there ... like obliterators... or to just add serious battlefield control

I generally think most of the things I've read are well-balanced but this seems like it just begs for CSM/DG abuse.

is not +2 save is like +2 cover.... so for demons covers mean almost nothing unless you have some kind of armor save. It is useful with CSM (obliterators).

 Commissar_Rex wrote:
Am I overreacting, or is the Feculent Gnarlmaw incredible to the point of auto-include? +2 to saves to all units within (I don't think it says 'wholly within') 7"? Unkillable mortal wound generator to protect whatever you put there ... like obliterators... or to just add serious battlefield control

I generally think most of the things I've read are well-balanced but this seems like it just begs for CSM/DG abuse.

+2 to armour saves not invul, I believe. So 4+ armour saves for your daemons against AP- weapons.

every daemon has a 6+ armor save, which means it affects everything, bringing any daemon to 4+/5++(/5+++ for nurgle) which is pretty huge.

However, I did say that my main concern was with obliterator shenanigans. If an FAQ does stop this (as it should... 0+ obliterators? uh...) then it's not broken, but still a very powerful and unkillable aura machine we'll probably see a lot of

 Commissar_Rex wrote:
every daemon has a 6+ armor save, which means it affects everything, bringing any daemon to 4+/5++(/5+++ for nurgle) which is pretty huge.

However, I did say that my main concern was with obliterator shenanigans. If an FAQ does stop this (as it should... 0+ obliterators? uh...) then it's not broken, but still a very powerful and unkillable aura machine we'll probably see a lot of

I'm pretty sure a save can never be better than a 2, or everything fails on a 1. Either one of those rules prevents this kind of sillyness, though it would still take a lot of -AP to chew through Oblits under that cover.

 andysonic1 wrote:

 Commissar_Rex wrote:
every daemon has a 6+ armor save, which means it affects everything, bringing any daemon to 4+/5++(/5+++ for nurgle) which is pretty huge.

However, I did say that my main concern was with obliterator shenanigans. If an FAQ does stop this (as it should... 0+ obliterators? uh...) then it's not broken, but still a very powerful and unkillable aura machine we'll probably see a lot of

I'm pretty sure a save can never be better than a 2, or everything fails on a 1. Either one of those rules prevents this kind of sillyness, though it would still take a lot of -AP to chew through Oblits under that cover.

You're right, a roll of 1 always fails regardless of modifiers. I thought it was a result of 1 always fails. So basically all this would do is mean that oblits ignore AP-2 or weaker. Very good, but not quite broken.

Sorry for fearmongering?

The answer is the second one - a roll of one always fails, but saves can be better than 2+. It only matters for soaking up fire from high AP weapons, but that's still really good for a unit like Oblits. Shooting at those Oblits most guys will figure out that they either want AP- or really high AP, but that's still an effective deterrent for a lot of, say, AP -2 guns that would normally be pretty effective.

Yes. The Gnarlmaws are bonkers good.