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kaptin_Blacksquigg wrote:
Hey,

I've seem a few people here and on other threads saying Screamers are good now, but I just don't get it. They are expensive, relatively easy to kill, ok in combat (good attacks but only 3 at 4+ to hit) and no easy access to to-hit bonuses. Sure they are reasonably fast, but now we have both deep striking and summoning to bring units in, that's not a bid deal.

So am I missing something?

From offensive stats you can try to compare Screamers with Sanguinary Guard. The 3A on 4+ are actually better than the 2A on 3+ from the SG. They also do almost the same amount of damage, but are much faster and have S6-8. Actually this makes them pretty good against Transporters, Tanks and Flyers (Stormraven etc.).
They are of course glass cannons even with the 4++, but you probably can keep them alive quite easily with the Stratagem with +1 to Inv Save.

I think overall they are pretty good, however, the other Tzeentch units outshine them a bit. Ex. Flamers, Flamers and Pink Horrors are so good now. But the latter have to come via deep strike, while the Screamers do not profit a lot from ds.

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
Yea, forgot to mention I was talking about (2 boxes of) Plague Bearers. More than likely, they camp or screen, so Instrument or Banners aren't necessary. But if I combine them into a single 20 unit, I just don't know how I want to build the kit!

You often want to deploy plague bearers in units of 30 for the -1 to hit.

If you're doing mono Nurgle you'll likely need to be moving if you want to be dealing any damage. The instrument is quite useful, especially on slow 5 move plague bearers where that +1 often makes a difference. As for the banner it's hard to calculate it since it depends on how often you take leadership tests, if you do get a 1 though you'll likely have made it's cost back. It also gives you the option of upgrading it with the banner stratagem which can help reliably take out 2W units.

Many people play WYSIWYG so be prepared that some folk might complain if you're proxying instruments and banners are normal troops.

Is there any reason to take a Soul Grinder anymore? Without more wounds and/or toughness they are extremely expensive for their lackluster performance.

Two Skull cannons cost less and will do more damage on the move.....and potentially in combat.

So with the Daemon <Allegiance> and the CSM <Mark of Chaos> keywords, would building a E.G. <Khorne> army / detachment be possible? Specifically in the context of building one brigade detachment, for example, comprised of both CSM and Daemon units united under Khorne. Granted, CSM would lose any legion bonuses but it would give you a wider scope of units to pick from when building an army.

Also I suppose it would be possible, and perhaps wiser, to build, for example, a World Eaters detachment then a Daemons of Khorne detachment to capitalize on the legion bonuses.

eternalxfl wrote:
So with the Daemon <Allegiance> and the CSM <Mark of Chaos> keywords, would building a E.G. <Khorne> army / detachment be possible? Specifically in the context of building one brigade detachment, for example, comprised of both CSM and Daemon units united under Khorne. Granted, CSM would lose any legion bonuses but it would give you a wider scope of units to pick from when building an army.

Also I suppose it would be possible, and perhaps wiser, to build, for example, a World Eaters detachment then a Daemons of Khorne detachment to capitalize on the legion bonuses.

Some of the stuff is "faction" keyword not just keyword in the codex so just keep an eye on those.

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
Yea, forgot to mention I was talking about (2 boxes of) Plague Bearers. More than likely, they camp or screen, so Instrument or Banners aren't necessary. But if I combine them into a single 20 unit, I just don't know how I want to build the kit!

Instruments and banners only matter on big 30 man squads. Other I don't think I'd care much for the banner.

eternalxfl wrote:
So with the Daemon <Allegiance> and the CSM <Mark of Chaos> keywords, would building a E.G. <Khorne> army / detachment be possible? Specifically in the context of building one brigade detachment, for example, comprised of both CSM and Daemon units united under Khorne. Granted, CSM would lose any legion bonuses but it would give you a wider scope of units to pick from when building an army.

Also I suppose it would be possible, and perhaps wiser, to build, for example, a World Eaters detachment then a Daemons of Khorne detachment to capitalize on the legion bonuses.

You're better off with two detachments instead of the brigade. I personally am running three Battalion detachments: World Eaters (berzerkers), Khorne Daemons (daemon prince + bloodletter bomb), and Renegade and Heretics (cultists, backfield deeps strike deny). I've beaten some other semi-competitive lists of Blood Angels and Tau because the shear mass of bodies moving up the board coupled with the Bomb splitting enemy fire is a great combo. I'm currently looking at ways to put more pressure on my opponent faster so the rest of my army can move up unmolested. I'll either add more Bloodletters for a second Bomb, or add Bloodcrushers, or Mutilators, or something to boost the anvil.

 sfshilo wrote:

eternalxfl wrote:
So with the Daemon <Allegiance> and the CSM <Mark of Chaos> keywords, would building a E.G. <Khorne> army / detachment be possible? Specifically in the context of building one brigade detachment, for example, comprised of both CSM and Daemon units united under Khorne. Granted, CSM would lose any legion bonuses but it would give you a wider scope of units to pick from when building an army.

Also I suppose it would be possible, and perhaps wiser, to build, for example, a World Eaters detachment then a Daemons of Khorne detachment to capitalize on the legion bonuses.

Some of the stuff is "faction" keyword not just keyword in the codex so just keep an eye on those.

I would make 2 separate lists, 1 for the WE, 1 for the Khorne Daemons. You won't get access to either faction's stratagems if you put them both in 1 brigade, so there's no benefits whatsoever in doing so.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Ecdain wrote:

 whembly wrote:
So... the new Bloodthirster of Insensate Rage... with armour of scorn...

With the DS strategem...

Dude.

With the "Deathbringer" (Each unmodified hit roll of 6 made for this model in the Fight phase scores 2 hits instead of 1) + Unstoppable Ferocity + new weapon mode "Sweeping Blow":

Number of attacks = 14 (unwounded thirster).

Any natural 6s is auto 2-hits.

I would agree with you but incessant rage is the worst BT strictly due to the degrade he has, he loses attacks AND WS
Really hurt his damage..

The new ds stratagem actually fixed this problem, IR BT is a Daemon you'd want to bring to close combat immediately to fully utilize his power. So if you bring him, make sure you save the ds slot for him. However, point for point, I'd rather bring Skarbrand though. It's true he can't fly, but he doesn't need to when he's already within charge range. Moreover, Skarbrand's number of attacks actually increases the more he takes damage, so you can be certain that he'll pay back every single point you paid for him.

Have any of you skull collectors figured out a way to use summoning to your advantage? Every time I have a Khorn character standing around summoning I feel like he got in trouble and isn't allowed to go chase skulls with the rest of the kids. I really want it to be amazing, but with a Khorn only daemon army it feels awkward due to our characters never wanting to be standing still.

The only time summoning doesn't feel awkward to me is when they are sitting around in close combat and need some backup.

Apologies if this has been brought up earlier, but has anyone noticed the ranged benefits of the Crimson Crown?
The Crimson Crown:
Each time you make a wound roll of 6+ for a friendly KHORNE DAEMON unit within 6" of the bearer, that model may immediately make an extra attack using the same weapon at the same target (sic)

so, for ranged weapons, this generates an entire extra attack (full shots) with the weapon. Like, for my Khorne laser Decimator with 10 shots, each roll of 6 generates 5 more shots. Get's even dumber with things like Lord of Skulls or Kytans.

Seems like something they'll catch in a FAQ (change to fight phase), but interesting nontheless.

Corn wrote:
Have any of you skull collectors figured out a way to use summoning to your advantage? Every time I have a Khorn character standing around summoning I feel like he got in trouble and isn't allowed to go chase skulls with the rest of the kids. I really want it to be amazing, but with a Khorn only daemon army it feels awkward due to our characters never wanting to be standing still.

The only time summoning doesn't feel awkward to me is when they are sitting around in close combat and need some backup.

the only summonming i can see being maybe useful is summoning tzeentch daemons. They shoot and tend to have decently rang. you could probably also summon a skull cannon but i think thats heavy??? So thats alittle meh.

Also alittle in the favor of tzeentch summoning you can summoning works best for the situation at hand GEQ and meq= horrors, MEQ/Plague marine= flamers, tanks= exalted flamers. That said the range is just a tiny bit too short be particularly awesome

Corn wrote:
Have any of you skull collectors figured out a way to use summoning to your advantage? Every time I have a Khorn character standing around summoning I feel like he got in trouble and isn't allowed to go chase skulls with the rest of the kids. I really want it to be amazing, but with a Khorn only daemon army it feels awkward due to our characters never wanting to be standing still.

The only time summoning doesn't feel awkward to me is when they are sitting around in close combat and need some backup.

Yeah this seems an issue generally. It's not too bad if you get a cheap herald with no other job, but even he sort of ought to be keeping up with the bloodletters, giving them +1 strength.

That said, I'm not sure why you'd bother summoning khorne stuff. The fact you have to stand still to do it means you aren't really getting anywhere any faster.

I'm a little bit tempted to try out a khorne army. Having 30 bloodletters pop up and charge in on turn one sound like fun, though it could be pretty vulnerable to being foiled by enemy bubble wrap. It seems to me that a mixed force with pink horrors to clear away chaff and bloodletters to follow up might make more sense. I realise this isn't some amazing revealation - it's kind of obvious!

I wonder if it's actually just a trap to try and go mono-god. The benefits for doing so aren't all that huge, and by not doing it you get to use the other 75% of your codex. A mixed force might well do better, I think.

There's obviously a case for getting two battalions. That might be the best way to go. Maybe have a khorne battalion so your choppy guys get to reroll charges and a mixed nurgle/tzeench one so you have nurglings and pink horrors.

 McGibs wrote:
Apologies if this has been brought up earlier, but has anyone noticed the ranged benefits of the Crimson Crown?
The Crimson Crown:
Each time you make a wound roll of 6+ for a friendly KHORNE DAEMON unit within 6" of the bearer, that model may immediately make an extra attack using the same weapon at the same target (sic)

so, for ranged weapons, this generates an entire extra attack (full shots) with the weapon. Like, for my Khorne laser Decimator with 10 shots, each roll of 6 generates 5 more shots. Get's even dumber with things like Lord of Skulls or Kytans.

Seems like something they'll catch in a FAQ (change to fight phase), but interesting nontheless.

seems strong we'll have to see. I'd ask on the facebook page so they can get it into the faq. If it gets missed then folks will buy decimators, and then it will get faq'd out and all those folks will be screwed over haha.

 McGibs wrote:
Apologies if this has been brought up earlier, but has anyone noticed the ranged benefits of the Crimson Crown?
The Crimson Crown:
Each time you make a wound roll of 6+ for a friendly KHORNE DAEMON unit within 6" of the bearer, that model may immediately make an extra attack using the same weapon at the same target (sic)

so, for ranged weapons, this generates an entire extra attack (full shots) with the weapon. Like, for my Khorne laser Decimator with 10 shots, each roll of 6 generates 5 more shots. Get's even dumber with things like Lord of Skulls or Kytans.

Seems like something they'll catch in a FAQ (change to fight phase), but interesting nontheless.

I was thinking a DP with this might actually make grinders ok. Re-rolling 1s and getting extra shots would mitigate their lower BS. It would even benefit their melee.

It unfortunately seems too good to be true. But, as it is written, it seems fun.

 McGibs wrote:
Apologies if this has been brought up earlier, but has anyone noticed the ranged benefits of the Crimson Crown?
The Crimson Crown:
Each time you make a wound roll of 6+ for a friendly KHORNE DAEMON unit within 6" of the bearer, that model may immediately make an extra attack using the same weapon at the same target (sic)

so, for ranged weapons, this generates an entire extra attack (full shots) with the weapon. Like, for my Khorne laser Decimator with 10 shots, each roll of 6 generates 5 more shots. Get's even dumber with things like Lord of Skulls or Kytans.

Seems like something they'll catch in a FAQ (change to fight phase), but interesting nontheless.

I was already thinking of using it to make a weird Khorne gunline with forgefiend, skull throne and obliterators of khorne to complement a bloodletterbomb, and I thought a roll of 6 would only add a single shot. (But I was already pretty happy that it worked both in melee and range). But a re-reading of the rule make me believe you're right, and a 6 to wound add a whole attack with your weapon, that sounds scary good! :0
I have a tournament this weekend, should I bring this or is this gonna be a dick move?

I can see it generating a lot of raised eyebrows, even if it is technically legal. For a free warlord trait, it really seems like it was intended to only work in the fight phase, and the designers just forgot that there are khorne daemons with guns too.

VoidSempai wrote:

 McGibs wrote:
Apologies if this has been brought up earlier, but has anyone noticed the ranged benefits of the Crimson Crown?
The Crimson Crown:
Each time you make a wound roll of 6+ for a friendly KHORNE DAEMON unit within 6" of the bearer, that model may immediately make an extra attack using the same weapon at the same target (sic)

so, for ranged weapons, this generates an entire extra attack (full shots) with the weapon. Like, for my Khorne laser Decimator with 10 shots, each roll of 6 generates 5 more shots. Get's even dumber with things like Lord of Skulls or Kytans.

Seems like something they'll catch in a FAQ (change to fight phase), but interesting nontheless.

I was already thinking of using it to make a weird Khorne gunline with forgefiend, skull throne and obliterators of khorne to complement a bloodletterbomb, and I thought a roll of 6 would only add a single shot. (But I was already pretty happy that it worked both in melee and range). But a re-reading of the rule make me believe you're right, and a 6 to wound add a whole attack with your weapon, that sounds scary good! :0
I have a tournament this weekend, should I bring this or is this gonna be a dick move?

give it a go i say.

And just in case I want to have some rule to support me, is there other instance of generating extra ranged attack in the game that work similar to this one?
I know of MotA + DttFE for noise marine, that can also (IIRC) generate whole extra ranged attack.

VoidSempai wrote:
And just in case I want to have some rule to support me, is there other instance of generating extra ranged attack in the game that work similar to this one?
I know of MotA + DttFE for noise marine, that can also (IIRC) generate whole extra ranged attack.

There's an ork stratagem that does it too. It's been clarified unofficially as only getting you an extra shot, not an entire extra attack with the weapon profile. But no real FAQ

Captyn_Bob wrote:

VoidSempai wrote:
And just in case I want to have some rule to support me, is there other instance of generating extra ranged attack in the game that work similar to this one?
I know of MotA + DttFE for noise marine, that can also (IIRC) generate whole extra ranged attack.

There's an ork stratagem that does it too. It's been clarified unofficially as only getting you an extra shot, not an entire extra attack with the weapon profile. But no real FAQ

Dang! Thank you for that though, i'll keep this in mind and refer to the event TO for this. In the meantime i'll keep in mind that it only generates a single dice roll, but maybe it'll be judged to generate an extra whole attack! Thanks!

 McGibs wrote:
Apologies if this has been brought up earlier, but has anyone noticed the ranged benefits of the Crimson Crown?
The Crimson Crown:
Each time you make a wound roll of 6+ for a friendly KHORNE DAEMON unit within 6" of the bearer, that model may immediately make an extra attack using the same weapon at the same target (sic)

so, for ranged weapons, this generates an entire extra attack (full shots) with the weapon. Like, for my Khorne laser Decimator with 10 shots, each roll of 6 generates 5 more shots. Get's even dumber with things like Lord of Skulls or Kytans.

Seems like something they'll catch in a FAQ (change to fight phase), but interesting nontheless.

No, it doesnt work this way. Please, read your BRB, in particular, page 179 (shooting phase)

Number of attacks.

"Each time a model shoots a ranged weapon, it will make a number of attacks."

So, heavy 5 weapon makes 5 "attacks". And on a 6+ to wound you will make another attack, thx to the crown.

Not to get into a whole YMDC thing here, but the connection between a shooting attack and a melee attack is pretty strong - in both cases a model may make a number of attacks, but "attack" refers pretty 1-1 with a single shot or melee swing, not the full set of attacks. I'm not suggesting that I've made an airtight RAW case here, but I think assuming the opposite will result in eventual disappointment.

Still useful for the really big guns though. I guess.

If you are looking for some bucket of dice, then Slaanesh can easily do it for you. Slaanesh daemons have a stratagem, similar to the Crimson Crown effect. Whats the funny thing, you may ask? Steeds of Slaanesh.

Their "attacks" are not "swings". The number of their attacks is stated in their "weapons" ability. So every wound roll of 6+ will give you additional 2/4/8/D6 swings, depends on a unit within your aura.

On the subject of mount attacks, is there strength buffed by the aura of a herald or is it always strength 4 ? (for a seeker)

 Rydria wrote:
On the subject of mount attacks, is there strength buffed by the aura of a herald or is it always strength 4 ? (for a seeker)

Heralds buff the strength is models. Some weapons have the user’s strength and they are buffed. If a weapon just has a set strength it won’t be affected.

What's better for mashing tanks?
(Particularly of the Leman Russ variety)

Skarbrand or the Bloodthirster of Intense Rage?

Question do those trees (forgot their name) get placed just like placing other units in your deployment? You don't need the snail to drop them do you?

 dan2026 wrote:
What's better for mashing tanks?
(Particularly of the Leman Russ variety)

Skarbrand or the Bloodthirster of Intense Rage?

Daemon Prince with Skullreaver?

 andysonic1 wrote:

 dan2026 wrote:
What's better for mashing tanks?
(Particularly of the Leman Russ variety)

Skarbrand or the Bloodthirster of Intense Rage?

Daemon Prince with Skullreaver?

It is pretty absurd. Especially since I just learned you can Stratagem to swing twice per round for as long as you can pay a Battalion's worth of CP a turn...

...but considering the amount of damage you can do, it may be worth it.

 andysonic1 wrote:

 dan2026 wrote:
What's better for mashing tanks?
(Particularly of the Leman Russ variety)

Skarbrand or the Bloodthirster of Intense Rage?

Daemon Prince with Skullreaver?

Hmm a third challenger approaches.

It's a compelling combo and no mistake.