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Proper bubble wrap can always defeat a blood letter bomb. But I don't think that the point of a blood letter bomb is to win the whole game all by itself. If it can do that, your opponent is probably a newbie player who doesn't know how to bubble wrap well at all.
The point of the blood letter bomb, is to clear most of the chaff, and still provide an immediate threat that must be dealt with in the turn after. Because if they don't clear those blood letters, after all their chaff has been killed, then the following turn, those blood letters will be charging into something valuable, and by themselves, blood letters are capable enough of doing massive damage to shooty units that historically cower safely behind bubble wrap.
For less than 200 points, to achieve all that, its a good deal. And this is even if the opponent kills off all of your blood letters in the following turn. Because they have to divert some shooting to kill it. And the shooting diverted to kill the bloodletters will not be used to kill your other units.
A blood letter bomb is just the opening move in the game to clear chaff, establish board control, pose an immediate threat, and serve as a bullet magnet and diversion while the rest of your army do their thing (They aren't just sitting there having coffee right?). The blood letter bomb isn't usually the whole basis and strategy of your whole army.
pure demons (any allegiance), has tons of issues dealing with reapers+ranger spam, best idea is mix demons and mortal chaos for oblys and noise marines, you have the punch to hurt waves and kill lot of rangers, that's one of the reason why pure demons didn't get the cut at LVO, too much eldars with reapers and wave around. the only pure demon build which stand a chance is Tz cause it can bring lot of firepower and mobility on the table.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/01/31 09:28:40
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As a person with such an eldar list. I know that one blob of 30 pink horrors spliting is something that would be bery difficult to deal with. Reapers arent too good against hordes even more so they rely on thier ap to thin out said hirde. 30 horror completely just ignores reapers, while putting out 2+ to wound shooting from deep strike that can alittle down squads of reapers quickly. Behind that daemon princes would be pretty untouchable until they make convat, and elite models like dark reapers or vehicles like waves serpents are the bread and butter for daemon princes.
With an early nurgling screen and a handful of brim stones you can deep strike the horror within range to ignore aliatoc and get 2 turn worth of shooting with your horrors. Then that 1nd turn charge with the dps to basicly just end the game. Even with the unit of shining spears that would try to snipe your princes at best they only kill one daemon Prince as they can only leverage thier melee attacks against them. Then the rest of the screen and the other two daemon princes on that same turn ripp the shining spear squad apart as they lack an invulns in. Melee.
For the reasons outlined above I think the best core we have is horrors with lots of reinforcement points and 2 or 3 daemon princes behind them. Then a almost mandatory screen of nnurglings. After that you just add what ever else you think compliments that. Some folks like blood letters or more tzeentch. I personally like the Loc or the GUO as they too stand up against reapers very well.
how a LOC can stand against 15 reapers? explain me? just cause it gets 3++ save? reapers can erase models like Mortarion what makes you think Loc can survive more, maybe just cause can ds
Btw the problem is reapers+waves+rangers, i dont think a playes with 2 working neurons will disembark reapers too early and horrors aren't so good hurting veichles, when you play 3+ then... well....is not that easy at all. i guess a skilled eldar playes has still the upper hand.
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orkswubwub wrote: So i Ran a list essentially DG, CSM and Daemon Soup. 3x PBC (spewers), Deamon Prince / 3 x 3 oblits and sorcerer/lord , 20 letters and some plaguebearers with a khorne prince and poxbringer.
His list:
Changling
CHangecaster
-Grimoire
-Staff of Change
30 Pink horros
10 Brims
10 Brims
Daemon Prince of nurgle w/ wings malefic and 2x talons
Typhus
10 cultists
10 cultists
19 poxwalkers
Vortex Aquila Stronghold.
553 points reinforcements
So looking at the list (and not knowing who you are playing against) one may be inclined to take reaper against this list. That was a huge mistake. Everything basically started embarrked in the aquila aside from 30 pinks. First turn was basically either shoot the pinks or the aquila (for those who don't know 30W at 10T) as all characters were bubble wrapped. I made a beginner mistake (trying to remove said bubble wrap and not ancitipating the split) and dropped in some 20 blood letters who failed a 3d6 charge with a roll of 1, 2, 3
Shot pinks with 4++ and didn't accomplish much. Poxwalkers emerged from the aquila (were embarked so essentially all the troops are untargetable). He popped strat, pinks killed letters, grew literally towards my entire force (every model lets him put one two inches away in any direction) and essentialy wrapped around my entire force with poxwalkers. Everything got stuck and there were no eliglbe targets to kill on my turn. The oblits couldnt' shoot the poxwalkers because they had 3-4 units tied in melee (abusing pile in and consolidate to grow into other units, 3 dead model s= 6 inch tendril). Only eliglibe target the entire game was either aquila or the pinks - which if you shoot will only split and make more poxes. He had 9 CP so essentially just made poxes untargetable if he needed.
Obvious tactics are obvious - walkers were daisy chained to typhus to get blades etc. Horrors always by changeling.
Summoned in a blue scribes too somewhere in there to damn my psychic ability to smite anything and stole death hex (no more casts) also happened to roll treason of tzeentch. He accidentally rolled 3 dice for the treason but it was NBD as I was lost as soon as the poxwalkers had everything in melee (end of turn 1 really).
Don't hold me to the exact ranges he was growing his poxwalkers but that is mroe or less how it worked, after getting one unit in melee he was able to get many other units enmeshed as well and then do what he wanted to take secondary points and outman on the primaries. It isn't the kind of list that tables you but prevents you from taking secondaries. Probably a better bet against this kind of list would be to go behind enemy lines, recon, and another that is more individual of wiping out units. Or to save the bloodletters to clean up the poxes after they try to grow towards the force as they only really have a 5+++ to fall back on - it would significantly shrink the primary win condition.
Pinks never dropped below 21 models as all further damage goes to blues and brims - so dakka stands tall - needless to say all of these blues splitting also adds more poxes.
Also - P.S. Aquila can hurt a lot when it wants to =(
This is from memory so probably some errors, happened first day of tournament.
One thing to note - new poxwalkers can only be placed in coherence with another member of the unit which was in existence at the start of the current phase.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/01/31 16:43:24
Yeah I just don't see the allure of multiple Daemon Princes + Greater Daemons. Multiple Princes I can understand since they are so powerful right now, and if you make them wingless and give them relics they become absurd, and I can understand multiple Greater Daemons since they are great force multipliers. But if you try and take multiples of both in one list things aren't going to end well for you. Hordes will overwhelm you, gunlines will pick you apart, and characters don't block sight on other characters so your Prince's will either always have to huddle behind the lines or be torn apart. Pink Horrors are just as weak as Bloodletters, the only reason they are bonkers is Split and people are starting to wake up to how good it is again.
On Pink Horrors vs Wave Serpent: yeah 30 Pink Horrors shooting 90 shots at a Wave Serpent with re-rolling ones from a Prince and +1S from a Herald (so you wound on 5+ instead of 6+) deal a WHOPPING 5.833 wounds to a Wave Serpent in one round of shooting on average. Of course there will be statistical anomalies up and down, and you can always spend even more points on them via Psychic Powers to buff them further, but there comes a point where you realize you are getting zoned out by floating tanks that are shrugging off your shooting and then unleashing hell back. I very much doubt you will have the ability to target the Dark Reapers before they can fire back. The Prince / Herald also don't do anything that first turn except boost your units. I very much doubt the Eldar player is going to stay in assault range and will force you to extend out of your comfort zone. Horrors vs Armor is statistically a wash, but if you can get near Infantry they do become great. Split is also great but again you are investing more and more into them. They are a very good defensive unit with above average shooting potential but they do have a glaring weakness against armor.
On the flip side: you could charge in with 15-19 Bloodletters (no +1WS from Overwatch) with a nearby Prince, attack with 39 attacks, and deal between 10.37 - 13.481 wounds on average to the Wave Serpent. Statistically, Bloodletters vs Armor is great, but they have a little harder time dealing with blobby Chaff. The investment to make Bloodletters better and last "just as long" as Horrors with Split is kind of equal at the end of the day, just different. Instead of reserve points, psychic powers, and overlapping auras, you just add more Bloodletters and spend more CP. You don't even really need the auras from characters, just add more Bloodletters.
If you wanted to do mixed Daemons and be competitive, your best bet is 20-40-60 Bloodletters dropping down with 30 Pink Horrors right behind them. The Bloodletters are the killy distraction carnifex while the Horrors grow and shoot behind them. If I was against that it would be a real problem. You don't even need character support really, but a Prince or two would make the whole thing even better.
andysonic1 wrote: Yeah I just don't see the allure of multiple Daemon Princes + Greater Daemons. Multiple Princes I can understand since they are so powerful right now, and if you make them wingless and give them relics they become absurd, and I can understand multiple Greater Daemons since they are great force multipliers. But if you try and take multiples of both in one list things aren't going to end well for you. Hordes will overwhelm you, gunlines will pick you apart, and characters don't block sight on other characters so your Prince's will either always have to huddle behind the lines or be torn apart. Pink Horrors are just as weak as Bloodletters, the only reason they are bonkers is Split and people are starting to wake up to how good it is again.
On Pink Horrors vs Wave Serpent: yeah 30 Pink Horrors shooting 90 shots at a Wave Serpent with re-rolling ones from a Prince and +1S from a Herald (so you wound on 5+ instead of 6+) deal a WHOPPING 5.833 wounds to a Wave Serpent in one round of shooting on average. Of course there will be statistical anomalies up and down, and you can always spend even more points on them via Psychic Powers to buff them further, but there comes a point where you realize you are getting zoned out by floating tanks that are shrugging off your shooting and then unleashing hell back. I very much doubt you will have the ability to target the Dark Reapers before they can fire back. The Prince / Herald also don't do anything that first turn except boost your units. I very much doubt the Eldar player is going to stay in assault range and will force you to extend out of your comfort zone. Horrors vs Armor is statistically a wash, but if you can get near Infantry they do become great. Split is also great but again you are investing more and more into them. They are a very good defensive unit with above average shooting potential but they do have a glaring weakness against armor.
On the flip side: you could charge in with 15-19 Bloodletters (no +1WS from Overwatch) with a nearby Prince, attack with 39 attacks, and deal between 10.37 - 13.481 wounds on average to the Wave Serpent. Statistically, Bloodletters vs Armor is great, but they have a little harder time dealing with blobby Chaff. The investment to make Bloodletters better and last "just as long" as Horrors with Split is kind of equal at the end of the day, just different. Instead of reserve points, psychic powers, and overlapping auras, you just add more Bloodletters and spend more CP. You don't even really need the auras from characters, just add more Bloodletters.
If you wanted to do mixed Daemons and be competitive, your best bet is 20-40-60 Bloodletters dropping down with 30 Pink Horrors right behind them. The Bloodletters are the killy distraction carnifex while the Horrors grow and shoot behind them. If I was against that it would be a real problem. You don't even need character support really, but a Prince or two would make the whole thing even better.
andysonic1 wrote: Yeah I just don't see the allure of multiple Daemon Princes + Greater Daemons. Multiple Princes I can understand since they are so powerful right now, and if you make them wingless and give them relics they become absurd, and I can understand multiple Greater Daemons since they are great force multipliers. But if you try and take multiples of both in one list things aren't going to end well for you. Hordes will overwhelm you, gunlines will pick you apart, and characters don't block sight on other characters so your Prince's will either always have to huddle behind the lines or be torn apart. Pink Horrors are just as weak as Bloodletters, the only reason they are bonkers is Split and people are starting to wake up to how good it is again.
On Pink Horrors vs Wave Serpent: yeah 30 Pink Horrors shooting 90 shots at a Wave Serpent with re-rolling ones from a Prince and +1S from a Herald (so you wound on 5+ instead of 6+) deal a WHOPPING 5.833 wounds to a Wave Serpent in one round of shooting on average. Of course there will be statistical anomalies up and down, and you can always spend even more points on them via Psychic Powers to buff them further, but there comes a point where you realize you are getting zoned out by floating tanks that are shrugging off your shooting and then unleashing hell back. I very much doubt you will have the ability to target the Dark Reapers before they can fire back. The Prince / Herald also don't do anything that first turn except boost your units. I very much doubt the Eldar player is going to stay in assault range and will force you to extend out of your comfort zone. Horrors vs Armor is statistically a wash, but if you can get near Infantry they do become great. Split is also great but again you are investing more and more into them. They are a very good defensive unit with above average shooting potential but they do have a glaring weakness against armor.
On the flip side: you could charge in with 15-19 Bloodletters (no +1WS from Overwatch) with a nearby Prince, attack with 39 attacks, and deal between 10.37 - 13.481 wounds on average to the Wave Serpent. Statistically, Bloodletters vs Armor is great, but they have a little harder time dealing with blobby Chaff. The investment to make Bloodletters better and last "just as long" as Horrors with Split is kind of equal at the end of the day, just different. Instead of reserve points, psychic powers, and overlapping auras, you just add more Bloodletters and spend more CP. You don't even really need the auras from characters, just add more Bloodletters.
If you wanted to do mixed Daemons and be competitive, your best bet is 20-40-60 Bloodletters dropping down with 30 Pink Horrors right behind them. The Bloodletters are the killy distraction carnifex while the Horrors grow and shoot behind them. If I was against that it would be a real problem. You don't even need character support really, but a Prince or two would make the whole thing even better.
agree monoGod usually struggle, or you play mixed demons or better you mix with mortal chaos, take obliterators for heavy thanks and horrors for infantry, then you stand a chance, 9 obly+abbadon+slaanesh stratagem get you sure 1/2 wave bite the dust (depend about what oblys rolls), then horrors can deal with disembarking infantry, still not easy but quite better than just monoGod builds.
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andysonic1 wrote: Yeah I just don't see the allure of multiple Daemon Princes + Greater Daemons. Multiple Princes I can understand since they are so powerful right now, and if you make them wingless and give them relics they become absurd, and I can understand multiple Greater Daemons since they are great force multipliers. But if you try and take multiples of both in one list things aren't going to end well for you. Hordes will overwhelm you, gunlines will pick you apart, and characters don't block sight on other characters so your Prince's will either always have to huddle behind the lines or be torn apart. Pink Horrors are just as weak as Bloodletters, the only reason they are bonkers is Split and people are starting to wake up to how good it is again.
On Pink Horrors vs Wave Serpent: yeah 30 Pink Horrors shooting 90 shots at a Wave Serpent with re-rolling ones from a Prince and +1S from a Herald (so you wound on 5+ instead of 6+) deal a WHOPPING 5.833 wounds to a Wave Serpent in one round of shooting on average. Of course there will be statistical anomalies up and down, and you can always spend even more points on them via Psychic Powers to buff them further, but there comes a point where you realize you are getting zoned out by floating tanks that are shrugging off your shooting and then unleashing hell back. I very much doubt you will have the ability to target the Dark Reapers before they can fire back. The Prince / Herald also don't do anything that first turn except boost your units. I very much doubt the Eldar player is going to stay in assault range and will force you to extend out of your comfort zone. Horrors vs Armor is statistically a wash, but if you can get near Infantry they do become great. Split is also great but again you are investing more and more into them. They are a very good defensive unit with above average shooting potential but they do have a glaring weakness against armor.
On the flip side: you could charge in with 15-19 Bloodletters (no +1WS from Overwatch) with a nearby Prince, attack with 39 attacks, and deal between 10.37 - 13.481 wounds on average to the Wave Serpent. Statistically, Bloodletters vs Armor is great, but they have a little harder time dealing with blobby Chaff. The investment to make Bloodletters better and last "just as long" as Horrors with Split is kind of equal at the end of the day, just different. Instead of reserve points, psychic powers, and overlapping auras, you just add more Bloodletters and spend more CP. You don't even really need the auras from characters, just add more Bloodletters.
If you wanted to do mixed Daemons and be competitive, your best bet is 20-40-60 Bloodletters dropping down with 30 Pink Horrors right behind them. The Bloodletters are the killy distraction carnifex while the Horrors grow and shoot behind them. If I was against that it would be a real problem. You don't even need character support really, but a Prince or two would make the whole thing even better.
Why would you take the wings off the princes?
The idea is two fold: make them cheaper so you can bring in more units, and deep strike them for 1 CP to get them where you want right away. I have ALWAYS taken my Prince's with Wings, but now that I can deep strike them in I'm not sure it's worth the points. A Skullreaver wielding wingless Prince is going after things that won't be perched on top of buildings. Hordes will take care of things on upper floors better than the Prince as well. You don't lose much movement and for me personally it restricts me to staying near my horde which has always been difficult for me to remember (even though as soon as a Prince sticks his head out it gets lopped off every single time). For melee armies it's worth saving the points and spending the CP, for ranged armies you're better off winged since you'll most likely be on the table.
remember a winged prince can easily get away from dangers and/or move where is more needed, can fly over cheap troops, can attack flyers (no wings no attacks on thos annoying flyers), fly keyword is strong in 8th.
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andysonic1 wrote: Yeah I just don't see the allure of multiple Daemon Princes + Greater Daemons. Multiple Princes I can understand since they are so powerful right now, and if you make them wingless and give them relics they become absurd, and I can understand multiple Greater Daemons since they are great force multipliers. But if you try and take multiples of both in one list things aren't going to end well for you. Hordes will overwhelm you, gunlines will pick you apart, and characters don't block sight on other characters so your Prince's will either always have to huddle behind the lines or be torn apart. Pink Horrors are just as weak as Bloodletters, the only reason they are bonkers is Split and people are starting to wake up to how good it is again.
On Pink Horrors vs Wave Serpent: yeah 30 Pink Horrors shooting 90 shots at a Wave Serpent with re-rolling ones from a Prince and +1S from a Herald (so you wound on 5+ instead of 6+) deal a WHOPPING 5.833 wounds to a Wave Serpent in one round of shooting on average. Of course there will be statistical anomalies up and down, and you can always spend even more points on them via Psychic Powers to buff them further, but there comes a point where you realize you are getting zoned out by floating tanks that are shrugging off your shooting and then unleashing hell back. I very much doubt you will have the ability to target the Dark Reapers before they can fire back. The Prince / Herald also don't do anything that first turn except boost your units. I very much doubt the Eldar player is going to stay in assault range and will force you to extend out of your comfort zone. Horrors vs Armor is statistically a wash, but if you can get near Infantry they do become great. Split is also great but again you are investing more and more into them. They are a very good defensive unit with above average shooting potential but they do have a glaring weakness against armor.
On the flip side: you could charge in with 15-19 Bloodletters (no +1WS from Overwatch) with a nearby Prince, attack with 39 attacks, and deal between 10.37 - 13.481 wounds on average to the Wave Serpent. Statistically, Bloodletters vs Armor is great, but they have a little harder time dealing with blobby Chaff. The investment to make Bloodletters better and last "just as long" as Horrors with Split is kind of equal at the end of the day, just different. Instead of reserve points, psychic powers, and overlapping auras, you just add more Bloodletters and spend more CP. You don't even really need the auras from characters, just add more Bloodletters.
If you wanted to do mixed Daemons and be competitive, your best bet is 20-40-60 Bloodletters dropping down with 30 Pink Horrors right behind them. The Bloodletters are the killy distraction carnifex while the Horrors grow and shoot behind them. If I was against that it would be a real problem. You don't even need character support really, but a Prince or two would make the whole thing even better.
Why would you take the wings off the princes?
The idea is two fold: make them cheaper so you can bring in more units, and deep strike them for 1 CP to get them where you want right away. I have ALWAYS taken my Prince's with Wings, but now that I can deep strike them in I'm not sure it's worth the points. A Skullreaver wielding wingless Prince is going after things that won't be perched on top of buildings. Hordes will take care of things on upper floors better than the Prince as well. You don't lose much movement and for me personally it restricts me to staying near my horde which has always been difficult for me to remember (even though as soon as a Prince sticks his head out it gets lopped off every single time). For melee armies it's worth saving the points and spending the CP, for ranged armies you're better off winged since you'll most likely be on the table.
[/spoiler]
Interesting. I am currently building a mono-Slaanesh army so I suppose the DP is fast enough to keep up. Or I could just DS him in like you've mentioned. I had not seen that the PL would make it only cost 1CP. That makes it seem pretty viable!
blackmage wrote: remember a winged prince can easily get away from dangers and/or move where is more needed, can fly over cheap troops, can attack flyers (no wings no attacks on thos annoying flyers), fly keyword is strong in 8th.
Yeah the ability to attack flyers is pretty gross for melee Princes. It's not really an easy choice to make and heavily depends on the rest of your army.
I am also in the boat of "have always taken wings, but now questioning if it's needed" .
Wings are great that's true but like others have said, 1 CP deep strike, and they already move 8" on their own, do they really need the wings now? Sure you can jump out of combat if you want but why would you? And the ability to go melee vs aircraft is sweet but that stuff normally moves 30", if your only option is to chase one with a dp then your going to have bigger problems on you hands.
I think I need to get my hands on a dp with out wings at this point. :p the option is just too viable to not have it. Or magnetize the wings on the model I have. . .
Azuza001 wrote: I am also in the boat of "have always taken wings, but now questioning if it's needed" .
Wings are great that's true but like others have said, 1 CP deep strike, and they already move 8" on their own, do they really need the wings now? Sure you can jump out of combat if you want but why would you? And the ability to go melee vs aircraft is sweet but that stuff normally moves 30", if your only option is to chase one with a dp then your going to have bigger problems on you hands.
I think I need to get my hands on a dp with out wings at this point. :p the option is just too viable to not have it. Or magnetize the wings on the model I have. . .
if you cant use ur Dp against flyers i can grant you will have tons of issues, more than spend those 24pts. Is not just jump outside melee, think about 30 cultist in upper levels of a building sitting on obj and you cant engage in melee cause you cant go upstair... just an example, when you need to redeploy those extra 4" might make the difference, btw try them and see.
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Azuza001 wrote: I am also in the boat of "have always taken wings, but now questioning if it's needed" .
Wings are great that's true but like others have said, 1 CP deep strike, and they already move 8" on their own, do they really need the wings now? Sure you can jump out of combat if you want but why would you? And the ability to go melee vs aircraft is sweet but that stuff normally moves 30", if your only option is to chase one with a dp then your going to have bigger problems on you hands.
I think I need to get my hands on a dp with out wings at this point. :p the option is just too viable to not have it. Or magnetize the wings on the model I have. . .
if you cant use ur Dp against flyers i can grant you will have tons of issues, more than spend those 24pts. Is not just jump outside melee, think about 30 cultist in upper levels of a building sitting on obj and you cant engage in melee cause you cant go upstair... just an example, when you need to redeploy those extra 4" might make the difference, btw try them and see.
30 Cultists on the upper level of a building? All 30? On the upper level? Can you take a picture of that next time you see it because that sounds like ether overlapping bases or one huge building.
Either way, infantry can invade that building. If you're using your Daemon Prince to try and fight Chaff, you're wasting his potential.
Azuza001 wrote: I am also in the boat of "have always taken wings, but now questioning if it's needed" .
Wings are great that's true but like others have said, 1 CP deep strike, and they already move 8" on their own, do they really need the wings now? Sure you can jump out of combat if you want but why would you? And the ability to go melee vs aircraft is sweet but that stuff normally moves 30", if your only option is to chase one with a dp then your going to have bigger problems on you hands.
I think I need to get my hands on a dp with out wings at this point. :p the option is just too viable to not have it. Or magnetize the wings on the model I have. . .
if you cant use ur Dp against flyers i can grant you will have tons of issues, more than spend those 24pts. Is not just jump outside melee, think about 30 cultist in upper levels of a building sitting on obj and you cant engage in melee cause you cant go upstair... just an example, when you need to redeploy those extra 4" might make the difference, btw try them and see.
I am just going to try it both ways and see which way I like the use of better. I already have a dp with wings for tzeentch. My point is there are valid arguments to saving the points and going wingless, depending on your force it can be just as useful without the wings as with. This is one of the few times that I can see both sides being valid on a units options. It's no longer an "auto include".
What's REALLY annoying is that Uraka the Warfiend got a points decrease, making him pretty competitive if you take him and a Skullreaver Prince, but he's still 9PL, instantly negating his relevance since it costs 2CP to drop him in. Hopefully SOMEONE cares enough in March to fix that and put him at 8PL where he belongs. I'd love to drop him and Skullreaver Prince in behind Bloodletters and let them go to work.
If your bloodletters are charging a nothing screen unit, you are bad and you should feel bad. BLs should never drop turn 1. Maybe not even 2. Take a ton of antihorde (pinks?) to clear the screen first.
Azuza001 wrote: I am also in the boat of "have always taken wings, but now questioning if it's needed" .
Wings are great that's true but like others have said, 1 CP deep strike, and they already move 8" on their own, do they really need the wings now? Sure you can jump out of combat if you want but why would you? And the ability to go melee vs aircraft is sweet but that stuff normally moves 30", if your only option is to chase one with a dp then your going to have bigger problems on you hands.
I think I need to get my hands on a dp with out wings at this point. :p the option is just too viable to not have it. Or magnetize the wings on the model I have. . .
if you cant use ur Dp against flyers i can grant you will have tons of issues, more than spend those 24pts. Is not just jump outside melee, think about 30 cultist in upper levels of a building sitting on obj and you cant engage in melee cause you cant go upstair... just an example, when you need to redeploy those extra 4" might make the difference, btw try them and see.
30 Cultists on the upper level of a building? All 30? On the upper level? Can you take a picture of that next time you see it because that sounds like ether overlapping bases or one huge building.
Either way, infantry can invade that building. If you're using your Daemon Prince to try and fight Chaff, you're wasting his potential.
many 3 story buildings in serious tournaments have space for 30 cultists in 2nd and 3rd floor ( is enough put them at 1,1" from the floor and you will never charge them cause you cant stay at 1" or less, as rules ask to start a CaC), btw clearly you want play a wingless Dp and wont hear so play and have fun , peace out.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
rvd1ofakind wrote: If your bloodletters are charging a nothing screen unit, you are bad and you should feel bad. BLs should never drop turn 1. Maybe not even 2. Take a ton of antihorde (pinks?) to clear the screen first.
biggest problem is an average tournament game last 3 turn if you drop Bl 2nd turn or 3rd they cant do a lot, btw agree a 1st turn Bl drop usually is a waste, unless you either drop a nice amount of pink horrors/flamers to clean screens.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/02/01 11:15:43
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rvd1ofakind wrote: If your bloodletters are charging a nothing screen unit, you are bad and you should feel bad. BLs should never drop turn 1. Maybe not even 2. Take a ton of antihorde (pinks?) to clear the screen first.
Oh boy some anti-horde that sounds like a great idea let's take 30 Pink Horrors and have them shoot at chaff I bet they kill all of them!
Spoiler:
30 Pink Horrors
19 Bloodletters
Yeah I'm not exactly sure why spending 210+ points on Pink Horrors plus the necessary characters to buff them is magically better than spending 165 points on 20 Bloodletters with Icon and Banner that need no extra support. You spend one extra CP with the Bloodletters. You spend 45+ extra points with the Horrors, plus reserve points for split if you're into that. They end up doing nearly the same amount of offensive work, and clearly the Pink do more defensive work with more investment. As I've said earlier in this thread: it just depends on what is more important to you between points and CP, along with what else you are bringing. There's nothing statistically wrong with throwing Bloodletters at a screening unit to remove it, and then following up the next turn with either your bigger units or even more Bloodletters.
If you want a better argument about what to bring instead of Bloodletters, a closer point comparison would be Flamers. The problem with Flamers is they aren't actually that good against hordes and will require supporting fire.
Spoiler:
So like it or not, for better or for worse, the meta dictates that you will be spending more points than the chaff unit itself in order to remove it. How you do so is completely up to you. The Daemons Codex is very open ended and you can make a lot of different viable lists from it using the models you have on hand. Statistically speaking and when comparing point costs, every god is in a pretty good place.
* As with all mathhammering, there will always be variance on the tabletop. The best way to see how something works is to actually play it.
many 3 story buildings in serious tournaments have space for 30 cultists in 2nd and 3rd floor ( is enough put them at 1,1" from the floor and you will never charge them cause you cant stay at 1" or less, as rules ask to start a CaC), btw clearly you want play a wingless Dp and wont hear so play and have fun , peace out.
Your argument is just not that great. Why would I throw my Daemon Prince at 30 cultists, especially if he had wings? Even my 9 attacks Khorne Daemon Prince with double Talons is only doing 9 attacks on the charge. That's a max of 9 dead cultists. You double that (or more) by throwing less points worth of Bloodletters at them. Why would I: A) Risk getting poked to death by Cultists on the swing back (or taking some chip damage), and B) get my tank / character / elite hunter stuck in combat with chaff for multiple turns, when I can spend less to do more and throw him against something he will actually kill or neuter, like a tank being held down by Bloodletters or Flesh Hounds or even just out in the open? Your argument boils down to: if he has wings he can reach them so he should! Could you further explain your argument because from a damage output and points perspective it doesn't make much sense right now.
There is no golden rule of Warhammer. There is no points to CP conversion. How much anything is worth depends completely on your list and you as a player.
cause sometimes you need to do....cultist is an example anything you cant assault cause you have no wings is a problem.
Last tournament i had 1 single nurgling sitting on obj in front of him some poxwalkers he had Mortarion and a wingless prince he needed to charge and kill both units to grab the objective but prince had too few attacks to remove all the poxes so he uses mortarion and kill any single pox but cant assault nurgling cause Dp havent fly and cant fly over the poxes and he lost....btw play as you wish, you are arguing on a piece of equipment costing 24 POINTS are you aware of that? what you can play so decisive with those 24 poiints? If you think play a wingless Dp do it, maybe you right and im wrong maybe ur a skilled player and see things we cant see, good luck.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/02/01 19:50:13
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03-18-2018
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06-12-2018
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tournament
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01-27-2019
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02-25-2019
rvd1ofakind wrote: If your bloodletters are charging a nothing screen unit, you are bad and you should feel bad. BLs should never drop turn 1. Maybe not even 2. Take a ton of antihorde (pinks?) to clear the screen first.
Oh boy some anti-horde that sounds like a great idea let's take 30 Pink Horrors and have them shoot at chaff I bet they kill all of them!
Spoiler:
30 Pink Horrors
19 Bloodletters
Yeah I'm not exactly sure why spending 210+ points on Pink Horrors plus the necessary characters to buff them is magically better than spending 165 points on 20 Bloodletters with Icon and Banner that need no extra support. You spend one extra CP with the Bloodletters. You spend 45+ extra points with the Horrors, plus reserve points for split if you're into that. They end up doing nearly the same amount of offensive work, and clearly the Pink do more defensive work with more investment. As I've said earlier in this thread: it just depends on what is more important to you between points and CP, along with what else you are bringing. There's nothing statistically wrong with throwing Bloodletters at a screening unit to remove it, and then following up the next turn with either your bigger units or even more Bloodletters.
If you want a better argument about what to bring instead of Bloodletters, a closer point comparison would be Flamers. The problem with Flamers is they aren't actually that good against hordes and will require supporting fire.
Spoiler:
So like it or not, for better or for worse, the meta dictates that you will be spending more points than the chaff unit itself in order to remove it. How you do so is completely up to you. The Daemons Codex is very open ended and you can make a lot of different viable lists from it using the models you have on hand. Statistically speaking and when comparing point costs, every god is in a pretty good place.
* As with all mathhammering, there will always be variance on the tabletop. The best way to see how something works is to actually play it.
many 3 story buildings in serious tournaments have space for 30 cultists in 2nd and 3rd floor ( is enough put them at 1,1" from the floor and you will never charge them cause you cant stay at 1" or less, as rules ask to start a CaC), btw clearly you want play a wingless Dp and wont hear so play and have fun , peace out.
Your argument is just not that great. Why would I throw my Daemon Prince at 30 cultists, especially if he had wings? Even my 9 attacks Khorne Daemon Prince with double Talons is only doing 9 attacks on the charge. That's a max of 9 dead cultists. You double that (or more) by throwing less points worth of Bloodletters at them. Why would I: A) Risk getting poked to death by Cultists on the swing back (or taking some chip damage), and B) get my tank / character / elite hunter stuck in combat with chaff for multiple turns, when I can spend less to do more and throw him against something he will actually kill or neuter, like a tank being held down by Bloodletters or Flesh Hounds or even just out in the open? Your argument boils down to: if he has wings he can reach them so he should! Could you further explain your argument because from a damage output and points perspective it doesn't make much sense right now.
There is no golden rule of Warhammer. There is no points to CP conversion. How much anything is worth depends completely on your list and you as a player.
I mean try playing with both. Bloodletters AFTER the charge if they don't wipe the unit are severely weakened at lower STR and Attacks. If they do wipe a unit (like 30 cultists) the difference between 4++ and 5++ is huge ecsp with the morale considerations. Also bloodletters are harder to position to charge anything useful (and a 3d6 charge can fail, it happened to me even with reroll a few times).
For Pinks you don't really have to deepstrike them as you aren't as worried about them getting shot off the table. Make the pinks the only thing in your army your opponent can shoot and drop invul strat first turn is very frustrating for opponents who want to alpha you off the table.
Are you playing competitive opponents regularly with your letters? I'm open to learning how to play better. I'd love to hear how you maximize their effectiveness and what your opponent does to counter your drops. I find it hard to "trade up" well with using letters, as they typically fit my list as eliminating bubble wrap but the wrap usually costs less than my letter unit (maybe that is my problem?)
Also I have run prince without wings thinking I was clever - i found the biggest issue is that you put him behind troops to use character lack of targeting but if you are behind any big blob of troops it can be hard to charge or herocially intervene. Also if a flyer goes behind you for line breaker / behind enemy lines having a flying daemon prince is money. It might not be an auto include but from having actually play tested it - i will be staying with wings for the foreseeable future. A chaos lord seems to be better for what the unwinged prince does at 8 inch move and challenges with terrain / models.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/02/02 02:22:47
The reason pinks are better is that they don't die as fast. Plus I will never use pinks without all 3: herald, warlord re-roll 1s to wound and +1 wound. So they do a ton of damage.
If I use 2-3 squads I'll take a DP too
And ignoring the fact that pinks don't rely on being able to get into base contact / making the charge either. I don't think that biased post disguised as math hammering was enlightening to anyone.
