Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:
No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.
If you are already a member then feel free to login now.
I think there are some very valid point being fleshed out here.
As said blood letters when they hit will most certainly out damage most everything in the game. While pink horror will do very respectable damage at ranged.
The difference is getting the blood letters where they need to go the pink horrors can deep strike and get the job done. The blood letter can also deep strike but they also need access to a clear charge route and abit more cp invest as they need to deep strike and take the banner.
I think pink horrors are in a general since the better unit. Like if you gave me any list with a free 300 points and told me to give some one a daemons unit. I'd probably say a puno horror squad. Simply because even in the blood letter bomb list is love to bring pink horrors as a great waybto clear charge and keep models on the table.
The blood letter are by thier nature more specialized. While these guys are like a nuclear explosion when they hit stuff, they lack abit in the execution. They need long charges and can be blocked by screens. 32mm bases are also no thier friend greatly reducing thier ability to get good surround with thier surprisingly large model count on units with such big bases.
Lastly on this debate pinks have a duel role in being one of the best screens money can by. Split allowing you to pack a whole horde army worth of minis inside of one clown are unit to absorb alot of damage for ypur force.
Ok the case of the dps with wings or jot. Actualy spent a few moments today considering it. It's certainly not a throw away point. However I think the wings are just too important. The threat range increase is just too good and the fact that you don't have to untangle them from your screen is famtastic. On top of this the ability to fly the dps past chaff and up into buildings all to sniff out and snipe character is too great. I thi k dps are one of the better if not out best character hunter optjon. Having access to power mutliwound decent so attacks, and high mobility and fly to sneak past screens. On top of that the dp is an expensive model characters are.a good way to quickly score poi t's toward paying for itself.
i m just testing a bit demons, both Bl and pinks are great, i just found pinks be more versatile, with stratagem they can get 3++ save which make them very durable, split is a nice option too if you can spare some extra points, bl hit hard but usually they are single use and they are easier to deal with, btw for me 30 horrors and 30 Bl and a fluxmaster, if you can afford all 3, works great in ds, they cause troubles at many armies.
3rd place league tournament
03-18-2018
2nd place league tournament
06-12-2018
3rd place league
tournament
12-09-2018
3rd place league tournament
01-13-2019
1st place league tournament
01-27-2019
1st place league
tournament
02-25-2019
In all this talk about pinks, I see everyone preferring 30 to keep that extra shot up for longer. However, multiple blobs of 20 seem potentially stronger, especially if deep striking. 2 CP=2 x20=40 deep striking pinks. vs 2CP=1x blob of 30. Since you are deep striking anyway, you'll get at least 1 round off with the extra shot. It scales less well on flickering fire, and will lose that extra shot a little sooner, but realistically, any army worth its salt can knock off 10 pinks @ 18 inches pretty easily, so I'm not sure thats actually much of a cost. I guess if you are spending a ton of points on splitting, but then again, you might be better off just deep striking those extra models. For comparison:
Fluxmaster Demon Prince 20 Pinks 20 Pinks 10 blues
Vs.
Fluxmaster Demon Prince 30 Pinks 10 blues or brimstones 10 blues or brimstones
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/02/02 13:39:45
rvd1ofakind wrote: If your bloodletters are charging a nothing screen unit, you are bad and you should feel bad. BLs should never drop turn 1. Maybe not even 2. Take a ton of antihorde (pinks?) to clear the screen first.
Oh boy some anti-horde that sounds like a great idea let's take 30 Pink Horrors and have them shoot at chaff I bet they kill all of them!
Spoiler:
30 Pink Horrors
19 Bloodletters
Yeah I'm not exactly sure why spending 210+ points on Pink Horrors plus the necessary characters to buff them is magically better than spending 165 points on 20 Bloodletters with Icon and Banner that need no extra support. You spend one extra CP with the Bloodletters. You spend 45+ extra points with the Horrors, plus reserve points for split if you're into that. They end up doing nearly the same amount of offensive work, and clearly the Pink do more defensive work with more investment. As I've said earlier in this thread: it just depends on what is more important to you between points and CP, along with what else you are bringing. There's nothing statistically wrong with throwing Bloodletters at a screening unit to remove it, and then following up the next turn with either your bigger units or even more Bloodletters.
If you want a better argument about what to bring instead of Bloodletters, a closer point comparison would be Flamers. The problem with Flamers is they aren't actually that good against hordes and will require supporting fire.
Spoiler:
So like it or not, for better or for worse, the meta dictates that you will be spending more points than the chaff unit itself in order to remove it. How you do so is completely up to you. The Daemons Codex is very open ended and you can make a lot of different viable lists from it using the models you have on hand. Statistically speaking and when comparing point costs, every god is in a pretty good place.
* As with all mathhammering, there will always be variance on the tabletop. The best way to see how something works is to actually play it.
many 3 story buildings in serious tournaments have space for 30 cultists in 2nd and 3rd floor ( is enough put them at 1,1" from the floor and you will never charge them cause you cant stay at 1" or less, as rules ask to start a CaC), btw clearly you want play a wingless Dp and wont hear so play and have fun , peace out.
Your argument is just not that great. Why would I throw my Daemon Prince at 30 cultists, especially if he had wings? Even my 9 attacks Khorne Daemon Prince with double Talons is only doing 9 attacks on the charge. That's a max of 9 dead cultists. You double that (or more) by throwing less points worth of Bloodletters at them. Why would I: A) Risk getting poked to death by Cultists on the swing back (or taking some chip damage), and B) get my tank / character / elite hunter stuck in combat with chaff for multiple turns, when I can spend less to do more and throw him against something he will actually kill or neuter, like a tank being held down by Bloodletters or Flesh Hounds or even just out in the open? Your argument boils down to: if he has wings he can reach them so he should! Could you further explain your argument because from a damage output and points perspective it doesn't make much sense right now.
There is no golden rule of Warhammer. There is no points to CP conversion. How much anything is worth depends completely on your list and you as a player.
Not strictly on topic but wheres that mathhammer tool. I really, really want it
Frowny wrote: In all this talk about pinks, I see everyone preferring 30 to keep that extra shot up for longer. However, multiple blobs of 20 seem potentially stronger, especially if deep striking. 2 CP=2 x20=40 deep striking pinks. vs 2CP=1x blob of 30. Since you are deep striking anyway, you'll get at least 1 round off with the extra shot. It scales less well on flickering fire, and will lose that extra shot a little sooner, but realistically, any army worth its salt can knock off 10 pinks @ 18 inches pretty easily, so I'm not sure thats actually much of a cost. I guess if you are spending a ton of points on splitting, but then again, you might be better off just deep striking those extra models. For comparison:
Fluxmaster
Demon Prince
20 Pinks
20 Pinks
10 blues
Vs.
Fluxmaster
Demon Prince
30 Pinks
10 blues or brimstones
10 blues or brimstones
Honestly the question is really how valuable is having a detachment of all Tzeentch daemons - as ideally it would be great to run 2 - x3 nurglings and 1 group of pinks (for competitive ITC - only due to concern for reaper and to deny enemy deep strike / get recon etc.) - casual / Chapter approved agree blues and brims are rocking (also good in compete but you would have to buy-in to the idea of essentially giving up this secondary likely).
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/02/02 14:49:36
Frowny wrote: In all this talk about pinks, I see everyone preferring 30 to keep that extra shot up for longer. However, multiple blobs of 20 seem potentially stronger, especially if deep striking. 2 CP=2 x20=40 deep striking pinks. vs 2CP=1x blob of 30. Since you are deep striking anyway, you'll get at least 1 round off with the extra shot. It scales less well on flickering fire, and will lose that extra shot a little sooner, but realistically, any army worth its salt can knock off 10 pinks @ 18 inches pretty easily, so I'm not sure thats actually much of a cost. I guess if you are spending a ton of points on splitting, but then again, you might be better off just deep striking those extra models. For comparison:
Fluxmaster
Demon Prince
20 Pinks
20 Pinks
10 blues
Vs.
Fluxmaster
Demon Prince
30 Pinks
10 blues or brimstones
10 blues or brimstones
40 pinks sound fine,,, but i hoenstly prefer 1 single blob which can get max advantage by flickering fire and warp surge stratagem, in any case i really prefer play 3x3 nurglings instead of a whole Tz detachment.
3rd place league tournament
03-18-2018
2nd place league tournament
06-12-2018
3rd place league
tournament
12-09-2018
3rd place league tournament
01-13-2019
1st place league tournament
01-27-2019
1st place league
tournament
02-25-2019
Frowny wrote: In all this talk about pinks, I see everyone preferring 30 to keep that extra shot up for longer. However, multiple blobs of 20 seem potentially stronger, especially if deep striking. 2 CP=2 x20=40 deep striking pinks. vs 2CP=1x blob of 30. Since you are deep striking anyway, you'll get at least 1 round off with the extra shot. It scales less well on flickering fire, and will lose that extra shot a little sooner, but realistically, any army worth its salt can knock off 10 pinks @ 18 inches pretty easily, so I'm not sure thats actually much of a cost. I guess if you are spending a ton of points on splitting, but then again, you might be better off just deep striking those extra models. For comparison:
Fluxmaster
Demon Prince
20 Pinks
20 Pinks
10 blues
Vs.
Fluxmaster
Demon Prince
30 Pinks
10 blues or brimstones
10 blues or brimstones
If you can find the space to set aside 100-200 points for reinforcements that 30 man Pink Horrors squad will stay above 20 for a very long time (as you replace with Blues and Brims). Additionally, in ITC formats, that squad will take forever to kill, but can't be ignored, so it probably won't give up the points for Reaper easily and you can maintain it's firepower for a much longer portion of the game. Also, if they're focus firing your Pink Horrors to get them down, I feel like you're already winning in some ways.
"In relating the circumstances which have led to my confinement in this refuge for the demented, I am aware that my present position will create a natural doubt of the authenticity of my narrative."
blackmage wrote:
40 pinks sound fine,,, but i hoenstly prefer 1 single blob which can get max advantage by flickering fire and warp surge stratagem, in any case i really prefer play 3x3 nurglings instead of a whole Tz detachment.
TwinPoleTheory wrote:
If you can find the space to set aside 100-200 points for reinforcements that 30 man Pink Horrors squad will stay above 20 for a very long time (as you replace with Blues and Brims). Additionally, in ITC formats, that squad will take forever to kill, but can't be ignored, so it probably won't give up the points for Reaper easily and you can maintain it's firepower for a much longer portion of the game. Also, if they're focus firing your Pink Horrors to get them down, I feel like you're already winning in some ways.
i more or less agree with both of these statements. I don't carem ch for a whole tz detachment either not really worth it. Brims are still better than nurglings as a screen, but if i want a screen i think i'd just bring the horror blob and call it a day. while nurgles are about as durable for the points as brimstone are (unless multiple damage weapons are also used), but the nurglings can scout and help rest control over the table. Also itc they don't get out free points because for some reason horde squads have to be nerfed by the mission format.
The 30 man squad is more flexible as you only really have to concentrate your auras and such on them. You can take a banner if your hoping to get some value. The reinforcement points can be reallocated in summoning other units as well if you really want to. The whole thing can deep strike if you want your screen to be more forward.
mmimzie wrote: The 30 man squad is more flexible as you only really have to concentrate your auras and such on them. You can take a banner if your hoping to get some value. The reinforcement points can be reallocated in summoning other units as well if you really want to. The whole thing can deep strike if you want your screen to be more forward.
Additionally, if you can squeeze in a DG detachment and Pox Walkers you can do the whole Cloud of Flies/Dead Walk Again combo with the Pinks and build up your Pox Walker unit as Pink Horrors are dying. This combo was used very well at LVO, the guy just missed the top 8 with it (among other tricks of course).
"In relating the circumstances which have led to my confinement in this refuge for the demented, I am aware that my present position will create a natural doubt of the authenticity of my narrative."
Sorry to interrupt, but just picked up some Tzeentch stuff for a combination of Sigmar/Quest, and coincidentally a more 40k-based group I’m with have started a slow-grow campaign. From a quick skim of the discussions, can I assume that if I carried the Daemons over to 40k I’d need a more ... ecumenical approach?
Pilum wrote: Sorry to interrupt, but just picked up some Tzeentch stuff for a combination of Sigmar/Quest, and coincidentally a more 40k-based group I’m with have started a slow-grow campaign. From a quick skim of the discussions, can I assume that if I carried the Daemons over to 40k I’d need a more ... ecumenical approach?
Yes, multiple factions will make your list more flexible. If you're not inclined to venture outside the Daemons codex you're probably still in good shape, but Daemons currently benefit heavily from the inclusion of CSM and/or DG units (and I assume shortly from TS units).
"In relating the circumstances which have led to my confinement in this refuge for the demented, I am aware that my present position will create a natural doubt of the authenticity of my narrative."
Pilum wrote: Sorry to interrupt, but just picked up some Tzeentch stuff for a combination of Sigmar/Quest, and coincidentally a more 40k-based group I’m with have started a slow-grow campaign. From a quick skim of the discussions, can I assume that if I carried the Daemons over to 40k I’d need a more ... ecumenical approach?
Welcome soon to be greater daemon!!! May you serve the dark lord well and long before you are reabsorbed into thier greatness.
Anywho, you can most certain wield a mono daemons army into combat. However you really limit yourself quite considerably in options and play styles.
If you wish to serve a single chaos god I recommend you also include chaos space marine that also serve that God like death guard, world eaters, thousand sons, or emperors children (hope I got the right). This 2ill give you the desire levels of list variety.
If you wish to just play chaps daemons of strong recommend you run atleqst two gods as mono god lack variety in how you play. If you are dead set on playing mono god than I think nurgle and tzneetch have the most viable tools for.the job. Nurgle play up the syngery hammer really aggressively taking lots of bugs to make plague bearers super strong. While tzneetch is abit hordie and put out lots of shooting. Tzneetch is probably the only horde style army that is actualy manageable to spot as split means you don't have to move millions of models.
Anyway. With all that info. How do you think you'd wanna play your daemons??
Thanks chaps. The mixing is not a big deal really - more options is good and it’ll be different baddies for Quest/general RP after all! - it just would have been convenient for both systems.
Playstyle, mmimzie... well, that really is the $million question isn’t it? My other army is Craftworld Eldar and ideally I’d like something that plays sufficiently differently to keep interest (though if nothing else the painting is doing that!) although I appreciate the irony in then starting with what sounds like a comparatively fragile, psychic-heavy force! I like the idea, perhaps, of the comparative simplicity of just getting stuck in, though obviously there will be an element of “suck it and see” as I get games in.
I’ve always liked the ‘gotcha’ idea behind Horrors, so having that solid ‘horde-ish’ core there does have a certain appeal.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/02/02 21:17:09
Sorry for the delay folks. It has been a crazy week since I got back from LVO. Here is a basic rundown of how the list operated for me.
The primary function of the list was to give my opponent very little "good" targets to engage. The main units were obviously the Poxwalkers and the 30 man Pink Horrors. The ITC missions made me keep the Poxwalkers at 19 so as to not give up too much to Reaper.
The Poxwalkers would deploy in the Vortex Aquila turn 1 along with most of the characters. The Horrors would bubble wrap the building and the cultists and small horror squads would hide as best as possible until the first turn.
The first game turn would be pretty huge as the Horrors would move forward and position themselves to get some shots, while the Poxwalkers would advance out of the building and mix in as close to the Horrors as possible. They would pop both the Cloud of Flies and Dead Walk Again stratagems. This would make it so that my opponent would have 2 genuine options for targets. The building, or the Horrors. The building being T10 with 30 wounds made it fairly resilient, and if they killed the Horrors they would just split down and create Poxwalkers while they died. The key to learning the list was learning how to maximize placing Horrors and Poxwalkers in a way to not block your own movement and maximize your spread, as you can only place models within range of models that were on the table at the start of the phase.
Then in the psychic phase you would cast as many buff powers as you can on both the Horrors and the Poxwalkers and let them engage in their relevant phases. The vortex would most likely try to shoot either an easy kill if I needed it to get me a kill for the turn, or a threat (like a 10 man Reaper squad). I would often use the Gaze of Fate power in the psychic phase to get a reroll to reroll the number of shots if needed. The thought was pretty simple in that if I kill 1 thing, and my opponent kills none, then it still gets me the bonus.
I would then slowly spread into the table with Horrors and Poxwalkers and use the mass objective secured to control as much of the table as possible while denying my opponent any kills as long as possible.
That was the general gist of the list.
Feel free to ask any questions, I will try to answer as best I can.
3rd place league tournament
03-18-2018
2nd place league tournament
06-12-2018
3rd place league
tournament
12-09-2018
3rd place league tournament
01-13-2019
1st place league tournament
01-27-2019
1st place league
tournament
02-25-2019
I'm unsure why it was ruled the cloud of flies stratagem can be used after a unit has moved out of a transport, it seems worded to specifically disallow that.
Death Guard Battalion:
Typhus
DP of Nurgle w/wings and talons
19 Poxwalkers
10 Cultists
10 Cultists
Fortification Detachment
Vortex Aquila Stronpoint
The LVO judges ruled that as the unit inside was not being effected or targeted by an ability but only "selected" by the stratagem, it could be selected while inside the building, but unable to benefit from the stratagem until it was able to get out. So the Dead Walk again stratagem had to be used at the start of the phase, thus that was the way they ruled it.
So I have seen a lot of people talk about the pox walkers / pink horror combo, but I have yet to see anyone talk about a counter to this. How does someone counter such an army? Mass anti - infantry fire and simply try and wipe through moral?
ArtyomTrityak wrote: Okay so you have 30 pinks. You come, you shoot, next turn they got charged by for example 2 rhinos. What next? They stuck in melee forever?
next turn they fall back and aquila if needed annilate them or Dp/thypus poxwalkers charge in and remove at least 1 of them
3rd place league tournament
03-18-2018
2nd place league tournament
06-12-2018
3rd place league
tournament
12-09-2018
3rd place league tournament
01-13-2019
1st place league tournament
01-27-2019
1st place league
tournament
02-25-2019
Azuza001 wrote: So I have seen a lot of people talk about the pox walkers / pink horror combo, but I have yet to see anyone talk about a counter to this. How does someone counter such an army? Mass anti - infantry fire and simply try and wipe through moral?
Daemons morale is pretty punishing.
I actually play Pox walkers, and even I think the splitting+pox walkers thing is just evil.
Death Guard Battalion:
Typhus
DP of Nurgle w/wings and talons
19 Poxwalkers
10 Cultists
10 Cultists
Fortification Detachment
Vortex Aquila Stronpoint
The LVO judges ruled that as the unit inside was not being effected or targeted by an ability but only "selected" by the stratagem, it could be selected while inside the building, but unable to benefit from the stratagem until it was able to get out. So the Dead Walk again stratagem had to be used at the start of the phase, thus that was the way they ruled it.
ah yes thx, now i know who you are
3rd place league tournament
03-18-2018
2nd place league tournament
06-12-2018
3rd place league
tournament
12-09-2018
3rd place league tournament
01-13-2019
1st place league tournament
01-27-2019
1st place league
tournament
02-25-2019
Death Guard Battalion:
Typhus
DP of Nurgle w/wings and talons
19 Poxwalkers
10 Cultists
10 Cultists
Fortification Detachment
Vortex Aquila Stronpoint
The LVO judges ruled that as the unit inside was not being effected or targeted by an ability but only "selected" by the stratagem, it could be selected while inside the building, but unable to benefit from the stratagem until it was able to get out. So the Dead Walk again stratagem had to be used at the start of the phase, thus that was the way they ruled it.
ArtyomTrityak wrote: Okay so you have 30 pinks. You come, you shoot, next turn they got charged by for example 2 rhinos. What next? They stuck in melee forever?
They fall back and you kill the rhinos with other stuff?
Death Guard Battalion:
Typhus
DP of Nurgle w/wings and talons
19 Poxwalkers
10 Cultists
10 Cultists
Fortification Detachment
Vortex Aquila Stronpoint
The LVO judges ruled that as the unit inside was not being effected or targeted by an ability but only "selected" by the stratagem, it could be selected while inside the building, but unable to benefit from the stratagem until it was able to get out. So the Dead Walk again stratagem had to be used at the start of the phase, thus that was the way they ruled it.
ah yes thx, now i know who you are
I hope that is not necessarily a bad thing? lol
it is not..may i ask you an opinion after ur LVO experience? what would you play if you want play chaos soup list with alpha legion+demons and or Dg for example? im interested to know the opinion of an "almost" top 8 player, thanks a lot.. I would like to try ur list but i dont own the fortification not enough poxwalkers
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2018/02/03 19:45:32
3rd place league tournament
03-18-2018
2nd place league tournament
06-12-2018
3rd place league
tournament
12-09-2018
3rd place league tournament
01-13-2019
1st place league tournament
01-27-2019
1st place league
tournament
02-25-2019
Death Guard Battalion:
Typhus
DP of Nurgle w/wings and talons
19 Poxwalkers
10 Cultists
10 Cultists
Fortification Detachment
Vortex Aquila Stronpoint
The LVO judges ruled that as the unit inside was not being effected or targeted by an ability but only "selected" by the stratagem, it could be selected while inside the building, but unable to benefit from the stratagem until it was able to get out. So the Dead Walk again stratagem had to be used at the start of the phase, thus that was the way they ruled it.
Hmm. I wouldn’t build an all-comers list on the assumption that I could negotiate that every time. Nor will I be buying anything on the assumption that both ‘walking dead in transports’ or ‘infecting dead DAEMONs’ will survive the next FAQ. But more power to you for pulling off this terrifying farm! Did you get that ruling ahead of time from the TO, or did you argue the case when you arrived?
TwitchyReaper wrote: The LVO judges ruled that as the unit inside was not being effected or targeted by an ability but only "selected" by the stratagem, it could be selected while inside the building, but unable to benefit from the stratagem until it was able to get out. So the Dead Walk again stratagem had to be used at the start of the phase, thus that was the way they ruled it.
But the effect occurs when the stratagem is used. If the poxwalkers can't replace their Curse of the Walking Pox ability at that time, nothing happens. It doesn't just continuously reapply over and over throughout the game until it can affect the unit. That's even assuming they can be 'selected' in the first place, which is some dodgy rule bending in the first place.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/02/04 00:56:40
Is there a reason to word it "at the beginning of your movement phase" rather than "during" as some other stratagems are worded other than preventing its use on poxwalkers embarked in transports?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/02/03 22:13:05
