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Azuza001 wrote:

ntin wrote:
I haven't been really impressed the performance of 30 size units of troops (Daemonettes in my case). If they don't die in the shooting phase, then the morale phase will often finish off the unit. Has anyone tried running a large number of minimum size squads instead fewer max size squads?

That's interesting to hear. I was thinking of focusing my deamon army some. At the moment I have ....

25 deamonettes , 30 bloodletters, 20 pink horrors, 5 seekers, 3 plauge drones, 10 furies of nurgle, 10 hounds, a soulgrinder, a deamon prince, the masque, skulltaker, changeling, and karanak. I also have access to a lord of change, a keeper of secrets, and 2 bloodthirsters.

I was thinking of adding more deamonettes, more seekers, and maybe some chariots of some sort. But if numbers of deamonettes have lackluster returns I may not bother.

Not really for me though i have had very good luck with rolling 1s while using banners. I usually use 1 large block as a suicide screen block to keep the other 1 or 2 alive as i advance. mix with DP, character auras, and if you take severe losses ignore morale cp to negate morale.

Azuza001 wrote:

ntin wrote:
I haven't been really impressed the performance of 30 size units of troops (Daemonettes in my case). If they don't die in the shooting phase, then the morale phase will often finish off the unit. Has anyone tried running a large number of minimum size squads instead fewer max size squads?

That's interesting to hear. I was thinking of focusing my deamon army some. At the moment I have ....

25 deamonettes , 30 bloodletters, 20 pink horrors, 5 seekers, 3 plauge drones, 10 furies of nurgle, 10 hounds, a soulgrinder, a deamon prince, the masque, skulltaker, changeling, and karanak. I also have access to a lord of change, a keeper of secrets, and 2 bloodthirsters.

I was thinking of adding more deamonettes, more seekers, and maybe some chariots of some sort. But if numbers of deamonettes have lackluster returns I may not bother.

I am a big fan of seekers. For most deployment zones they have a reasonable chance to charge on turn 1.

Daemonettes (and Bloodletters) are T3 5++ with LD7. Any kind of shooting melts them. If you lose say 10 out of 30, for your morale check you are losing between 4 to 9 more automatically in the morale phase. You can deep strike Daemonettes but they will need 9+ or 8+ (with instrument) charge roll to get in. Where Bloodletters have more reliable means to charge from the deep strike. So you just spent 2CP to deep strike 30 daemonettes, and maybe another CP to reroll a charge dice. That is 2-3CP just to get a single unit into melee.

 rvd1ofakind wrote:

 blackmage wrote:

try to play sometimes and you will understand pretty well the real value of units.

Wtf is this? Really. What's the point of this? Are you monitoring and seeing that I'm/he isn't playing?

when one play enough have no need for mathammer, he perfectly know how units perform and unit performance isn't just based on how many casualty they inflict to enemy, but again to figure that you must play, enjoy, period.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

perrin23860 wrote:

 blackmage wrote:
horror bomb is far superior than devilgaunt bomb
1st they dont need an almost 200pts delivery system

Command point or two instead

2nd they are more more resilient with a 3++ inv save

Another command point assumed

3rd they shot at +1 to wound rr 1 to wound with demonspark

Yet another command point, lol, and psychic power required

4th if you have spare point they can split

Valid, but so is spending points on the delivery system for devilgaunts

Depend what kind of list tyr plays, against some might be marginally effective, against some other can be a real pain in the ass, able to remove 2-3 units in a turn.

Devilgaunts can ignore moral too, which horrors won't, barring having skarbrand nearby.

Did I mention devilgaunts can fire twice for less command points than you've assumed for your horrors. 180 shots. It would take 2 units of 30 to equal that, and a lot more command points to deliver them, in an already command point hungry army.

Sorry but I get annoyed at the theory hammer that automatically assumes command point benefits in a dynamic game, where choosing to use them is very situational at times. Sure, give your horrors a 3++, I'll shoot at something else :/, or possibly just attempt to take away their save altogether with a psychic power

good luck i play both devilgants bomb and horror bomb and i can tell horror bomb is pretty more dangerous, that wont sat devilgaunts are weak....thanks

 blackmage wrote:

when one play enough have no need for mathammer, he perfectly know how units perform and unit performance isn't just based on how many casualty they inflict to enemy, but again to figure that you must play, enjoy, period.

So if I roll hot 3 times in a row and make the Skarbrand 9'' sharge - does that suddenly mean he's the best unit in the game? NO. Stop shoving your anecdotal evidence down people's throats: "play enough".
Your personal results do not matter in the slightest unless you are consistently topping GTs and Majors.
The results that matter are:
Data from tournaments
Statistics (Mathammer)
Input from pros

You can take your flamers, burning chariots, skull cannons, whatever and win every RTT in your neighborhood. Then come out to the LVO/BAO/Nova/SoCal and go 2:4 at best.

Yeah, he lost me at have no need for mathhammer...

As a side note, I'm trying hard to build a Thricefold Befoulement list, as I'm picking up the box when my taxes come in. I deserve it! I posted a list in the army forum, if anyone is interested.

My question to you guys here is given that I'm determined to run 3 great unclean ones at 2000 pts, what's optimal for their loadout, and support? One fellow suggested that I'd need horde control, and I tend to agree. What does nurgle have that best deals with hordes? I could do a nurgle soup if I needed to stay competitive.

Originally, I was thinking of one or two having the bell and trying to use that to the best with many plague drones and nurglings near them. But their damage output goes way down with the bell. Do you think I'd need to deepstrike them, or is footslogging viable? They should be able to advance and charge with either the bilepiper or the garden in the list.

Thank for any insights.

I'd like to add a Daemon detachment to my Thousand Sons but I'm torn between Horrors and Flamers. I plan on DSing them.

Horrors are more resilient but suffer from Morale issues while Flamers have higher mobility and similar damage output.

What would you guys recommend ?

I don't know about 'similar damage output' - I'm pretty sure the Horrors outperform the Flamers against most targets, especially in squads of more than 20. If you are going to have some elements in place that can mitigate potential morale issues then Horrors are the way to go (although they are probably the way tpo go anyway from an efficiency standpoint). Nothing wrong with taking both either.

1500pts RTT
2nd place. 2 wins 1 draw, same as first place. Both ran bloodletters, he souped it up with world eaters. We drew game 1 and he got the easier oppoenent game 2 where he farmed up points (I got Eldar with all their guardian, shining spear, dark reaper BS). So he won on pts at the end of the tournament.

My list was:
Skullreaver DP (dies too fast as everyone and their mother can ignore the character rule somehow)
Skulltaker (just outright meh)
3x 20 letters (should be max 2 squads with only 19 to avoid giving away reaper pts) Also scouts everywhere

2x Tz herald (1 warlord with flickering) - just AWFUL showing as they failed 80% of their casts. ugh
30 pinks - they're just amazing. The durability + damage is still amazing.
brimstones (great, camped backfield, gave me CP for batallions. Seems good)

2 nurgle heralds - too expensive
3x 3 nurglings (great)

Thinking of ditching some, souping up tz and nurgle. And maybe going more heavy on exalted flamers and maybe another 30 pinks? If all my games went the distance, I'd be 0-3. I just lose 80+ models in 2 turns through the 5++ and huge morale losses. Rolled a single 1 on Icons in 3 games.

What was your friend's soup with the Bloodletters + World Eaters?

 Nym wrote:
I'd like to add a Daemon detachment to my Thousand Sons but I'm torn between Horrors and Flamers. I plan on DSing them.

Horrors are more resilient but suffer from Morale issues while Flamers have higher mobility and similar damage output.

What would you guys recommend ?

Three Flamer units will be noticeably weaker than three Horror units against most targets other than banzai chargers who don’t carry guns. They’ll also eat 2CP to DS them all in, whereas a Battalion of Horrors will self-fund their Stratagems.

I’d probably recommend 2x20 Pink Horrors to DS, 10 Brimstones to screen something, 2 Heralds on discs (or chariot, if you like) to buff their flames, and a DP in your TS to rendezvous and make them miss less (and get a S boost & casting re-rolls off a Herald).

 andysonic1 wrote:
What was your friend's soup with the Bloodletters + World Eaters?

Yup. Full r-tard melee. He dodged eldar, which would've DESTROYED him (and which I got and only won because he can't play Eldar fast enough and I farmed up points before the game was stopped)

Here's how fun the eldar game was:
48'' missle launcher warlord sniping my heralds, 2x 5 rangers doing the same. Snipers are so dumb... Anyway, I threw bodies upon bodies upon bodies at him, so the time ran out and I won with next to nothing left by a few VPs on turn 3...

Yes but what was the melee list?

2x 20 letters, skullreaver DP
khorne DP, jump pack chaos lord, 2 rhinos with 4x5 berzerkers, and some cultists

Basically a list with a huge weakness: screen + long range shooting to blow up rhinos. And I did not have the 2nd part. We tied. His next opponent was a filthy casual. The last fkd up with the screen or so I was told.

There is a local tournament end of march and I think of joining in with stuff I have already painted or were a minimum amount of work is needed (to have a fully painted army, so nothing that exceeds 3 weeks of work), so no Nurgle or Slaanesh and no Greater Daemons.

My first version is more about what I would like to put on the table:

++ Battalion Detachment +3CP (Chaos - Daemons) [60 PL, 1046pts] ++
Chaos Allegiance: Tzeentch

+ HQ +
Fluxmaster [5 PL, 104pts]: Staff of Change
Fluxmaster [5 PL, 104pts]: Staff of Change
The Changeling [5 PL, 100pts]

+ Troops +
Horrors [8 PL, 140pts]: 20x Pink Horror
Horrors [4 PL, 30pts]: 10x Pair of Brimstone Horrors
Horrors [4 PL, 30pts]: 10x Pair of Brimstone Horrors

+ Elites +
Exalted Flamer [5 PL, 90pts]
Exalted Flamer [5 PL, 90pts]
Exalted Flamer [5 PL, 90pts]
Flamers [8 PL, 168pts]: 5x Flamer, Pyrocaster

+ Fast Attack +
Furies [3 PL, 50pts]: 5x Fury, Mark of Tzeentch
Furies [3 PL, 50pts]: 5x Fury, Mark of Tzeentch

++ Outrider Detachment +1CP (Chaos - Daemons) [21 PL, 405pts] ++
Chaos Allegiance: Khorne

+ HQ +
Daemon Prince of Chaos [9 PL, 180pts]: Daemonic axe, Khorne, Wings

+ Fast Attack +
Flesh Hounds [4 PL, 75pts]: 5x Flesh Hound
Flesh Hounds [4 PL, 75pts]: 5x Flesh Hound
Flesh Hounds [4 PL, 75pts]: 5x Flesh Hound

++ Supreme Command Detachment +1CP (Chaos - Thousand Sons) [27 PL, 540pts] ++

+ HQ +
Daemon Prince of Tzeentch [9 PL, 180pts]: Hellforged sword, Wings
Daemon Prince of Tzeentch [9 PL, 180pts]: Hellforged sword, Wings
Daemon Prince of Tzeentch [9 PL, 180pts]: Hellforged sword, Wings

++ Total: [108 PL, 1991pts] ++


what bother me now is
using screamers instead of furies (those are there as fast screening unit) or are the flesh hounds enough fast screening?
skipping the TS Princes and use regular ones instead (allow me to add another Fluxmaster)?
using TS or Damon Relics?
skip the Khorne stuff and use more Exalted Flamers and/or Brimstones?
Add in another Khorne Prince or a Bloodthirster

"no Slaanesh and no Greater Daemons" - ah, so business as usual
Might want to paint some nurglings though.

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
"no Slaanesh and no Greater Daemons" .

I am not going to replace my old GD with the new ones, but as they are too small I don't want to risk complaints using the old ones as something else than a Prince

Otherwise there would be Kairos, a Bloodthirster and 3 Princes available.

and I still have 20 Seekers here but don't think I manage to build and paint them up in time

Is a Warp Bolter on a CD Daemon Prince the index cost?

Only the CSM one was dropped in pts. Which direction in the flow chart does this one go in?

The Faction is the same, the weapon the same but it is different army, different data sheet, so different points cost right? The Warp Bolter isn't even listed in Codex so strictly using the Index, we pay full price, Yay or nay?

 Nightlord1987 wrote:
Is a Warp Bolter on a CD Daemon Prince the index cost?

Only the CSM one was dropped in pts. Which direction in the flow chart does this one go in?

The Faction is the same, the weapon the same but it is different army, different data sheet, so different points cost right? The Warp Bolter isn't even listed in Codex so strictly using the Index, we pay full price, Yay or nay?

I'm under the impression that you use the latest datasheet for your unit. The Daemon Prince in the Daemon Codex does not have the Warp Bolter option, so he doesn't get it at all.

Well, except for when wargear option is missing...

Per the last page of the Developer's Commentary found on the FAQs page https://www.warhammer-community.com/faqs/
https://whc-cdn.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/warhammer_40000_designers_commentary_en-1.pdf

Codex: Chaos Daemon, Daemon Prince can still take a warp bolter but at the cost found in Index: Chaos (9pts). Where a Codex: Chaos Marine, Daemon Prince pays 3pts for a warp bolter because it is in that codex.

ntin wrote:
Per the last page of the Developer's Commentary found on the FAQs page https://www.warhammer-community.com/faqs/
https://whc-cdn.games-workshop.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/11/warhammer_40000_designers_commentary_en-1.pdf

Codex: Chaos Daemon, Daemon Prince can still take a warp bolter but at the cost found in Index: Chaos (9pts). Where a Codex: Chaos Marine, Daemon Prince pays 3pts for a warp bolter because it is in that codex.

Well good they can use it and dumb that it's still 9 points. I would take it every time otherwise.

Yea, I figured it was gonna be that way. I have 3 pts remaining in my list :/ oh well.

Something to mention to the other Daemon players in my area.

Tomorrow I'll get the last bulk of my khorne army in (excluding skarbrand, still in the mail). I should have a magnetized thirster, 20 hounds, 6 crushers (I know, they suck right?) 3 cannons and I think 82 bloodletters, skulltaker, few heralds and DP.

I'm thinking of finally trying out the bloodletter shotgun with 30, 30 and 20 bloodletters on the table. skulltaker and axe DP as HQ. Then filling the rest with nurgling battalions and tossing some other nurgle units in.

I know a tzeentch battalion for screen killing is suggested, but I don't have a big enough pink horror blob yet. Are there any upgrades or tactics that have changed for khorne lately that I should know about?

A kind of cool rule loophole for Slaanesh players was brought up in this thread https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/751798.page due to GW's ambivalence towards this sub-faction.

The tl;dr; version is the +1S aura for the Herald of Slaanesh is named differently than the Index Slaanesh Heralds (Herald of Slaanesh on Steed, Herald of Slaanesh on Seeker Chariot, and Herald of Slaanesh on Exalted Seeker Chariot). Allowing Slaanesh units to get +2S if the codex herald and one of the index heralds are used in conjunction.

This is a bit more ridiculous question but, for chariots, how would you recommend I situate my model on the base for the best effective charging circumference? Is that even a thing to think about?

GW has pictures of the chariots being put on length wise down the oval and width wise. Wondering if one is better or just looks cooler.

Interesting, wouldn’t this apply to Herald of Nurgle / poxbringer aswell? That + epidemius would be str 10 pbc or str 8 drones without epidemius. Or are they named the same?

Gremmer wrote:
Interesting, wouldn’t this apply to Herald of Nurgle / poxbringer aswell? That + epidemius would be str 10 pbc or str 8 drones without epidemius. Or are they named the same?

I don't have my Index: Chaos handy but if Nurgle has Herald units that didn't make it into Codex: Chaos Daemons, then yes. Only the Herald of Slaanesh made it into Codex Chaos Daemons (and it is still called Herald of Slaanesh, it didn't get renamed).

There might be an argument The Poxbringer and Herald of Nurgle, are different units because they were renamed? Codex: Chaos Daemons is the only release I am aware of they renamed so many units from the index.

The Herald of Nurgle/Tzeentch/Khorne are much murkier waters than Slaanesh. The designers commentary talk about what to do if your model doesn't have a data sheet in the codex. Your Herald of Nurgle model does in the form of the Poxbringer data sheet.

So in answer to the question, no, you can't bring a Herald of Nurgle and a poxbringer as the poxbringer datasheet is the updated version for the model.

JakeSiren wrote:
The Herald of Nurgle/Tzeentch/Khorne are much murkier waters than Slaanesh. The designers commentary talk about what to do if your model doesn't have a data sheet in the codex. Your Herald of Nurgle model does in the form of the Poxbringer data sheet.

So in answer to the question, no, you can't bring a Herald of Nurgle and a poxbringer as the poxbringer datasheet is the updated version for the model.

Do have any reference or rule precedent to back up that statement?

There is no data card in Codex: Chaos Daemons called for an HQ unit called “Herald of Nurgle”. I can say that my model analog for the “Herald of Nurgle” data card and not the “Poxbringer” data card. As “Herald of Nurgle” is not present in Codex: Chaos Daemons.

The first box in the flow chart in the developer commentary asks "DOES YOUR MODEL HAVE A DATASHEET IN A CODEX?". My "Herald of Nurgle" does not have a data sheet, so I default to the index.

RAI we can infer that the “Poxbringer” is the replacement data card for the “Herald of Nurgle” but there is no rule or faq/errata that symbolically links these two data cards from the index and codex. We are just making well-informed assumption that is what GW intended.

ntin wrote:

JakeSiren wrote:
The Herald of Nurgle/Tzeentch/Khorne are much murkier waters than Slaanesh. The designers commentary talk about what to do if your model doesn't have a data sheet in the codex. Your Herald of Nurgle model does in the form of the Poxbringer data sheet.

So in answer to the question, no, you can't bring a Herald of Nurgle and a poxbringer as the poxbringer datasheet is the updated version for the model.

Do have any reference or rule precedent to back up that statement?

There is no data card in Codex: Chaos Daemons called for an HQ unit called “Herald of Nurgle”. I can say that my model analog for the “Herald of Nurgle” data card and not the “Poxbringer” data card. As “Herald of Nurgle” is not present in Codex: Chaos Daemons.

The first box in the flow chart in the developer commentary asks "DOES YOUR MODEL HAVE A DATASHEET IN A CODEX?". My "Herald of Nurgle" does not have a data sheet, so I default to the index.

RAI we can infer that the “Poxbringer” is the replacement data card for the “Herald of Nurgle” but there is no rule or faq/errata that symbolically links these two data cards from the index and codex. We are just making well-informed assumption that is what GW intended.

Which part? Rules about which datasheet to use for a model are in the designers commentary. The models are the same, ergo you use the updated data sheet.

On the other side, I can always deny you from using Poxbringers by disallowing proxies and insisting that you use the correct models to represent your army. As the "Poxbringer" is the same sculpt as the "Herald of Nurgle", you have no way to demonstrate that that specific model is a poxbringer, and not a Herald of Nurgle.