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Has anyone had any joy with Soul Grinders or are they as bad as they look on paper?

Anyone tried to play with the blue scribes and can pass judgment on them?

They look pretty darn good on paper (especially that with a lucky roll they double down on a spell, and that's usually impossible), and with safe automatic casting you really can't get a bad result, only a non-result (and that can happen to any caster really)

But I still have some reservations...not sure if they are worth the effort or not...

I have been running a Alpha legion epidemious list. It’s worked pretty well for me. The core of the list is a Daemon battalion supported by Deathguard and or alpha legion and Deathguard. What I’ve learned.

Gunlines facing 20 infiltrating possessed get wiped out. While possessed are pretty lack luster in most roles, they benefit from both the daemons spell line and the spell lines of CSM and DG. They help support the tally and are really tough to dislodge once they make it into melee. I feel like they are hit or miss and since 20 of them is 440 pts, I feel like the cultists are a better option. Cutltists are so much cheaper, and by spreading out their shooting amongst my foes chaff I can whittle units down to just a few men making it easier for other units to score the kill for the tally. They also spread out to multi charge more units and benefit from tide of traitors. However, facing a tau gunline I got solidly mowed down recently. Not sure how to deal with 2 commanders and a riptide.

I’m not sold on chaos space marine daemon princes. Lacking disgusting resilience is pretty big. I almost feel like dropping the prince and including a sorcerer with a jump pack to act as a support unit would be more effective. Being able to cast 2 spells instead of one and being only 2/3 the price of the prince seems like a better deal.

Defiler are not all that great but they serve a dual purpose of guarding epidemious and for 1 cp their shooting or melee ability can be pretty stellar. They are also very punchy in melee.

Everyone says I should add a tree to the list. Not sure.

Nurglings are stellar but I have yet to see plague bearers really rock the house. Usually they soak up a ton of fire and just die. In one game they helped me win vs a IG armored company. They fought their way to a baneblade and put a wound on it while tying up numerous tanks. They rock.

Epidemious
Spoilpox scrivener
30 plague bearers plus instrument deepstriking in for 2 cp
2 nurgling squads for area Denile early on

Flysworn (alphalegion Nurgle) spearhead.
3 squads of obliterators
Daemonprince

Sometimes a defiler with lascannon and scourge or 20 possessed and or 40 cultists. .

I mean, you can't go wrong with 0+ fallback and shoot obliterators. Tree is OP for 50 pts.

kaptin_Blacksquigg wrote:
Has anyone had any joy with Soul Grinders or are they as bad as they look on paper?

I ran one last week, spent the CP to deep strike it and had it as Khorne. It made it's charge into a sicarian and a razorback. The +4 to hit, and D3 or D6 dmg is a bit rough. If the warp claw was a flat 2, I think it would find a bit more use. It wasn't as bad as I had thought, as it was the final straw that made my opponent throw in the towel, but it wasn't as good as I had hoped either. 12 attacks with the warp claw is fun to roll, as was 6 with the iron claw, but statistics were not in my favor.

I'll be running them again. They are bad, from a competitive standpoint. A soul grinder in a tournament list will probably never happen. Casual games, they are OK. Honestly, they are still about as good as they used to be, not good enough for a tournament, but not so bad you give up the game if you bring one. The lack of options is what hurts it right now, you HAVE to have phlegm. If I could get a cheaper grinder without phlegm, I would do it every time. Also, no more baleful torrent or gaze stinks pretty hard.

@sennacheribMade
My PB blobs haven't really rocked the house, but a blob of 30 is very hard to move and make for a really decent wall to trap pretty much whatever you want. If you want to waste miasma on them, a -2 to hit makes them nearly impossible to kill. I'm planning on trying 2x30, and dropping a tree in range so they can fall back and charge over and over. It wont win tournaments, but it will frustrate just about anyone when their whole army is in CC with PB.

 BoomWolf wrote:
Anyone tried to play with the blue scribes and can pass judgment on them?

They look pretty darn good on paper (especially that with a lucky roll they double down on a spell, and that's usually impossible), and with safe automatic casting you really can't get a bad result, only a non-result (and that can happen to any caster really)

But I still have some reservations...not sure if they are worth the effort or not...

The problem I have with them is the lack of +1 aura, (which is the main reason for including heralds) so for 100ish points all you get is 1 random spell a turn and a weak psychic defence (not an area we struggle with). Combine this with zero shooting or assualt threat and it doesn't add up to a good deal for me.

kaptin_Blacksquigg wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:
Anyone tried to play with the blue scribes and can pass judgment on them?

They look pretty darn good on paper (especially that with a lucky roll they double down on a spell, and that's usually impossible), and with safe automatic casting you really can't get a bad result, only a non-result (and that can happen to any caster really)

But I still have some reservations...not sure if they are worth the effort or not...

The problem I have with them is the lack of +1 aura, (which is the main reason for including heralds) so for 100ish points all you get is 1 random spell a turn and a weak psychic defence (not an area we struggle with). Combine this with zero shooting or assualt threat and it doesn't add up to a good deal for me.

I've actually found the Blue Scribes quite useful myself. The big upsides are:
1) Area denial for enemy psykers. They will actively avoid where the Blue Scribes are on the chance that they will fail the spell they want to cast and lose it.
2) Better chance of you denying enemy powers when they are in range of the Blue Scribes. Did they roll a 7? Well it's a 6 now and you only need to roll a 7 rather than an 8.
3) Good for shutting down close combat psykers - they have a good movement stat, so can get close enough to an enemy in combat.
4) Pairs well with Burning Chariot with Chanting Horrors, and Fiends of Slaanesh. If you can work it, a net -3 to cast will make your opponent rethink their casting choices.

Does it make sense to bring a "value" herald of slaanesh? at 66 points and 1 psychic ability it isn't that awful. Much worse than the prior malefic lord spam but still a relatively cheap pyscker for smite / deny.

However, the real point I am suggesting is the ability to use the slaanesh strat after heroically intervening to lower attacks by 1 - for example against shining spears - khorne berzerkers - blood angel chargers - etc. It seems relatively meta for 66 points and 1 cp. Bonus is that in the right environment the slaanesh symphony of pain is quite reliable - goes of on a 6 with 18 inch range and IF you hit a juicy with it -1 to hit can significantly impact a core enemy unit (such as a primach, shining spear spam, cultist blobs, etc.).

I am discussing from a competitive level and not a local hobby shop fun to play point - I don't think you would take the daemon detachment as slaanesh as generally the slaanesh models aren't great - but mix this in with maybe even a nurgle detach or other and it could be decent? The detachment benefits for pure daemons are good but dont' seem to be earth shattering.

orkswubwub wrote:
Does it make sense to bring a "value" herald of slaanesh? at 66 points and 1 psychic ability it isn't that awful. Much worse than the prior malefic lord spam but still a relatively cheap pyscker for smite / deny.

However, the real point I am suggesting is the ability to use the slaanesh strat after heroically intervening to lower attacks by 1 - for example against shining spears - khorne berzerkers - blood angel chargers - etc. It seems relatively meta for 66 points and 1 cp. Bonus is that in the right environment the slaanesh symphony of pain is quite reliable - goes of on a 6 with 18 inch range and IF you hit a juicy with it -1 to hit can significantly impact a core enemy unit (such as a primach, shining spear spam, cultist blobs, etc.).

I am discussing from a competitive level and not a local hobby shop fun to play point - I don't think you would take the daemon detachment as slaanesh as generally the slaanesh models aren't great - but mix this in with maybe even a nurgle detach or other and it could be decent? The detachment benefits for pure daemons are good but dont' seem to be earth shattering.

As you kind of allude to it's a sort of meta type of thing. Not to mention there are a few other questions to be asked here.

Is your herald of slannesh going to survive it's brave track into melee combat??? i don't know :/ seems converning for them for sure.

Then we have to consider. Why not just spend more points just killing the unit beforei t gets a chance to hit you in the first place??? What are we bringing to bare in melee that isn't able to maybe attack first??? Blood letters get into the fight first and pinks are already dead if the yare fighting in the first place. Greater daemons are so big that your slannesh herald can struggle to heroic intervine around the base to make it into combat.

Also this slannesh herald needs to make it to the front line in the first place. How does the herald pull this off. Are you deep striking the herald??? Or is the herald hoofing it and advancing trying to keep pace with the very tippy front of your lines.??

I tried it for abit and i just felt like the herald didn't provide enough that i couldn't just get from having other models. As you say it's a meta choice and it's something thats only as good as the current tournament meta, but even in those good situations i wonder if its worth it.

I sometimes do it. It has also been done on some highplacing lists. Not a bad idea.

orkswubwub wrote:
Does it make sense to bring a "value" herald of slaanesh? at 66 points and 1 psychic ability it isn't that awful. Much worse than the prior malefic lord spam but still a relatively cheap pyscker for smite / deny.

However, the real point I am suggesting is the ability to use the slaanesh strat after heroically intervening to lower attacks by 1 - for example against shining spears - khorne berzerkers - blood angel chargers - etc. It seems relatively meta for 66 points and 1 cp. Bonus is that in the right environment the slaanesh symphony of pain is quite reliable - goes of on a 6 with 18 inch range and IF you hit a juicy with it -1 to hit can significantly impact a core enemy unit (such as a primach, shining spear spam, cultist blobs, etc.).

I am discussing from a competitive level and not a local hobby shop fun to play point - I don't think you would take the daemon detachment as slaanesh as generally the slaanesh models aren't great - but mix this in with maybe even a nurgle detach or other and it could be decent? The detachment benefits for pure daemons are good but dont' seem to be earth shattering.

I sometimes use a herald of slaanesh on steed, it's only 16 more pts than the regular herald but it gets 14" move, auto advance 6", the ability to advance and charge, plus 2 attacks from the steed itself. It's definitely shot to tanks to keep them occupied, or finishing off infantry units

I see it more as a defensive option against alpha strike.

Most units that want to melee you will come to you really and the ability to drop those attacks down a profile can be significant. Probably most relevant on turns 1-2.

The model itself may not do much else but throw out a smite or a -1 to hit depending on what is in range - and I would be ok with the 66 point insurance policy. I have to play it a bit - as the radius on the strat is a huge concern I think.

I do see the value from the steed in the sense that it lets you choose where the pyschic abilities go - but then the relative investment is much larger for what you may be getting (depending on how ambitious you are about maximizing the actual melee attack value of the unit)

Has anyone done well with pure Khorne Daemons. I'm trying to debate on doing pure Khorne Daemons or mixing Daemons with World Eaters.

(right now I only have a start collecting Khorne Daemons, DP with wings, and another box of blood letters, I'm looking to build between 1000, 1500 points)

Khorne does really good deepstriking horde, but I feel it needs a little support. Chaos Marine daemons synergize really well with it. A CSM daemon prince and a Sorcerer (yes yes how awful) with some ranged antitank like Obliterators can shore up the Khorne weaknesses.

 Badablack wrote:
Khorne does really good deepstriking horde, but I feel it needs a little support. Chaos Marine daemons synergize really well with it. A CSM daemon prince and a Sorcerer (yes yes how awful) with some ranged antitank like Obliterators can shore up the Khorne weaknesses.

Aye, this is exactly what I added to my WE:
A base 1k pts of WE (berzerkers, terminators and characters)
AL support detachment to add another 3CP, some Oblits and psychic support
A Daemons support detachment with a 30 man Bloodletters unit supported by a Daemon Prince and a Herald (I'm also experimenting with whether another unit of Bloodletters or a unit of Horrors is better to deepstrike in with.

I'm running WE/Khorne Demons as well, although I've gone for a full-melee army (and restricting myself to World Eaters, so no pesky psykers) just to see how well it can do without shooting support (read: Obliterators). It's not going to dominate higher-tier lists, but between a Bloodthirster, two Daemon Princes and three Bloodletter Bombs there's a lot of fast melee threats, and a bunch of Cultists can easily provide screening and Command Points at a modest price.

I also run a Khorne Daemonkin army (Daemons/CSM soup) and it is a fantastic and fun army. Often times I find although on paper it's redundent to bring Bezerkers AND Bloodletters, the bloodletters will always get more fire directed on them, while your party vans can roll up the battlefield unharmed.

Also, take Skull Cannons. They're legit great now.

 vaklor4 wrote:
I also run a Khorne Daemonkin army (Daemons/CSM soup) and it is a fantastic and fun army. Often times I find although on paper it's redundent to bring Bezerkers AND Bloodletters, the bloodletters will always get more fire directed on them, while your party vans can roll up the battlefield unharmed.

This is very true; after I brought in my Bloodletter bomb down in my opponents face one game, they counter deep struck behind my Bloodletters with most of their army. Suffice to say, I think they regretted putting so much fire into the Bloodletters when two party vans were parked not too far away.

Hey my dudes. New CSM player here. My planned army lacks much CC. (Only Abby and a dp). I'm thinking of trying to squeeze in a min squad of bloodletters or demonettes to summon as a counter charge unit. The idea I read early on in this thread was to wait until locked in combat, summon and charge the rear, which mitigates the movement penalty and losses from shooting. Just wondering what the deamon tactica community thinks of this strat. And, if a good idea, the best way to make it work.

Am slowly making my way through this thread a page or so at a time, currently page 20ish. So forgive me if this has been covered in detail already.

Also wanted to confirm that units kept in the summoning pool dont count towards force org slots.

Cheers guys.

the_Jakman wrote:
Hey my dudes. New CSM player here. My planned army lacks much CC. (Only Abby and a dp). I'm thinking of trying to squeeze in a min squad of bloodletters or demonettes to summon as a counter charge unit. The idea I read early on in this thread was to wait until locked in combat, summon and charge the rear, which mitigates the movement penalty and losses from shooting. Just wondering what the deamon tactica community thinks of this strat. And, if a good idea, the best way to make it work.

Am slowly making my way through this thread a page or so at a time, currently page 20ish. So forgive me if this has been covered in detail already.

Also wanted to confirm that units kept in the summoning pool dont count towards force org slots.

Cheers guys.

I wouldn't summon. I'd grab a small daemon detachment with a unit of 30 Bloodletters and a Herald of Khorne + whatever to fill out detachments: summoning is too unreliable and you lose access to daemon stratagems and bonuses.

Summoning is only worth it in non-Matched play where it’s free units, or in static play with foresight. In proper balanced play and in reactive situations, it’s really weak, only really done when you’ve taken Horrors and they’re not getting shot at so you spend your Reinforcement Points on something else. Summoning in the rear of a unit you’re fighting is also very unreliable as it depends on there being more than 18” between your opponent’s chargers and other units, like their gunline or drop pods etc.

For a counter-charge unit, something fast and choppy is good. Flesh Hounds have a long reach and low profile that can hug cover. For 1CP they can be a single unit Detachment, or they can be added to a Herald and some Nurglings in a Patrol, or a static gunline can summon them whilst the enemy is approaching. Fiends can also be handy (tag a Land Raider and it’s basically out of the game). When I have a list with a Chaos Lord overseeing two units of Havocs and some Cultists, I’ll often keep both to hand.

 lindsay40k wrote:
Summoning is only worth it in non-Matched play where it’s free units, or in static play with foresight. In proper balanced play and in reactive situations, it’s really weak, only really done when you’ve taken Horrors and they’re not getting shot at so you spend your Reinforcement Points on something else. Summoning in the rear of a unit you’re fighting is also very unreliable as it depends on there being more than 18” between your opponent’s chargers and other units, like their gunline or drop pods etc.

For a counter-charge unit, something fast and choppy is good. Flesh Hounds have a long reach and low profile that can hug cover. For 1CP they can be a single unit Detachment, or they can be added to a Herald and some Nurglings in a Patrol, or a static gunline can summon them whilst the enemy is approaching. Fiends can also be handy (tag a Land Raider and it’s basically out of the game). When I have a list with a Chaos Lord overseeing two units of Havocs and some Cultists, I’ll often keep both to hand.

I'd say if your running splitting horrors. Having some flamers on hand to summon instead should your opponent ignore the horrors is probably a good idea, but otherwise i agree with you wisdom.

If your opponent can shoot your bloodletters after they deepstrike - you're usually doing something wrong. Surround surround surround

Thanks guys. I might just stick to my original plan of having 3 spawn as a detatchment tax/deep strike blocking/counter charge. Points wise i could squeeze in a squad of 10 bloodletters but not much more. 30+ a herald would force me to cut stuff from the main part of my army. I appreciate the input

When splitting horrors how many points do you put aside and how many times do you generally split them. Do you just keep on splitting until your opponent gets sick of trying to take them out?

Do people even still really save the points for splitting now? Doesn't seem like anyone I play with really bothers with blue or brims much since the new book. Maybe a few brims for obj holders but not as a Pink split

Dew wrote:
Do people even still really save the points for splitting now? Doesn't seem like anyone I play with really bothers with blue or brims much since the new book. Maybe a few brims for obj holders but not as a Pink split

Brims are all but useless at this point, aside from ovjectice holders as you said. But even then, deepstriking pinks to hold it is still better, since they can fight off contestents.

Brims are not “useless”.

They take up space for 75% fewer points than Cultists and have higher Ld, dying slower to Heavy Bolters or Bolt/Guass Rifles and speedbumping deep insertion forces.

Two units of them provide a unit of thirty good Troops with the CP they need to DS and an extra one besides.

 mrhappyface wrote:

the_Jakman wrote:
Hey my dudes. New CSM player here. My planned army lacks much CC. (Only Abby and a dp). I'm thinking of trying to squeeze in a min squad of bloodletters or demonettes to summon as a counter charge unit. The idea I read early on in this thread was to wait until locked in combat, summon and charge the rear, which mitigates the movement penalty and losses from shooting. Just wondering what the deamon tactica community thinks of this strat. And, if a good idea, the best way to make it work.

Am slowly making my way through this thread a page or so at a time, currently page 20ish. So forgive me if this has been covered in detail already.

Also wanted to confirm that units kept in the summoning pool dont count towards force org slots.

Cheers guys.

I wouldn't summon. I'd grab a small daemon detachment with a unit of 30 Bloodletters and a Herald of Khorne + whatever to fill out detachments: summoning is too unreliable and you lose access to daemon stratagems and bonuses.

Summoned units don't count towards force org slots. For list building purposes, they are points you can use towards summoning anything you want.

People have a lot of concerns about summoning, but I think it's an underrated tactic. There's no doubt a Daemons detachment with a Herald and a max-sized unit of Bloodletters will perform better on the tabletop in most situations.

But summoning is not about maximizing the efficiency of units, it's about opportunity. There are situations where summoning works well and can make or break a game. Being locked in combat is one of them, there's no disadvantage to summoning when you can't move. Having a character exposed is another, it's great when you can call in a screen while you do something else.

Most often, I am summoning 4th or 5th turn, and it's usually to clear something off an objective. I'm usually summoning 10 or 20 Bloodletters (I've gotten 30 a total of 2 times,) and their job is to threaten Heavy Infantry. If I have 2 characters, I summon 2 units.

If they get the charge, great, otherwise they take shots - no one wants to charge Bloodletters. They don't get the morale bonuses you get with other CSM infantry, nor are they subject to the 3rd turn reserve rules in 8th edition. So they create a nice late-game surprise for someone who thought they had objectives locked up.

In terms of the best way to make it work - the basic odds of summoning 20 Bloodletters are about 66%, the odds of summoning 10 are around 95%. Keep a command point for rerolls and you improve your changes to around 80% for 20.

Seen some conflicting opinions on Chaos Demons and Battleforged armies. To get the benefit of characters providing a Loci, the detachment must all be the same alignment. Is that correct? Does that locus apply to models of the same alignment from other detachments? Are the loci worth including tax troop choices (other than nurglings) for?