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Tzeentch was strong before the FAQ - is there a reason it is now considered hot garbage? Even the furthest deployment is 24 inches which is pink horror range - now with more CP you can make em 3++ fairly easily / routine and also make them the only thing the opponent can shoot - with some splitting will be a tough nut to crack (can do this for like 3-4 turns instead of 1-2 before). I know the lack of DS is annoying to optimally position them but is there a reason they are now considered unplayable?

LoC with a permanent 2++ now seems possible which can be a hot damage sink... Likely not competitive but maybe peeking in?

Dactylartha wrote:
Can someone help me understand how the Unstoppable Ferocity affects Skarbrand weapons? Does it add +1 after the multiplier now instead of before?

Page 85
– Unstoppable Ferocity
Change the rules text to read:
‘If this unit makes a charge move, is charged, or
performs a Heroic Intervention, then until the end of
the turn add 1 to the Attacks characteristic of all its
models and add 1 to the Strength characteristic of all
the melee weapons the unit is armed with.

It's S7 x2 +1, thus 15.

orkswubwub wrote:
Tzeentch was strong before the FAQ - is there a reason it is now considered hot garbage? Even the furthest deployment is 24 inches which is pink horror range - now with more CP you can make em 3++ fairly easily / routine and also make them the only thing the opponent can shoot - with some splitting will be a tough nut to crack (can do this for like 3-4 turns instead of 1-2 before). I know the lack of DS is annoying to optimally position them but is there a reason they are now considered unplayable?

LoC with a permanent 2++ now seems possible which can be a hot damage sink... Likely not competitive but maybe peeking in?

I've been wrong before, so enlighten me on how you get a 2++ LoC. As most LoC buffs limit you to 3++

mmimzie wrote:

orkswubwub wrote:
Tzeentch was strong before the FAQ - is there a reason it is now considered hot garbage? Even the furthest deployment is 24 inches which is pink horror range - now with more CP you can make em 3++ fairly easily / routine and also make them the only thing the opponent can shoot - with some splitting will be a tough nut to crack (can do this for like 3-4 turns instead of 1-2 before). I know the lack of DS is annoying to optimally position them but is there a reason they are now considered unplayable?

LoC with a permanent 2++ now seems possible which can be a hot damage sink... Likely not competitive but maybe peeking in?

I've been wrong before, so enlighten me on how you get a 2++ LoC. As most LoC buffs limit you to 3++

base is 5++ -> 4++ Impossible Robe -> 3++ Warp Surge -> 2++ Ephemeral Form ---- Please note this is actually a +1 role to the invul so the invul is STILL 3++ but you get a +1 =)

orkswubwub wrote:

mmimzie wrote:

orkswubwub wrote:
Tzeentch was strong before the FAQ - is there a reason it is now considered hot garbage? Even the furthest deployment is 24 inches which is pink horror range - now with more CP you can make em 3++ fairly easily / routine and also make them the only thing the opponent can shoot - with some splitting will be a tough nut to crack (can do this for like 3-4 turns instead of 1-2 before). I know the lack of DS is annoying to optimally position them but is there a reason they are now considered unplayable?

LoC with a permanent 2++ now seems possible which can be a hot damage sink... Likely not competitive but maybe peeking in?

I've been wrong before, so enlighten me on how you get a 2++ LoC. As most LoC buffs limit you to 3++

base is 5++ -> 4++ Impossible Robe -> 3++ Warp Surge -> 2++ Ephemeral Form ---- Please note this is actually a +1 role to the invul so the invul is STILL 3++ but you get a +1 =)

Doesn't the robe state is has a maximum of 3+? I guess if Harald Deathwolf gets a 2+ why not the LOC though.

orkswubwub wrote:

mmimzie wrote:

orkswubwub wrote:
Tzeentch was strong before the FAQ - is there a reason it is now considered hot garbage? Even the furthest deployment is 24 inches which is pink horror range - now with more CP you can make em 3++ fairly easily / routine and also make them the only thing the opponent can shoot - with some splitting will be a tough nut to crack (can do this for like 3-4 turns instead of 1-2 before). I know the lack of DS is annoying to optimally position them but is there a reason they are now considered unplayable?

LoC with a permanent 2++ now seems possible which can be a hot damage sink... Likely not competitive but maybe peeking in?

I've been wrong before, so enlighten me on how you get a 2++ LoC. As most LoC buffs limit you to 3++

base is 5++ -> 4++ Impossible Robe -> 3++ Warp Surge -> 2++ Ephemeral Form ---- Please note this is actually a +1 role to the invul so the invul is STILL 3++ but you get a +1 =)

i thought warp surge/impossible robe ensured that they could not provide you a save higher then 3+

operkoi wrote:

orkswubwub wrote:

mmimzie wrote:

orkswubwub wrote:
Tzeentch was strong before the FAQ - is there a reason it is now considered hot garbage? Even the furthest deployment is 24 inches which is pink horror range - now with more CP you can make em 3++ fairly easily / routine and also make them the only thing the opponent can shoot - with some splitting will be a tough nut to crack (can do this for like 3-4 turns instead of 1-2 before). I know the lack of DS is annoying to optimally position them but is there a reason they are now considered unplayable?

LoC with a permanent 2++ now seems possible which can be a hot damage sink... Likely not competitive but maybe peeking in?

I've been wrong before, so enlighten me on how you get a 2++ LoC. As most LoC buffs limit you to 3++

base is 5++ -> 4++ Impossible Robe -> 3++ Warp Surge -> 2++ Ephemeral Form ---- Please note this is actually a +1 role to the invul so the invul is STILL 3++ but you get a +1 =)

i thought warp surge/impossible robe ensured that they could not provide you a save higher then 3+

That's true, but ephemereal form add +1 to the saving throw, so a throw of 2 becomes a 3, and thus fulfill the condition of being Not Better than 3++.
Fun thing : it also mean you will never die using the reroll from impossible robe, as a roll of 1 becomes a 2 (like prescience + plasma).

Eh, it says add 1 to saving throw, (which seems to modify the save itself) not saving throw roll.

Interesting though

In that case it would say : Improve the save characteristic by one (so a 4+ becomes a 3+). I can't remember which unit entry has something like that, but I think it's Renegade Marauder.

Hmm, yea I've been looking this over and cant find how it doesent work.

Which is a shame because i absolutely HATE these 2++ BS loopholes.

Just embrace is my deamon brethren... we are too busy talking how we aren't competitive we should be abusing this I've always seen one of the limitations being the CP but now with more at disposal....

Honestly, like i said this makes LoC borderline. Still very low on damage out for the CP and even with Smite / Infernal gateway being practically guaranteed likely doesn't have the damage. But add the 2++ with incorporeal form for warlord trait... Maybe in the right list could do something competitively....

Bloodletters kill a guard unit. They are looking at their commander next. Commander jumps on a 1''+ barrel. Bloodletters go home because he's immune to charges.

Yeah boy, charge immunity!


feth this.

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Bloodletters kill a guard unit. They are looking at their commander next. Commander jumps on a 1''+ barrel. Bloodletters go home because he's immune to charges.

Yeahttps://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/forums/show/18.pageh boy, charge immunity!

feth this.

You seem on the warpath, and by your passive aggressive comments I guess brokering for a fight regarding this ruling? In the example of the barrel - can you clarify how wobbly model helps here? My understanding of wobbly model is it doesn't actually let you shrink the base, only put a placeholder if the base is tilted. The ruling in the FAQ is targeted at bases that can't fit? I guess this is what you are referencing?

Q: If a unit declares a charge against an enemy unit that is
entirely on the upper level of a terrain feature such as a ruin,
Sector Mechanicus structure, etc., but it cannot physically end
its charge move within 1" of any models from that unit (either
because there is not enough room to place the charging unit, or
because the charging unit is unable to end its move on the upper
levels of that terrain feature because of the expanded terrain
rules for it – as with ruins, for example), does that charge fail?
A: Yes.

It seems the most sensible way to accomodate this if the rule bothers you is to set-up terrain in a way that makes sense to you and allows charge units to move up a level. Not ideal but some type of final determination regarding how to judge charge distance and unit placement needs to be made. I could see the other side of the argument that if a lip is 0.000001mm and you charge and put your model there claiming wobbly model that this could also be seen as ridiculous... Probably best to solve with sensible terrain placement while the rule gets refined....

I mean what else can I say? FLG just streamed the FAQ where they explained more things. No more wobbly model for this. So if the enemy character has a terrain piece that's 1'' off the ground - he's unchargeable by anything in the game. Vehicles, fly, infantry - anything.

Same with ruins. Oh, the bloodletters have a big base, let's just see that the base doesn't fit anywhere. 3 models in a floor should do it...

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
I mean what else can I say? FLG just streamed the FAQ where they explained more things. No more wobbly model for this. So if the enemy character has a terrain piece that's 1'' off the ground - he's unchargeable by anything in the game. Vehicles, fly, infantry - anything.

Same with ruins. Oh, the bloodletters have a big base, let's just see that the base doesn't fit anywhere. 3 models in a floor should do it...

Can you just set the terrain up in a way that makes sense to you? Not ideal I suppose but its better then panicking...

What are you talking about? So throw out every multifloor ruin and every barrel?

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
What are you talking about? So throw out every multifloor ruin and every barrel?

So take a deep breath. I really won't reply again to stop this thread from being derailed completely - as this can go better in a rules forum.

I don't understand the implication of this in the barrel scenario (assuming FLY):
Q: When a unit that can Fly declares a charge move against a unit that is on the upper levels of a ruin, do I need to include the vertical distance when making the subsequent charge move for the unit?
A: No. A unit that can Fly effectively ignores vertical distances when making a charge move. Note though that the charging unit must still be within 12" (measured directly ‘base-to-base’, i.e. diagonally) to be able to declare the charge in the first place.

For what its worth - I agree with you - the rule is not great and prone to abuse. However, when taking extremes its also easy to use cases to show almost any situation is ridiculous. Take a ranger standing on a spire - significantly off the ground and you charge noting that 0.01 mm is available - your opponent looks at you asking how you are doing this and you beam back and beat your breast claiming wobbly model and that his model is surrounded - meanwhile none of your models can even finish on that level etc. While the rule IS abusable and NOT ideal just use common sense when setting up terrain - any unit that is over one model in your example is chargeable. FLY units may(? I'm not sure from the FAQ) be able to charge up a floor - and or use larger second story floors so that charge units can get up with multiple ways up. Take some shooting (not an entire melee army) to help with some scenarios... If you are a super rules critic measure all your barrels and ensure they are 3/4" off the ground... There will still be problems but it doesn't HAVE to be game breaking, put another barrel or two next to that one when setting up and most cases will probably be accounted unless the opponent has now a three man squad who will sit on all three barrels etc....

Who cares about fly. If you can't physically place a model on something - you can't charge. Done and dusted. My TO ruled against this, so I don't care. Hope yours does the same.

Plague drones gained the Plague Bearers keyword which is a strong improvement for me as they will now profit from the scrivener. Would be funny if they could profit from the horn of nurgle's rot, but the plaguebearer in that rule is not bolded .

 rvd1ofakind wrote:
Who cares about fly. If you can't physically place a model on something - you can't charge. Done and dusted. My TO ruled against this, so I don't care. Hope yours does the same.

It seems to be to be a simple fix to have the old style ruling of ruins and such. You can fight a unit that is on the same level as you or one level above you. Same with other pieces of terrain. Or if a monster is as tall as the level, they can fight that unit, etc.

Except all three of this letters are well within 1" of the dude?

You forget the lettes body is not flat on the ground, but has some height. you need to stand on something at least 1" over the heads of whatever you want to hide from in order to be safe.

 BoomWolf wrote:
Except all three of this letters are well within 1" of the dude?

You forget the lettes body is not flat on the ground, but has some height. you need to stand on something at least 1" over the heads of whatever you want to hide from in order to be safe.

No, it's 1" from base to base not from any point on the model.

huh, now I feel silly, its just things without a base...

funny how a Rhino can attack something sitting on a 1.1" rock but an Imperial Knight cannot......

Why is a Cybernetica Datasmith commanding a Guard unit anyway? It's not like he can repair them or change their doctrinal wafers (he could try though... )

Also, that's no barel, he appears to have jumped onto a giant pencil sharpener!

It is a massively, massively stupid rule with some very obvious fixes. I don't understand how GW can blunder about with a sledgehammer trying to fix some issues, but leave obvious ones like this...


Automatically Appended Next Post:
PS. Also regarding the new FAQ: Horrors. Why do thousand sons and grey knights get exemption from the Smite nerf, but horrors, who really need it because they will fail to cast most of the time anyway, do not?

Can we PLEASE put spoiler tags around HD images and only use them in preference to scaled to fit ones where detail is necessary, this page is now borderline unreadable on a mobile device

 BoomWolf wrote:
huh, now I feel silly, its just things without a base...

SOUL GRINDERS ARE BACK BABY!!!!

 gwarsh41 wrote:

 BoomWolf wrote:
huh, now I feel silly, its just things without a base...

SOUL GRINDERS ARE BACK BABY!!!!

Excellent!

So in light of the FAQ changes, what do we see as effective moving forward? I haven’t even played a game of the new 40k yet and I already need to rethink what I want to build and paint.

 Vomikron Noxis wrote:
... and I already need to rethink what I want to build and paint.

I'm just putting paint to my skull cannon-happy khorne artillery army, and all I can say is I'll be asking permission to ignore the anti-spam protocols (and only play casual games, though that was the plan anyway). I'm struggling to see how they don't invalidate mono-god style armies - including Haemonculus Covens or Wych Cults - that aren't just hordes of the same 1 troop choice over and over.

Come to think of it, all of my 40k builds apart from Daemons of Tzeentch are now illegal, and the blue boys aren't only because I haven't built that third chariot yet ...

- Salvage