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with two heralds of khorne and 30-man bloodletter squads in deepstrike there will be 10 CP left.
I think I will advace forward with LoC and drones, activating 2++ from Warp Surge to tank the shots from Plague Drones.
Turn 2 comes first bloodletter bomb. Drones, LoC and bloodletters need to clear the screen.
Turn 3 come second wave of bloodletters to kill the core of the enemy. LoC tries to possition himself to snipe heroes with spells.
I am considering taking Born of Sorcery trait to LoC instead of Rage Incarnate on the HoK. Then I will be able to nuke gunlines with Infernal Gateway on 9+.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/04/28 12:57:37
with two heralds of khorne and 30-man bloodletter squads in deepstrike there will be 10 CP left.
I think I will advace forward with LoC and drones, activating 2++ from Warp Surge to tank the shots from Plague Drones.
Turn 2 comes first bloodletter bomb. Drones, LoC and bloodletters need to clear the screen.
Turn 3 come second wave of bloodletters to kill the core of the enemy. LoC tries to possition himself to snipe heroes with spells.
I am considering taking Born of Sorcery trait to LoC instead of Rage Incarnate on the HoK. Then I will be able to nuke gunlines with Infernal Gateway on 9+.
Nice plan. Curious how the 2++ LoC and the 7 drones fare T1. Good luck!
There is an argument (not one I agree with) that the wording on the Tzeentch invulnerable save ability is actually +1 to the roll rather than the save itself, so combining with the impossible robe and warp surge gives you a 3++ but with +1 on the roll (so you only fail on a 1). I'd be amazed in many TO allow this hey, even then the Lord of Change is hardly broken.
lindsay40k wrote: If it helps y’all to accept that we do seem to have a 2++, near enough identical wording on Harald Deathwolf’s wargear gives him an effective 2++.
Harald Deathwolf doesn't have a "maximum of 3+" and it is limited to shooting attacks though.
fishwaffle2232 wrote: Warp surge specifically says increases "to a maximum of +3" seems pretty cut and dried to me. But as a tzeentch player im keen to hear the argument.
Just got a chance to pull out the codex and you are right it is +1 to roll. Thats nuts
Kaptain basically spelt out the argument.
Lord of change has a 5+ invuln.
Impossible robes gives you a 4+ invuln.
Warp surge improves the invuln by 1 to a 3+.
Empherial form adds 1 to your invuln save rolls. So a 1 becomes a 2, a 2 becomes a 3, etc.
This means if you roll a 2 it becomes a 3 and becomes a pass for the 3+ invuln.
fishwaffle2232 wrote: Warp surge specifically says increases "to a maximum of +3" seems pretty cut and dried to me. But as a tzeentch player im keen to hear the argument.
Just got a chance to pull out the codex and you are right it is +1 to roll. Thats nuts
Kaptain basically spelt out the argument.
Lord of change has a 5+ invuln.
Impossible robes gives you a 4+ invuln.
Warp surge improves the invuln by 1 to a 3+.
Empherial form adds 1 to your invuln save rolls. So a 1 becomes a 2, a 2 becomes a 3, etc.
This means if you roll a 2 it becomes a 3 and becomes a pass for the 3+ invuln.
Yes I get it as, per my post above...
I didn't realise the wording on the tzeentch ability was +1 to the roll, also as per my post above.
Didn't have access to my book when I first replied.
So I've been doing alot of thinking about how to make Daemons work, because frankly, I don't want to be another codex or start up another army. I dove pretty deep into this dex and I have a few thoughts I'd like to discuss.
Greater Daemons- I think these guys aren't used properly and should actually be a bigger part of daemons game plan. yes I know their point costs are high, but if just 1 of them hits your opponents lines it'll do quite a bit of damage. Im proposing that the army be built around toughness 5-7 models. With that in mind, I think running 2-3 greater Daemons might actually be good as they can all be pretty hard to kill. LoC can be made to have a 3++ with a robe, bloodthirster with an armor of scorn + warp surge can have a 3++, and a GUO with his psychic powers is also hard to take down. I think this style of play will actually make some units in the dex stronger.
Such as...
Burning chariot- These seem quite good to me. I think people were too enamored by the fact that the exalted flamer is a character. I think 30 pts for an added +1t, +4w, +4" move, and +6 s6 attacks seems like a steal. I also think it's quite versatile. A turn 1 with this can be pretty good I feel. You have a 32" threat range against high toughness, or a 26" threat range against infantry. On almost all the deployment zones, you'll be hitting something. So you can run these up the board, shoot a tank, and then charge their screen. The t5 to me is huge as it makes it resilient to anti infantry fire. If you have a couple of these next to a couple of greater daemons, your opponent has to decide where they want their high str weapons to go.
Skull cannons- another high toughness model that is cheap and again, versatile. Daemons are lacking in long range shooting and I feel these are close to auto includes in a mono daemon list. Again, your opponent will basically be forced to deal with your greater Daemons before even looking at these. They hold objectives great also.
Soul Grinders - I hated these guys on paper so much since the release of 8th, but I think there could be a home for them now. Like I said earlier, we need shooting in this army. this provides us with that. While also being another t7 model your opponent has to deal with. mark of tzeentch it you got a 4+ save too.
plague drones - more t5 hard to kill units that are speedy enough to help control the board.
Now I've also been thinking about how to properly field troops. I can't stand big blobs of 30 (unless you're using a bloodletter bomb). with the way the morale rules are, it seems like a gigantic waste of points. I feel MSU is the way to go for infantry. especially if they're going to be around greater Daemons giving them ld 10.
so yeah, idk just a couple thoughts that I'd figured I'd share so we can all discuss.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/02 00:20:07
greater demons in a high competitive enviroment are close to useless, maybe now they got bit better cause they cant be alpha striked 1st turn, but they cant do it as well...
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blackmage wrote: greater demons in a high competitive enviroment are close to useless, maybe now they got bit better cause they cant be alpha striked 1st turn, but they cant do it as well...
Have you tried playing a list with the tactics I'm proposing? Just saying "greater daemons are bad" doesn't really add to the discussion.
WindxMill wrote: So I've been doing alot of thinking about how to make Daemons work, because frankly, I don't want to be another codex or start up another army. I dove pretty deep into this dex and I have a few thoughts I'd like to discuss.
Greater Daemons- I think these guys aren't used properly and should actually be a bigger part of daemons game plan. yes I know their point costs are high, but if just 1 of them hits your opponents lines it'll do quite a bit of damage. Im proposing that the army be built around toughness 5-7 models. With that in mind, I think running 2-3 greater Daemons might actually be good as they can all be pretty hard to kill. LoC can be made to have a 3++ with a robe, bloodthirster with an armor of scorn + warp surge can have a 3++, and a GUO with his psychic powers is also hard to take down. I think this style of play will actually make some units in the dex stronger.
Such as...
Burning chariot- These seem quite good to me. I think people were too enamored by the fact that the exalted flamer is a character. I think 30 pts for an added +1t, +4w, +4" move, and +6 s6 attacks seems like a steal. I also think it's quite versatile. A turn 1 with this can be pretty good I feel. You have a 32" threat range against high toughness, or a 26" threat range against infantry. On almost all the deployment zones, you'll be hitting something. So you can run these up the board, shoot a tank, and then charge their screen. The t5 to me is huge as it makes it resilient to anti infantry fire. If you have a couple of these next to a couple of greater daemons, your opponent has to decide where they want their high str weapons to go.
Skull cannons- another high toughness model that is cheap and again, versatile. Daemons are lacking in long range shooting and I feel these are close to auto includes in a mono daemon list. Again, your opponent will basically be forced to deal with your greater Daemons before even looking at these. They hold objectives great also.
Soul Grinders - I hated these guys on paper so much since the release of 8th, but I think there could be a home for them now. Like I said earlier, we need shooting in this army. this provides us with that. While also being another t7 model your opponent has to deal with. mark of tzeentch it you got a 4+ save too.
plague drones - more t5 hard to kill units that are speedy enough to help control the board.
Now I've also been thinking about how to properly field troops. I can't stand big blobs of 30 (unless you're using a bloodletter bomb). with the way the morale rules are, it seems like a gigantic waste of points. I feel MSU is the way to go for infantry. especially if they're going to be around greater Daemons giving them ld 10.
so yeah, idk just a couple thoughts that I'd figured I'd share so we can all discuss.
I feel like I keep coming back to the thread and inserting my side of the force that everyone ignores... lol. Anyway, your proposed idea for Greater Daemons is something I have thought about as well and I find it a more feasible option since I play Mono-Slaanesh. Out of the Greater Daemons the KOS is the least tough and least likely to make it to enemy lines... but it's also the cheapest and gives some breathing room to take multiple KOS. My only issue with this is aesthetics, as I only want one FWKOS and I can't stand the current model. Hopefully a plastic one comes out ASAP.
Chariots was/is something I am already spamming and it's worked out fairly well. Lots of Hellflayers and the Seeker Chariot is fairly cheap. It wasn't the best decision from my opponent but I had an exalted chariot that soaked up a ton of fire and survived since my daemonettes were in combat/out of LOS. It was worth the 100 points it cost as it soaked up way more in firepower that only brought it down to half health. My other chariots that are more useful, like my hellflayers, were ignored for the exalted one.
As for MSU. I've actually had a lot of success with medium sized squads. 24 to be exact. Though to be fair I chose 24 not for some optimization number but because it's divisible by 6. Slaanesh's number. They've done some real work though. If they aren't bothered with because of all the chariots, it's a crap ton of attacks/damage. If they are dealt with, you have to kill a decent amount to get their numbers down but it isn't a big deal because I have 3+ more medium sized squads. And the chariots are then ignored. I consider medium to be from 18-26 btw.
All in all, I've been having a ton of fun and success with my Daemonettes. I had a game a couple weeks ago against my Tzeentch buddy. I beat him on points in a list I was testing a lot of stuff with, with one Herald left lol. My KOS was annihilated by Magnus but I suppose that's to be expected.
As for the other armies, I think you're on the right track. I just don't know them as well since I stick with Mono-Slaanesh.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/02 01:46:20
blackmage wrote: greater demons in a high competitive enviroment are close to useless, maybe now they got bit better cause they cant be alpha striked 1st turn, but they cant do it as well...
Have you tried playing a list with the tactics I'm proposing? Just saying "greater daemons are bad" doesn't really add to the discussion.
You know what? I will take that challenge. I have a friendly game this Thursday vs a good buddy of mine who either takes a tau or a primaris marine army, this is what I have and what I will take.
Lord of Change: Gaze of Fate, Infernal Gateway, Rod of Sorcery, The Impossible Robe
+ Troops +
Horrors: 20x Pink Horror
+ Elites +
Exalted Flamer
Flamers: 2x Flamer, Pyrocaster
Flamers: 2x Flamer, Pyrocaster
++ Unbound Army (Faction) (Chaos - Daemons) ++
+ No Force Org Slot +
Chaos Allegiance: Slaanesh
+ HQ +
Keeper of Secrets: Pavane of Slaanesh, Symphony of Pain
The Masque of Slaanesh: Warlord
+ Troops +
Daemonettes: Alluress, 9x Daemonette
Daemonettes: Alluress, 9x Daemonette
Daemonettes: Alluress, 9x Daemonette
+ Fast Attack +
Seekers: Heartseeker, Instrument of Chaos, 4x Seeker
That's 14 command points (holy cow), 3 getting used for artifacts. 3 greater deamons (I know keeper of secrets is not the best greater deamon but I like slaanesh and really, shoot it, ignore the bloodthirster and lord of change flying into your face, I am cool with that), 30 bloodletters, 30 deamonettes, 20 pink horrors, some flamers, some seekers, and my favorite warlord, the Masque of Slaanesh. It's a lot of close combat and some shooting, but it should get the job done as long as I can get there. Turn 1 slaanesh should have no issue getting into the enemy's front line asap, tzeentch will be right there with fire Support, and khorne can be bringing up the rear for a second turn mop up.
blackmage wrote: greater demons in a high competitive enviroment are close to useless, maybe now they got bit better cause they cant be alpha striked 1st turn, but they cant do it as well...
Have you tried playing a list with the tactics I'm proposing? Just saying "greater daemons are bad" doesn't really add to the discussion.
You know what? I will take that challenge. I have a friendly game this Thursday vs a good buddy of mine who either takes a tau or a primaris marine army, this is what I have and what I will take.
Lord of Change: Gaze of Fate, Infernal Gateway, Rod of Sorcery, The Impossible Robe
+ Troops +
Horrors: 20x Pink Horror
+ Elites +
Exalted Flamer
Flamers: 2x Flamer, Pyrocaster
Flamers: 2x Flamer, Pyrocaster
++ Unbound Army (Faction) (Chaos - Daemons) ++
+ No Force Org Slot +
Chaos Allegiance: Slaanesh
+ HQ +
Keeper of Secrets: Pavane of Slaanesh, Symphony of Pain
The Masque of Slaanesh: Warlord
+ Troops +
Daemonettes: Alluress, 9x Daemonette
Daemonettes: Alluress, 9x Daemonette
Daemonettes: Alluress, 9x Daemonette
+ Fast Attack +
Seekers: Heartseeker, Instrument of Chaos, 4x Seeker
That's 14 command points (holy cow), 3 getting used for artifacts. 3 greater deamons (I know keeper of secrets is not the best greater deamon but I like slaanesh and really, shoot it, ignore the bloodthirster and lord of change flying into your face, I am cool with that), 30 bloodletters, 30 deamonettes, 20 pink horrors, some flamers, some seekers, and my favorite warlord, the Masque of Slaanesh. It's a lot of close combat and some shooting, but it should get the job done as long as I can get there. Turn 1 slaanesh should have no issue getting into the enemy's front line asap, tzeentch will be right there with fire Support, and khorne can be bringing up the rear for a second turn mop up.
Either that or everything dies very quickly lol.
Awesome! The only thing I'd like to see in your list some more higher toughness models like chariots or cannons, but I'm definitely curious how it's gonna work out for you.
WindxMill wrote: So I've been doing alot of thinking about how to make Daemons work, because frankly, I don't want to be another codex or start up another army. I dove pretty deep into this dex and I have a few thoughts I'd like to discuss.
Greater Daemons- I think these guys aren't used properly and should actually be a bigger part of daemons game plan. yes I know their point costs are high, but if just 1 of them hits your opponents lines it'll do quite a bit of damage. Im proposing that the army be built around toughness 5-7 models. With that in mind, I think running 2-3 greater Daemons might actually be good as they can all be pretty hard to kill. LoC can be made to have a 3++ with a robe, bloodthirster with an armor of scorn + warp surge can have a 3++, and a GUO with his psychic powers is also hard to take down. I think this style of play will actually make some units in the dex stronger.
Such as...
Burning chariot- These seem quite good to me. I think people were too enamored by the fact that the exalted flamer is a character. I think 30 pts for an added +1t, +4w, +4" move, and +6 s6 attacks seems like a steal. I also think it's quite versatile. A turn 1 with this can be pretty good I feel. You have a 32" threat range against high toughness, or a 26" threat range against infantry. On almost all the deployment zones, you'll be hitting something. So you can run these up the board, shoot a tank, and then charge their screen. The t5 to me is huge as it makes it resilient to anti infantry fire. If you have a couple of these next to a couple of greater daemons, your opponent has to decide where they want their high str weapons to go.
Skull cannons- another high toughness model that is cheap and again, versatile. Daemons are lacking in long range shooting and I feel these are close to auto includes in a mono daemon list. Again, your opponent will basically be forced to deal with your greater Daemons before even looking at these. They hold objectives great also.
Soul Grinders - I hated these guys on paper so much since the release of 8th, but I think there could be a home for them now. Like I said earlier, we need shooting in this army. this provides us with that. While also being another t7 model your opponent has to deal with. mark of tzeentch it you got a 4+ save too.
plague drones - more t5 hard to kill units that are speedy enough to help control the board.
Now I've also been thinking about how to properly field troops. I can't stand big blobs of 30 (unless you're using a bloodletter bomb). with the way the morale rules are, it seems like a gigantic waste of points. I feel MSU is the way to go for infantry. especially if they're going to be around greater Daemons giving them ld 10.
so yeah, idk just a couple thoughts that I'd figured I'd share so we can all discuss.
I feel like I keep coming back to the thread and inserting my side of the force that everyone ignores... lol. Anyway, your proposed idea for Greater Daemons is something I have thought about as well and I find it a more feasible option since I play Mono-Slaanesh. Out of the Greater Daemons the KOS is the least tough and least likely to make it to enemy lines... but it's also the cheapest and gives some breathing room to take multiple KOS. My only issue with this is aesthetics, as I only want one FWKOS and I can't stand the current model. Hopefully a plastic one comes out ASAP.
Chariots was/is something I am already spamming and it's worked out fairly well. Lots of Hellflayers and the Seeker Chariot is fairly cheap. It wasn't the best decision from my opponent but I had an exalted chariot that soaked up a ton of fire and survived since my daemonettes were in combat/out of LOS. It was worth the 100 points it cost as it soaked up way more in firepower that only brought it down to half health. My other chariots that are more useful, like my hellflayers, were ignored for the exalted one.
As for MSU. I've actually had a lot of success with medium sized squads. 24 to be exact. Though to be fair I chose 24 not for some optimization number but because it's divisible by 6. Slaanesh's number. They've done some real work though. If they aren't bothered with because of all the chariots, it's a crap ton of attacks/damage. If they are dealt with, you have to kill a decent amount to get their numbers down but it isn't a big deal because I have 3+ more medium sized squads. And the chariots are then ignored. I consider medium to be from 18-26 btw.
All in all, I've been having a ton of fun and success with my Daemonettes. I had a game a couple weeks ago against my Tzeentch buddy. I beat him on points in a list I was testing a lot of stuff with, with one Herald left lol. My KOS was annihilated by Magnus but I suppose that's to be expected.
As for the other armies, I think you're on the right track. I just don't know them as well since I stick with Mono-Slaanesh.
It's awesome to see slaanesh get some love lol. I've been considering trying some of their chariots and some friends. With no 1st turn ds, I feel like things that move fast are definitely much needed for this army. I hear you so hard on that KoS model, it's so ugly lol how have you been sitting out the one you use?
blackmage wrote: greater demons in a high competitive enviroment are close to useless, maybe now they got bit better cause they cant be alpha striked 1st turn, but they cant do it as well...
Have you tried playing a list with the tactics I'm proposing? Just saying "greater daemons are bad" doesn't really add to the discussion.
You know what? I will take that challenge. I have a friendly game this Thursday vs a good buddy of mine who either takes a tau or a primaris marine army, this is what I have and what I will take.
Lord of Change: Gaze of Fate, Infernal Gateway, Rod of Sorcery, The Impossible Robe
+ Troops +
Horrors: 20x Pink Horror
+ Elites +
Exalted Flamer
Flamers: 2x Flamer, Pyrocaster
Flamers: 2x Flamer, Pyrocaster
++ Unbound Army (Faction) (Chaos - Daemons) ++
+ No Force Org Slot +
Chaos Allegiance: Slaanesh
+ HQ +
Keeper of Secrets: Pavane of Slaanesh, Symphony of Pain
The Masque of Slaanesh: Warlord
+ Troops +
Daemonettes: Alluress, 9x Daemonette
Daemonettes: Alluress, 9x Daemonette
Daemonettes: Alluress, 9x Daemonette
+ Fast Attack +
Seekers: Heartseeker, Instrument of Chaos, 4x Seeker
That's 14 command points (holy cow), 3 getting used for artifacts. 3 greater deamons (I know keeper of secrets is not the best greater deamon but I like slaanesh and really, shoot it, ignore the bloodthirster and lord of change flying into your face, I am cool with that), 30 bloodletters, 30 deamonettes, 20 pink horrors, some flamers, some seekers, and my favorite warlord, the Masque of Slaanesh. It's a lot of close combat and some shooting, but it should get the job done as long as I can get there. Turn 1 slaanesh should have no issue getting into the enemy's front line asap, tzeentch will be right there with fire Support, and khorne can be bringing up the rear for a second turn mop up.
Either that or everything dies very quickly lol.
Awesome! The only thing I'd like to see in your list some more higher toughness models like chariots or cannons, but I'm definitely curious how it's gonna work out for you.
Unfortunately I don't own many of those. I want to get 3 skull cannons, but the last one I built turned into a demonic motorcycle which I use as my blood throne. I have a soulgrinder but I don't see a way to fit it in without losing something that I think the list will need to work, like cp. I suppose if I am willing to lose my "mono deamon bonuses" it could be done, but I think I need the slaanesh one for the alpha strike to work and the other ones could be useful. Only other high toughness options I have are deamon princes.
I'm kinda new to 40k and started a Khorne/Tzeentch daemon army last year. Haven't won a game with pure daemons since the brimstone nerf. To be fair, the local meta is only mega-optimized tier 1 and tier 2 lists and compromised of super experienced players that compete at Adepticon and LVO and stuff. The overriding consensus among my group is that daemons are trash tier right now, with mono Khorne/mono Tzeentch at the very bottom. I have a fairly sizeable Khorne/Tzeentch collection (maybe 300 models) but it looks like unless I start introducing a lot of Death Guard, there is absolutely no way for me to win against competitive lists with just Khorne or Tzeentch daemons. I've tried summoning heavy lists, multiple greater daemons, multiple winged daemon princes, deep striking a whole Khorne battalion T1, and more variations. Nothing seems to work against any competitive list that's been deployed correctly. I do perform a lot better once I start mixing in obliterators, Abaddon/cultists, Tzeentch sorcerers, and more CSM. And I can imagine that performance improving even more with the addition of some competitive DG units to soak up fire like plagueburst crawlers or maybe a DG leviathan. But at that point I'm playing Chaos soup and daemons become a really sub-optimal supporting army that doesn't syngerize well with a lot of CSM.
I've just about given up on pure daemons at this point and will probably go back to working on my old eldar army unless someone figures out how to make this army work in a really brutal meta. Losing 10+ games in a row gets really old.
Pure deamons can be hard to win with right now, that's true, but I don't know if death guard are the answer. Personally I love tsons and if you want to add some heretic marines in that's where I would start looking.
barboggo wrote: The overriding consensus among my group is that daemons are trash tier right now, with mono Khorne/mono Tzeentch at the very bottom. [...] I do perform a lot better once I start mixing in obliterators, Abaddon/cultists, Tzeentch sorcerers, and more CSM.
That's funny, because I play TS, and I've found that without Tzeentch Daemons my army is not competitive. What are you running in your mono-Tzeentch list ?
You need target saturation to succeed with this kind of armies. For example, I run a Lord of Change with Impossible Robe and -1 damage Warlord trait combined with several Daemon engines (Defilers, Maulerfiends and even Heldrakes when I play purely for fun). The LoC soaks all the anti-tank fire that would have wrecked my Daemon Engines, allowing them to do their job.
If you run primarily Pink horrors and a single LoC, all the anti-tank firepower will go to the LoC and he'll die serving no purpose. If you run multiple Pink horror units with Exalted Flamers, Daemon Princes and other characters with less than 10 wounds, suddenly there's no good target for the ennemy anti-tank weapons. Combine that with Warp Surge and the army is a pain to deal with.
ArmchairArbiter wrote:As for MSU. I've actually had a lot of success with medium sized squads. 24 to be exact. Though to be fair I chose 24 not for some optimization number but because it's divisible by 6. Slaanesh's number.
You mean divisible by 8, Khorne's number Been defaulting to 24 for my Bloodletters too, has worked pretty well for me.
Azuza001 wrote:Blood Throne: The Crimson Crown
I keep wanting to have a Throne work but just don't see the appeal and haven't been able to find something secretly good about it. The Crown combined with the large base is smart though
- Salvage
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/02 13:40:46
I've had an amazing success with plague drones lately. With the scriviner buffing them, their dmg got a healthy boost. I've been running a unit of 9 with scriviner and poxbringer support. Toss miasma on them for survivability, and if they encounter any vehicles, Vilurent Blessing will make quick work of it. When you start throwing out 5dmg swings, they get brutal.
I tried a soul grinder of khorne with warp claw a while ago. Having like 12 attacks was really appealing. Compared to a Fleshmower Bloat drone, it was a little lackluster. At the end of the day, a nurgle grinder will have 1 more attack, 4 more wounds, and some bad shooting. While the drone gets speed, smaller footprint, and most importantly, FLY.
The grinder was a pretty awesome distraction carnifex. 14 T7 wounds on a daemon is pretty baller, and the model is still awesome. It ended up just harassing tanks. A recent deterrent for using it has been how you measure about models with no base. It can be weird with the soul grinder.
I've also been thinking about a small drop list where most of the points are in a single plague toad unit. 9 pox riders will run you almost 600pt. You get 45 wounds across 9 large bases that are -1 to hit and put out 27 heavy bolter shots in CC with a built in scriviner buff for more hits, as well as 18 plaguesword attacks.
Like drones, they also fly, making them really useful for anti air and getting on ruins.
The tough call is whether toads are worth their points when compared to drones. For about 600pt, you can get 2 units of 8 drones. They lack AP, and the built in miasma, but 16 drones is 64 wounds with 64 proboscis attacks and 18 sword attacks.
If poxriders gained the Plaguebearer keyword, I think they would become much better. Rolls of 5 would be 1 extra attack, rolls of 6 would be 2. Right now I don't think they can compare much to drones though. Wont stop me from putting 16 drones and 9 toads on the table!!!!
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/02 14:27:04
Azuza001 wrote: Pure deamons can be hard to win with right now, that's true, but I don't know if death guard are the answer. Personally I love tsons and if you want to add some heretic marines in that's where I would start looking.
What kind of lists are you playing against?
I've played against lots of dark eldar lately, mostly vehicle spam with raiders, ravagers, and venoms full of wyches/warriors. I've also gone against wrack/talos spam as mono Khorne (that was BRUTAL). Other recent-ish opponents include Death Guard/Alpha Legion soup, imperial guard with Baneblade/mortar teams/plasma scions, craftworld eldar with reapers/wave serpents/Saim-Hann shining spears/scatterbikes, and hive fleet Kraken with flyrants/devilgants. It all tends to be very "on-meta" stuff which I find pure daemons or mono god daemons just don't have the tools to deal with. Would love to be wrong here. Without transports or T1 deepstrike I have a really hard time protecting my units, especially compared to playing my eldar army. Definitely have started looking into tsons though and painted up a 30k Ahriman recently to see how he does.
barboggo wrote: The overriding consensus among my group is that daemons are trash tier right now, with mono Khorne/mono Tzeentch at the very bottom. [...] I do perform a lot better once I start mixing in obliterators, Abaddon/cultists, Tzeentch sorcerers, and more CSM.
That's funny, because I play TS, and I've found that without Tzeentch Daemons my army is not competitive. What are you running in your mono-Tzeentch list ?
You need target saturation to succeed with this kind of armies. For example, I run a Lord of Change with Impossible Robe and -1 damage Warlord trait combined with several Daemon engines (Defilers, Maulerfiends and even Heldrakes when I play purely for fun). The LoC soaks all the anti-tank fire that would have wrecked my Daemon Engines, allowing them to do their job.
If you run primarily Pink horrors and a single LoC, all the anti-tank firepower will go to the LoC and he'll die serving no purpose. If you run multiple Pink horror units with Exalted Flamers, Daemon Princes and other characters with less than 10 wounds, suddenly there's no good target for the ennemy anti-tank weapons. Combine that with Warp Surge and the army is a pain to deal with.
Hey thanks for the tips. I agree with all of this and have tried multiple daemon engines (3x decimators) + greater daemon as well as multiple winged daemon princes/heralds/exalted flamers without much luck. Warp Surge + Impossible Robe is something I have yet to try though, and it seems like it has potential.
To be perfectly honest most of my opponents are much stronger players than me so having an off-meta army isn't the only thing that's hurting me in these games. It's both of these things compounded that's really screwing me when trying to run pure daemons
Exactly what is it making Daemons so “trash” now? The T1 deep strike restriction is obviously a blow, but how do they suddenly go from a pretty good army to complete rubbish?
rvd1ofakind wrote: 9th ITC player (in top 10) is taking PURE NURGLE DAEMONS to the London GT:
27 Plague drones
80+ plaguebearers + triherald combo
epidemius
tree
I was using a similar list before the Codex dropped (princes instead of heralds and tree) and it worked quite well. haven't really tried it out with the new stuff we have as I have never really been a fan of nurgle. The only problem I found with it was the lack of damage the drones do to anything with 2+ saves, but their speed and base size allowed them to grapple entire armies quickly.
My idea for the list is to have a fast moving gunline with havocs and plasma chosen and potentially oblits (id rather them benefit from daemon aura) being able to forward operatives into a strategic shooting position in cover to take out key targets quickly. The daemon princes and exalted flamer can move up with the chaff and avoid being targeted, with the DPs charging when they are in range (DP with robe can tank overwatch with 2++).
With auras and flickering flames the horrors have some good firepower especially whilst over 20 models to get assault 3. But is it worth it taking them in a unit much over 20, as I know that even with a potential 3++ save im this unit will draw a lot of fire and will likely suffer from leadership tests. I have been playing with the idea of 25 or 30 with points in reserve for splitting or summoning a unit of flamers which is an idea I have been floating.
Another option is to drop the predator and take some more exalted flamers. This means my opponent will only be able to shoot at chaff or be forced into shooting units that are hopefully in covet and at -1 to hit with alpha legion rule. This would free up more points for extra horrors, splits and summoning.
TL;DR what is a good amount of pinks to run and how many points should be set aside for splits. And does this list look like it will play as planned?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/03 12:50:01
rvd1ofakind wrote: 9th ITC player (in top 10) is taking PURE NURGLE DAEMONS to the London GT:
27 Plague drones
80+ plaguebearers + triherald combo
epidemius
tree
Huh, I am currently building a similar list. I still have 10 plague drones to build. Drones+tree+scriviner is a very awesome combo with the restrictions to deep strike. I've had fantastic results with a single unit of 9, as well as 2 units of 8.
I feel that the key to drones working is to get vilurent blessing on them and a character within 6". Stack it up so each wound of 6 is 5dmg. A single failed +2 save will put a big dent into a land raider, nearly kill any +2 save character, and with +40 attacks, you'll likely be making them take 30 or so saves.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2018/05/03 13:15:51
London GT doesn't use ITC missions, right? Because it sounds like that list would do terrible with ITC missions. Daemons in general have a hard time with how ITC is set up (need big infantry blobs that give up Reaper, Plague Drones give up Gangbusters, Greater Daemons give up multiple secondaries, extremely hard to get a kill first turn post-faq, etc. etc. etc.).
They've done some real work though. If they aren't bothered with because of all the chariots, it's a crap ton of attacks/damage. If they are dealt with, you have to kill a decent amount to get their numbers down but it isn't a big deal because I have 3+ more medium sized squads. And the chariots are then ignored. I consider medium to be from 18-26 
Deffskullz desert scavengers
Thousand Sons 
Been defaulting to 24 for my Bloodletters too, has worked pretty well for me.
