Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Wolfblade wrote:

 Traditio wrote:

Wolfblade wrote:You're also ignoring the possibility of the manticore not getting first turn

It is safe to assume that the IG player will not get first turn, unless he's running tank spam.

and getting reduced to less than half of its wounds.

If the IG player is even halfway decent at the game, the only way that's going to happen is if his opponent is himself running manticores (or equivalents).

Or anything else with indirect fire, or deepstriking (which can be somewhat mitigated, but this comes down to what weapons they're carrying, crisis suits for example have no trouble plinking away with missile pods after deepstriking), or flyers. And I'm sure I'm forgetting something else, I imagine genestealers buffed by the swarm lord could get to it, or atleast fairly close.

heck, assuming it works how I expect it to, I suspect the Primaris Repulsor Tank is gonna make short work of the sucker. assuming the heavy Las cannon is just a las cannon, you'll drop in and be hitting the thing with 3 S9 D6 dmg shots. potentially eneugh to knock it out in a turn. (if you REALLY want it dead, you can put a squad of Hell blasts in it)

expensive? absolutely. but it'd kill it dead and then the tank could move on to new targets.

BrianDavion wrote:heck, assuming it works how I expect it to, I suspect the Primaris Repulsor Tank is gonna make short work of the sucker. assuming the heavy Las cannon is just a las cannon, you'll drop in and be hitting the thing with 3 S9 D6 dmg shots. potentially eneugh to knock it out in a turn. (if you REALLY want it dead, you can put a squad of Hell blasts in it)

expensive? absolutely. but it'd kill it dead and then the tank could move on to new targets.

Again, you're failing to take into account the fact that the manticore doesn't need LoS.

You simply cannot assume that you'll be able to draw line of sight to the manticore on turn 1, even if you deepstrike.

 Traditio wrote:
Even if we assume this damage sequence for 5 unsaved proto-wounds vs. terminators (1, 2, 3, 1, 2), that's still an average of 3 terminators over the course of a game, even without command rerolls. And that's low balling the damage. If we change the second 1 to a 2, that's an average of 4 dead terminators.

Oh no, a Manticore can kill 3-4 terminators over a whole game. How awful a world we live in, we need to nerf IG so that terminators stop dying.

 Traditio wrote:

Wolfblade wrote:Or anything else with indirect fire, or deepstriking (which can be somewhat mitigated, but this comes down to what weapons they're carrying, crisis suits for example have no trouble plinking away with missile pods after deepstriking), or flyers. And I'm sure I'm forgetting something else, I imagine genestealers buffed by the swarm lord could get to it, or atleast fairly close. A deathstrike will severely cripple it (1 wound left) or wipe it out completely on average too, along with the potential to deal some extra damage to whatever is around it.

A lot of this depends on the table. What is likely to happen is that there's going to be a conscript line at the front of the deployment zone, and the manticore is going to be somewhere in the backfield, safely hidden away behind an LoS blocking terrain piece.

Unless the IG player is running tank spam, deepstrike isn't really an immediate threat because of the way that the IG army works as a whole.

Again, yes, indirect fire is a definite threat to the manticore, but even then, we are still talking about a T7, 3+ save model,

The only thing in the SM codex I can think of that would pose a threat to the manticore on turn 1 is a thunderfire cannon, and even then, the threat would be minimal.

Why we would be talking about the SM codex only?

 Traditio wrote:

BrianDavion wrote:heck, assuming it works how I expect it to, I suspect the Primaris Repulsor Tank is gonna make short work of the sucker. assuming the heavy Las cannon is just a las cannon, you'll drop in and be hitting the thing with 3 S9 D6 dmg shots. potentially eneugh to knock it out in a turn. (if you REALLY want it dead, you can put a squad of Hell blasts in it)

expensive? absolutely. but it'd kill it dead and then the tank could move on to new targets.

Again, you're failing to take into account the fact that the manticore doesn't need LoS.

You simply cannot assume that you'll be able to draw line of sight to the manticore on turn 1, even if you deepstrike.

But you can assume we'll never be able to get LoS to it, terrain will ALWAYS favor the manticore with a nice LoS blocking bit in a corner, got it.

Peregrine wrote:Oh no, a Manticore can kill 3-4 terminators over a whole game. How awful a world we live in, we need to nerf IG so that terminators stop dying.

This isn't in and of itself problematic. The problem is that 1. the manticore doesn't actually pay the appropriate points cost for its combined durability, mobility and shooting capabilities and 2. the only way to counter-play with terminators is not deploying them in the first place.

If the manticore couldn't ignore LoS, I likely wouldn't be talking about how OP it is. It would still be too good for its points, but the combination of 120 inch range AND ignoring LoS makes it over the top OP.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Traditio wrote:
Even if we assume this damage sequence for 5 unsaved proto-wounds vs. terminators (1, 2, 3, 1, 2), that's still an average of 3 terminators over the course of a game, even without command rerolls. And that's low balling the damage. If we change the second 1 to a 2, that's an average of 4 dead terminators.

Oh no, a Manticore can kill 3-4 terminators over a whole game. How awful a world we live in, we need to nerf IG so that terminators stop dying.

Yeah... if the Manticore could fire its rockets more than four times, I might be pissed about it. But it can't.

Luciferian wrote:Yeah... if the Manticore could fire its rockets more than four times, I might be pissed about it. But it can't.

Again, see previous math, etc. The manticore does not need to fire its rockets more than 4 times. Every time it fires, it's going to be shooting at an optimal target.

 Traditio wrote:

Luciferian wrote:Yeah... if the Manticore could fire its rockets more than four times, I might be pissed about it. But it can't.

Again, see previous math, etc. The manticore does not need to fire its rockets more than 4 times. Every time it fires, it's going to be shooting at an optimal target.

Still, it's going to maybe kill a few guys and probably break about even on points. If it were reliably blasting out whole squads of Terminators at a time it would be a big deal.

If anything, I'd still be more worried about genestealers and deepstriking carnifexes. For 87pt you get one carnifex that fires 12 S7 AP-1 D1 shots at 18" )and 5 attacks at S6), 5 attacks at S6, rerolling 1s on a 4+ to hit dealing 3 damage at AP-3, or for 97pt, 5 attacks at S12 hitting on a 5+ at AP-3 and 3 damage. AND they DO NOT get less effective the fewer wounds they have left.

Luciferian wrote:Still, it's going to maybe kill a few guys and probably break about even on points. If it were reliably blasting out whole squads of Terminators at a time it would be a big deal.

Did you see the math?

Stripping half of the wounds from a land raider, IK or WK is not "breaking even on points." Killing 4 terminators is not "breaking even on points." Killing several SM bikers is not "breaking even on points."

 Wolfblade wrote:
If anything, I'd still be more worried about genestealers and deepstriking carnifexes. For 87pt you get one carnifex that fires 12 S7 AP-1 D1 shots at 18", 5 attacks at S6, rerolling 1s on a 4+ to hit, or for 97pt, 5 attacks at S12 hitting on a 5+.

Yeah, that's way undercosted compared to other walkers.

 Traditio wrote:
Again, see previous math, etc. The manticore does not need to fire its rockets more than 4 times. Every time it fires, it's going to be shooting at an optimal target.

When firing its rockets at an optimal target four times kills 3-4 terminators, maybe breaking even on its point cost, I'm not really impressed. It's a good unit, sure, but being able to kill 3-4 terminators over an entire game under ideal conditions is hardly OP. If you do anything to destroy or suppress the Manticore that 3-4 terminator total drops to pretty underwhelming levels.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Traditio wrote:
Stripping half of the wounds from a land raider, IK or WK is not "breaking even on points." Killing 4 terminators is not "breaking even on points." Killing several SM bikers is not "breaking even on points."

IF IT SURVIVES FOR AN ENTIRE GAME. Deep strike and damage it so that it doesn't hit on a 4+ anymore? Less damage. Charge it and lock it in melee before it can fire all four rockets? Less damage. You're comparing absolutely ideal numbers for the Manticore and getting damage that isn't even all that impressive, and you still whine that it's OP because it can kill your space marines. Your blatant bias in favor of your own army is ridiculous.

 Traditio wrote:

Wolfblade wrote:Or anything else with indirect fire, or deepstriking (which can be somewhat mitigated, but this comes down to what weapons they're carrying, crisis suits for example have no trouble plinking away with missile pods after deepstriking), or flyers. And I'm sure I'm forgetting something else, I imagine genestealers buffed by the swarm lord could get to it, or atleast fairly close. A deathstrike will severely cripple it (1 wound left) or wipe it out completely on average too, along with the potential to deal some extra damage to whatever is around it.

A lot of this depends on the table. What is likely to happen is that there's going to be a conscript line at the front of the deployment zone, and the manticore is going to be somewhere in the backfield, safely hidden away behind an LoS blocking terrain piece.

Unless the IG player is running tank spam, deepstrike isn't really an immediate threat because of the way that the IG army works as a whole.

Again, yes, indirect fire is a definite threat to the manticore, but even then, we are still talking about a T7, 3+ save model,

The only thing in the SM codex I can think of that would pose a threat to the manticore on turn 1 is a thunderfire cannon, and even then, the threat would be minimal.

How about Drop Pods? How about Devastators?

Peregrine wrote:then firing its rockets at an optimal target four times kills 3-4 terminators

Do you know how much 3-4 terminators with power fists and stormbolters cost in 8th edition?

but being able to kill 3-4 terminators over an entire game under ideal conditions is hardly OP.

It's not "ideal conditions." The only "ideal" conditions that I'm assuming is that there is at least one LoS blocking terrain piece in your deployment zone and you've bothered purchasing a couple of conscript blobs.

Apart from those assumptions, I'm not assuming ideal conditions. I'm assuming strict statistical averages.

If you do anything to destroy or suppress the Manticore that 3-4 terminator total drops to pretty underwhelming levels.

Like what?

This is not a case of "my specific army can't deal with it." Assuming normal conditions, I cannot think of even a single SM codex option that poses a significant threat to the manticore, assuming normal IG army composition.

 Traditio wrote:

Peregrine wrote:then firing its rockets at an optimal target four times kills 3-4 terminators

Do you know how much 3-4 terminators with power fists and stormbolters cost in 8th edition?

but being able to kill 3-4 terminators over an entire game under ideal conditions is hardly OP.

It's not "ideal conditions." The only "ideal" conditions that I'm assuming is that there is at least one LoS blocking terrain piece in your deployment zone and you've bothered purchasing a couple of conscript blobs.

Apart from those assumptions, I'm not assuming ideal conditions. I'm assuming strict statistical averages.

If you do anything to destroy or suppress the Manticore that 3-4 terminator total drops to pretty underwhelming levels.

Like what?

This is not a case of "my specific army can't deal with it." Assuming normal conditions, I cannot think of even a single SM codex option that poses a significant threat to the manticore, assuming normal IG army composition.

Your "normal" composition and everyone else's is WAY different. As for counters, what about the SM flyers? they have the movement range, and the stormraven should have the damage to knock some wounds off it so it isn't hitting on a 4+ anymore.

 Traditio wrote:

Luciferian wrote:Still, it's going to maybe kill a few guys and probably break about even on points. If it were reliably blasting out whole squads of Terminators at a time it would be a big deal.

Did you see the math?

Stripping half of the wounds from a land raider, IK or WK is not "breaking even on points." Killing 4 terminators is not "breaking even on points." Killing several SM bikers is not "breaking even on points."

So what? Even if it comes out ahead we're talking maybe 50-100 points difference, which I would be annoyed with if someone fielded one against me, but I would hardly blame for swinging the game if I ended up losing. If one or two models' worth of points loses you the game you probably are making other mistakes to begin with.

Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:How about Drop Pods? How about Devastators?

Drop pods, and deep strike in general, don't work in 8th edition. You have to deploy at least 9 inches away from the opponents' models.

If you bring conscripts and commissars, I'm not going to get anywhere near your manticore even if I spam drop pods (which I can't actually do, due to matched play reserve restrictions).

Devastators have the twofold problem of 1. range and 2. needing line of sight.

Again, the problem with manticores is indirect fire.

Literally the only significant threat to manticores in the SM codex is the primaris rhino, and even then, the SM player is hoping against all hope that those dice actually come out with good results. Because he only gets one shot.

If manticores were 48 inch range, needed line of sight, and could use their missiles every single turn, they wouldn't be a problem.

 Traditio wrote:

Peregrine wrote:then firing its rockets at an optimal target four times kills 3-4 terminators

Do you know how much 3-4 terminators with power fists and stormbolters cost in 8th edition?

but being able to kill 3-4 terminators over an entire game under ideal conditions is hardly OP.

It's not "ideal conditions." The only "ideal" conditions that I'm assuming is that there is at least one LoS blocking terrain piece in your deployment zone and you've bothered purchasing a couple of conscript blobs.

Apart from those assumptions, I'm not assuming ideal conditions. I'm assuming strict statistical averages.

If you do anything to destroy or suppress the Manticore that 3-4 terminator total drops to pretty underwhelming levels.

Like what?

This is not a case of "my specific army can't deal with it." Assuming normal conditions, I cannot think of even a single SM codex option that poses a significant threat to the manticore, assuming normal IG army composition.

I can name you 5 things in the Space Marines army list that are, in fact, a significant threat to a Manticore assuming standard IG list composition:
Vindicator
Devastators
Anyone equipped with an AT weapon riding in a Razorback
Anyone equipped with an AT weapon riding in a Drop Pod
Anyone with Jump Pack

 Traditio wrote:
If you bring conscripts and commissars, I'm not going to get anywhere near your manticore even if I spam drop pods (which I can't actually do, due to matched play reserve restrictions).

Then you need to count the cost of those meatshields in the price of the Manticore, since they'll be sitting in the corner behind LOS-blocking terrain and unable to do anything besides protect the Manticore. And at that point you can just ignore the Manticore fortress, it kills some models but your opponent invested so much in it that you probably come out ahead.

Devastators have the twofold problem of 1. range and 2. needing line of sight.

So put them in pods. You have 48" heavy weapons that still fire at BS 3 when you pod in, and I'm incredibly skeptical of the idea that your opponent can wall off an entire 48" bubble around the Manticore where you can't pod in a dev squad.

 Traditio wrote:

Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:How about Drop Pods? How about Devastators?

Drop pods, and deep strike in general, don't work in 8th edition. You have to deploy at least 9 inches away from the opponents' models.

If you bring conscripts and commissars, I'm not going to get anywhere near your manticore even if I spam drop pods (which I can't actually do, due to matched play reserve restrictions).

Devastators have the twofold problem of 1. range and 2. needing line of sight.

Again, the problem with manticores is indirect fire.

Literally the only significant threat to manticores in the SM codex is the primaris rhino, and even then, the SM player is hoping against all hope that those dice actually come out with good results. Because he only gets one shot.

If manticores were 48 inch range, needed line of sight, and could use their missiles every single turn, they wouldn't be a problem.

I'm not sure what I'm missing here:

Last I checked, the board was 72" by 48", which is in fact short enough for your Devastators to reach my Manticore.

Also, last I checked, terrain pieces are placed in alternating order more than 6" from the board edge and more than 12" from any other terrain item. Also, most terrain pieces are modeled with windows. I'm not exactly seeing how the Devastators can't reach the Manticore.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

 Traditio wrote:

Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:How about Drop Pods? How about Devastators?

Drop pods, and deep strike in general, don't work in 8th edition. You have to deploy at least 9 inches away from the opponents' models.

If you bring conscripts and commissars, I'm not going to get anywhere near your manticore even if I spam drop pods (which I can't actually do, due to matched play reserve restrictions).

Devastators have the twofold problem of 1. range and 2. needing line of sight.

Again, the problem with manticores is indirect fire.

Literally the only significant threat to manticores in the SM codex is the primaris rhino, and even then, the SM player is hoping against all hope that those dice actually come out with good results. Because he only gets one shot.

If manticores were 48 inch range, needed line of sight, and could use their missiles every single turn, they wouldn't be a problem.

I'm not sure what I'm missing here:

Last I checked, the board was 72" by 48", which is in fact short enough for your Devastators to reach my Manticore.

Also, last I checked, terrain pieces are placed in alternating order more than 6" from the board edge and more than 12" from any other terrain item. Also, most terrain pieces are modeled with windows. I'm not exactly seeing how the Devastators can't reach the Manticore.

Traditio™ brand terrain obviously.

Peregrine, Wolfblade and Inquisitor Lord Katherine:

You know what? Fine. Let me give myself optimal conditions. We are playing with literally no terrain. The table is completely flat.

Here's how drop pod devastators would play out:

I drop my devastators. What are they armed with?

Multimeltas? Great. I don't have melta range, because, if you know what's good for you, you have conscripts.

For the math below, I don't even bother adding in the sergeant's boltgun.

When the math is all done, I deal roughly 4 wounds to the manticore.

Am I using lascannons? Great. I deal roughly 3-4 wounds to the manticore.

Am I using missile launchers? I deal roughly 3-4 wounds to the manticore.

Am I using plasma cannons? Let's suppose I supercharge them. I deal roughly 4-6 wounds to the manticore...and one of the plasma cannon marines dies because his gun overheated.

Am I using gravcannons? That's about 6 wounds.

And then the next turn, that squad gets wiped.

Would you consider that a good trade?

No.

Now that deepstrike has been nerfed, barrage needs to die. It's that simple.

 Traditio wrote:

Marmatag wrote:Consider 2 1D3 damage rolls against 2 terminators. The expected value of each roll is 2, so you'd think you're safe concluding that the expected dead terminators is 2. But that's not right.

Even if we assume this damage sequence for 5 unsaved proto-wounds vs. terminators (1, 2, 3, 1, 2), that's still an average of 3 terminators over the course of a game, even without command rerolls. And that's low balling the damage. If we change the second 1 to a 2, that's an average of 4 dead terminators.

It's not lowballing the damage.

Against terminators, your possible damage rolls on a D3 are 1, 2, 2. Because you can't really score more than 2 damage anyway. So saying the expected value is 2 and therefore matches with the wound count of 2 is completely fallacious.

Pause for a moment and think about it. This isn't an argument you can win... it's math.

Marmatag wrote:It's not lowballing the damage.

Against terminators, your possible damage rolls on a D3 are 1, 2, 2. Because you can't really score more than 2 damage anyway. So saying the expected value is 2 and therefore matches with the wound count of 2 is completely fallacious.

Pause for a moment and think about it. This isn't an argument you can win... it's math.

Of course you're correct about that. For any given d3 roll, there is a 1/3 chance of rolling a one, and a 2/3 chance of rolling a 2 or higher (and obviously, a 3 would be superfluous against terminators).

Out of 5 rolls, you are likely to end up with 1 or 2 results of 1 (which can be safely ignored as far as killing terminators go). That means an average result of 3-4 dead terminators.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Luciferian wrote:So what? Even if it comes out ahead we're talking maybe 50-100 points difference, which I would be annoyed with if someone fielded one against me, but I would hardly blame for swinging the game if I ended up losing. If one or two models' worth of points loses you the game you probably are making other mistakes to begin with.

That's 50-100 points PER manticore.

That's a huge points difference, especially given the extremely limited options for counter-play.

Let's low-ball this and say that a manticore deals, on average, 50 points more than it "should." Great. That means that if you take 3, while we are technically supposed to be playing a 2000 points game, you've "actually" brought 2150 points to the table.

Martel732 wrote:

 MagicJuggler wrote:

 Dakka Wolf wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
I'm sitting here laughing my ass off at the ridiculous idea that IG were somehow overpowered.

That hasn't been true since fifth edition, and even Leafblower had severe weaknesses that were easy to exploit.

It was not easy to beat IG in 5th. There were no easy exploitations vs good IG players. Not all dominant IG lists were leafblower. It was just a good codex.

IG worked fine vs BA in 7th. IG players saying otherwise are terrible at the game and shouldn't be listened to. Also, good IG lists in 7th didn't use Russes at all. Just as good BA lists didn't use ASM at all. Fluff means nothing in the crunch.

Space Wolves weren't/aren't overly fond of them either.
Laugh at that Strength 10 Ap1 large blast as you roll three 3s and it bounces off your Storm Shield but fear the fifty plus Lasgun shots that you'll be taking the same save against.

Wolves were tanking lasguns with a 2+ armor IC. Let's be real here.

Depends on the unit.
I should have specified but I was thinking about TWC when I made that statement, they're a unit of three - they have 3+ armour and 3++ invulnerable save.

 Traditio wrote:


Now that deepstrike has been nerfed, barrage needs to die. It's that simple.

It was at this precise moment that I realised I was reading satire.

daedalus wrote:1. This is entirely fair to argue. The lascannoners will lose efficiency, and they'll do it damn quick. A lot of my consideration for that initial punch of the lascannons lies in the assumption that they'll be mostly intact by my first attack,

You can't make that assumption. If you are playing foot IG, the overwhelming likelihood is that you are going second. And if I see tons of lascannon HWT hanging out all by themselves, you can imagine what's going to be among the top of my priorities for bombardment.

Seriously contemplate this point:

Do you realize how quickly HWTs die to krak missile fire?

I can fully concede that the Manticore will have more consistent results through the game due to staying power.

It's the difference between a T3, 2 wound, 5+ armor save infantry and a T7, 11 wound, 3+ armor save vehicle.

Point for point, the manticores are simply better.

They're more mobile. They're more durable. They have better range. And while they don't technically have better fire power under ideal conditions, they do have better fire power under normal, sustained conditions.

2. Given the current ruleset (unless I missed something pivotal somewhere) I'm going to assume I practically always have LoS to at least one part of a unit barring something like a very dense urban board, and even then i feel like the ones I play on usually have some windows somewhere. And that's several years of experience at Adepticon in addition to local/regional games. I think it's unfair to assume that an IK will ever be hidden trivially.

It depends. You are certainly going to be able to see the IK. But a landraider? Or a terminator squad? A lot of this depends on the terrain.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Humble Guardsman wrote:It was at this precise moment that I realised I was reading satire.

It is an objective fact that deepstrike has been nerfed. Yes, it is much more reliable. Yes, scatter is no longer a thing.

But you have to ask yourself what the trade-off is.

The trade off is that it's now much more difficult to deepstrike into the opponent's backfield, and it is virtually impossible to do so if the opponent is playing foot IG.

 Traditio wrote:
Peregrine, Wolfblade and Inquisitor Lord Katherine:

You know what? Fine. Let me give myself optimal conditions. We are playing with literally no terrain. The table is completely flat.

Here's how drop pod devastators would play out:

I drop my devastators. What are they armed with?

Multimeltas? Great. I don't have melta range, because, if you know what's good for you, you have conscripts.

For the math below, I don't even bother adding in the sergeant's boltgun.

When the math is all done, I deal roughly 4 wounds to the manticore.

Am I using lascannons? Great. I deal roughly 3-4 wounds to the manticore.

Am I using missile launchers? I deal roughly 3-4 wounds to the manticore.

Am I using plasma cannons? Let's suppose I supercharge them. I deal roughly 4-6 wounds to the manticore...and one of the plasma cannon marines dies because his gun overheated.

Am I using gravcannons? That's about 6 wounds.

And then the next turn, that squad gets wiped.

Would you consider that a good trade?

No.

Now that deepstrike has been nerfed, barrage needs to die. It's that simple.

Deep strike wouldn't have got you into my gunbox under 7e rules, and won't get you inside my gunbox under 8e rules. I also have DesValle's Circle and Inquisitor Coteaz, to really make your deep-strikers stay away from my Basilisks.

Did you even bother to look at the charts I posted earlier?


No, it's not a good trade, because that's stupid. Suicide drops work better with Melta+Combi-Melta Grey Hunters. And there, you've got your 9", so you can drop in nice and pretty at 12" and fire your meltaguns. Alternatively, use plasma and combiplasma, and drop in 24" away.

Devastators have the gun range to hit the Manticore from their deployment zone.
Assault Marines can jump over the perimeter to attack it in close quarters combat.

Or, I can do even better:
Turn 1: tactical marines with Flamers. Drop in, burn away the bubble-wrap.
Turn 2: tactical marines with Meltas or Grav. Drop in, blow up the Manticore.

Or I can even better than that!
Turn 1: Razorbacks move forwards, fire AC at infantry and LC as tanks.
Turn 2: Troops unload, move forward, burn infantry, melta tank. Razorbacks move, fire, then charge.


Also, Traditio, our artillery have long had better firepower than their cost because the rest of our army has terrible firepower. The Basilisk is 125 points because guardsmen are crappy, so it needs to kill more points worth of stuff to make up for the things they aren't killing.

I'd like to point out that right now, in 7e, the Wyvern kills it's cost in enemy troops every turn [as long as it's alive and has things to shoot]. I'd also like to point out that a 170 point Manticore fails to do that.

There's also lots of counterplay to a Manticore or Basilisk being on the board.
First off, mount up. Neither can kill tanks very well, they can, at best, mildly annoy them.
Second off, move up. You shouldn't be able to beat us in a shooting war. That's supposed to be what we're good at. Maybe try putting your verastility to good use.
Third off, spread out. Don't bunch up, that's called a Template Rich Environment. When I see a bunch of guys base-to-base, I see an opportunity to take a big chunk out of your army.

Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:No, it's not a good trade, because that's stupid. Suicide drops work better with Melta+Combi-Melta Grey Hunters. And there, you've got your 9", so you can drop in nice and pretty at 12" and fire your meltaguns. Alternatively, use plasma and combiplasma, and drop in 24" away.

1. Grey Hunters are not a vanilla SM unit.

2. Even if they were, that shouldn't happen. If I can get within 12 inches of your manticore via deepstrike, then either you are playing tank spam, or else, you've deployed incorrectly.

3. Did you see the math I did for the plasma cannons? Plasma guns aren't to fare better.

Devastators have the gun range to hit the Manticore from their deployment zone.

If they have range and LoS. If we are alternating deployments, why are you putting your manticores in range and LoS of my devastators?

Assault Marines can jump over the perimeter to attack it in close quarters combat.

How do you suppose I get them there?

Deepstrike?

Deploy in my own deployment zone and jump-pack my way across?

I don't think you are fully understanding just how amazing conscripts are in 8th edition.

Turn 1: tactical marines with Flamers. Drop in, burn away the bubble-wrap.

Ok.

Let's assume I have a sarge with combiflamer, 3 marines with boltguns and a marine with a flamer.

Do you know how many conscripts that squad would kill? 5-6 conscripts. 1 more will likely die after being BLAM'ed by a commissar.

On the following turn, that squad gets wiped. They never come anywhere near your manticore.

Turn 2: tactical marines with Meltas or Grav. Drop in, blow up the Manticore.

Again, did you see the math I presented earlier?

Or I can even better than that!
Turn 1: Razorbacks move forwards, fire AC at infantry and LC as tanks.
Turn 2: Troops unload, move forward, burn infantry, melta tank. Razorbacks move, fire, then charge.

Mathematically, none of these proposals work. Even I succeed in blowing up your manticore, the price that I pay in so doing is inevitably going to be in your favor.

First off, mount up. Neither can kill tanks very well, they can, at best, mildly annoy them.

What?

How is killing a landraider, an IK or a WK with two manticores "not killing tanks very well"?

 Traditio wrote:

Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:No, it's not a good trade, because that's stupid. Suicide drops work better with Melta+Combi-Melta Grey Hunters. And there, you've got your 9", so you can drop in nice and pretty at 12" and fire your meltaguns. Alternatively, use plasma and combiplasma, and drop in 24" away.

1. Grey Hunters are not a vanilla SM unit.

2. Even if they were, that shouldn't happen. If I can get within 12 inches of your manticore via deepstrike, then either you are playing tank spam, or else, you've deployed incorrectly.

3. Did you see the math I did for the plasma cannons? Plasma guns aren't to fare better.

So? Are you trying to blow up or cripple my tank? Achieve this mission, and think about what my tank needs to do to achieve it's mission!

Devastators have the gun range to hit the Manticore from their deployment zone.

If they have range and LoS. If we are alternating deployments, why are you putting your manticores in range and LoS of my devastators?

Because there's only a couple of square inches of board space you can't hit, and you can wait until I put out my artillery to put out your devastators.

Assault Marines can jump over the perimeter to attack it in close quarters combat.

How do you suppose I get them there?

Deepstrike?

Deploy in my own deployment zone and jump-pack my way across?

I don't think you are fully understanding just how amazing conscripts are in 8th edition.

Oh, I know how amazing conscripts are. Jump pack your way across. That's what my Seraphim are going to do.

Or deep strike. Works too, but you've got to make a 9" charge. Drop in 9" from the conscripts, then charge them.

Turn 1: tactical marines with Flamers. Drop in, burn away the bubble-wrap.

Ok.

Let's assume I have a sarge with combiflamer, 3 marines with boltguns and a marine with a flamer.

Do you know how many conscripts that squad would kill? 5-6 conscripts. 1 more will likely die after being BLAM'ed by a commissar.

On the following turn, that squad gets wiped. They never come anywhere near your manticore.

Turn 2: tactical marines with Meltas or Grav. Drop in, blow up the Manticore.

Again, did you see the math I presented earlier?

I see it, and it says I should keep my manticore away from your guys or find a way to dump the rockets faster.

Or I can even better than that!
Turn 1: Razorbacks move forwards, fire AC at infantry and LC as tanks.
Turn 2: Troops unload, move forward, burn infantry, melta tank. Razorbacks move, fire, then charge.

Mathematically, none of these proposals work. Even I succeed in blowing up your manticore, the price that I pay in so doing is inevitably going to be in your favor.

Huh? Rolling up in Razorbacks works alarmingly well. They're good at killing conscripts with AC's, good at harassing tanks with Lascannons, and take more than their cost to blow up in one turn. How are razorbacks not OP?

First off, mount up. Neither can kill tanks very well, they can, at best, mildly annoy them.

What?

How is killing a landraider, an IK or a WK with two manticores "not killing tanks very well"?