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2017/06/10 03:40:53
Subject: 8th Edition Tiers and Power Discrepancies
NenkotaMoon wrote: That and to defend the whole damn thing from a deep strike is somewhat of a waste. 300+ some points to get something that can shoot a few turns.
Automatically Appended Next Post: Also there is like a laugh track or something whenever Traditio posts or is it just me?
Don't mind me, Mr. Manticore. I'll just be sitting here on objectives with my infantry, winning the game.
There's a laugh track running after every line of text Traditio writes.
No, after every word typed.
Feed the poor war gamer with money.
2017/06/10 16:47:57
Subject: 8th Edition Tiers and Power Discrepancies
Marmatag wrote: I can't rate the relative power scales, but I'll give a + or - to an army i see that got better or worse relative to what i feel the average powerscale would be. (Nebulous, I know).
Tyranids: +++
Necrons: +
Orks: ++
Imperial Guard: ++
Genestealer Cult: even
Eldar: - -
Dark Eldar: +
Space Marines: -
Grey Knights: - -
Blood Angels: ++
Space Wolves: +
Dark Angels: - - -
Tau: even
Daemons: - -
Chaos Space Marines: ++
I'm really curious how you came to these guesses? ...Specifically I'd like to know how you believe the Blood Angels increased "++"? ...they were a weak codex prior, that relied heavily on Drop-pods to compete at a lower tier, now they've essentially lost the drop-pods, gained in points and lost most of their special rules.
And Grey Knights "--"? ...they were a weak codex prior and have seen some minor improvement at least.
Blood Angels benefit as what made them unique got stronger. Their HQs are actually really solid now, Jump Packs got WAY better for them, the psychic phase changes immediately helped them. Additionally, they can add all primaris stuff on top of that. Codex wide buffs coupled with new units that will synergize well and give them the shooting they lacked in previous editions. Buffs overall to melee really helped these guys. They got measurably better so they get two +'s. I'm not saying they're "two +'s better than average," just that they improved significantly. I can't define what "average" is at the moment - no one can.
Grey Knights got measurably worse, this army is an army of psykers that can really only cast smite at reduced effectiveness and range. Their heavy weapons, psilencers and psycannons, are very weak overall, and they can't take any of the new primaris marines in their army. They have very limited HQ options, and their "force multipliers" really only come into play against Daemons. Grey Knights still have no anti-vehicle, pretty much no anti-air, will get dwarfed by any MSU army, and can't hang with the elite melee units in other codexes. Dreadknight ability to shunt was removed, the flamer received colossal nerf from what it was... Bottom line is these are a gutter army.
Yeah I'm still not seeing it, Dante is good but still the weakest of the Chapter Masters. The synergy lists you can make with the most obnoxiously lame characters fluff and model wise (Astorath, Mephiston and Sanguinor) are pretty good I'll give you though still costly. But I am trying to understand how Jump Packs got "WAY better" for Blood Angels.
In the previous edition we had access to assault out of deep strike, we had access to modified deep strikes and even Hit-n-Run, we had charge bonuses, the movement and assault ranges were the same, we could also re-roll charges and had Hammer or Wrath with jump packs. We had Assault Squads with meltaguns.
Jump packs are more consistent overall now and you can punch at flyers which is pretty cool - but I don't see this being "WAY better" for BA at least, as compared to how much Terminators have improved in 8th. BA are a short ranged army, pistols, flamers and CC units/dreads... losing the "Drop-pod of death" seems to be a necessarily evil for 8th edition, understood - but that doesn't mean it didn't hurt the already weak armies that relied on it.,
Also - you can't count "being able to take Primarus!" as a legitimate "Fix" or improvement to any army here. That's like telling Dark Eldar players to just add Eldar in 7th...
Yes, we had all that and yet we were still on the bottom.
What I can tell you is I managed to do something I could never do in 7th. I beat Craftworld Eldar last night with Blood Angels. I'm feeling pretty good about this edition.
2017/06/10 19:40:22
Subject: 8th Edition Tiers and Power Discrepancies
Tyranids: +++
Necrons: Even
Orks: ++
Imperial Guard: ++
Genestealer Cult: +
Eldar: - - -
Dark Eldar: +
Space Marines: - -
Primaris +++
Grey Knights: -
Blood Angels: even
Space Wolves: even
Dark Angels: - -
Tau: -
Daemons: - - -
Chaos Space Marines: -
I think with Space Marines I'd make them conditional. -- for the loss of the gladius, but actually a + if you're not running the Gladius. the bonuses to twin linked, all squads getting split fire, these gave Marines a biiiig boost in 8th. so well they may lack specific power builds, I'd say their base equipment is more effective
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
2017/06/10 19:59:35
Subject: 8th Edition Tiers and Power Discrepancies
What I can tell you is I managed to do something I could never do in 7th. I beat Craftworld Eldar last night with Blood Angels. I'm feeling pretty good about this edition.
Score one for better game balancing!
What sort of lists were the two of you running? Did anything in either list stand out to you as particularly powerful or weak for BA or Eldar?
I think combined arms is going to work much better in 8th. Chop the shooty and shoot the choppy will finally work close to as intended. That's why BA will fare better.
The gimmicks listed above were cut rate gimmicks compared to 400 pts of free obj sec transports. Or the scatterbike "gimmick". In short, there was no substitute for miscosted units, and the BA frankly were fair or overcosted across the board.
Drop pods weren't THAT good for BA, especially not when vanilla was rocking skyhammer. Drop melta did squat to MCs, and those were the power units. The BA had no mechanistic way to overcome anti-tank weapons not functioning vs MCs. None. That's the difference.
2017/06/10 21:09:43
Subject: 8th Edition Tiers and Power Discrepancies
Martel732 wrote: I think combined arms is going to work much better in 8th. Chop the shooty and shoot the choppy will finally work close to as intended. That's why BA will fare better.
The gimmicks listed above were cut rate gimmicks compared to 400 pts of free obj sec transports. Or the scatterbike "gimmick". In short, there was no substitute for miscosted units, and the BA frankly were fair or overcosted across the board.
Drop pods weren't THAT good for BA, especially not when vanilla was rocking skyhammer. Drop melta did squat to MCs, and those were the power units. The BA had no mechanistic way to overcome anti-tank weapons not functioning vs MCs. None. That's the difference.
yeah thats my over all feel. the armies that where weakened where the ones that relied on silly gimmicks. I'm sure we'll swiftly see new gimmics being developed. but for now I'd say 8th edition looks to be a solid combined arms edition where there are no obvious broken "I win" gimmicks
Opinions are not facts please don't confuse the two
2017/06/10 21:32:23
Subject: 8th Edition Tiers and Power Discrepancies
Vespids are actually usefull now. They aren't the best thing out there, but you don't feel like you are shooting yourself in the foot by using a squad of them!
Dakka does have White Knights and is also rather infamous for it's Black Knights. A new edition brings out the passionate and not all of them are good at expressing themselves in written form. There have been plenty of hysterical responses from both sides so far. So we descend into pointless bickering with neither side listening to each other. So posting here becomes more masturbation than conversation.
ERJAK wrote: Forcing a 40k player to keep playing 7th is basically a hate crime.
2017/06/11 04:24:22
Subject: 8th Edition Tiers and Power Discrepancies
What I can tell you is I managed to do something I could never do in 7th. I beat Craftworld Eldar last night with Blood Angels. I'm feeling pretty good about this edition.
Score one for better game balancing!
What sort of lists were the two of you running? Did anything in either list stand out to you as particularly powerful or weak for BA or Eldar?
I was using a TAC list and he was using mostly Aspect Warriors. Mission was No Mercy.
Chaplain w/ Jump Pack, Crozius Arcanum, & Inferno Pistol Can't say. Bad placement on my part, shot to death
Librarian w/ Jump Pack, Force Sword, & Plasma Pistol Good, but tried to lose me the game with an unfortunate perils
Tactical Squad (x5) w/ Heavy Flamer & Sgt w/Powerfist Good
Tactical Squad (x5) w/ Grav-Cannon & Sgt w/Powerfist Average
Scout Squad (x6) w/ Camo Cloaks, Heavy Bolter, & 2 Shotguns Average
Death Company (x8) w/ Jump Packs & Powerfist Missed their charge and reroll, so got punked by Scorpions
Furioso Dreadnaught w/ Two Furioso Fists, Heavy Flamer, & Melta Gun Durable and deadly. I'm really happy with him so far
Sanguinary Novitiate w/ Jump Pack Poor
Attack Bike w/ Multi-Melta Good
Bike Squad (x5) w/ 2 Grav-Guns & Sgt w/ Powerfist Pretty good, the bikes and grav-guns
Baal Predator w/ Twin Assault Cannons & Two Heavy Bolters Durable and average. Didn't do any more damage than last edition
Predator w/ Twin Lascannons & Two Lascannons Durable and deadly
Razorback w/ Lascannon & Twin Plasma Guns average
Razorback w/ Lascannon & Twin Plasma Guns average
For the Eldar the Dire Avengers, Falcons, and Scorpions were the most trouble. The Wave Serpents were durable, but not too dangerous. The Rangers and Wraith blades didn't worry me at all. The Far Seer and the Warlocks varied a bit, very good hit or bad miss.
2017/06/11 05:37:51
Subject: 8th Edition Tiers and Power Discrepancies
What I can tell you is I managed to do something I could never do in 7th. I beat Craftworld Eldar last night with Blood Angels. I'm feeling pretty good about this edition.
Yeah blood angels were at the bottom of the heap, even being able to just tread water is a massive improvement for them. I'm actually stoked to see them being a decent marine chapter again, and I'm looking forward to a fight with them vs. my dark angels specifically my deathwing.
Constantly being negative doesn't make you seem erudite, it just makes you look like a curmudgeon.
2017/06/11 05:49:08
Subject: Re:8th Edition Tiers and Power Discrepancies
Everything has the same characteristic system, so everything is a multiplication of infantry soldier.
Soo some huge tank worth 200 points will probably loose against 200 points of simple infantry, which also means You should probably only buy troops.
Moreover - the same tank can be defeated by the same 100 points of IG/Tyranids troops wihout big problems
I recently played 8th edition match against horde of imperial guard conscripts. With their commisairs they were unkillable and the game could only go one way.
I am not sure if I like this new "balance"
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/11 05:50:35
2017/06/11 05:54:19
Subject: Re:8th Edition Tiers and Power Discrepancies
MarcinP wrote: Everything has the same characteristic system, so everything is a multiplication of infantry soldier.
Soo some huge tank worth 200 points will probably loose against 200 points of simple infantry, which also means You should probably only buy troops.
Moreover - the same tank can be defeated by the same 100 points of IG/Tyranids troops wihout big problems
I recently played 8th edition match against horde of imperial guard conscripts. With their commisairs they were unkillable and the game could only go one way.
I am not sure if I like this new "balance"
I wonder if you could look up what snipers do for me. You might be surprised.
(As for Conscripts once you pop the Commissars it takes like, four shotguns (Deathwatch shotguns) before they're bleeding bodies and running for the hills. Guard is a lynchpin army; knock out the supports and the whole thing crumbles.)
What I can tell you is I managed to do something I could never do in 7th. I beat Craftworld Eldar last night with Blood Angels. I'm feeling pretty good about this edition.
Score one for better game balancing!
What sort of lists were the two of you running? Did anything in either list stand out to you as particularly powerful or weak for BA or Eldar?
I was using a TAC list and he was using mostly Aspect Warriors. Mission was No Mercy.
Chaplain w/ Jump Pack, Crozius Arcanum, & Inferno Pistol Can't say. Bad placement on my part, shot to death
Librarian w/ Jump Pack, Force Sword, & Plasma Pistol Good, but tried to lose me the game with an unfortunate perils
Tactical Squad (x5) w/ Heavy Flamer & Sgt w/Powerfist Good
Tactical Squad (x5) w/ Grav-Cannon & Sgt w/Powerfist Average
Scout Squad (x6) w/ Camo Cloaks, Heavy Bolter, & 2 Shotguns Average
Death Company (x8) w/ Jump Packs & Powerfist Missed their charge and reroll, so got punked by Scorpions
Furioso Dreadnaught w/ Two Furioso Fists, Heavy Flamer, & Melta Gun Durable and deadly. I'm really happy with him so far
Sanguinary Novitiate w/ Jump Pack Poor
Attack Bike w/ Multi-Melta Good
Bike Squad (x5) w/ 2 Grav-Guns & Sgt w/ Powerfist Pretty good, the bikes and grav-guns
Baal Predator w/ Twin Assault Cannons & Two Heavy Bolters Durable and average. Didn't do any more damage than last edition
Predator w/ Twin Lascannons & Two Lascannons Durable and deadly
Razorback w/ Lascannon & Twin Plasma Guns average
Razorback w/ Lascannon & Twin Plasma Guns average
For the Eldar the Dire Avengers, Falcons, and Scorpions were the most trouble. The Wave Serpents were durable, but not too dangerous. The Rangers and Wraith blades didn't worry me at all. The Far Seer and the Warlocks varied a bit, very good hit or bad miss.
Can you elaborate on the dire avengers? What made them viable.
No madam, 40,000 is the year that this game is set in. Not how much it costs. Though you may have a point. - GW Fulchester The Gatling Guns have flamethrowers on them because this is 40k - DOW III
2017/06/11 16:47:14
Subject: 8th Edition Tiers and Power Discrepancies
Sisters definitely got better-- it's not like the act of faith rules were good in seventh anyway, but they're probably slightly betterin eighth except in large scale games. Sisters are cheaper, storm bolters on battle sister squads are better, immolators have more firepower (especially important for dominion fans), Sisters vehicles are more durable, heavy bolters on retributors are better, the canoness has a decent support aura, we finally have support units (dialogous' reroll, hospitaller's regain a mini 50% of the time, and the somewhat expensive imagifiers have their 50% faith point thing). Repentia can finally assault out of transports, even though they got their attacks nerfed to hell (they barely qualify as power weapons now, sadly), seraphim and celestine are still awesome, celestians finally have a use (a pity GW doesn't know what the hell to do with them, because GW has no creativity to spare for sisters). The ecclesiarchy support units are decent, too, crusaders gaining acts of faith and penitent engines being potentially absurdly good for their price. Flamers took a hit in power, sadly, and acts of faith don't scale very well.
Still strikes me as at best a mid-low tier army, but certainly better than the bottom tier army it was.
NenkotaMoon wrote: Also there is like a laugh track or something whenever Traditio posts or is it just me?
I know, right?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/11 16:49:18
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
2017/06/11 22:09:20
Subject: 8th Edition Tiers and Power Discrepancies
What I can tell you is I managed to do something I could never do in 7th. I beat Craftworld Eldar last night with Blood Angels. I'm feeling pretty good about this edition.
Score one for better game balancing!
What sort of lists were the two of you running? Did anything in either list stand out to you as particularly powerful or weak for BA or Eldar?
I was using a TAC list and he was using mostly Aspect Warriors. Mission was No Mercy.
Chaplain w/ Jump Pack, Crozius Arcanum, & Inferno Pistol Can't say. Bad placement on my part, shot to death
Librarian w/ Jump Pack, Force Sword, & Plasma Pistol Good, but tried to lose me the game with an unfortunate perils
Tactical Squad (x5) w/ Heavy Flamer & Sgt w/Powerfist Good
Tactical Squad (x5) w/ Grav-Cannon & Sgt w/Powerfist Average
Scout Squad (x6) w/ Camo Cloaks, Heavy Bolter, & 2 Shotguns Average
Death Company (x8) w/ Jump Packs & Powerfist Missed their charge and reroll, so got punked by Scorpions
Furioso Dreadnaught w/ Two Furioso Fists, Heavy Flamer, & Melta Gun Durable and deadly. I'm really happy with him so far
Sanguinary Novitiate w/ Jump Pack Poor
Attack Bike w/ Multi-Melta Good
Bike Squad (x5) w/ 2 Grav-Guns & Sgt w/ Powerfist Pretty good, the bikes and grav-guns
Baal Predator w/ Twin Assault Cannons & Two Heavy Bolters Durable and average. Didn't do any more damage than last edition
Predator w/ Twin Lascannons & Two Lascannons Durable and deadly
Razorback w/ Lascannon & Twin Plasma Guns average
Razorback w/ Lascannon & Twin Plasma Guns average
For the Eldar the Dire Avengers, Falcons, and Scorpions were the most trouble. The Wave Serpents were durable, but not too dangerous. The Rangers and Wraith blades didn't worry me at all. The Far Seer and the Warlocks varied a bit, very good hit or bad miss.
Can you elaborate on the dire avengers? What made them viable.
Volume of shots. Three units rolling a lot of sixes. They took a toll on my army.
It was interesting talking to My opponent the next day. He plans to add Asuraman to his army next game, and might drop the Scorpions. He felt they weren't as good as the Dire Avengers. He feels that shooting is the more effective path for Eldar than close combat. And No psykers, he said feth those guys.
2017/06/12 04:42:53
Subject: 8th Edition Tiers and Power Discrepancies
What I can tell you is I managed to do something I could never do in 7th. I beat Craftworld Eldar last night with Blood Angels. I'm feeling pretty good about this edition.
Score one for better game balancing!
What sort of lists were the two of you running? Did anything in either list stand out to you as particularly powerful or weak for BA or Eldar?
I was using a TAC list and he was using mostly Aspect Warriors. Mission was No Mercy.
Chaplain w/ Jump Pack, Crozius Arcanum, & Inferno Pistol Can't say. Bad placement on my part, shot to death
Librarian w/ Jump Pack, Force Sword, & Plasma Pistol Good, but tried to lose me the game with an unfortunate perils
Tactical Squad (x5) w/ Heavy Flamer & Sgt w/Powerfist Good
Tactical Squad (x5) w/ Grav-Cannon & Sgt w/Powerfist Average
Scout Squad (x6) w/ Camo Cloaks, Heavy Bolter, & 2 Shotguns Average
Death Company (x8) w/ Jump Packs & Powerfist Missed their charge and reroll, so got punked by Scorpions
Furioso Dreadnaught w/ Two Furioso Fists, Heavy Flamer, & Melta Gun Durable and deadly. I'm really happy with him so far
Sanguinary Novitiate w/ Jump Pack Poor
Attack Bike w/ Multi-Melta Good
Bike Squad (x5) w/ 2 Grav-Guns & Sgt w/ Powerfist Pretty good, the bikes and grav-guns
Baal Predator w/ Twin Assault Cannons & Two Heavy Bolters Durable and average. Didn't do any more damage than last edition
Predator w/ Twin Lascannons & Two Lascannons Durable and deadly
Razorback w/ Lascannon & Twin Plasma Guns average
Razorback w/ Lascannon & Twin Plasma Guns average
For the Eldar the Dire Avengers, Falcons, and Scorpions were the most trouble. The Wave Serpents were durable, but not too dangerous. The Rangers and Wraith blades didn't worry me at all. The Far Seer and the Warlocks varied a bit, very good hit or bad miss.
Can you elaborate on the dire avengers? What made them viable.
Volume of shots. Three units rolling a lot of sixes. They took a toll on my army.
It was interesting talking to My opponent the next day. He plans to add Asuraman to his army next game, and might drop the Scorpions. He felt they weren't as good as the Dire Avengers. He feels that shooting is the more effective path for Eldar than close combat. And No psykers, he said feth those guys.
Eldar? Without psykers?!
Farseers and Warlocks are great. No Invisibility shenanigans, but the Unholy Trinity of Fortune/Guide/Doom is still intact. Warlocks can force a -1 To Hit modifier as their default power, and Eldrad is still awesome.
MarcinP wrote: Everything has the same characteristic system, so everything is a multiplication of infantry soldier.
Soo some huge tank worth 200 points will probably loose against 200 points of simple infantry, which also means You should probably only buy troops.
Moreover - the same tank can be defeated by the same 100 points of IG/Tyranids troops wihout big problems
I recently played 8th edition match against horde of imperial guard conscripts. With their commisairs they were unkillable and the game could only go one way.
I am not sure if I like this new "balance"
I wonder if you could look up what snipers do for me. You might be surprised.
(As for Conscripts once you pop the Commissars it takes like, four shotguns (Deathwatch shotguns) before they're bleeding bodies and running for the hills. Guard is a lynchpin army; knock out the supports and the whole thing crumbles.)
The problem is that there are ways around even that just to protect those commissars.
Feed the poor war gamer with money.
2017/06/12 13:08:40
Subject: 8th Edition Tiers and Power Discrepancies
I'll be curious as to how that holds up, as nids are looking pretty good between the cheap carnifexes (<100 points for 12 18" S7 AP-1 D1 shots, and D3 12" S7 AP-3 D1 shot), 'stealers that move 8" and can assault after charging, and the swarmlord who gives an extra move + advance).
Harlies seem pretty nasty too with their huge moves and nasty assault + army wide invuls, and flip belts. Dark eldar I'm not sure about, haven't seen too much, but maybe splinter weapons wound everything on a fixed roll is enough to tip the scales? SM, I'm not really seeing it off hand, and same with orks.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/06/12 13:20:29
DQ:90S++G++M----B--I+Pw40k07+D+++A+++/areWD-R+DM+
bittersashes wrote:One guy down at my gaming club swore he saw an objective flag take out a full unit of Bane Thralls.
2017/06/12 16:19:14
Subject: 8th Edition Tiers and Power Discrepancies
I can see Nids, Orks and DE.
Can't see what makes Space Marines strong (razorback spam?) and I really don't get why people are excited for Harlequins.
I can see Harlequins being top tier against a niche of elite infantry (Primaris for instance). Against a horde army though you are going to get rolled over. You can't take a punch.
2017/06/12 16:24:46
Subject: 8th Edition Tiers and Power Discrepancies
Alcibiades wrote: Why Dark Eldar? I must be missing something, but they don't seem that different to me.
open topped transports are now a huge benefit, they are one of the only armies (and the only good shooting army) that has all open topped transports. Those same vehicles are now tougher than they used to be.
2017/06/12 18:24:36
Subject: 8th Edition Tiers and Power Discrepancies
zerosignal wrote: Frontline Gaming's Reece and Frankie ranked the top 5 armies as Harlequins, Dark Eldar, Space Marines, Nids and Orks.
Unsure if that was ranked in order, though.
All I know for sure is my current Death Guard build is a huge steaming pile of cack.
I'm still not sure why people aren't looking at IG more, they look strong from what I've seen. If you have snipers and can pick off the relatively fragile HQs they aren't as strong, but for armies or lists lacking that they seem hard to touch. I think it is because they are more infantry/horde focused now, and people just assume the loss of blast templates has made them unplayable or something.
2017/06/12 19:57:58
Subject: 8th Edition Tiers and Power Discrepancies
Wolfblade wrote: I'll be curious as to how that holds up, as nids are looking pretty good between the cheap carnifexes (<100 points for 12 18" S7 AP-1 D1 shots, and D3 12" S7 AP-3 D1 shot), 'stealers that move 8" and can assault after charging, and the swarmlord who gives an extra move + advance).
That carnifex is 123. Still way too cheap, but not <100
2017/06/12 20:15:16
Subject: 8th Edition Tiers and Power Discrepancies
Wolfblade wrote: I'll be curious as to how that holds up, as nids are looking pretty good between the cheap carnifexes (<100 points for 12 18" S7 AP-1 D1 shots, and D3 12" S7 AP-3 D1 shot), 'stealers that move 8" and can assault after charging, and the swarmlord who gives an extra move + advance).
That carnifex is 123. Still way too cheap, but not <100
oh shoot, you're right, miscalculated my points. Either way, still pretty cheap for a lot of dakka.
DQ:90S++G++M----B--I+Pw40k07+D+++A+++/areWD-R+DM+
bittersashes wrote:One guy down at my gaming club swore he saw an objective flag take out a full unit of Bane Thralls.
~3000 (Fully Painted)
Coming Soon!
No madam, 40,000 is the year that this game is set in. Not how much it costs. Though you may have a point. - GW Fulchester 
The Gatling Guns have flamethrowers on them because this is 40k 
