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Phoenix, like Sunrifle, does nothing. The debuff lasts until the end of eldar turn.

Actually, are there any classic Iyanden lovers here? Exchange all your transports points for moar Wraithguard with d-scythes and swords, add guardians blob and see how it goes against boyz and conscripts. Best I could test are 30 scatbikes.

 Shadenuat wrote:
Phoenix, like Sunrifle, does nothing. The debuff lasts until the end of eldar turn.

Actually, are there any classic Iyanden lovers here? Exchange all your transports points for moar Wraithguard with d-scythes and swords, add guardians blob and see how it goes against boyz and conscripts. Best I could test are 30 scatbikes.

Welp. I'm glad I didn't go out and buy a forgeworld index and a squadron of Phoenix's then lol.

Still seems really good, but don't help so much with the conscript problem.

so with conscripts the math is against elder.... but what is our most shooty single wounds unit? Is it EML, Reapers, guardians?

By the math what unit doles out the most dead conscripts?

then if we spam that does it become something workable?

Phoenix is still quite good. Just nightfire missiles aren't as good as they could be

 admironheart wrote:
so with conscripts the math is against elder.... but what is our most shooty single wounds unit? Is it EML, Reapers, guardians?

By the math what unit doles out the most dead conscripts?

then if we spam that does it become something workable?

Theoretically shuriken cannnons and scatter lasers should be great against them. Unlike all the S5 infantry killers, they actually wound on 2+. But they cost 12/15 points and it takes 2-3 turns to earn that back alone.... forget the cost of the chassis it's mounted on lol.

This is how bad it is: even if we could spam heavy weapons platforms without the guardian defenders around them, we can't kill them efficiently. Meanwhile their lasguns are perfect for killing our silly elven T3 infantry...

and this thread just took away the only feasible answer I'd come across. Sigh

By the math what unit doles out the most dead conscripts?

Guardians, Harlequins & Shadow Spectres.

 admironheart wrote:
so with conscripts the math is against elder.... but what is our most shooty single wounds unit? Is it EML, Reapers, guardians?

By the math what unit doles out the most dead conscripts?

then if we spam that does it become something workable?

The answer to any question like this is basically always going to be either Guardians or Fire Dragons.

Guardians expect to make back about 25% of their points when shooting at Conscripts. This is really good -- very little else in the game can do that, though they're not quite on the level of Sisters with storm bolters. The basic plan should probably be to charge with Serpents in the same turn that the Guardians disembark while a Hemlock uses Conceal on the Guardians.

For the conscript problem has anyone considered Scatbikes? They are the cheapest way to get Scatter lasers which are ideal for combating them as they can stay out of range of the conscripts lasguns. You would want them to remain still so as not to be -1 to hit.

For 210pts (50 conscripts plus a a support character or two I'm not sure what they usually take) you can get 6 Scatter lasers. It means you can sit out of range and take chunks out of the blob without return fire and if they get closer you can move. You could even cast conceal on the bikes and park them in cover to make them quite tough to take out, as they are T4 W2 each. Guiding the bikes and Doming the blob would do a lot too.

 Korlandril wrote:
For the conscript problem has anyone considered Scatbikes? They are the cheapest way to get Scatter lasers which are ideal for combating them as they can stay out of range of the conscripts lasguns. You would want them to remain still so as not to be -1 to hit.

For 210pts (50 conscripts plus a a support character or two I'm not sure what they usually take) you can get 6 Scatter lasers. It means you can sit out of range and take chunks out of the blob without return fire and if they get closer you can move. You could even cast conceal on the bikes and park them in cover to make them quite tough to take out, as they are T4 W2 each. Guiding the bikes and Doming the blob would do a lot too.

A scatter bike expects to kill about 12.5% of its points in Conscripts per turn. A Conscript blob can just sit and take it and then eventually beat you on objectives because even after 5 turns of solid shooting with no retaliation they still outnumber your bikes. Guide does help, though you can only do this with one squad. Doom doesn't help very much because you're already wounding on a 2+.

But in practice Windriders are just bad because the enemy army will consist of more than just Conscripts. As I pointed out, they don't actually kill Conscripts efficiently -- you're just showing that they can eventually beat Conscripts if it's just bikes vs guardsmen. So the Guard player has two options. They can ignore your Windriders which are shooting the Conscripts because the Windriders aren't going to have paid for themselves by the end of the game even if they get to just sit and shoot every turn. You're not clearing away the Conscripts quickly enough to matter and the rest of the Guard army is going to be killing the rest of your stuff while still being protected behind a wall of bodies. Or they can kill your Windriders with something other than Conscripts. Windriders are incredibly fragile for their cost -- a deep-striking Scion plasma command squad, with officer, expects to kill 5 Windriders. With cover it's still 4.3 Windriders. With Conceal and cover both it's still 3.2 Windriders. Which is to say that a Scion squad, including the cost of its Tempestor Prime, expects to kill more than its points in Windriders even if the Windriders are in cover and Concealed and we're not even counting the cost of the Warlock. And lots of other stuff is really happy to shoot at Windriders too.

And of course scatter bikes are a huge handicap in just about every other matchup.

Dionysodorus wrote:

 Korlandril wrote:
For the conscript problem has anyone considered Scatbikes? They are the cheapest way to get Scatter lasers which are ideal for combating them as they can stay out of range of the conscripts lasguns. You would want them to remain still so as not to be -1 to hit.

For 210pts (50 conscripts plus a a support character or two I'm not sure what they usually take) you can get 6 Scatter lasers. It means you can sit out of range and take chunks out of the blob without return fire and if they get closer you can move. You could even cast conceal on the bikes and park them in cover to make them quite tough to take out, as they are T4 W2 each. Guiding the bikes and Doming the blob would do a lot too.

A scatter bike expects to kill about 12.5% of its points in Conscripts per turn. A Conscript blob can just sit and take it and then eventually beat you on objectives because even after 5 turns of solid shooting with no retaliation they still outnumber your bikes. Guide does help, though you can only do this with one squad. Doom doesn't help very much because you're already wounding on a 2+.

But in practice Windriders are just bad because the enemy army will consist of more than just Conscripts. As I pointed out, they don't actually kill Conscripts efficiently -- you're just showing that they can eventually beat Conscripts if it's just bikes vs guardsmen. So the Guard player has two options. They can ignore your Windriders which are shooting the Conscripts because the Windriders aren't going to have paid for themselves by the end of the game even if they get to just sit and shoot every turn. You're not clearing away the Conscripts quickly enough to matter and the rest of the Guard army is going to be killing the rest of your stuff while still being protected behind a wall of bodies. Or they can kill your Windriders with something other than Conscripts. Windriders are incredibly fragile for their cost -- a deep-striking Scion plasma command squad, with officer, expects to kill 5 Windriders. With cover it's still 4.3 Windriders. With Conceal and cover both it's still 3.2 Windriders. Which is to say that a Scion squad, including the cost of its Tempestor Prime, expects to kill more than its points in Windriders even if the Windriders are in cover and Concealed and we're not even counting the cost of the Warlock. And lots of other stuff is really happy to shoot at Windriders too.

And of course scatter bikes are a huge handicap in just about every other matchup.

Just suggesting as they are good in terms of being out of range of the conscripts themselves and I think are better than any other thing we have that can stay out of range and still fire on them.

So conscripts are best combated with guardians in Wave Serpents, I think having a squad of Wraithblades with accompanying Warlock to drain the Conscripts or enhance the Wraithblades (-1 to hit in combat making Conscripts 6+, or +1 to hit 2+ for the Wraithblades) could compliment a squad of Guardians quite well. Sure you are spending more points to get rid of the conscripts but you can use these units for more than one turn.

Wraithblades with Ghostswords on the charge with enhance kill on average 13.88 Conscripts. Guardians with Shuriken Cannon force 9ish saves with a few of those being bladestorm. Add on to that the 6 Shuriken cannons from the Wave Serpents one phase of -1 shooting due to advancing to benefit from Vectored Engines and get into position and then shooting after dropping off troops results in 17 or so saves with some bladestorm. Then you charge one or both both Serpents to soak up overwatch and charge in your wraithblades and guardians to mop up the remaining.

615pts that would cost, 3x as much as conscripts. It's not ideal but it's an option you can choose to pursue if you absolutely have to get rid of them. And they shouldn't be able to do much damage in return as they only get to fire at -1 to hit Wave Serpents and then overwatch against them.

And they shouldn't be able to do much damage in return as they only get to fire at -1 to hit Wave Serpents and then overwatch against them.

Hm? Guard has an Order that allows to shoot after falling back.

 Shadenuat wrote:

And they shouldn't be able to do much damage in return as they only get to fire at -1 to hit Wave Serpents and then overwatch against them.

Hm? Guard has an Order that allows to shoot after falling back.

It goes:

Wave Serpents advance up and fire on conscripts 5 Dead

Next turn Guardians Warlock and Wraithblades jump out

Warlock casts enhance on Wraithblades

Guardians and Waves fire on them 12 Dead

Charge phase Waves charge in first to soak up overwatch followed by Guardians, Wraithblades and Warlock

Fight phase Wraithblades inflict 13.88 casualties on average plus Guardians, Waves and Warlock contribution from assault should get you 18 Dead

On average with just those units you should kill 35 Conscripts. Which isn't that good but you should have a farseer in your force for Doom and you should be able to divert some firepower from elsewhere to take out the rest of the squad. It's not perfect but I think it's quite efficient. I'm going to look into other unit combinations that might be able to do better against them for a similar or better points cost.

Edit:
With Doom calculations:
Serpents do 20 wounds (one shooting after advancing one normal) = 3 go through from bladestorm and 11.33 to through after saves

With doom and enhance Wraithblades cause 16 casualties on average

Guardians shoot for 13 wounds = 2 bladestorm and 7.33 go through after saves

Guardians assault for 5 wounds, wave Serpents assault for 1 wound, warlock assaults for 1 wound too for 4.66 casualties.

Total with Doom is 44 Conscripts, as well as higher average rerolling from Doom grants more reliable average too.

What I didn't calculate was if one guardian threw a grenade instead or if the Warlock fired his pistol.

Farseer+Warlock+2xWave Serpents+Guardians with Shuriken Cannon+Wraithblades=728pts

Only 1 elder list undefeated currently in the BAO. the player is Adam Gati. He's running:
Yncarne
Farseer
2x 5 man d-scythe guard
1x 5 man cannon guard
2 hemlocks
3 wave serpents

Unsure how well he'll deal with the horde armies (especially guard) that seem to be dominating

 The only jp wrote:
Only 1 elder list undefeated currently in the BAO. the player is Adam Gati. He's running:
Yncarne
Farseer
2x 5 man d-scythe guard
1x 5 man cannon guard
2 hemlocks
3 wave serpents

Unsure how well he'll deal with the horde armies (especially guard) that seem to be dominating

Dang that sounds like a mean list.

I'm curious if anyone has come across issues running Shadow Spectres in pickup games, or tournaments?

I've just gotten ahold of the models and really just want to run them in my army.

 The only jp wrote:
Only 1 elder list undefeated currently in the BAO. the player is Adam Gati. He's running:
Yncarne
Farseer
2x 5 man d-scythe guard
1x 5 man cannon guard
2 hemlocks
3 wave serpents

Unsure how well he'll deal with the horde armies (especially guard) that seem to be dominating

That is pretty nasty but with the hemlocks and Serpents being T6 or higher, all those lasguns are only going to be wounding on a 6 and then 3+ saves. Even 150 lasguns (typical for guard infantry-spam) are probably only going to be doing ~2 wounds per turn so it depends what the victory conditions for the game are. The Serpents can put out 27 S6 shots per turn which will nibble away at hordes to some extent.

Ironically, assaulting with the Wraithguard might be the best option. Hose the infantry with the D-scythes and charge into combat. Wraithguard fists will be hitting on 3s and wounding on 3s with AP-1. The Guard will be hitting back on 4s (5s for conscripts) and wounding on 5s with no AP. If the Guard walk out of combat, they will have to use Voice of Command to shoot meaning they are not using it for better abilities. If they stay in combat the Wraithguard can walk out in their turn and shoot again thanks to "Implacable".

Not an easy battle for sure but the Eldar could come out on top. The key will be using the Hemlocks to super-snipe key characters like Commissars who hold Guard together. Take them out and Battleshock will make those infantry squads melt like butter. Doom from the Farseer will help here too.

 The only jp wrote:
Only 1 elder list undefeated currently in the BAO. the player is Adam Gati. He's running:
Yncarne
Farseer
2x 5 man d-scythe guard
1x 5 man cannon guard
2 hemlocks
3 wave serpents

Unsure how well he'll deal with the horde armies (especially guard) that seem to be dominating

Well that is good to hear that a list like this is doing so well. I am building towards a very similar list, although at 2K pts, I have 3x 3 Reapers & 1 unit of Dragons instead of the Cannon guard.
I also take an Autarch with Reaper Launcher to babysit the Reapers

-

 Kouzuki wrote:


Dang that sounds like a mean list.

I'm curious if anyone has come across issues running Shadow Spectres in pickup games, or tournaments?

I've just gotten ahold of the models and really just want to run them in my army.

I just ran them for the first time over the weekend in 3 local games. Both firing modes are great, surprisingly the flamer mode works really well on characters with invul saves. The lance mode eats space marines for breakfast. You move 12" can advance and still fire your weapon as they are assault so their range stat is deceiving it has a a decent reach more so than I was expecting. They are quick and the -1 to hit does help these guys because they are still squishy elves. Hug cover when you can and have a hemlock close by cast conceal to increase their - to hit. They are not great at anti-tank due to dmg 1 per wound. Having them shoot at armor feels like a tarpit trap. Particularly if you are shooting a vehicle that is decent at assault (DON'T use these guys to go after an Imperial Knight). They can usually wither the assault phase and manage to fall back with 1 or 2 dudes left enough to be annoying or run after a long objective.

 admironheart wrote:
so with conscripts the math is against elder.... but what is our most shooty single wounds unit? Is it EML, Reapers, guardians?

By the math what unit doles out the most dead conscripts?

then if we spam that does it become something workable?

Shadow spectres are the best option. With a warlock casting conceal.. scripts cant even hit you. BS5+ i believe base.

Spectres in flamer range deal d6 auto hits each, which is probably one of the best hits percentages for the cost.

A squad of 5 spectres will kill about 11 scripts and then that should kill another 8-14 i think in morale depending on your roll.. Not bad at all.

 Grizzyzz wrote:

A squad of 5 spectres will kill about 11 scripts and then that should kill another 8-14 i think in morale depending on your roll.. Not bad at all.

The entire reason Conscripts get used is because Commisars keep them from losing more than 1 guy to morale.

If you guys can't get rid of the commissars, anything you shoot at the conscripts puts the IG players that much further ahead, because it's basically the same as not shooting.

If one was to build a 2000 point list with a revenant titan want would be the best supporting elements for it.

In figuring so far a farseer for fortune/guide is super good maybe even eldrad as doom is great to.

What other things would be recommended definetly some bodies I assume any ideas

Titanicus wrote:
If one was to build a 2000 point list with a revenant titan want would be the best supporting elements for it.

In figuring so far a farseer for fortune/guide is super good maybe even eldrad as doom is great to.

What other things would be recommended definetly some bodies I assume any ideas

I was thinking of a similar list just today.

I came up with this:

The idea is that the Autarch hangs near the Revanant since it already hits on 2+, so re-rolling 1s is the same as Guide. That leaves the Farseer free to cast Fortune on it and Doom on the enemy. All the Venoms are there to also take advantage of Doom. The Kabalites are just there to be cheap Battalion filler and to unlock the Venoms

But I really think that a list like this needs to table the opponent to win, don't bother trying for objectives.

-

 Galef wrote:

Titanicus wrote:
If one was to build a 2000 point list with a revenant titan want would be the best supporting elements for it.

In figuring so far a farseer for fortune/guide is super good maybe even eldrad as doom is great to.

What other things would be recommended definetly some bodies I assume any ideas

I was thinking of a similar list just today.

I came up with this:

Spoiler:

___Battalion___+3CP
Farseer Skyrunner w/ Doom & Fortune
Autarch Skyrunner w/ Lance, Mandiblaster & Reaper Launcher

5 Kabalites
5 Kabalites
5 Kabalites
Venom with 2 Splinter Cannons
Venom with 2 Splinter Cannons
Venom with 2 Splinter Cannons
Venom with 2 Splinter Cannons

___Super Heavy Auxiliary____
Revenant Titan w/ Pulsars
____________________________________2000pts/ 6CPs

The idea is that the Autarch hangs near the Revanant since it already hits on 2+, so re-rolling 1s is the same as Guide. That leaves the Farseer free to cast Fortune on it and Doom on the enemy. All the Venoms are there to also take advantage of Doom. The Kabalites are just there to be cheap Battalion filler and to unlock the Venoms

But I really think that a list like this needs to table the opponent to win, don't bother trying for objectives.

-

Definetly is a table only list. One issue I think though is an autarch can't buff a revenant, they don't have craftworld keyword but spirithost instead.

Venom or equivalent gun ships is definetly a good idea though.

I'm trying out a wave serpent list and it's working for me rather well in 1500pts.


++ Battalion Detachment +3CP (Aeldari - Craftworlds) [72 PL, 1500pts] ++

+ HQ +

Autarch Skyrunner [7 PL, 152pts]: Forceshield, Laser Lance, Reaper Launcher, Shuriken Pistol, Twin Shuriken Catapult

Eldrad Ulthran [9 PL, 180pts]

+ Troops +

Dire Avengers [3 PL, 92pts]
. 4x Dire Avenger: 4x Avenger Shuriken Catapult
. Dire Avenger Exarch: Two Avenger Shuriken Catapults

Guardian Defenders [4 PL, 105pts]: 10x Guardian Defender
. Guardian Heavy Weapons Platform: Bright Lance

Guardian Defenders [4 PL, 105pts]: 10x Guardian Defender
. Guardian Heavy Weapons Platform: Bright Lance

+ Elites +

Fire Dragons [6 PL, 120pts]
. 4x Fire Dragon: 4x Fusion Gun
. Fire Dragon Exarch: Fusion Gun

+ Fast Attack +

Shining Spears [7 PL, 132pts]
. 2x Shining Spear: 2x Laser Lance, 2x Twin Shuriken Catapult
. Shining Spear Exarch: Star Lance, Twin Shuriken Catapult

Swooping Hawks [5 PL, 92pts]
. 4x Swooping Hawk: 4x Lasblaster
. Swooping Hawk Exarch: Hawk's Talon, Power sword

+ Dedicated Transport +

Wave Serpent [9 PL, 174pts]: Crystal Targeting Matrix, Shuriken Cannon, Spirit Stones, Twin Bright Lance

Wave Serpent [9 PL, 174pts]: Crystal Targeting Matrix, Shuriken Cannon, Spirit Stones, Twin Bright Lance

Wave Serpent [9 PL, 174pts]: Crystal Targeting Matrix, Shuriken Cannon, Spirit Stones, Twin Bright Lance

++ Total: [72 PL, 1500pts] ++

Dire Avengers and Fire Dragons sit in one Serpent, while 2 Guardian units are in the other 2. HQs go into Serpents or hide in between, so they cannot be shot; Shining Spears hide behind walls, so opponents have literally nothing to shoot at besides Wave Serpents, which are very tough, especially with Spirit Stones, and a single one even didn't go down from an Admech shooting turn. Next turn, I'm forward, close to their dep zone, and everything comes out and shoots all infantry killers to smithereens.

Yup, Wave Serpents are very solid in this edition.

Titanicus wrote:

Definetly is a table only list. One issue I think though is an autarch can't buff a revenant, they don't have craftworld keyword but spirithost instead.

Venom or equivalent gun ships is definetly a good idea though.

Good spot on the <Craftworld> keyword. I though he affected <Asunyari>. In that case, you could swap the Autarch for a Farseer on foot with Guide + Doom + some Blasters on 2 Kabalites units

The more I look at the Revenant, the more I think it is better than 2 WKs. Its first turn shooting alone is better than 4 heavy Wraithcannon and a Suncannon

-

 Galef wrote:

Titanicus wrote:

Definetly is a table only list. One issue I think though is an autarch can't buff a revenant, they don't have craftworld keyword but spirithost instead.

Venom or equivalent gun ships is definetly a good idea though.

Good spot on the <Craftworld> keyword. I though he affected <Asunyari>. In that case, you could swap the Autarch for a Farseer on foot with Guide + Doom + some Blasters on 2 Kabalites units

The more I look at the Revenant, the more I think it is better than 2 WKs. Its first turn shooting alone is better than 4 heavy Wraithcannon and a Suncannon

-

Revenant is pretty good. It's going to compare favorably to one of the worst models in the Eldar index. (Wraithknights).

Also the Revenant quickly degrades from BS +2 to +3 and worse. You'll definitely want to guide him.

 Silent_Tempest wrote:

Also the Revenant quickly degrades from BS +2 to +3 and worse. You'll definitely want to guide him.

Agreed, I am taking the GuideSeer as insurance for the opponent Seizing Initiative and stripping those wounds.

With proper deployment, it should be pretty easy for the Revenant to stay out of range of most weapons, just hop side to side to get that 24" move for the Invul save.
Turn 1 you delete 2-3 units that are the biggest threat to you, such as any unit/model that has multiple Lascannons or equivalent. Doing this each turn should make it increasingly difficult for the enemy deal with the Revenant, allowing it to move closer and eventually engage in melee for some extra punch.

-

Hey I know people have mentioned this to some extent.

Has anyone used warp spiders to any success? I only glanced at the dataslate this morning, but I don't think i saw you could deep strike which really blows for them I think.. none the less, being able to warp out of combat and shoot seems like a decent thing.

 Grizzyzz wrote:
none the less, being able to warp out of combat and shoot seems like a decent thing.

Rules as written I don't think you can shoot if you leave combat. When you use their Jump Generators, they only count as Flying for the duration of the Move phase. When you get to the shooting phase, they are no longer flying and so cannot shoot. :( This combined with the loss of move-shoot-move has seriously hurt them.