I'm Irked About Daemons And Cover

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**JNAProductions**

Namely, 90% of daemons gain literally no benefit from cover. They have a 6+ armor save and a 5+ invuln. So cover does jack all to help them.

Anyone else feeling the same way?

**CthuluIsSpy**

JNAProductions wrote:
Namely, 90% of daemons gain literally no benefit from cover. They have a 6+ armor save and a 5+ invuln. So cover does jack all to help them.

Anyone else feeling the same way?

Well...think of it this way - they're the only army who doesn't rely on cover to protect them from plasma. In order to get a 5+ save against plasma you either have to be in cover with a 3+ save or have a 2+ save. You get a 5+ for free out in the open.
And cover does help you; find some that provides +2 to saves. That way you'll get a 4+...until you get hit by plasma, at which point you'll be back at your invul.

**Cephalobeard**

Irked? I'm thrilled. All I need to worry about for Hordes of daemons is positioning, instead of trying to cheese partially being in cover, this or that, I can go where ever I please.

**Talamare**

Look on the brightside

It means you can go WILD with your Daemons.

**JNAProductions**

Which cover provides +2 to saves?

And that'd be nice, if we weren't stuck with a crappy 5+ against both bolter fire and plasma fire.

For reference, a 5 man Tac Squad with a plasma gun does (.44 bolter plus .37 plasma) .81 to a different Tac Squad at 24". But to a Plaguebearer squad (the most durable of daemons) they do (.59 bolter plus .20 plasma) .79 wounds.

Which, now that I run the math, isn't THAT bad. But again-Plaguebearers. The most durable of all lesser daemons. Numbers are a lot worse with Daemonettes or Bloodletters (1.19 bolter plus .37 plasma), taking nearly double (1.56) wounds compared to a Tac Squad.

**Talamare**

JNAProductions wrote:
Which cover provides +2 to saves?

And that'd be nice, if we weren't stuck with a crappy 5+ against both bolter fire and plasma fire.

For reference, a 5 man Tac Squad with a plasma gun does (.44 bolter plus .37 plasma) .81 to a different Tac Squad at 24". But to a Plaguebearer squad (the most durable of daemons) they do (.59 bolter plus .20 plasma) .79 wounds.

Which, now that I run the math, isn't THAT bad. But again-Plaguebearers. The most durable of all lesser daemons. Numbers are a lot worse with Daemonettes or Bloodletters (1.19 bolter plus .37 plasma), taking nearly double (1.56) wounds compared to a Tac Squad.

Yea but... Who cares?

It's part of the package when it comes to not playing a non Space Marine Army...

Basically they are and more or less have always been the only +3 Armor Army.

**CthuluIsSpy**

JNAProductions wrote:
Which cover provides +2 to saves?

After checking, it seems +2 to cover only applies in cities to death, if you don't move in ruins.
I think there's abilities that improve your cover saves, but I'm not sure if demons get anything like that.

Also, you do realize that marines only have a 6+ save against plasma in the open? Demons get a 5+ save out in the open. You don't have to hug a wall.

**JNAProductions**

Talamare wrote:
JNAProductions wrote:
Which cover provides +2 to saves?

And that'd be nice, if we weren't stuck with a crappy 5+ against both bolter fire and plasma fire.

For reference, a 5 man Tac Squad with a plasma gun does (.44 bolter plus .37 plasma) .81 to a different Tac Squad at 24". But to a Plaguebearer squad (the most durable of daemons) they do (.59 bolter plus .20 plasma) .79 wounds.

Which, now that I run the math, isn't THAT bad. But again-Plaguebearers. The most durable of all lesser daemons. Numbers are a lot worse with Daemonettes or Bloodletters (1.19 bolter plus .37 plasma), taking nearly double (1.56) wounds compared to a Tac Squad.

Yea but... Who cares?

It's part of the package when it comes to not playing a non Space Marine Army...

Basically they are and more or less have always been the only +3 Armor Army.

Skitarii and other Ad Mech have 4+s, with some having 3+s. Guardsmen have a 5+, some having a 4+. They all gain good benefit from cover.

Edit: Don't ask me about Xenos, I don't know except Necrons. (Who have a lot of 3+, by the way.)

Edit II: I know. And even then, they're basically just as durable as plaguebearers without cover against a 5 man squad, single plasma gun, while other lesser daemons are much worse.

**MechaEmperor7000**

They all have to scurry for cover and worry about enemy AP.

Daemons were always described as not giving a crap about the enemy's weapon due to them being unnatural warp entities and this may be the first time this actually being reflected on the tabletop. We gain no benefit from Cover but in exchange we are not affected by AP. You trade one for the other when you chose to play Daemons.

**vipoid**

Bah, daemons shouldn't be skulking around in cover anyway.

**vladicov**

If this is the thing that's bugging you the most about daemons changes... I envy your state of mind

**ERJAK**

Talamare wrote:
JNAProductions wrote:
Which cover provides +2 to saves?

And that'd be nice, if we weren't stuck with a crappy 5+ against both bolter fire and plasma fire.

For reference, a 5 man Tac Squad with a plasma gun does (.44 bolter plus .37 plasma) .81 to a different Tac Squad at 24". But to a Plaguebearer squad (the most durable of daemons) they do (.59 bolter plus .20 plasma) .79 wounds.

Which, now that I run the math, isn't THAT bad. But again-Plaguebearers. The most durable of all lesser daemons. Numbers are a lot worse with Daemonettes or Bloodletters (1.19 bolter plus .37 plasma), taking nearly double (1.56) wounds compared to a Tac Squad.

Yea but... Who cares?

It's part of the package when it comes to not playing a non Space Marine Army...

Basically they are and more or less have always been the only +3 Armor Army.

So far 2 'Sisters say hi' moments in this thread.

**ClassicCarraway**

In all honesty, slaanesh and khorne never got much benefit from cover before.

**BomBomHotdog**

Deamons don't care about cover, and not just because they have an invul save.

Khorne deamons get 1S and 1A when they charge, are charged, or preforms a Heroic Intervention.

Slaanesh Deamons always go first even if they did not charge. Unless the opponent charged then you alternate activations between Slaanesh and the Charging units.

You don't get a Cover save in combat and Khorne and Slaanesh love to be in combat.

Tzeentch Deamons get a +1 Invul save

Nurgle Deamons get a 5+ followed by another 5+ for each wound lost.

Then the core infantry units (bloodletters, horrors, plaguebearers, deamonetts) can all take an Icron that when you roll a 1 on moral lets you get d6 slain models back

**Terminal**

It's not a big, fundamental change to how Daemons work. But it just feels like a huge change, especially for Nurgle units, which, in 7th, LOVED to sit in cover, due to their Shrouding.

And Bloodletters and Daemonettes liked cover [well, Ruins] as it was the only way to get a better than 5+ save [other than Warp Storm or Grimoire].

With Warp Storm gone, and with how many more shots guns have in 8th, any Daemons that aren't Daemon Princes or aligned with Tzeentch are much more vulnerable.

Daemons lost 95% of their own shooting. Overall, Daemons feel incomplete [I think pure Daemon lists might become rare, as CSM units are added in to provide durability and/or firepower]. Hopefully when they get a codex, they will get special rules that flesh them out, and make them work on their own.

**MechaEmperor7000**

Nurgle was the only daemon that really worried about cover before, but that was cuz they could cheese a 2+ cover save on Daemon Princes or anything in a 4+ cover before. But that was only for this edition. Prior to that their insane durability came from high toughness and FnP. Dunno if that is still the case, but imo I disliked the 7th ed version of Nurgle daemon's durability.

**JNAProductions**

MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
Nurgle was the only daemon that really worried about cover before, but that was cuz they could cheese a 2+ cover save on Daemon Princes or anything in a 4+ cover before. But that was only for this edition. Prior to that their insane durability came from high toughness and FnP. Dunno if that is still the case, but imo I disliked the 7th ed version of Nurgle daemon's durability.

Considering a GUO is T7, I don't think so. (Which means bolters wound it on a 5... And it's literally the same toughness and LESS WOUNDS than most other greater daemons.)

**Galas**

JNAProductions wrote:
MechaEmperor7000 wrote:
Nurgle was the only daemon that really worried about cover before, but that was cuz they could cheese a 2+ cover save on Daemon Princes or anything in a 4+ cover before. But that was only for this edition. Prior to that their insane durability came from high toughness and FnP. Dunno if that is still the case, but imo I disliked the 7th ed version of Nurgle daemon's durability.

Considering a GUO is T7, I don't think so. (Which means bolters wound it on a 5... And it's literally the same toughness and LESS WOUNDS than most other greater daemons.)

Models before fluff. GUO is now the smallets greater daemon, so...

Personally, what demons need isn't cover, what they need is other types of "infantry" for each god. Some type of elite-equivalence for infantry, to make mono-god daemon armies more viable. Who plays mixed daemos? I know that in proto-fantasy thats how Chaos Armies worked, but for me has always been a horrible fluff, and even in the table they look horrible, they don't look not as a army, not even as a daemonic horde.

Green, Purgle, Blue, Red, they look like a Circus, and not the Mordheim Nurgle one.

**MagicJuggler**

What Galas said. They could use options to round them off besides dealing with the fact Chaos Daemons as a whole have too many units that specialize in "killing infantry in melee."

Be it stuff like giving Bloodletters Infernal throwing axes ("Skullsplitters", letting Beasts of Nurgle lay slime trails like a biohazardous minelayer, or even Nurgle getting a proper Plague cart, or the Skullcannon gaining better shooting/ranged debuffs as it flings skulls with different malevolent energies.

**Ascalam**

As a Mono Nurgle player, I'm hating the new cover rules.

Nurgle having DR now is nice, but we still lost a ton of durability. GUO are now easily slapped down due to the new toughness rules, don't get to use intervening units and shrouded together to tank fire, and are now the squishiest greater daemons. The loss of Biomancy is a blow too.

With the loss of deepstrike they lost the ability to drop in, weather some shooting and then make a nuisance of themselves. Nurgling infiltrate got nerfbatted. Plaguebearer weapons no longer auto wound on a 4 up, with a reroll if fighting something weak. They re roll wounds instead, so they are all but useless at doing what poison was for- killing tough monsters. They took Palanquins away from our heralds, as well as the option for ether blades. Our flying DP are far easier to shoot down now, without their serious jink.

I'm not hating in the new edition, though I'm not loving the changes right now. The Daemon codex, when it drops, may fix or replace a lot of these issues. Big units of plaguebearer are still tough to remove, but they just don't feel like Nurgle right now to me, as someone who has played them for several editions.

Cover was a HUGE thing for me in 6th and 7th, affecting pretty much all my tactical decisions. I'm going to basically have to totally relearn my army as well as the new edition, probably as a horde of large plaguebearer units with heralds as support bubbles, rather than a deep striking assault force built around GUO and smaller units of plaguebearer with icons to drop units where I wanted them.

**AnomanderRake**

I'd suggest being more irked about the other 5++-across-the-board army (Harlequins) going to 4++-across-the-board.

Though given that Tzeentchian +1 to Invuls is still a thing, and that Harlequins are all T3 as opposed to Daemons' arsenal of monsters, that could be a sensible ommission that isn't worth getting irked about.

**fe40k**

Welcome to the world of Xenos, where every rule and release favors small, elite armies (hmm, I wonder which ones we could be talking about), and not you.

But it's ok, if you want to cheese out opposing armies; take the Pair of Flames demon - 2 points for a model that has a couple wounds, but more importantly; a 4+ invuln save.

Spam the crap out of them and tie up the opponent in a mass of unkillable units. When you reach the inevitable melee, you'll eventually do some damage due to sheer number of rolls that you'll be making.

**Thousand-Son-Sorcerer**

Ascalam wrote:
Nurgle having DR now is nice, but we still lost a ton of durability. GUO are now easily slapped down due to the new toughness rules, don't get to use intervening units and shrouded together to tank fire, and are now the squishiest greater daemons. The loss of Biomancy is a blow too.

You get a better save on GUO then any other unit how is he the squishiest? He has a spell that adds d3 wounds, which if you can get 2 casts off puts you at more wounds then the Lord of Change.

Ascalam wrote:
With the loss of deepstrike they lost the ability to drop in, weather some shooting and then make a nuisance of themselves. Nurgling infiltrate got nerfbatted. Plaguebearer weapons no longer auto wound on a 4 up, with a reroll if fighting something weak. They re roll wounds instead, so they are all but useless at doing what poison was for- killing tough monsters. They took Palanquins away from our heralds, as well as the option for ether blades. Our flying DP are far easier to shoot down now, without their serious jink.

Summoning is DS with a 12 in range, in fact GUO is only PL 12 if you bring 3 Heralds 1 of them should get a 12 on average and with a CP re-roll you up your chances by a lot. As for the plague bearers Heralds of Nurgle add 1S so at S 5 the re-roll is better at wounding T6-10 (55% wound rate) T 5 (75%) T3-4 (88%) those are not bad numbers and seems to be an overall improvement to me.

Ascalam wrote:
I'm not hating in the new edition, though I'm not loving the changes right now. The Daemon codex, when it drops, may fix or replace a lot of these issues. Big units of plaguebearer are still tough to remove, but they just don't feel like Nurgle right now to me, as someone who has played them for several editions.

I have just glanced over everything and it seems like the best way to run the army (for right now) is to have a couple of big units of Plaguebearers screen for Heralds as you move up as quickly as possible, use the heralds to summon (average of 3d6 dice is 10.5) larger scarier units, almost on top of the enemy so the GUO would just appear in front of the enemy ready to charge.

Ascalam wrote:
Cover was a HUGE thing for me in 6th and 7th, affecting pretty much all my tactical decisions. I'm going to basically have to totally relearn my army as well as the new edition, probably as a horde of large plaguebearer units with heralds as support bubbles, rather than a deep striking assault force built around GUO and smaller units of plaguebearer with icons to drop units where I wanted them.

That would actually be a very good strat, you would still be able to drop 2 units of Plague bearers with 1 of the Hearlds on average, have the GUO charge multiple units to eat overwatch and then charge in plague bearers to cut down foes, or vice versa if your looking down the barrels of lascannons and such.

Edit: Also how do you feel about Soul Grinders it could put your enemy in a bad position, shoot the GUO to get rid of the D3 heal or shoot the Soul Grinder which has a much better armor save and still has the invul save, and has weapons that can range those longer ranged weapons. Plus topping out at S18 is the highest i have seen so far.

**Tiberius501**

fe40k wrote:
Welcome to the world of Xenos, where every rule and release favors small, elite armies (hmm, I wonder which ones we could be talking about), and not you.

But it's ok, if you want to cheese out opposing armies; take the Pair of Flames demon - 2 points for a model that has a couple wounds, but more importantly; a 4+ invuln save.

Spam the crap out of them and tie up the opponent in a mass of unkillable units. When you reach the inevitable melee, you'll eventually do some damage due to sheer number of rolls that you'll be making.

8th actually seems to favour horde armies over elites. Primaris/Death Guard/ even vanilla Marines really struggle against things like Orks and IG infantry lists. So a mass Daemon horde might actually be pretty pokey, especially Bloodletters getting an extra attacks and +1S when they charge/get charged and doing double dmg on 6's.

**Talamare**

You should be glad that you don't need cover.
Since you only gain cover if your UNIT is FULLY in cover.

ERJAK wrote:
So far 2 'Sisters say hi' moments in this thread.

No one cares about Space Boobrines

**Franarok**

New cover sistem is way better for armored armies (like marines) than for low armor ones.

For example, before an ork or a demon could take a 4+ save on a ruin. Now orks have a armor of 5+ and demons nothing because the inv. Meanwhile marine get a 2+

So vs small firearms marines save better than before and vs powerful weapons still can save more or less like on 7th. But armies like orks saves worst vs small weapons than before... Plus lot of weapons now totally ignore their "cover save".

The funny is that the basic marine now is cheaper than before haha.

About nurgle daemons, vs shoots they are nerfean compared with old ones. That +2 to cover save was wonderful. Also was the element that allows put a demon prince and not lost him in one turn haha.
Add it to the heavy nerf to the flys (the unit no more wound at 3+ and no more leader with etherblade wounding at 3+ with impressive ap and rerolling vs T4 rivals...). They was a wonderful fast unit wiht certain resistance. Now are kinda meh.
Can't find a use for new plaguebearers neither... To attack are better bloodletters or daemonetess. And to let on your deploy zone are better horrors.

In general nurgle daemons lost a lot. Maybe a it better at melee... But overall a huge nerf.

**Ascalam**

Thousand-Son-Sorcerer wrote:
Ascalam wrote:
Nurgle having DR now is nice, but we still lost a ton of durability. GUO are now easily slapped down due to the new toughness rules, don't get to use intervening units and shrouded together to tank fire, and are now the squishiest greater daemons. The loss of Biomancy is a blow too.

You get a better save on GUO then any other unit how is he the squishiest? He has a spell that adds d3 wounds, which if you can get 2 casts off puts you at more wounds then the Lord of Change.

He has 4 less wounds that LOC or Bloodthirster, and equal with a KOS, which is pretty effin stupid.
Adding D3 wounds in 8th is pretty much meaningless when it can be countered if there is another psyker nearby, when those wounds can be stripped from him on 5's by basic infantry weapons and far easier by anything beefier. In Matched play you can't cast the same spell twice in the same round unless it is Smite, so you would be looking at spending a minimum of two rounds buffing without somehow getting wounded, and still have a worse save (4+ on a LOC) Color me unimpressed. The new FNP works, but many weapons can slap you with multiple wounds per shot, so the odds of saving them all compared to the old days is lower. Yeah i know, whinging a bit but GUO are my favorite unit and they go down like chumps now.

[quo

Ascalam wrote:
I'm not hating in the new edition, though I'm not loving the changes right now. The Daemon codex, when it drops, may fix or replace a lot of these issues. Big units of plaguebearer are still tough to remove, but they just don't feel like Nurgle right now to me, as someone who has played them for several editions.

I have just glanced over everything and it seems like the best way to run the army (for right now) is to have a couple of big units of Plaguebearers screen for Heralds as you move up as quickly as possible, use the heralds to summon (average of 3d6 dice is 10.5) larger scarier units, almost on top of the enemy so the GUO would just appear in front of the enemy ready to charge.

If you are relying on summoning to summon your big bads that's a huge investment in points, with a decent chance of failing the summon. Lighter units are far easier to summon, and you are likely to see your army gunned off the field if you keep 600 pts (couple of GUO) tied up. Summoning is also severely limited in where it can park the summoned unit. within 12'', but not within 9'' of an enemy is a pretty narrow band when you get in close. Ive played a ,lot of games where there would be no way you could make that work if that was the rule at the time.

Ascalam wrote:
Cover was a HUGE thing for me in 6th and 7th, affecting pretty much all my tactical decisions. I'm going to basically have to totally relearn my army as well as the new edition, probably as a horde of large plaguebearer units with heralds as support bubbles, rather than a deep striking assault force built around GUO and smaller units of plaguebearer with icons to drop units where I wanted them.

That would actually be a very good strat, you would still be able to drop 2 units of Plague bearers with 1 of the Hearlds on average, have the GUO charge multiple units to eat overwatch and then charge in plague bearers to cut down foes, or vice versa if your looking down the barrels of lascannons and such.

Edit: Also how do you feel about Soul Grinders it could put your enemy in a bad position, shoot the GUO to get rid of the D3 heal or shoot the Soul Grinder which has a much better armor save and still has the invul save, and has weapons that can range those longer ranged weapons. Plus topping out at S18 is the highest i have seen so far.

Probably the way to go. Annoying because i started daemons to get AWAY from running a green tide ork army, and now it looks like i'm being shoehorned back in to one.

Frankly, much though i love(d) the GUO, the Grinder looks by far to be the better option. I will also likely bring in some Nurgle CSM to add to my firepower.

One way of the other i'll adapt my army to changing times. I'm just hoping that when the Nurgle/Daemons actual codex drops they put the GUO in a better place.

**blackmage**

tz demons save anything at 4++, that's huge, you can shoot at them with mighty lascannon and 50% of times it bounces off harmless and they can play lot of models, close to a horde army. tzangors and brimstone are cheap and you can play tons,demonettes are only 9pt and 30 of them backed up by a Sl Dp, slice in piace almost anything. so i m not sure demons aren't weak, just need a new way to play, no more 25 models armies with tons of psionic but 130 models saving at 4++ and shooting smites all over the battlefield

**Nightlord1987**

Da Ork boyz don't think you squishy daemon heads should be hiding in cover like some umie git!

But yea, Orks got stomped with new cover rules too, be grateful you get an invul!

**Ecdain**

As a daemon player I can tell you the cover change doesn't do a lot in regards to us. Keep in mind EVERYTHING is more killable now. Just having invul saves alone is amazingly resilient in this edition. Sure we can't take them the way we are used to but that doesn't mean bad, just different.

Take my tzeentch list, it has yet to lose a game out of the 5 tested so far (necrons, nids, SoB, am, and Orks). 4++ is so amazing it's not even funny. Especially on units that cost 2 ppm. Noone feels good shooting that xD