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Alex_85 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Jump Captain would be an obvious pick to keep up and give the rerolls. That's important for their offense after all.

You're fine with just Chainswords and the Sergeant will depend on whether you want him to tank with a Storm Shield (I think he can take that) or shoot with a Storm Bolter.

I think it would be better Bolt Pistols because of SIA

You can't fire those at the same time you use your TL Bolter, and you can only fire the pistols on your turn if you were in melee. As we can't expect Bikers to live that long, it makes more sense to have them shoot hard and kinda poke in melee.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Alex_85 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Jump Captain would be an obvious pick to keep up and give the rerolls. That's important for their offense after all.

You're fine with just Chainswords and the Sergeant will depend on whether you want him to tank with a Storm Shield (I think he can take that) or shoot with a Storm Bolter.

I think it would be better Bolt Pistols because of SIA

You can't fire those at the same time you use your TL Bolter, and you can only fire the pistols on your turn if you were in melee. As we can't expect Bikers to live that long, it makes more sense to have them shoot hard and kinda poke in melee.

Deviating a bit from pure DW, this was something that hit me the other day. So many bat reps and lists I see don't do anything for the sarge, they just roll him as +1 attack for his boosted stat line. But most marine sgts and characters have the option to replace the bolt pistol with another weapon. Why would you ever not take the chainsword as a free replacement? (If not paying points for a better weapon, obv). Now your sgt is +2 dice at almost no downside.

Against T3 3+ sv is the kraken round better or the hellround?

That depends on the situation. Usually, anyway.
The main benefit to Kraken is you get Rapid Fire more easily. Even not assuming that, 2 Kraken rounds is actually killing .44 Sisters and 2 Helfire is killing .37.

Remember that this isn't taking into account rerolls.

Wait, can't biker sergeants take a stormbolter and stormshield? (two items from equipment list)

3 man bike squad with 4x stormbolters and stormshield is 81 pts, which seems like a hell of a steal for a fast harassment unit.

 McGibs wrote:
Wait, can't biker sergeants take a stormbolter and stormshield? (two items from equipment list)

3 man bike squad with 4x stormbolters and stormshield is 81 pts, which seems like a hell of a steal for a fast harassment unit.

That is correct, very utilitarian unit. Since CA Deathwatch bike squads have been a good choice.

 Creeping Dementia wrote:

 McGibs wrote:
Wait, can't biker sergeants take a stormbolter and stormshield? (two items from equipment list)

3 man bike squad with 4x stormbolters and stormshield is 81 pts, which seems like a hell of a steal for a fast harassment unit.

That is correct, very utilitarian unit. Since CA Deathwatch bike squads have been a good choice.

The only thing I don't like about this loadout is that if you need to use the Storm shield to tank high AP wounds for the unit, you risk losing half your SIA shots for the unit

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 Galef wrote:

 Creeping Dementia wrote:

 McGibs wrote:
Wait, can't biker sergeants take a stormbolter and stormshield? (two items from equipment list)

3 man bike squad with 4x stormbolters and stormshield is 81 pts, which seems like a hell of a steal for a fast harassment unit.

That is correct, very utilitarian unit. Since CA Deathwatch bike squads have been a good choice.

The only thing I don't like about this loadout is that if you need to use the Storm shield to tank high AP wounds for the unit, you risk losing half your SIA shots for the unit

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That's right. We only need to consider if thise 4 points are worth for us for the risk. But, if you have to tank with your bikes high AP that's good for other of your more expensive units. Maybe you are saving a Dreadnought.

I see the stormshield as more of a deterrent. 3 bikes are not hard to kill. 3 bikes and a stormshield are annoying to kill, and a lot of players will just pick another target. I don't see the bikes as a durable unit, but my opponent will have to dedicate SOMETHING to it, and not just incidental shooting, so they're more likely to be left alone, zipping around firing their bucket of shots.

 McGibs wrote:
I see the stormshield as more of a deterrent. 3 bikes are not hard to kill. 3 bikes and a stormshield are annoying to kill, and a lot of players will just pick another target. I don't see the bikes as a durable unit, but my opponent will have to dedicate SOMETHING to it, and not just incidental shooting, so they're more likely to be left alone, zipping around firing their bucket of shots.

This is fair.
You could also use the SS last, instead of trying to tank with it. Let the 2 regular bike take wounds first, but once the Sgt is the last alive, he still gets 8 SIA shots by himself, so still a threat and potentially hard to remove.

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My only issue is that 3 dudes will never be hard to remove. I have to use a minimum of 4 in a squad. You still get MSU benefits and less drops (to an extent).

 Galef wrote:

 McGibs wrote:
I see the stormshield as more of a deterrent. 3 bikes are not hard to kill. 3 bikes and a stormshield are annoying to kill, and a lot of players will just pick another target. I don't see the bikes as a durable unit, but my opponent will have to dedicate SOMETHING to it, and not just incidental shooting, so they're more likely to be left alone, zipping around firing their bucket of shots.

This is fair.
You could also use the SS last, instead of trying to tank with it. Let the 2 regular bike take wounds first, but once the Sgt is the last alive, he still gets 8 SIA shots by himself, so still a threat and potentially hard to remove.

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Definitely what I would do.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
My only issue is that 3 dudes will never be hard to remove. I have to use a minimum of 4 in a squad. You still get MSU benefits and less drops (to an extent).

Well, by "hard to remove" I usually think of it requiring either more than 1 enemy unit to do the job, or a significantly disproportionate amount of points invested into removing the unit.
So with that relative definition, I'd consider a <100pt unit "hard to remove" if it takes more than twice its points to do that in 1 turn.

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^ That.
They're not hard to remove. They're hard to remove based on their target priority, which is very low.

If your rival does nothing against them, it is a cheap unit with fast moovement who can score some important points or tactical objectives and also kill some stuff. Also if they survive enought because your rival does not find them important enought they can give you Linebreaker.

I really think for their points they are really good with the SIA. Of course they are not "that unit thas must be removed at all cost" but, they are there for less tan 100 points.

ImPhaeronWeasel wrote:
Against T3 3+ sv is the kraken round better or the hellround?

The 40k Factions-Wiki on 4chan says this to SIA:
"Vengeance Round: [...] The best ammo against T4 and smaller, unless Kraken gets to shoot twice."
Hellfire is advised to be used against T5 and up, because wounding on 2+ is hard to achieve.

Pyrosphere wrote:

ImPhaeronWeasel wrote:
Against T3 3+ sv is the kraken round better or the hellround?

The 40k Factions-Wiki on 4chan says this to SIA:
"Vengeance Round: [...] The best ammo against T4 and smaller, unless Kraken gets to shoot twice."
Hellfire is advised to be used against T5 and up, because wounding on 2+ is hard to achieve.

I'm like 100% sure Helfire does better on T4 without a 2+.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Pyrosphere wrote:

ImPhaeronWeasel wrote:
Against T3 3+ sv is the kraken round better or the hellround?

The 40k Factions-Wiki on 4chan says this to SIA:
"Vengeance Round: [...] The best ammo against T4 and smaller, unless Kraken gets to shoot twice."
Hellfire is advised to be used against T5 and up, because wounding on 2+ is hard to achieve.

I'm like 100% sure Helfire does better on T4 without a 2+.

Teach a man to fish

http://mathhammer.thefieldsofblood.com
https://www.mathhammer8thed.com

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Pyrosphere wrote:

ImPhaeronWeasel wrote:
Against T3 3+ sv is the kraken round better or the hellround?

The 40k Factions-Wiki on 4chan says this to SIA:
"Vengeance Round: [...] The best ammo against T4 and smaller, unless Kraken gets to shoot twice."
Hellfire is advised to be used against T5 and up, because wounding on 2+ is hard to achieve.

I'm like 100% sure Helfire does better on T4 without a 2+.

Agreed. Wounding on 2+ with AP-0 should net you more failed saves against just about every T4+ target than wounding on 4+ with AP-1.
Even if the Kraken round extends your range to get RF double shots, there are still cases in which the Hellfire round would still be the better option with half the shots (T5+ with weak armour)

Hellfire is just better in far more situations then Kraken or Vengeance. It really should be limited somehow. Maybe only wound on 3+, or only getting the bonus vs MONSTERS.

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 Galef wrote:

It really should be limited somehow.

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Sod off with that garbage thank you very much.

Sterling191 wrote:

 Galef wrote:

It really should be limited somehow.

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Sod off with that garbage thank you very much.

If you don't recognize there is an internal balance issue with SIA, that's fine. But it doesn't make it less true
Having a "wound on 2+" option is just plain good. So good that the other options are niche at best. Useful, sure, but very niche in comparison.

Ask yourself this: If you had to pick your SIA mode pregame for the whole army (like Mission Tactics) and that mode is what every unit had to use, would you every take anything but Hellfire rounds for every game?
No, you wouldn't and nor would anyone else. But if Hellfire rounds only wounded on 3+, there would be that many more situations in which Kraken or Vengeance bolts would have a purpose, making it a harder choice. And that's my point. There should NEVER be a "default" option. That's a pretty clear indication of an internal balance issue.

And I am not talking about EXTERNAL balance at all, here. I have no desire or intention to nerf DW, which is probably what you have issue with. I just want the other SIA modes to have purpose over "just use Hellfire instead"

Wounding on 3+ would do this. You'd still get to re-roll 1s using Mission Tactics and you could still wound on 2+ if you use a Stratagem. So in the end it wouldn't be a massive change, but leaves just enough room for the other SIAs to have purpose

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Quite literally every time anyone discusses SIA, you swoop in banging the "HELLFIRE IS THE OP, IT MUST DIESSS!!!!!1" megaphone to the point of vomitousness.

I'm sick and tired of it.

Every round besides Dragonfire has its role. If you want to go on a crusade, direct your attention there.

 Galef wrote:

Sterling191 wrote:

 Galef wrote:

It really should be limited somehow.

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Sod off with that garbage thank you very much.

If you don't recognize there is an internal balance issue with SIA, that's fine. But it doesn't make it less true
Having a "wound on 2+" option is just plain good. So good that the other options are niche at best. Useful, sure, but very niche in comparison.

Ask yourself this: If you had to pick your SIA mode pregame for the whole army (like Mission Tactics) and that mode is what every unit had to use, would you every take anything but Hellfire rounds for every game?
No, you wouldn't and nor would anyone else. But if Hellfire rounds only wounded on 3+, there would be that many more situations in which Kraken or Vengeance bolts would have a purpose, making it a harder choice. And that's my point. There should NEVER be a "default" option. That's a pretty clear indication of an internal balance issue.

And I am not talking about EXTERNAL balance at all, here. I have no desire or intention to nerf DW, which is probably what you have issue with. I just want the other SIA modes to have purpose over "just use Hellfire instead"

Wounding on 3+ would do this. You'd still get to re-roll 1s using Mission Tactics and you could still wound on 2+ if you use a Stratagem. So in the end it wouldn't be a massive change, but leaves just enough room for the other SIAs to have purpose

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Have you actually seen the Ammo Chart someone posted here a while back? Helfire loses in a lot more situations than you'd think. The people complaining about the 2+ need to bugger off with their non-math nonsense.

How is going from 2+ to 3+ "HELLFIRE IS THE OP, IT MUST DIESSS!!!!"?
It's a small tweak that gives the other options some room? I DO NOT want Hellfire to die. I just don't want it to be the default choice, which it very clearly is, from a Tactics pov.

But whatever, I'll drop it. It's not like GW is going to change it anyway, so I'll just continue to use Hellfire rounds as the default mode.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Have you actually seen the Ammo Chart someone posted here a while back? Helfire loses in a lot more situations than you'd think. The people complaining about the 2+ need to bugger off with their non-math nonsense.

Actually, no I have not. I'd very much be interesting to see that.
Does it take into account the re-roll 1s? Because that makes a difference.

Maybe it's just my dice, but I have actually rolled hundreds of dice "mathing" this out over about a hour (I was really bored one night). Using the same rolls, I tracked how many wounds would have been done against various targets, accounting for AP-1/2. Aside from T3 targets and anything with a 2+ armour, Hellfire rounds caused nearly twice the unsaved wounds in most cases.
The biggest contributor seemed to be the reroll 1s, as it did not affect the Kraken or Vengeance nearly as much (because 2s, 3s and 4s were still fails against certain targets)

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 Galef wrote:

It's a small tweak that gives the other options some room?

Except it isn't. It makes Kraken the default round to use on anything excepting T5+ non-vehicle targets and T6+ vehicle targets.

Right now, Hellfire is the anti heavy infantry / monster round. Kraken is the generic ranged / Light Infantry round, and Vengeance is the Vee hunting round. Hellfire simply gets hate because some people cant wrap their brain around small arms getting a 2+ wound roll.

I *highly* recommend digging up the math flowchart. You're regularly overlooking multiple instances in your vendetta against Hellfire.

Sterling191 wrote:
....your vendetta against Hellfire.

Which does not exist, sorry if I've given that impression. I would like to ask that you stop referring to my opinion in such a hostile manner. I will try to do that same and stop posting my opinion about Hellfire rounds since it is clearly non-productive

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 Galef wrote:
How is going from 2+ to 3+ "HELLFIRE IS THE OP, IT MUST DIESSS!!!!"?
It's a small tweak that gives the other options some room? I DO NOT want Hellfire to die. I just don't want it to be the default choice, which it very clearly is, from a Tactics pov.

But whatever, I'll drop it. It's not like GW is going to change it anyway, so I'll just continue to use Hellfire rounds as the default mode.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Have you actually seen the Ammo Chart someone posted here a while back? Helfire loses in a lot more situations than you'd think. The people complaining about the 2+ need to bugger off with their non-math nonsense.

Actually, no I have not. I'd very much be interesting to see that.
Does it take into account the re-roll 1s? Because that makes a difference.

Maybe it's just my dice, but I have actually rolled hundreds of dice "mathing" this out over about a hour (I was really bored one night). Using the same rolls, I tracked how many wounds would have been done against various targets, accounting for AP-1/2. Aside from T3 targets and anything with a 2+ armour, Hellfire rounds caused nearly twice the unsaved wounds in most cases.
The biggest contributor seemed to be the reroll 1s, as it did not affect the Kraken or Vengeance nearly as much (because 2s, 3s and 4s were still fails against certain targets)

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I literally kept it on my phone for game use, and I'm uploading it to Imgur for ease of access.

The math assumes Valid Target each time for Dragonfire and Helfire, so keep that in mind.

Thanx Slayer-Fan. That's really helpful. Although, correct my reading of that, but it looks like Kraken is never ideal, which is surprising considering even Dragonfire has some green on that chart.

Obviously that would change if there are situations in which Kraken would give double shots when other mode would not

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 Galef wrote:
Thanx Slayer-Fan. That's really helpful. Although, correct my reading of that, but it looks like Kraken is never ideal, which is surprising considering even Dragonfire has some green on that chart.

Obviously that would change if there are situations in which Kraken would give double shots when other mode would not

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And when you look at double the shots, you up notice how Kraken gets ahead overall.

What's RR1 and RRA?

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