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ImPhaeronWeasel wrote:
A question for more competitive play:

Do you deepstrike all your VetSquads( whatever the loadout)? Or do you keep them in a bubble with the watchmaster?

Ive seen a lot of people just having 3 identical squads (mostly SS/SB combo) and no watchmaster.

Depends on the game. Usually keep at least 1 in deepstrike, occasionally 3. IMO you almost always want at least one unit in the sky to keep your opponent honest, him knowing he has ~36-40 SIA shots dropping in anywhere makes sure he can't afford to ignore backfield stuff and screening.

To always deepstrike a certain number of units signals lack of creativity and/or critical thinking. Always be looking for instances where you vary your tactics.

You should DS zero if there's reapers+ farseer on the table. You're giving them free shooting phases.

I always leave in DS my 2 Veteran squads. They allow me to have a big flexibility and deploy them where and when I need them more. You feel you opponent is worried about those squads because mostly he doens´t know where you will place them. They are my favourite unit and they give me the best results in my army.

Same here, in the most of my games i DS 2 Vet Squads (3 Chainsword + SB, 5 SB & SS, 1 Termi Mace & SS, 1 VV 2 Bolt Pistols) and if i play him, which i do rly often^^, my lovley Leviathan with 2 Stormcannons

Hesselhof wrote:
Same here, in the most of my games i DS 2 Vet Squads (3 Chainsword + SB, 5 SB & SS, 1 Termi Mace & SS, 1 VV 2 Bolt Pistols) and if i play him, which i do rly often^^, my lovley Leviathan with 2 Stormcannons

New to 8th edition. Is there really no reason to use Intercessors? They statistically beat that squad for points against teach other and will do better against 0 amp weapons or -1 weapons. For about 40 points less you could deep strike 10 Intercessors that give off 20 shots with vengeance rounds. That puts the stalker Bolter at -3AP which makes it equivalent to about 30 shots from storm bolsters against anything that is 2+ to 4+ saves. If we need the fly ability we can replace one of the Intercessors for a plasma inception and end up with the same cost as well as an awesome 4x plasma shots. If you want distance using kraken could give you an 18” gap for rapid fire at -2ap in order to stay safe from perhaps 12” rapid fire 2D weapons that lay behind your primary target.

Feels like 20 wounds could be just as useful depending On the matchup.

GameDadZ wrote:

Hesselhof wrote:
Same here, in the most of my games i DS 2 Vet Squads (3 Chainsword + SB, 5 SB & SS, 1 Termi Mace & SS, 1 VV 2 Bolt Pistols) and if i play him, which i do rly often^^, my lovley Leviathan with 2 Stormcannons

New to 8th edition. Is there really no reason to use Intercessors? They statistically beat that squad for points against teach other and will do better against 0 amp weapons or -1 weapons. For about 40 points less you could deep strike 10 Intercessors that give off 20 shots with vengeance rounds. That puts the stalker Bolter at -3AP which makes it equivalent to about 30 shots from storm bolsters against anything that is 2+ to 4+ saves. If we need the fly ability we can replace one of the Intercessors for a plasma inception and end up with the same cost as well as an awesome 4x plasma shots. If you want distance using kraken could give you an 18” gap for rapid fire at -2ap in order to stay safe from perhaps 12” rapid fire 2D weapons that lay behind your primary target.

Feels like 20 wounds could be just as useful depending On the matchup.

Not sure what Stalker bolter you're talking about, the Primaris Stalker bolter is complete garbage.

The main issues with Intercessors are A) no invulns available, B) the prevalence of D2 weapons (Tau, Disintegrators, Knight weapons) at times make those extra wounds a waste of points, and C) less variability, bonuses, and options than Vet squads.

Bottom line is
Vet squads get: immune to morale, fall back and shoot and charge, heroic intervention, 3+ invulns, more shots, greater charge radius.
Intercessor squads get: move or advance without shooting penalty, fall back and shoot. I guess Shock grenades too, but I have yet to see anyone actually get those to consistently work due to the range.

Best case scenario IMO is Intercessors are ok as a backline firesupport/objective holder, or as a slightly more mobile firebase in Intercessor/Aggressor squads, but even then their jobs can be filled just as well or better with Vet squads. Maybe if the Shadowspear units add some abilities to mixed squads they'll be a better pick.

 Creeping Dementia wrote:

GameDadZ wrote:

Hesselhof wrote:
Same here, in the most of my games i DS 2 Vet Squads (3 Chainsword + SB, 5 SB & SS, 1 Termi Mace & SS, 1 VV 2 Bolt Pistols) and if i play him, which i do rly often^^, my lovley Leviathan with 2 Stormcannons

New to 8th edition. Is there really no reason to use Intercessors? They statistically beat that squad for points against teach other and will do better against 0 amp weapons or -1 weapons. For about 40 points less you could deep strike 10 Intercessors that give off 20 shots with vengeance rounds. That puts the bolt rifle at -3AP which makes it equivalent to about 30 shots from storm bolsters against anything that is 2+ to 4+ saves. If we need the fly ability we can replace one of the Intercessors for a plasma inception and end up with the same cost as well as an awesome 4x plasma shots. If you want distance using kraken could give you an 18” gap for rapid fire at -2ap in order to stay safe from perhaps 12” rapid fire 2D weapons that lay behind your primary target.

Feels like 20 wounds could be just as useful depending On the matchup.

Not sure what Stalker bolter you're talking about, the Primaris Stalker bolter is complete garbage.

The main issues with Intercessors are A) no invulns available, B) the prevalence of D2 weapons (Tau, Disintegrators, Knight weapons) at times make those extra wounds a waste of points, and C) less variability, bonuses, and options than Vet squads.

Bottom line is
Vet squads get: immune to morale, fall back and shoot and charge, heroic intervention, 3+ invulns, more shots, greater charge radius.
Intercessor squads get: move or advance without shooting penalty, fall back and shoot. I guess Shock grenades too, but I have yet to see anyone actually get those to consistently work due to the range.

Best case scenario IMO is Intercessors are ok as a backline firesupport/objective holder, or as a slightly more mobile firebase in Intercessor/Aggressor squads, but even then their jobs can be filled just as well or better with Vet squads. Maybe if the Shadowspear units add some abilities to mixed squads they'll be a better pick.

Sorry was referring to bolt rifles.H

As for Tau and Knights, that seems to be what I was referring to in that the advantage of single would 3++ seems quite match specific. Against bolters and many low AP one would attacks, it doesn’t actually do much.

It seems your squad is referring to terminator, bike, Vanguard, black shield, Sergant and 5 vets. Yes there are lots of weapons that have 2D. But this vet squad seems extremely vulnerable to mortal wounds and horde clearing fire that doesn’t care for invulnerability.

I am more curious about this close combat focus. I did not realize that veteran squads were often used for charging into melee. Often deep strike leaves you more than 9 inches away so you would need a 10 on the charge to reach when you land. You are most likely going to just give them a free overwatch shot. Not very familiar with this tactic.

If we are talking about just mobility without close combat, the superior range of bolt rifles also makes up for that anyways. I’ve watched a few battle reports and haven’t seen any close combat charges. Guess an inceptor will only give you half that extra distance On the first sling shot but you may get two chances at a mortal wound.

And again, the Intercessors squad has 4 plasma shots which is already more than enough to close damage gap between the squads. The idea that the storm bolters are way stronger is more intuitive than mathematical because 36 sounds bigger than 22 shots irregardless of AP difference and range advantages.

It’s a 9” charge out of deep strike.

Oh yes, you only need to be within an inch. Forgot about that. Still not sure if that is the preferred tactic then 1. If you shoot that nearby squad, assuming you kill anything and they don’t want to be charged, they could just take a few models from the closest spots.

GameDadZ wrote:

As for Tau and Knights, that seems to be what I was referring to in that the advantage of single would 3++ seems quite match specific. Against bolters and many low AP one would attacks, it doesn’t actually do much.

This is why you have a Terminator in the squad, and cover hop. 2+ armor for all your bolter and flashlight shrugging needs. Plus morale immunity.

GameDadZ wrote:

It seems your squad is referring to terminator, bike, Vanguard, black shield, Sergant and 5 vets. Yes there are lots of weapons that have 2D. But this vet squad seems extremely vulnerable to mortal wounds and horde clearing fire that doesn’t care for invulnerability.

Mortal wounds are a concern, but there are ways of mitigating that. Fortis teams have no defense against multi-damage high AP weaponry.

GameDadZ wrote:

I am more curious about this close combat focus. I did not realize that veteran squads were often used for charging into melee. Often deep strike leaves you more than 9 inches away so you would need a 10 on the charge to reach when you land. You are most likely going to just give them a free overwatch shot. Not very familiar with this tactic.

Veteran teams dont want to be in melee. The fall back and shoot/charge is to prevent them from being tied up in melee by enemy chaff units. It means the only way to stop a Deathwatch squad from shooting is to either fully wrap it up, or destroy it. Both of which take considerable resources.

GameDadZ wrote:

If we are talking about just mobility without close combat, the superior range of bolt rifles also makes up for that anyways. I’ve watched a few battle reports and haven’t seen any close combat charges. Guess an inceptor will only give you half that extra distance On the first sling shot but you may get two chances at a mortal wound.

Inceptor mortal wound output is negligble, and 6" of extra range on the Bolt Rifle is more than mitigated by the double output under 15 inches from the Storm Bolter.

GameDadZ wrote:

And again, the Intercessors squad has 4 plasma shots which is already more than enough to close damage gap between the squads. The idea that the storm bolters are way stronger is more intuitive than mathematical because 36 sounds bigger than 22 shots irregardless of AP difference and range advantages.

Vets can take a whole host of special and heavy weapons, including plasma. They wont get the tasty AP-4 of Primaris plasma rifles, but their resilience more than makes up for it.

In short, Intercessor squads can do work, but with the change to bolter discipline, nothing beats the resilience and mid-range firepower of Veterans right now. If you want long range firepower, give a squad or two of Veterans Stalker Boltguns and Missile Launchers. They'll lock down an entire side of the board.

Hmm that’s very interesting. Didn’t know about moral immunity but that sounds super good. I feel like one terminator is still to thin of a line before conventional weak weapons get through the gates. I’m assuming if you used the 2+ save the wounds that go through must be allocated to the terminator?

It would be very cool to see what other weapons I could take instead of SB as well because there certainly is something monotonous about it. I also realized, I have no idea where to get storm bolters from... they don’t come in anything except terminators.

Gonna give this and Primaris a try in the field.

GameDadZ wrote:
Hmm that’s very interesting. Didn’t know about moral immunity but that sounds super good. I feel like one terminator is still to thin of a line before conventional weak weapons get through the gates. I’m assuming if you used the 2+ save the wounds that go through must be allocated to the terminator?

Correct, thats why cover is so important. AP0 wounds that make it through can then be allocated to any unit in the squad instead of the termie while retaining the 2+ profile.

GameDadZ wrote:
It would be very cool to see what other weapons I could take instead of SB as well because there certainly is something monotonous about it. I also realized, I have no idea where to get storm bolters from... they don’t come in anything except terminators.

Getting bits for a WYSIWYG Veteran army is a pain. The easier route is simply convert primaris and use reasonable counts-as logic. Bonus points cause the end result is far more customizeable from a bits compatibility standpoint (for instance both Custodes and AoS Sigmarine parts are fully compatible with Primaris bodies, not to mention things like Rievers, Hellblasters and eventually Vanguard models), and dont look like muppets.

Veterans are so much better tan Primaris that there is nothing to discuss about them. I stopped playing my veterans for a couple of games because they did so much pain that I only Heard my friends crying arround.

And the Fragcannons are one of the best weapons I have ever seen. They are the definition of pain and terror. You see your rival going as far as posible of your Vets that you have to laugh.

In resume, veterans are funny to play, they have so much options and DS them gives you a lot of versatility.

Alex_85 wrote:
eterans are so much better tan Primaris that there is nothing to discuss about them. I stopped playing my veterans for a couple of games because they did so much pain that I only Heard my friends crying arround.

And the Fragcannons are one of the best weapons I have ever seen. They are the definition of pain and terror. You see your rival going as far as posible of your Vets that you have to laugh.

In resume, veterans are funny to play, they have so much options and DS them gives you a lot of versatility.

The moment you start getting away from the storm shield/storm bolter Vets, the more like the Primaris you become - less efficient. Those options become somewhat meaningless when there's such a massively superior choice in all situations, so technically that Vet build is so much better than all other Vet builds that there's nothing to discuss about them either.

While the codex is one of the more competitive Astartes books today, that success is matched only by the monumental failure in killing the truly iconic DW themes. It's the illusion of choice. You can take a ton of different weapons in a ton of different combinations, customizing your Vet squads for a variety of purposes, but to do so is to be just as inefficient with your list building as adding Primaris is.

The third ranked ITC Deathwatch player runs pure Primaris. Dunno what he's doing, but he must have found some way to get good use out of them.

RogueApiary wrote:
The third ranked ITC Deathwatch player runs pure Primaris. Dunno what he's doing, but he must have found some way to get good use out of them.

Two Intercessor/Hellblaster units and one auto bolt rifle unit w/ 3 Aggressors, watch master, and smash captain. Two Xiphons as well. The rest in AM Emperor's wrath and an assassin.

Solid list for the RTT circuit.

RogueApiary wrote:
The third ranked ITC Deathwatch player runs pure Primaris. Dunno what he's doing, but he must have found some way to get good use out of them.

Inefficient and ineffective are not 1:1 variables in this case. You can do quite a lot with Primaris DW. Veterans simply do it better in the post CA2018 environment.

Sterling191 wrote:

GameDadZ wrote:
Hmm that’s very interesting. Didn’t know about moral immunity but that sounds super good. I feel like one terminator is still to thin of a line before conventional weak weapons get through the gates. I’m assuming if you used the 2+ save the wounds that go through must be allocated to the terminator?

Correct, thats why cover is so important. AP0 wounds that make it through can then be allocated to any unit in the squad instead of the termie while retaining the 2+ profile.

GameDadZ wrote:
It would be very cool to see what other weapons I could take instead of SB as well because there certainly is something monotonous about it. I also realized, I have no idea where to get storm bolters from... they don’t come in anything except terminators.

Getting bits for a WYSIWYG Veteran army is a pain. The easier route is simply convert primaris and use reasonable counts-as logic. Bonus points cause the end result is far more customizeable from a bits compatibility standpoint (for instance both Custodes and AoS Sigmarine parts are fully compatible with Primaris bodies, not to mention things like Rievers, Hellblasters and eventually Vanguard models), and dont look like muppets.

It does bother me if I’m just slapping on bolters and calling them storm bolters. So far I’ve scavenged 3 combi
Bolters from my Tartaros squad. It is at least the same weapon with a different name. I am also getting 13 Sternguard Veterans that come with 4x storm bolters. It is certainly a pain in the ass though. Asked my local gamesworkshop to spread the news I’m buying extra Storm Bolters.

GameDadZ wrote:

It does bother me if I’m just slapping on bolters and calling them storm bolters.

Primaris assault bolt rifles make reasonable counts-as options, especially if (like me) you convert the accompanying Primaris-scale bodies. Its not perfect, but its a compromise choice that is both visually identifiable (no scope, big magazine) and easy on the wallet. Its not perfect by any means, but it gets the job done.

I'm dusting off my Deathwatch for 8th edition. I'm getting around to painting the whole mess, and doing some conversions.

Quick question: storm bolter/storm shield veterans seem to be the way to go now. Does it make any sense to make one of them a terminator armed with a storm bolter and storm shield? A terminator without a power weapon just feels wrong, but he does add an extra wound and makes the squad immune from moral tests.

 cuda1179 wrote:


Quick question: storm bolter/storm shield veterans seem to be the way to go now. Does it make any sense to make one of them a terminator armed with a storm bolter and storm shield? A terminator without a power weapon just feels wrong, but he does add an extra wound and makes the squad immune from moral tests.

You absolutely want to include a terminator in a squad as it imparts immunity to morale, as well as a model that can shrug off AP0 fire outside of cover (remember, you get to choose which model rolls their save against a wound). Unfortunately, they can only take a SS if they are packing a thunder hammer.

Darn. For some reason I was thinking storm shields were in the terminator equipment list.

 cuda1179 wrote:
Darn. For some reason I was thinking storm shields were in the terminator equipment list.

I thought the same when I started DW.

 cuda1179 wrote:
Darn. For some reason I was thinking storm shields were in the terminator equipment list.

The termie wargear list is...weird. To put it simply.

In all honesty though, the terminator's job is to soak AP0 fire. Putting a SS on it makes it less efficient at that job. The vets are there to haul the 3++ around.

Its counterintuitive, but it works.

Have any recommendations on my first match against orks?

These are all the models I have:

Watch captain

Smash captain (I assume? Thunder hammer and storm shield, haven’t glued weapon so let me know if there is a better weapon here)

5x Intercessors w/ bolt rifles

10x veterans with SS/SB (found someone who makes custom bits)

5x veteran vanguards
1x chainsword/bolt pistol
2x thunder hammer and storm shield
1x lightning claws
1x relic blade and plasma pistol.

3x inceptors w/ plasma

3x aggressors w/ auto stormbolt gauntlets

1x Venerable dreadnaught w/ twin las, DCCW and SB.

1x Knight Crusader with RFBC and Avenger Gatling (have not started painting on it yet)

5x terminators w/ SB/Power-fist

It’s going to be 1250pt game. Any recommendations would be awesome.

I should mention this will also be my first game of 40k.

GameDadZ wrote:
Have any recommendations on my first match against orks?

These are all the models I have:

Watch captain

Smash captain (I assume? Thunder hammer and storm shield, haven’t glued weapon so let me know if there is a better weapon here)

5x Intercessors w/ bolt rifles

10x veterans with SS/SB (found someone who makes custom bits)

5x veteran vanguards
1x chainsword/bolt pistol
2x thunder hammer and storm shield
1x lightning claws
1x relic blade and plasma pistol.

3x inceptors w/ plasma

3x aggressors w/ auto stormbolt gauntlets

1x Venerable dreadnaught w/ twin las, DCCW and SB.

1x Knight Crusader with RFBC and Avenger Gatling (have not started painting on it yet)

5x terminators w/ SB/Power-fist

It’s going to be 1250pt game. Any recommendations would be awesome.

I should mention this will also be my first game of 40k.

Take a battalion, you have the HQ covered, and yes a Thunder Hammer is a good pick. Relic Blade isn't bad either but has a slightly different role.

For Troops:
A) 5 Intercessors and 3 Agressors. Throw in inceptors if you have points at the end.

B) 2 units of: 5 vets w/ SB/SS, 2 Terminators, 1 Vanguard veteran.

Then check points and add either the Knight or the Dread.

Orks are a good matchup for Deathwatch, but it's your first game so really just focus on getting the rules down.

Gonna wax cranky for a moment here, so apologies in advance.

Don't learn to play 8th with a Knight in your army. Superheavies skew games to a very serious degree, especially at the point level you're playing at. It's also not a very sporting move IMO.

Stick with the Dread for now (Twin-las VenDreads are fantastic units), and save the Knight for when you're more experienced with 8th, getting into higher point value games, or heading to tourneys.

Is taking a crusader considered bad generally? I was excited to get one because apparently fills a weakness and I actually love the models. Maybe I will do pure deathwatch first.

@creeping dementia

Seems the aggressors are preferred to the inceptors. Assuming I don’t take the crusader won’t they be like half my AT forces? I feel like assault benefit of aggressor is lost on the bolt rifles.

GameDadZ wrote:
Is taking a crusader considered bad generally? I was excited to get one because apparently fills a weakness and I actually love the models. Maybe I will do pure deathwatch first.

From a competitive standpoint? No. It's a brutally efficient model that absolutely can fill the anti-armor role that DW sometimes struggles with.

From a casual play standpoint? In my opinion, yes. Knight-level chassis skew games fiercely.

If you're playing in tournament-level games where everyone is playing cuthroat maximum meta lists, by all means run one. But for friendly LGS play, its bad form to just show up and drop one. If you *really* want to run it, talk to your opponent first, and have a list ready that you can run without it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

GameDadZ wrote:

Seems the aggressors are preferred to the inceptors. Assuming I don’t take the crusader won’t they be like half my AT forces? I feel like assault benefit of aggressor is lost on the bolt rifles.

You should absolutely bring your Inceptors, what he's talking about is including the Aggressors in your Intercessor squads so the whole lot can advance and fire without penalty. Ints obviously run with auto bolt rifles to take advantage of that.

Ah, didn’t realize knights were so OP. I also thought orks were actually one of the top tier armies so thought I might need it. Maybe I’ll forgo it this time around then.

Any general advice for a novice to avoid big noob mistakes? I’m probably gonna run the Intercessors squad with 2 aggressors and 3 inceptors. Seems like it will have great mobility but also become a meaty target. I’m guess that will actually be my deep strike squad in this instance rather than my vets considering I don’t want them to get wiped out before shooting.

Anything on the tactics end to be aware of?