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Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
What are the odds of 5 Heavy Hammer Vanguard killing a Knight? Probably not fantastic but inquiring minds at work want to know

First off, I really think HTHs should be SX3, not X2.

But, math time!

Each attack hits on a 4
Wounds on a 4
Saves on a 6 (assuming no relic defense)
Deals an average of 4.33 damage on an unsaved wound
For...
.90 damage per attack, on average.

Meaning you'd need just over 30 attacks to kill a Dominous on average.

Reverse engineering that...

32 attacks
16 hit
8 wound (2.67 at 6 damage flat)
6.67 unsaved (2.22 at 6 damage flat)
For...
13.32 damage from the 6 flat, 15.58 from the d6 damage, and 28.90 total.

If I was going to put 5 HTH into a squad I would give them some support.

Either a chaplain or watch master for rerolls and chaplain dread would make them Strength 10.

Mission tactics for rerolling 1's to wound and the Malleus Doctrine will make it wound on a 2+ with both 5's and 6's giving 6 damage.

That be being said, I would be more likely to just give one to a lone vanguard in a kill team

I just noticed something that I noted in the YMDC section.

Deathwatch Captains in Terminator armor can be armed with: Combi-bolter, power fist, Grenade launcher, Meltagun. simultaneously.

That's a lot of dakka being thrown out for a guy with a 2+ to hit and the ability to deepstrike.

Would this be useful for anything? Is he a viable unit for suicide deepstrike?

Neither Index nor Codex lets DW take the grenade launcher, did I miss something?

 Chris521 wrote:
If I was going to put 5 HTH into a squad I would give them some support.

Either a chaplain or watch master for rerolls and chaplain dread would make them Strength 10.

Mission tactics for rerolling 1's to wound and the Malleus Doctrine will make it wound on a 2+ with both 5's and 6's giving 6 damage.

That be being said, I would be more likely to just give one to a lone vanguard in a kill team

Rerolls are easy enough to get.

A Chaplain Dread is a LOT trickier to finagle, though. I'll do the math hitting on 4s (rerolling 1s and 2s) and wounding on 3s (rerolling 1s, 5+ is flat 6 damage).

2/3 chance of hitting
7/9 chance of wounding
5/6 chance of unsaved
4.75 average damage
For a total of...

2.05 damage per attack

Or, only 14 attacks needed to kill a Knight Dominous. Very possible, with the new rule and a squad of five VanVets.

Vortenger wrote:
Neither Index nor Codex lets DW take the grenade launcher, did I miss something?

Index says to use the "Captain in Terminator armor" entry on page 12 as a "deathwatch Captain in Terminator armor". That entry specifically states that A Captain in Terminator can have an Aux. Grenade Launcher as long as he has a power fist.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
What are the odds of 5 Heavy Hammer Vanguard killing a Knight? Probably not fantastic but inquiring minds at work want to know

I really want a reason to use my HTHs. I have 2 with JPs and 2 on foot. I love the concept but they really need to drop the points. Random damage, no ability to take a SS, it should be no more than 20pts if a regular TH is 16.

 cuda1179 wrote:

Vortenger wrote:
Neither Index nor Codex lets DW take the grenade launcher, did I miss something?

Index says to use the "Captain in Terminator armor" entry on page 12 as a "deathwatch Captain in Terminator armor". That entry specifically states that A Captain in Terminator can have an Aux. Grenade Launcher as long as he has a power fist.

Which the Power Fist with the Melta Gun counts as.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

 cuda1179 wrote:

Vortenger wrote:
Neither Index nor Codex lets DW take the grenade launcher, did I miss something?

Index says to use the "Captain in Terminator armor" entry on page 12 as a "deathwatch Captain in Terminator armor". That entry specifically states that A Captain in Terminator can have an Aux. Grenade Launcher as long as he has a power fist.

Which the Power Fist with the Melta Gun counts as.

No, it doesn't. THe Grenade launcher and the meltagun are two separate things, they just have the same prerequisite, the power fist.

 cuda1179 wrote:


Index says to use the "Captain in Terminator armor" entry on page 12 as a "deathwatch Captain in Terminator armor". That entry specifically states that A Captain in Terminator can have an Aux. Grenade Launcher as long as he has a power fist.

Right, but the same page that grants access to the termie captain in the Index also has a sidebar stating it can't alter any equipment except it's sword for a relic blade. Index only wargear is strictly prohibited for DW with that caveat.

How did you get around that sidebar to equip the grenade launcher? If you cqan give rules support, I'll go glue mine on right now.

Vortenger wrote:

 cuda1179 wrote:


Index says to use the "Captain in Terminator armor" entry on page 12 as a "deathwatch Captain in Terminator armor". That entry specifically states that A Captain in Terminator can have an Aux. Grenade Launcher as long as he has a power fist.

Right, but the same page that grants access to the termie captain in the Index also has a sidebar stating it can't alter any equipment except it's sword for a relic blade. Index only wargear is strictly prohibited for DW with that caveat.

How did you get around that sidebar to equip the grenade launcher? If you cqan give rules support, I'll go glue mine on right now.

Dang blurb Oh well, would have been a cool looking model.

Index to Codex to other Codex is always a stumbling block for Deathwatch this edition it seems. And barring a miracle, its about to get significantly worth with C:SM 2.0.

Sooooo yeah stalker bolt rifles are badass now! S4 -2 2dmg with either kraken or vengeance rds will be sweet.

Their big niche will be popping bikes. Weight of fire still leans in favor of Bolt Rifles / storm bolters against most everything else. I want to see what happens to the Assault/Heavy hellblaster variants. If the latter gets spicy, a Stalker/hellblaster/Aggresor squad could be interesting


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Random thought:

Flat damage 3 MC Stalkers? 4 with the bane bolts?

Intriguing. Especially if that leaked datasheet with Intercessor Sergeants being able to take MC Stalkers turns out to be true.

Did they say if the Stalker Bolt Rifle is getting a points bump? The Veterans Stalker Bolter looks pretty dreadful next to it now.

Feel like us and C:SM just flip flopped and they have all the crazy toys now lol.

It's looking more and more like removing bolter discipline from SIA was completely pointless. The new Marine Codex is filled with new rules that increase fire power while taking advantage of bolter discipline. Given that taking it away hurt units like bikes and terminators more than it did kill teams, we should try to push for getting it back.

 Eldarain wrote:

Feel like us and C:SM just flip flopped and they have all the crazy toys now lol.

Indeed.

in 1week will get a pdf. Im hoping add in new Primaris marines, and combine old marines, we still have the height advantage so in between old and new. Main thing I want is we get to keep new primaris and retain versatility of current veterans. we have an awesome kit we need to keep it (and I have a massive DW army).\\


looked at all new Sm stuff... is good but waiting for DW stuff


What I hope is we get a centurion able to be part of a veteren squad or squad alone, just cause I have done cool conversions

New units blah blah blah

So looking at the datasheet changes from C:SM 2.0, Intercessors and Rievers look like big winners. ABRs going to Assault 3 makes them really tempting with SIA. Sarges with 4 thunderhammer attacks apiece on the charge aint bad either.

Rievers dropping down to be points equivalent to Intercessors is spicy too. Sprinkle a few in and suddenly we've got Night Lords CTs all across the Fortis teams.

Rumor that Doctrines are tied to angels of death, meaning deathwatch and all marine codexes will have doctrines? That would be amazing if true.... it also would disproportionately affect DW. Death frag cannons would have ap4 up close and melt infantry with s6 ap2 in 8 inches. You could literally drop 6 in two squads and do them annihilate a full primaries squad in one salvo even in cover.

If (and its a big if) Doctrines come across, they potentially wont affect SIA as there's an explicit exclusion that Doctrine AP doesnt stack.

So what about hellfire rounds and where is this rule? Would still be nice on leviathan if its the case anyways. Ap3 auto cannon wounding primaries on 2.

Its part of the Doctrine rule. It's also entirely possible that SIA may get an exception, or some other workaround when the PDF update is released.

Also basic vets are going down 2 points, think these are big changes for DW.

GameDadZ wrote:
Also basic vets are going down 2 points, think these are big changes for DW.

Source? Or are you just basing that off Sternguard getting cheaper?

So we've got quite a few side-buffs already...

- +1A on the charge for our vets is really legit, and just pushes them over the edge into viability for TH Sarge and Blackshield builds I think
- Stalker bolt rifle is quite nice now but...
- Real winner is our assault bolt rifle. 3 shots with an aggressor along for the ride to allow them to always advance and shoot with no penalty is really big. I and a lot of other DW players have been running 5 assualt intercessors and an aggressor for a while, and this really helps them. As does...
- 3W for aggressors and inceptors. Very nice due to the prevalence of D2 weapons.

We have to wait and see what new models will be available to us, but my gut says all of them, as we currently have all primaris units in our roster. Suppressors, Eliminators and the new walker all look like a great match for us, given our glaring AT problem in mono-faction.

 grouchoben wrote:
So we've got quite a few side-buffs already...

- +1A on the charge for our vets is really legit, and just pushes them over the edge into viability for TH Sarge and Blackshield builds I think
- Stalker bolt rifle is quite nice now but...
- Real winner is our assault bolt rifle. 3 shots with an aggressor along for the ride to allow them to always advance and shoot with no penalty is really big. I and a lot of other DW players have been running 5 assualt intercessors and an aggressor for a while, and this really helps them. As does...
- 3W for aggressors and inceptors. Very nice due to the prevalence of D2 weapons.

We have to wait and see what new models will be available to us, but my gut says all of them, as we currently have all primaris units in our roster. Suppressors, Eliminators and the new walker all look like a great match for us, given our glaring AT problem in mono-faction.

Havent thought about this...a chaff cleaning CC orientated mixed KillTeam might be really nice.

We can also go for Aggressors plus Stalker rifle KillTeams now...

I dont want to get my hopes up, but a cheep and cheerful MSU battalion of ABR Intercessors (with obligatory PF on the sarge) popping out of three impulsors is looking excruciatingly tasty.

I don't think we'll get anything beyond the Shock Assault buff and updates to datasheets/weapons we already have. As they've withheld everything other than the Executioner so far.

Maybe if we switch to a supplement in the future.

I don't think DW are as bad off as people think. Sure, the SM are now powerhouses when it comes to firepower but they didn't get too much of a boon for survivability. DW still hold that ace.
+1 A certainly is going to help in many instances.