DEATHWATCH in 8th

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**Lemondish**

Neophyte2012 wrote:
How do everybody feel on the "anti Xeno" stratagem? I think the DW is bullying some relatively "weaker" Xeno factions, but against strong factions those "tally" Stratagem still not offering enough punch.

Specifically,

Orks are pretty screwd by the DW stratagem, penalty in charge inches for each overwatch casauties taken will really mess up the green tide if they are charging in PKT with Aggressor member.

Necron would likely took a beating for the -1 for RP rolls, but the experience of the Necron part of me just shout out that the Necron units will simply die in one round if they are likely to cause trouble to the opponent so the RP will more often not cone into play. It will be a bonus but Necron armies no longer live and die to the RP any more.

Tau might took a hard beating as the Stratagem simply shrug off all the marker light token for 1CP ! It might really lower the accuracy of the Tau firepower as naturally, only their Commander have high enough BS while everything else have mid level BS only.

Nidz. The stratagem gives a little bonus fighting the Great Devourers. But tbh, sniping Synapse Characters is not as great as it sounds. First, The real creatures that pose serious threat against Marine arimes is either not synapse creature like Exocrine, Hive Guard, Genestealer hordes. Or are those big enough it can already been freely targetted like Flyrant. The only bonus this 2CP stratagem granted is shoot at Nerothropes, or Malanthropes or the overcosted Broodlord. The last one ate seldom seem on the table top in competitive Nidz army, and the former two are tough nuts due to hard to hit and inv saves. Furthermore, now the Synapse range is 24" instead of 12", and the penalty of IB is just a -1 to hit instead of the Nidz eating themselves or forced to go to ground. Soooooo, who cares if getting a Synapse Creature killed???

The anti Eldar one is simply plain trash for its costs of 2CP. 1st, Eldar fly units usually have mid to long range firepower so no need to move into 12" range. 2nd, Eldar has massive trickery to make themselves hard to hit, coupled with the penalty -1 to hit of this stratagem, we are likely hitting on 5s after paying 2CPs.... WTH!!!!!

What do you guys think? Any hidden gems to be discovered?

The Eldar one is great against things like Shining Spears that can cross the table and charge you turn 1. You're basically getting two instances of overwatch shooting. Being able to shoot at things in your opponents turns will go far, in the right circumstances, to making up for the firepower you lose by being an elite army with less bodies.

I think you'll start to see more synapse characters in the new meta now that Tyrants aren't going to number more than 3. The key here is that it's a super easy way to take out those characters without them being the closest model. Situational, sure, but you get that this is the DW, right? Reactive and flexible. Sometimes you may not use this one, which I think is okay.

**RogueApiary**

Anybody but me hyped for deep striking Leviathan Dreadnaughts with dual SCA/grav bombards rerolling 1's to wound and +1 to wound?

**saint_red**

So the codex review from Winters is up and while he covers some stuff that was already previewed by warhammer community, there is some good info in there.

The biggest takeaway for me is that SIA is now only 1pt and that DW Primaris marines are priced the same as in the other SM codices. This brings Intercessors to 19 points vs 18 points for Deathwatch Veterans. With the awesome rules Primaris kill teams get I think they will be the default option for troops going forward.

He also confirmed storm bolters now get SIA (for 2 points) which makes terminators more relevant. Terminators can now be taken in units of 1 now too which is interesting and might have some applications. Maybe invoke the Iron Warriors and spam cyclone missile launcher terminators?

Only 6 relics sadly which doesn't make a lot of sense to me. The storm shield relic could be interesting on a watch captain to protect a gun line of predators or the like.

**Audustum**

saint_red wrote:
So the codex review from Winters is up and while he covers some stuff that was already previewed by warhammer community, there is some good info in there.

The biggest takeaway for me is that SIA is now only 1pt and that DW Primaris marines are priced the same as in the other SM codices. This brings Intercessors to 19 points vs 18 points for Deathwatch Veterans. With the awesome rules Primaris kill teams get I think they will be the default option for troops going forward.

He also confirmed storm bolters now get SIA (for 2 points) which makes terminators more relevant. Terminators can now be taken in units of 1 now too which is interesting and might have some applications. Maybe invoke the Iron Warriors and spam cyclone missile launcher terminators?

Only 6 relics sadly which doesn't make a lot of sense to me. The storm shield relic could be interesting on a watch captain to protect a gun line of predators or the like.

I think Intercessors have Bolt Pistols AND Boltguns. That means they're 20PPM with gear now since you have to pay the SIA tax for each.

**Lemondish**

saint_red wrote:
So the codex review from Winters is up and while he covers some stuff that was already previewed by warhammer community, there is some good info in there.

The biggest takeaway for me is that SIA is now only 1pt and that DW Primaris marines are priced the same as in the other SM codices. This brings Intercessors to 19 points vs 18 points for Deathwatch Veterans. With the awesome rules Primaris kill teams get I think they will be the default option for troops going forward.

He also confirmed storm bolters now get SIA (for 2 points) which makes terminators more relevant. Terminators can now be taken in units of 1 now too which is interesting and might have some applications. Maybe invoke the Iron Warriors and spam cyclone missile launcher terminators?

Only 6 relics sadly which doesn't make a lot of sense to me. The storm shield relic could be interesting on a watch captain to protect a gun line of predators or the like.

I wouldn't be so sure on veterans vs Primaris. Sure, their bolters have better AP, but they don't have the same transport options, weapon choices, and if veterans can still carry stormbolters then they're going to be pretty awesome.

**WindstormSCR**

While intercessors are pretty decent, especially with stalker bolt rifles and hellfire rounds, I think the real shining unit is going to be reivers.

120 points for native deepstrike and SIA on assault 2 guns? Yes please.

Veterans look a LOT better for tailoring to specific jobs, and using the better transport options to get there without costing as many points.

FW entries will still be the Go-to for handling anti-armor work I think, especially with reivers being a no-brainier choice for unlocking elite slot relics. Here I'm expecting stuff like Morris dreads to keep performing well (predator executioner looks tasty as well)

**demontalons**

Can veterans carry storm bolsters? I have 10 storm bolter conversions and if they can take them then I think I’ll use the deathwatch to represent my chapter

**meleti**

demontalons wrote:
Can veterans carry storm bolsters? I have 10 storm bolter conversions and if they can take them then I think I’ll use the deathwatch to represent my chapter

Yes. It's on the equipment list in the index, where you can pick one option from a list of ranged weapons. Per the designer commentary it's legal in the codex even if they leave it out, which I don't expect they did.

Edit: unless you meant Vanguard Vets, who probably can't.

**Slayer-Fan123**

Nah, but Deathwatch Vanguard with dual Bolt Pistols might be neat, if not slightly niche.

**Tibs Ironblood**

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Nah, but Deathwatch Vanguard with dual Bolt Pistols might be neat, if not slightly niche.

Ignore me lol. I saw my mistake.

**Cephalobeard**

I don't see normal Veterans as viable outside of 5-6 man squads of 5 vets with Storm Bolters, maybe a vv, in razorbacks running up the table with a watchmaster.

The price comparison to intercessors is a joke.

**WindstormSCR**

Cephalobeard wrote:
I don't see normal Veterans as viable outside of 5-6 man squads of 5 vets with Storm Bolters, maybe a vv, in razorbacks running up the table with a watchmaster.

The price comparison to intercessors is a joke.

from a competitive standpoint, agreed, especially with aggressors allowing risk-free advances on ABR intercessors.

The best use for veterans now is as the sharp-end delivery system for frag cannons and similar for horde clearing, and considering a 3 frag/2 shield squad is 160+ and will need transport, they start to make a dakka repulsor look appealing for anti-horde instead.

**Slayer-Fan123**

WindstormSCR wrote:
Cephalobeard wrote:
I don't see normal Veterans as viable outside of 5-6 man squads of 5 vets with Storm Bolters, maybe a vv, in razorbacks running up the table with a watchmaster.

The price comparison to intercessors is a joke.

from a competitive standpoint, agreed, especially with aggressors allowing risk-free advances on ABR intercessors.

The best use for veterans now is as the sharp-end delivery system for frag cannons and similar for horde clearing, and considering a 3 frag/2 shield squad is 160+ and will need transport, they start to make a dakka repulsor look appealing for anti-horde instead.

I don't think Shotguns are a terrible idea if they're gotten cheap enough (it should really be identical in price or near) but yeah they're basically a Frag Cannon delivery system outside that.

**Lemondish**

Cephalobeard wrote:
I don't see normal Veterans as viable outside of 5-6 man squads of 5 vets with Storm Bolters, maybe a vv, in razorbacks running up the table with a watchmaster.

The price comparison to intercessors is a joke.

5 vets, either full melee or close range shooty with frag cannons in a squad with 4 bikes and a VV. Combat squad them, the bikes and VV can move fast, drop a teleport homer for the other squad if you want, or just do their thing. The bikes with VV can charge, disengage, shoot, and charge back in.

**Cephalobeard**

I'm just inebriated enough to think that that combat squad idea is actually really cool. I don't know if I'd call it good, but I think it's super cool.

**RogueApiary**

WindstormSCR wrote:
Cephalobeard wrote:
I don't see normal Veterans as viable outside of 5-6 man squads of 5 vets with Storm Bolters, maybe a vv, in razorbacks running up the table with a watchmaster.

The price comparison to intercessors is a joke.

from a competitive standpoint, agreed, especially with aggressors allowing risk-free advances on ABR intercessors.

The best use for veterans now is as the sharp-end delivery system for frag cannons and similar for horde clearing, and considering a 3 frag/2 shield squad is 160+ and will need transport, they start to make a dakka repulsor look appealing for anti-horde instead.

My plan is to go all-in with a Corvus filled with 4x FC, 4x Bolter/SS, 2x Term with SB/PS. 581 points assuming the points I've heard leaked is correct but it should be a pretty sticky pair of units that combined with a Guard army could make for a really thorny problem to deal with.

My go-to for chaff clearing in Index was 6 aggressors teleporting onto a watch captain with jump pack and the relic. I think it might still have play but I'll need to start the WC on the board, advance him up to get within 18" of the chaff line and then use the relic on T1. T2, I can drop other things into the hole they've made.

Anybody have any opinions on the best Leviathan loadout is now that we can deep strike them? Dual Grav sounds awesome, but the low number of shots combined with the movement penalty is hurting the math. Storm cannon array doesnt really need to be DS'd in though it is nice to keep it off the board. Cyclonic meltas are looking pretty tasty as you can now drop them into their 18" firing range, putting out 4D3 STR 9 AP -4 D6D shots with +1 to wound and rerolling 1's to wound assuming you burn the strat/mission tactic. If, by some miracle, the dread survives the response without getting bracketed, it can then either be hitting on 2's or move into melta bonus range.

**Traceoftoxin**

DW gained combat squad? They've never had it before

**WindstormSCR**

If anyone is familiar enough with github there is a branch up for the battlescribe work. nothing is final etc, etc but given DW's complexity it's handy for rethinking lists.

My own thoughts so far after a few hours of tinkering:

its very easy to go waaay overboard with the primaris KT just like it is/was with vets. the basic principle of boys before toys and not putting all your eggs in one basket still applies.

Primaris still have a transport issue. The biggest ways around that are the teleport stratagem (which afaik hasn't been full-text leaked yet) and Reivers innate DS.

While intercessor kill-teams and hellblasters are cool, the options FW affords often do more for cheaper, case in point the quadlas mortis dreadnought, which costs all of a ven dread + $9 arm from FW including shipping, and you can field two of them for the price of a 5/5 int/HB Fortis KT.

Transports are pretty much required for vets to work, and should be considered as part of the unit price when drawing comparisons, even at the slightly cheaper base cost.

overall I'd expect deathwatch meta-lists to look something like this:

AM battaltion (you know what to expect here)
DW battalion:
-primaris watch cap
-primaris lib
-Intercessors x3
-Mortis x2
DW vanguard
????
Reivers x3

then filling out the remaining 600ish points with whatever floats your fancy

**Tibs Ironblood**

According to one review they said the reiver bolt carbine was bumped to 4 points. I hope they were wrong because that would just be stupid to pay. Everything going from their base cost to 1 higher is acceptable (Arguably not bolt pistols, but grumble grumble) but to go from 0 to 4 is just stupid.

**Traceoftoxin**

200 pt AM CP battery battalion

1800 pt DW battalion
Watch master
Cap with JP

3x10 vets with SB
3x Primaris kill teams

Fill rest with asscan razorbacks/bikes/levi dreads, etc.

Deep strike the 10 man squads as assassin squads, can drop with cap if you need them remotely. Rest castles up and uses the cheap chap master rerolls.

**Crimson**

I am not sure the lack of transports is such a huge issue for DW Primaris. Even with their standard guns they have 36 range (18 rapid) with krakens, so they can move and fire those until they're on range for hellfires.

**fr3ddy**

Deathwatch is a very heavy CP usage army it seems. With the strategem that allows 1-3 units deep strike, along with all the mission tactics.

I am planning to deep strike a leviathan down range along with a huge blob of Primaris kill team armed with assault bolters for gunning and running and a captain with jump pack for re-rolls.

Heading to a ITC tourney the week after codex release, will report how it goes.

**Primark G**

It’s too early to say they are CP hungry.

**Slayer-Fan123**

Primark G wrote:
It’s too early to say they are CP hungry.

Most of the Strategems you would want to use are 2CP. I'm gonna do a Battalion of the Vanilla codex and a Battalion for Deathwatch for a cool 13CP. Now I just need to wait for the Deathwatch to drop.

**RogueApiary**

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Primark G wrote:
It’s too early to say they are CP hungry.

Most of the Strategems you would want to use are 2CP. I'm gonna do a Battalion of the Vanilla codex and a Battalion for Deathwatch for a cool 13CP. Now I just need to wait for the Deathwatch to drop.

My plan is double battaion AM with battalion of DW. 2 CP strat for +1 to wound on multiple target types in multiple phases + up to 3CP needed for deep striking means I'll probably still go dry by turn 3.

I'll ask again though, what do folks think of Cyclonic Melta Lances now that they can drop into range and easily get into melta bonus range the following turn? 4D3 STR 9 AP-4 D6D shots that will likely be rerolling 1's to hit, 1's to wound, and getting +1 to wound should pretty much one-shot anything short of a Knight.

**WindstormSCR**

RogueApiary wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Primark G wrote:
It’s too early to say they are CP hungry.

Most of the Strategems you would want to use are 2CP. I'm gonna do a Battalion of the Vanilla codex and a Battalion for Deathwatch for a cool 13CP. Now I just need to wait for the Deathwatch to drop.

My plan is double battaion AM with battalion of DW. 2 CP strat for +1 to wound on multiple target types in multiple phases + up to 3CP needed for deep striking means I'll probably still go dry by turn 3.

I'll ask again though, what do folks think of Cyclonic Melta Lances now that they can drop into range and easily get into melta bonus range the following turn? 4D3 STR 9 AP-4 D6D shots that will likely be rerolling 1's to hit, 1's to wound, and getting +1 to wound should pretty much one-shot anything short of a Knight.

tbh I'd go lance/claw, purely because you'll already be within charge range, which would be just over a 60% chance if you assume using a CP to reroll the lowest die.

After further thoughts on effective anti-tank, the more I consider it the more I think dreadnoughts are the way forward for that in mono-deathwatch armies. Leviathans are fun, but given the cost and effects I'd argue for the Hellfire Carronade Deredeo as the single most cost-effective anti-tank weapon in the arsenal, given the ballistic skill, static 5-shot 8/-3/3 that is affected by mission tactics, the +1 to wound stratagems, and relative durability compared to other possible platforms.

**RogueApiary**

WindstormSCR wrote:
RogueApiary wrote:
Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
Primark G wrote:
It’s too early to say they are CP hungry.

Most of the Strategems you would want to use are 2CP. I'm gonna do a Battalion of the Vanilla codex and a Battalion for Deathwatch for a cool 13CP. Now I just need to wait for the Deathwatch to drop.

My plan is double battaion AM with battalion of DW. 2 CP strat for +1 to wound on multiple target types in multiple phases + up to 3CP needed for deep striking means I'll probably still go dry by turn 3.

I'll ask again though, what do folks think of Cyclonic Melta Lances now that they can drop into range and easily get into melta bonus range the following turn? 4D3 STR 9 AP-4 D6D shots that will likely be rerolling 1's to hit, 1's to wound, and getting +1 to wound should pretty much one-shot anything short of a Knight.

tbh I'd go lance/claw, purely because you'll already be within charge range, which would be just over a 60% chance if you assume using a CP to reroll the lowest die.

After further thoughts on effective anti-tank, the more I consider it the more I think dreadnoughts are the way forward for that in mono-deathwatch armies. Leviathans are fun, but given the cost and effects I'd argue for the Hellfire Carronade Deredeo as the single most cost-effective anti-tank weapon in the arsenal, given the ballistic skill, static 5-shot 8/-3/3 that is affected by mission tactics, the +1 to wound stratagems, and relative durability compared to other possible platforms.

Not sure I want to mix weapons on the Leviathan. Getting 4D3 vs. 2D3 Cyclonic melta shots makes the most of the +1 to wound stratagem. I think double claw could be a possibility though.

I'm liking your Deredeo idea as it's also easier to fill an Elites slot than a Heavy Support in Deathwatch to satisfy the Relic requirement. The Atomantic Pavaise also gives the Primaris kill teams some much needed survivability.

I almost want to run both at the same time, though having a quarter of your points on two models is kind of a bad place to be at when youre already struggling to get bodies on the field.

**saint_red**

The Deredeo is ok but the plasma cannonade is too short ranged to be properly effective. I've played games against it and could just ignore it for the most part.

The Levi is a beast and is pretty good in all configurations but I'd recommend the grav-flux bombard over the melta lance. It has better damage against almost all profiles but is also awesome against hordes or infantry units. Now that DW have Hellblasters filling the HS slot isn't that big a deal. The Land Raider Prometheus could also be an option for the -1CP on all the tasty +1 would stratagems.

**RogueApiary**

saint_red wrote:
The Deredeo is ok but the plasma cannonade is too short ranged to be properly effective. I've played games against it and could just ignore it for the most part.

The Levi is a beast and is pretty good in all configurations but I'd recommend the grav-flux bombard over the melta lance. It has better damage against almost all profiles but is also awesome against hordes or infantry units. Now that DW have Hellblasters filling the HS slot isn't that big a deal. The Land Raider Prometheus could also be an option for the -1CP on all the tasty +1 would stratagems.

I looked at the grav bombards first, but I disregarded them because the 2D3 shots, despite the higher average damage from the guaranteed 5D, isn't enough to make up for the 4D3 melta shots. The extra benefits vs hordes is nice, but nobody rocks Conscripts much any more and even infantry squads are usually 9 models for ITC purposes, so you'll only get 4D3 shots at them anyway, which is what you'd get with the dual meltas. It's only 10 models or above where the grav bombards pull ahead for horde work. It's also arguable if you really even need the anti horde option given the availability of bikes/sb vets/frag cannons/aggressors.

Isn't a Prometheus + HQ inside like 450 points? Seems like a lot to not be affecting the main battlefield to save me some CP when you can get 10 CP + refunds and 60 warm bodies for the same number of points. 24 HB shots isn't terrible, but I'm not sure it's enough offense for a quarter of your list.

**Eldarain**

Is there a good source of infantry Storm Bolters?