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 Bloodshade wrote:

 lambsandlions wrote:
Skyweavers can get all 32" and with 6" for fusion I can usually shoot turn one. Jet bikes also get that 32" with wotp but what I have been enjoying is turn 1 blitz solitaire and wotp averages out to be 38" plus a charge, perfect for tying up units or going after characters. 10 s5 ap-2 hits is also nice. Not much can hide from that range of movement.

Skyweavers can't have fusions, though. Good for charging what you want given that humungous 32" movement, but you can't do the trick on Starweavers neither (thank FAQs).

I suppose he meant Starweavers full of fusion players.
WotP doesn't work on Straweavers, but twilight pathway does.

Yeah, sorry I meant starweavers full of fusion players. Why do all our units need to sound so similar?

If you get your shadowseer out 3" from the front of the hull, move her 8" and caste twilight pathways 3" from the back of the hull, you can get the starweavers full movement before you move again.

Welp looks like the FAQ cleared up some of the debates. GOOD

Is there anything stopping a unit soulbursting to move back into a transport? Taking a move action bringing you back within 3" off a transport seems to let the unit just embark. Doesn't say anything about being the move phase.
Could open up a lot of options in the wave serpent army, where a unit can jump out, unleash a volley to kill a unit and then retreat back into the safety of the wave serpent.

Wyldcarde wrote:
Is there anything stopping a unit soulbursting to move back into a transport? Taking a move action bringing you back within 3" off a transport seems to let the unit just embark. Doesn't say anything about being the move phase.
Could open up a lot of options in the wave serpent army, where a unit can jump out, unleash a volley to kill a unit and then retreat back into the safety of the wave serpent.

The only restriction would be if the unit disembarked that turn, as seen in the top paragraph of the transports rules section.

GW had a second commentary that even said you could embark on a fallback move. So I do not see why you would not be able to do it for SfD. So an example.. they disembark on your turn and dakka. Then on your opponents turn your opponent blow somethign triggering SfD.. you could then take a move action / fall back and hop inside of the transport again.

Ah ok. Missed that bit. Makes it not as good but still useful. One unit nearby dies the other can fall back to safety.

I tried out some Ynnari, leaving my Harlequins aside for this time.
I went double Outrider detachment, the first one with Yvraine, Solitaire, 5 Scourges full dark lances, 5 Spears Exarch, 4 Windriders full shuricannon, 1+1+1 Flocks and 5 Reapers. The second one had Yncarne, 10+10 Hellions, 8 Spiders, 1+1+1 Flocks and 5 Reapers.
My opponent had AM with a bunch of stuff, most notably 100 conscripts, kommisar, 2 leman including pask, 20 halflings, 20 scions, 20 riders and some taurox and weapons squads.
He managed to roll-off good and to get first turn, so I hid where i could, trying to give him targets that if destroyed spawned the Yncarne where he might not have wanted him to be.
Unfortunately I lost a lot of guys but not whole units, so no Yncarne. I got him with DS scourges breaking a taurox, soulbursting and getting another one pretty much trashed.
I threw at my opponent's units even my home furnishings before charging, I got some free shooting from overwatch and slowly managed to kill those conscripts that blocke like triple their points. So not a good trade.
I had to hide Yvraine and the Solitaire all game due to those delightful halflings. He shooted a lot but every time he fired he gave me basically a useless unit, in the sense that the unit was not dead (thus allowing me to soulburst) but pretty much useless nonetheless.
I lost the game, unfortunately, but not as badly as I thought. I just had the feeling that his points were better spent than mine, his cheap units did as much work as my (not cheap) units. More about this later.

Props
Yncarne: My. F. God. That thing trashed pask in a single CC phase after going basically untouched through his lines. I rolled above average, but still... basically captured his attention alone (also because the rest of my army wasn't opposing that much)
Razorwings: the only SB i got from my units was from them suiciding into enemy stuff. For 7 points each... thanks guys.
Hellions: I've seen worse. Good AI shooting, nice in CC, could stay in the list.

Cons
Spears: Just nope. Too fragile, one or two casualties and they're trash. Maybe vs marines, but they still cost too much, we are fine vs marines I think, it's vs hordes that we struggle.
Reapers: ok, it wasn't their fight, hordes and super tanky vehicles are not their preys. But overall killed a lot of useless models.
Yvraine and Solitaire: couldn't move them at all. Ok, that wasn't their fault but those halflings' merit. The Solitaire ended up killing that Kommisar, but should've been able to do so two turns before.

So, the full elite approach has failed me. I see more fit an MSU-ish approach, keeping cheap, useful units like hellions. So that if the opponent shoots, something HAS to die, he cannot simply cripple it and either make is useless or die in the morale phase (where we don't get SB).

Also, the edition and AM seemed to not be that much balanced, a thing also noticed by my opponent.
GW may have simplified too much the game. There're lot fo decisions to make, yes, but most of them are forced if you think carefully.
For now the best entertainment that I had was with Harlequins, they require a lot of skill even to switch from loose badly to loose honourably.
But still... meh.

I have found shining spears to be amazing in ynnari.
They are target number 1 but with their 4+ inv save and 2 wounds they can take some killing. How many did you run? I run at least 6 so even a couple of kills you still pack a punch.

I haven't really seen ratling sniper stats but feel like apart from a few niche cases the snipers aren't really a threat to characters. Both of yours had 4+ invuls so they are going to shrug off half the normal wounds. The mortal wounds can cause issues (assuming they have the ability) and with 20 of them there is the chance of so above average rolls, but I feel like removing the 2 characters from the game from the sounds of things meant that the snipers effectively "killed" both characters turn 1.
Especially the solitaire, he should have taken one round of shooting max. Then he should be in combat if need be.

Wyldcarde wrote:
I have found shining spears to be amazing in ynnari.
They are target number 1 but with their 4+ inv save and 2 wounds they can take some killing. How many did you run? I run at least 6 so even a couple of kills you still pack a punch.

I haven't really seen ratling sniper stats but feel like apart from a few niche cases the snipers aren't really a threat to characters. Both of yours had 4+ invuls so they are going to shrug off half the normal wounds. The mortal wounds can cause issues (assuming they have the ability) and with 20 of them there is the chance of so above average rolls, but I feel like removing the 2 characters from the game from the sounds of things meant that the snipers effectively "killed" both characters turn 1.
Especially the solitaire, he should have taken one round of shooting max. Then he should be in combat if need be.

20 Ratlings expect to kill the Solitaire in one turn. They shoot like 400 points of Rangers. Killing them is a priority and the possibility of coming up against a list like this is probably why you want transports.

Dionysodorus wrote:

20 Ratlings expect to kill the Solitaire in one turn.

Solitaires are trash though, why would you care about what kills them?

If you wanted to say X Ratlings kill a Farseer, Space Marine Captain, Tau Comamnder, or anything that's actually useful in 8th edition, try doing that.

Wyldcarde wrote:
I have found shining spears to be amazing in ynnari.
They are target number 1 but with their 4+ inv save and 2 wounds they can take some killing. How many did you run? I run at least 6 so even a couple of kills you still pack a punch.

I haven't really seen ratling sniper stats but feel like apart from a few niche cases the snipers aren't really a threat to characters. Both of yours had 4+ invuls so they are going to shrug off half the normal wounds. The mortal wounds can cause issues (assuming they have the ability) and with 20 of them there is the chance of so above average rolls, but I feel like removing the 2 characters from the game from the sounds of things meant that the snipers effectively "killed" both characters turn 1.
Especially the solitaire, he should have taken one round of shooting max. Then he should be in combat if need be.

I ran 5, as I wrote. And of course they can hit hard.
But... 2W and 4++ are not enough when facing a great number of shots. It's saturation fire, always worked like that. And the main problem is: Spears (or any unit like that) can take one casualty and you can still do stuff, but take two and the unit is basically useless. My opponent is a good player (far better than me, I usually get trashed when I play vs him, I learn a lot and sometimes manage to get a well-earned victory) and he immediately recognised the weakness of my list and exploited that.
We had a talk after the match where he explained that he simply had to cripple my units lowering any value they had AND they could get with Soulburst. We ended up concluding that a MSU approach is more fit if you want to take advantage of the Soulburst, so that if something is shot at, it dies and provides a low value but trustable soulburst.

20 halfling snipers are far from useless. He threatened Yvraine to stay hidden and in general they are a menace to any <10W character you think is protected by the army.



And for those wondering... the solitaire was my main weapon vs the Kommissar, delaying his kill for three turns bought him enough time to block my army. We also discussed this point after the game.
So not that trash if you know what he can do and how to use him, mmh?

Yes good points on the spears. I'm not saying that they are indestructible. If your opponent shoots his army at them they will die. Maybe the issue was with the rest of your army? In that the shining spears are a clear number 1 threat. Whereas you throw in a larger unit of reapers, a hemlock, some wave serpents full of fire dragons , a nightspinner or warp spiders etc etc, the shining spears aren't necessarily the clear cut first choice. Plus backed up with conceal or even fortune they become a lot harder to kill. Though that means you have first turn which then is not as much of a problem.

But yes sounds like your opponent handled ynnari well. By wittling down units rather than finishing them off. The fact that enemy units dying triggers soulburst though (and to a lesser extent word of the Phoenix) doesn't automatically lean towards msu for ynnari. Being able to hit with a strike that you can guarantee will destroy an enemy unit is just as important. So a full squad of fire dragons out of a wave serpent is a perfect example. As is the afformentioned shining spears into a vehicle (providing they haven't been crippled). These things can reliably kill a unit from close range to guarantee they then soulburst to get the bonus action. It is also why I think a farseer or eldrad is pretty much first pick for ynnari. To gain access to doom to guarantee that main unit you need dead dies, and putting mobile hard hitting pieces nearby to benefit from soulburst.

But it has proven to be a balancing act in list construction for ynnari.

You're right for sure, my army was not optimised at all, as the whole thing was a test to see what was good enough and what wasn't. I only put 5 spear because I already tested them in a full jetbike army, and I wanted to focus on other units. FYI in previous tests spears did very good (probably because I faced Chaos Daemons that have very few shooting).

That said, there are a true bunch of options available, as you mentioned also. I used Eldrad in my first Ynnari game and he plus Yvraine did a lot of work, but the point cost was way too much for "just" two psykers. I thought I needed more units. I'll try him out again in the future for sure, though.
For now, I think I'll stick with double outrider detachment with Yvraine and the Yncarne, spears, hellions and flocks as the only FAs (spamming them a bit) and 2x reapers as HS. I'll try to squeeze in a Hemlock (for the spears also!), some elites (FD or Wraithguards on WS) and give the whole thing another try before switching to an MSU approach.

I'll have to take a few planes for work this week, hopefully next weekend I'll be able to kidnap my opponent for another match before summer vacations.

Yeah fair points. There are definitely army types that spears excel against and some they struggle against.

Has anyone considered using Shadow Spectres in the Ynnari army? Assuming the Ynnari rules apply, these look like a great unit. I've been considering a couple of combinations and would love to get y'alls thoughts on this. The crux of the army looks like this ...

- Eldrad
- Troupe master (in one of the skyweavers)
- warlocks and stuff to go with the wraithguard and shadow spectres

- 2x Skyweavers w/ 6 harlequins w/f pistols and caresses

- 2x 5-man squads of wraithguard accompanied by a warlock for conceal

- 1x 5 man squad of shadow spectre accompanied by a warlock skyrunner for conceal (does this mean -2 to hit?)

-1x Wraithknight with cannons

Just remember that Psychic powers are limited in Matched play.

Yeah shadow spectres are great this edition.
Yes conceal stacks as it is a different ability.
If you are going to run them go a full unit. They will get shot at so you want to be able to take a few casualties.
But with guide on them they kick out a lot of pain. And high movement means they can make good use of soulburst as they can more easily get into the 7" zone.

How do you guys feel about the Skatach Wraithknights? I know they're more points but getting the drop turn 1 and never getting shot before they shoot (well except Tau) is pretty nice, plus I think both the Inferno Lance and the Deahshroud cannon is better than any of the normal WK options.

Not to mention the ability to mix and match the main weapons not just stuck with 2 of the same.
I really like them.

Wyldcarde wrote:
Not to mention the ability to mix and match the main weapons not just stuck with 2 of the same.
I really like them.

Would you do that just to make sure they both can overwatch well?

They're 700 points. You'd have to be playing some oddball game for them to be worth it.

 Bloodshade wrote:
I tried out some Ynnari, leaving my Harlequins aside for this time.
I went double Outrider detachment, the first one with Yvraine, Solitaire, 5 Scourges full dark lances, 5 Spears Exarch, 4 Windriders full shuricannon, 1+1+1 Flocks and 5 Reapers. The second one had Yncarne, 10+10 Hellions, 8 Spiders, 1+1+1 Flocks and 5 Reapers.
My opponent had AM with a bunch of stuff, most notably 100 conscripts, kommisar, 2 leman including pask, 20 halflings, 20 scions, 20 riders and some taurox and weapons squads.
He managed to roll-off good and to get first turn, so I hid where i could, trying to give him targets that if destroyed spawned the Yncarne where he might not have wanted him to be.
Unfortunately I lost a lot of guys but not whole units, so no Yncarne. I got him with DS scourges breaking a taurox, soulbursting and getting another one pretty much trashed.
I threw at my opponent's units even my home furnishings before charging, I got some free shooting from overwatch and slowly managed to kill those conscripts that blocke like triple their points. So not a good trade.
I had to hide Yvraine and the Solitaire all game due to those delightful halflings. He shooted a lot but every time he fired he gave me basically a useless unit, in the sense that the unit was not dead (thus allowing me to soulburst) but pretty much useless nonetheless.
I lost the game, unfortunately, but not as badly as I thought. I just had the feeling that his points were better spent than mine, his cheap units did as much work as my (not cheap) units. More about this later.

Props
Yncarne: My. F. God. That thing trashed pask in a single CC phase after going basically untouched through his lines. I rolled above average, but still... basically captured his attention alone (also because the rest of my army wasn't opposing that much)
Razorwings: the only SB i got from my units was from them suiciding into enemy stuff. For 7 points each... thanks guys.
Hellions: I've seen worse. Good AI shooting, nice in CC, could stay in the list.

Cons
Spears: Just nope. Too fragile, one or two casualties and they're trash. Maybe vs marines, but they still cost too much, we are fine vs marines I think, it's vs hordes that we struggle.
Reapers: ok, it wasn't their fight, hordes and super tanky vehicles are not their preys. But overall killed a lot of useless models.
Yvraine and Solitaire: couldn't move them at all. Ok, that wasn't their fault but those halflings' merit. The Solitaire ended up killing that Kommisar, but should've been able to do so two turns before.

So, the full elite approach has failed me. I see more fit an MSU-ish approach, keeping cheap, useful units like hellions. So that if the opponent shoots, something HAS to die, he cannot simply cripple it and either make is useless or die in the morale phase (where we don't get SB).

Also, the edition and AM seemed to not be that much balanced, a thing also noticed by my opponent.
GW may have simplified too much the game. There're lot fo decisions to make, yes, but most of them are forced if you think carefully.
For now the best entertainment that I had was with Harlequins, they require a lot of skill even to switch from loose badly to loose honourably.
But still... meh.

As it stands, IG is clearly the most powerful army by a comfortable margin. Meanwhile, Edlar has the problem of some units costing waaaay too much. For example, someone is going to need to explain to me why one Eldar Ranger costs as much as 4 Ratlings.

That said, your list seems a bit mismatched. You had nary an ounce of anti-horde in it. The Eldar don't have infantry sweeping elite units/vehicles like some other armies do. However, we do have basic troops that could a lot of dakka on target. I don't know what models you have, given your Drukhari mini's I'll assume you have more of them. I few Raiders flying around loaded with Kabalite warriors would do a little something. Killing his Kommisars are key also. Even if you get into melee, he can fall back and use an order to shoot you anyway. I personally run guardian heavy Ynnari, almost exclusively made of Craftworld units. Guardians with Farseer and Warlock buffs will mow down Conscripts. With Razorwings to screen them and provide reliable Soulburst it would be even better.

 wannabmoy wrote:
Has anyone considered using Shadow Spectres in the Ynnari army?

They are awesome. I can't justify not taking some at the points cost. I field 3 units of 4 ~92pts ea. They make great screening units as they are very tanky in cover (-1 to hit, 2+). I find i use the flamer profile more often than the lance. d6 s5 shots is typically better in every case than 1 s6 shot. Even with the ap considered. TBH.. their flamers should be d3 shots probably.. I even use them against flyers and usually get around 3-4 wounds out of a one squad.

luke1705 wrote:How do you guys feel about the Skatach Wraithknights? I know they're more points but getting the drop turn 1 and never getting shot before they shoot (well except Tau) is pretty nice, plus I think both the Inferno Lance and the Deahshroud cannon is better than any of the normal WK options.

I am unsure if you play ITC or not, but I believe there is going to be a ban on PL31+ units. I think the Skatach is 32?

I assume you are talking about shadow spectres. That's good points regarding the smaller units. Tho I do feel like the Full squad benefits from the psychic support a lot more (which they want for their guns) in that it's better guiding a unit of 10 and word of the Phoenix them. Tho 10 is a big ol target for the enemy whereas 3x4 would be a lot harder to neutralise.

Also, with their lance gun it's not just 1 Str 6 shot. It's up to 3. With guide or even ancestors grace that's usually 2 or 3 reliably.

Wyldcarde wrote:
I assume you are talking about shadow spectres. That's good points regarding the smaller units. Tho I do feel like the Full squad benefits from the psychic support a lot more (which they want for their guns) in that it's better guiding a unit of 10 and word of the Phoenix them. Tho 10 is a big ol target for the enemy whereas 3x4 would be a lot harder to neutralise.

Also, with their lance gun it's not just 1 Str 6 shot. It's up to 3. With guide or even ancestors grace that's usually 2 or 3 reliably.

You are correct its not 1 shot... Typically I get about 5-6 hits i find.. I did not do the math if that is average or not. But averagely for 4d6 flamers.. you are getting 14 hits. s5 and s6 wound <=T4 on 3s and T7 on 5s. Its that mid ground where maybe you would consider that difference. But i find the more dice you have the better it usually is.

^ I do use the lance tho. Some targets are just to far away! Or if you really want a few models to go away (-3 AP).

All around, spectres are super good, because they can flex to the situation. Use them!

Yeah. The ap -3 definitely balances out the fire modes. And the extra range.

The flamer is a great option tho. And also as charge defence.
Being -1 (or 2 with conceal) to hit at range and having to weather d6 auto hits per spectre to charge is a nasty choice to make.

BrainCandy wrote:
As it stands, IG is clearly the most powerful army by a comfortable margin. Meanwhile, Edlar has the problem of some units costing waaaay too much. For example, someone is going to need to explain to me why one Eldar Ranger costs as much as 4 Ratlings.

That said, your list seems a bit mismatched. You had nary an ounce of anti-horde in it. The Eldar don't have infantry sweeping elite units/vehicles like some other armies do. However, we do have basic troops that could a lot of dakka on target. I don't know what models you have, given your Drukhari mini's I'll assume you have more of them. I few Raiders flying around loaded with Kabalite warriors would do a little something. Killing his Kommisars are key also. Even if you get into melee, he can fall back and use an order to shoot you anyway. I personally run guardian heavy Ynnari, almost exclusively made of Craftworld units. Guardians with Farseer and Warlock buffs will mow down Conscripts. With Razorwings to screen them and provide reliable Soulburst it would be even better.

The army was a test for multiple ideas I had about the army, things that I wanted responses from and things I pretty much knew they suck but wanted confirmation.
Obviously, the army looks like a joke compared to my opponent's. He's not even an AM player, he borrowed an army from a friend and he just wanted to use it to learn how to play against it when he'll face AM in tournaments. We both agreed that AM is far from balanced right now.

Overall I'm not a DE player, I just proxed the hellions with harlequin players to test them out. I can prox venoms with starweavers, but for now I'm still in the "try stuff out" phase. The least drukhari I use, the happiest I am

As said I'll try out the whole thing again this weekend with some changes (back to more spears, hemlock, WS+FD and if I can find a FW manual I'd die to try spectres as well, it's time since I think they're an amazing Ynnari unit).
I'll let you guys know, hopefully dodging AM this time.

Has anyone had success running a slightly larger group of Spectres with a Warlock Skyrunner for the added -1 to hit? Seems to me having a pretty durable unit (-2 to hit with 3+ save) that can dish out some punishment to hordes, MEQ and light vehicles could be really effective.

Also, anyone have success with the Solitaire? I've been thinking of adding him to tie up Devastator or heavy weapon infantry/heavy infantry units.

 wannabmoy wrote:
Has anyone had success running a slightly larger group of Spectres with a Warlock Skyrunner for the added -1 to hit? Seems to me having a pretty durable unit (-2 to hit with 3+ save) that can dish out some punishment to hordes, MEQ and light vehicles could be really effective.

Two factors to keep in mind. Points you are dedicating to one source. And second, target aggro. You have me curious though and I am going to try this on my next game. o7

A squad of 5 is only 115 points i think? which is not that bad. Even a full squad of 10 isn't all that expensive and is a melee armies nightmare (10d6 auto hits on overwatch). I have been using my hemlocks for the occasional conceal.. but a warlock has more potential.

I will do this on Thursday and post some feedback.

 wannabmoy wrote:
Also, anyone have success with the Solitaire? I've been thinking of adding him to tie up Devastator or heavy weapon infantry/heavy infantry units.

I have run him a couple times. He is not the beast he once was. But fill essentially the same roll. You charge him into units already engaged so he doesnt suffer overwatch. He kills ~2-3 MEQ if you have good rolls.. which doesnt do anything alone, but does do well if another squad was there doing about the same. now you made morale useful. Better yet is attacking light vehicles. T5-T6... like he chews up Druhkari. kiss at d3D is awesome.

 Grizzyzz wrote:

 wannabmoy wrote:
Has anyone had success running a slightly larger group of Spectres with a Warlock Skyrunner for the added -1 to hit? Seems to me having a pretty durable unit (-2 to hit with 3+ save) that can dish out some punishment to hordes, MEQ and light vehicles could be really effective.

Two factors to keep in mind. Points you are dedicating to one source. And second, target aggro. You have me curious though and I am going to try this on my next game. o7

A squad of 5 is only 115 points i think? which is not that bad. Even a full squad of 10 isn't all that expensive and is a melee armies nightmare (10d6 auto hits on overwatch). I have been using my hemlocks for the occasional conceal.. but a warlock has more potential.

I will do this on Thursday and post some feedback.

 wannabmoy wrote:
Also, anyone have success with the Solitaire? I've been thinking of adding him to tie up Devastator or heavy weapon infantry/heavy infantry units.

I have run him a couple times. He is not the beast he once was. But fill essentially the same roll. You charge him into units already engaged so he doesnt suffer overwatch. He kills ~2-3 MEQ if you have good rolls.. which doesnt do anything alone, but does do well if another squad was there doing about the same. now you made morale useful. Better yet is attacking light vehicles. T5-T6... like he chews up Druhkari. kiss at d3D is awesome.

Thanks I'm really excited to hear the feedback! I've been messing around with what i'll call a ghost-clown ynnari army (wraith, clowns and shadow spectre) and really love the synergy between d-scythes and the spectres. I've been contemplating running the larger squad of spectres with the lock to add to the target aggro and they're pretty durable and hard to kill with the -2 to hit and 3+ save. Give them cover as well and now we're talking. They're also pretty reasonable in terms of price and very versatile. They're quick and can grab objectives, can kill light vehicles, MEQ and hordes.

At this point, I'm debating whether to take a single solitaire or a squad of 5 SS. Leaning more towards the spectres at this point for overall utility.