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If GW is totally *not* replacing the SM line with the Primaris line... I'd say they are doing it well with all these minis.

I have a HUGE amount of SM/BA, and haven't seen anything new that I don't like.

Also, no one is confused by the Aggressors guns being belt fed and having ammo drums?

 Mr Morden wrote:

If its powercreep - how is that a good thing. More new stuff is fine - but why does it have to be free?

It is not free! The marines have point costs.

 Flood wrote:
Less concerned about the fact that the first codex has additional stuff (obviously they would), since they are hammering out dexes at 2 a month in the next few months.

More concerned at the number of new new stratagems, relics, traits. Not to mention psychic powers and what have you. This way lies bloat and the same problems 40k always has.

A short d3 or d6 table for traits/powers/stratagems/relics is all that's needed IMO. Guess we'll see how long it takes for the balance to tip the cart again.

Back in 3rd, there was a significant gap between armies that had their codex, and those still playing out of the book. The release schedule was closer to every other month, which meant waiting for yours to show up could be rough. I suspect that the same thing will happen here, but hopefully with the aggressive 2/mo pace we can get through the rough translation period quickly. I’d rather the full codexes be balanced adjacent each other then the hold-you-over rules.

I’m a little worried about the proliferation of stratagems. Hopefully there is some restriction, like "pick 3 to use for your army” If it ends up where you can spend CP for any of 25+ different things, I think that way lies madness. Although if most of them are very unit specific, such as “fire 3 vindicators together for big bonus, costs 2 CP” then there would be limits of how many you could incorporate into your army anyway.

 Crimson wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

If its powercreep - how is that a good thing. More new stuff is fine - but why does it have to be free?

It is not free! The marines have point costs.

Do you mean that they have changed pts cost from the Indices or they are ovecosted in the indices? If neither is true - its obviously a free upgrade

 Nevelon wrote:

 Flood wrote:
Less concerned about the fact that the first codex has additional stuff (obviously they would), since they are hammering out dexes at 2 a month in the next few months.

More concerned at the number of new new stratagems, relics, traits. Not to mention psychic powers and what have you. This way lies bloat and the same problems 40k always has.

A short d3 or d6 table for traits/powers/stratagems/relics is all that's needed IMO. Guess we'll see how long it takes for the balance to tip the cart again.

Back in 3rd, there was a significant gap between armies that had their codex, and those still playing out of the book. The release schedule was closer to every other month, which meant waiting for yours to show up could be rough. I suspect that the same thing will happen here, but hopefully with the aggressive 2/mo pace we can get through the rough translation period quickly. I’d rather the full codexes be balanced adjacent each other then the hold-you-over rules.

I’m a little worried about the proliferation of stratagems. Hopefully there is some restriction, like "pick 3 to use for your army” If it ends up where you can spend CP for any of 25+ different things, I think that way lies madness. Although if most of them are very unit specific, such as “fire 3 vindicators together for big bonus, costs 2 CP” then there would be limits of how many you could incorporate into your army anyway.

"as well as general Stratagems, there’s also one for each Chapter, as well as Stratagems focused around specific units"

so, 8 chapters with 1 stratagem a piece that leaves about 18 general stratagems to choose from. I would say that at least half of that 18 (and this is a guess, they gave two examples in the article so guaranteed to be more) will be to modify units, so far we know of three modifications:

1 - turn a captain into a chapter master for 3 command points
2 - give a group of vindicators linebreaker bombardement
3 - tremor shells on a thunderfire cannon

My guess would be that 8-10 at least of those stratagems will be to modify units. What the other stratagems will be I don't know. but I cannot see a massive amount being active use but even so lets be honest, most armies will only have between 6 and 9 command points to spend anyway (guard probably more) and those reaching for more command points will often struggle to maintain a useful army.

Not surprised at the additional army-specific Stratagems. No different to Warlord Traits and Relics really. I was hoping for unique FOCs, but I guess we don't get those.

That Primaris Chaplain is excellent.

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Not surprised at the additional army-specific Stratagems. No different to Warlord Traits and Relics really. I was hoping for unique FOCs, but I guess we don't get those.

Yeah GW said before 8th's release that they weren't going to make army-specific FOCs as everything should be covered by the 12 generic ones already.

 Mr Morden wrote:

Do you mean that they have changed pts cost from the Indices or they are ovecosted in the indices? If neither is true - its obviously a free upgrade

But either of those can easily be true, you're being silly. You could just as easily declare that acts of faith are not included in SoB point cost and are thus free. In any case, it is an utter fantasy that index point costs are some epitome of perfect fairness to begin with.

Regardless, this whining is getting tiresome. GW is literally publishing codices as fast as possible, I really don't understand what else you'd want them to do. Not publish codices at all?

 H.B.M.C. wrote:
Not surprised at the additional army-specific Stratagems. No different to Warlord Traits and Relics really. I was hoping for unique FOCs, but I guess we don't get those.

That Primaris Chaplain is excellent.

I for one am glad there's no unique FOCs - the base set of twelve is plenty flexible enough and 7th edition's myriad formations left a bitter taste behind them.

A bajillion stratagems that you actually have to account for in your list building is much better imho.

Definitely thought those boxes covers were poor photo shops. Guess not!

Hope the Aggressors grow on me like the Dreadnought. And please have helmets for the Reivers...Is Plasma for Inceptors a new thing too?

Echo the sentiments on the Chaplain - Wow!

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

If its powercreep - how is that a good thing. More new stuff is fine - but why does it have to be free?

It is not free! The marines have point costs.

Do you mean that they have changed pts cost from the Indices or they are ovecosted in the indices? If neither is true - its obviously a free upgrade

Firstly marines went down in cost for the indices, expect a rise.

Secondly
Space Marines - 67W 89L
Dark Angels - 31W 41L
Blood Angels - 18W 27L
Deathwatch - 6W 11L
Space Wolves - 34W 25L

Space marines in the current index are weak, he only on in imperium 1 doing well is space wolves... who are he least codex compliant of the armies

 TalonZahn wrote:


Also, no one is confused by the Aggressors guns being belt fed and having ammo drums?

Actually, it looks more like a heat sink to me.

GAdvance wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

If its powercreep - how is that a good thing. More new stuff is fine - but why does it have to be free?

It is not free! The marines have point costs.

Do you mean that they have changed pts cost from the Indices or they are ovecosted in the indices? If neither is true - its obviously a free upgrade

Firstly marines went down in cost for the indices, expect a rise.

Secondly
Space Marines - 67W 89L
Dark Angels - 31W 41L
Blood Angels - 18W 27L
Deathwatch - 6W 11L
Space Wolves - 34W 25L

Space marines in the current index are weak, he only on in imperium 1 doing well is space wolves... who are he least codex compliant of the armies

Which is why 2/3 of the top lists in the first 8th Ed GT were Ultramarines and Blood Angles right? Those poor underpowered space Marines desperately need a buff!

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Group shot.

Plasma Interceptors, Chaplin and Apothecary.

And they even have regular marines too; you just have to squint because they're segregated to the background of the shot since they're totally not replaced.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 TalonZahn wrote:


Also, no one is confused by the Aggressors guns being belt fed and having ammo drums?

Actually, it looks more like a heat sink to me.

They have Autocannons...what's the need for a heatsink on the Aggressors?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 warboss wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
Group shot.

Plasma Interceptors, Chaplin and Apothecary.

And they even have regular marines too; you just have to squint because they're segregated to the background of the shot since they're totally not replaced.

Hah.

You heard it here first guys. The Primaris Librarian and Apothecary are segregated to the background of the shot, they're going to get replaced soon!

Oh, and that Ancient...poor guy. Never stood a chance at being a real Marine.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 TalonZahn wrote:


Also, no one is confused by the Aggressors guns being belt fed and having ammo drums?

Actually, it looks more like a heat sink to me.

They have Autocannons...what's the need for a heatsink on the Aggressors?

Guns get hot when you shoot them.
It might be the image, but the brass didn't look like bullets, but something like this



Are those autocannons? They look fairly small to be autocannons. Maybe it's a mini type of autocannon that has a high rate of fire but is prone to overheating?

 TalonZahn wrote:

Also, no one is confused by the Aggressors guns being belt fed and having ammo drums?

Yeah... WTF is that?

I love the chaplain - very nice.
Most of the other stuff looks fine as well.

Curios about all the warlord traits, stratagems and other stuff.
I hope they will use most of them before the battle while writing your army list to keep the game itself fast and streamlined.


Don`t want to see all the stuff of 7th edition again that made the game so slow.

They look like magazines on many GW weapons.

the_scotsman wrote:

GAdvance wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

If its powercreep - how is that a good thing. More new stuff is fine - but why does it have to be free?

It is not free! The marines have point costs.

Do you mean that they have changed pts cost from the Indices or they are ovecosted in the indices? If neither is true - its obviously a free upgrade

Firstly marines went down in cost for the indices, expect a rise.

Secondly
Space Marines - 67W 89L
Dark Angels - 31W 41L
Blood Angels - 18W 27L
Deathwatch - 6W 11L
Space Wolves - 34W 25L

Space marines in the current index are weak, he only on in imperium 1 doing well is space wolves... who are he least codex compliant of the armies

Which is why 2/3 of the top lists in the first 8th Ed GT were Ultramarines and Blood Angles right? Those poor underpowered space Marines desperately need a buff!

Like i said, Stormraven spam

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 TalonZahn wrote:


Also, no one is confused by the Aggressors guns being belt fed and having ammo drums?

Actually, it looks more like a heat sink to me.

They have Autocannons...what's the need for a heatsink on the Aggressors?

Guns get hot when you shoot them.
It might be the image, but the brass didn't look like bullets, but something like this



Are those autocannons? They look fairly small to be autocannons. Maybe it's a mini type of autocannon that has a high rate of fire but is prone to overheating?

Look at the box that leaked rather than the image GW posted. That image today looks to be the "Boltstorm" gauntlet like the Captain from Dark Imperium.

Yeah... it has a barrel like a lot of bolt weapons, it has a drum, and it has an ammo feed.

Were it a flamer, it'd be piles and fuel tanks, not drums and ammo belts.

 Kanluwen wrote:

You heard it here first guys. The Primaris Librarian and Apothecary are segregated to the background of the shot, they're going to get replaced soon!

Oh, and that Ancient...poor guy. Never stood a chance at being a real Marine.

Of the 20 closest ultramarines in the promo shot for the new codec they've chosen to show off, 19 are primaris and the lone exception is a primarch. Clearly normal marines are sharing equally in the limelight as you are inferring.

 Mr Morden wrote:

 BroodSpawn wrote:
Of course it's power creep when compared to 'here's the basic stuff to let you play the game without having to wait too long', but I wonder if the Chaos codex was released first with similar numbers (base rules for 5+ Legions & Renegades, 20+ stratagems, new psychic powers, etc) would there still be this kind of wailing and gnashing of teeth?

I am looking forward to the next 5 days of Chapter specific articles. Guessing Ultramarines first annoyingly.

Yes there would - at least from me - As I have repeatedly said I have several Marine armies including Ulatras - why is it everyone assumes that saying something is a concern means that they are just wanting their own army to be boosted.

If its powercreep - how is that a good thing. More new stuff is fine - but why does it have to be free?

The only somewhat reassuring element here is that they said we would get 10 codex releases before Christmas. 10 in less then 6 months means they are all already done so hopefully I would wager every codex is actually done and production limitations are the reason why we are getting then somewhat drip fed to us. If I am correct in my assumptions then they really should be balanced better then they were in the past where codexes were written in response to other codexes that were released causing creep.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 TalonZahn wrote:

Also, no one is confused by the Aggressors guns being belt fed and having ammo drums?

GW really needs to send their design crew on a retreat at a gun ranch here in the States so they can actually grasp how firearms work mechanically. I will say they generally do well though. The biggest beef I think I have with their designs in the past were tanks lacking suspension lol.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
Looking at the new kits I noticed something that might be an issue for some folks. The kits don't look very cross compatable for kit bashing so far.

The intercessors and hellblasters do but then again it's literally the gun, but the interceptors, aggressors and reivers all have unique armor marks and bolted on weapons. In the past I could swap parts from every marine kit under the sun, chaos included. Maybe it's a but early but it seems to be more an issue of each new unit is incredibly specific regarding it's armor and gear.

Built from the box folks won't care, I probably just noticed because at the very least I always swap parts from all over if I am not doing complete kitbashes. These seem to be much more restrictive in that regard.

the_scotsman wrote:
Which is why 2/3 of the top lists in the first 8th Ed GT were Ultramarines and Blood Angles right? Those poor underpowered space Marines desperately need a buff!

Those lists were vehicle and flyer spam, none of which will be affected by Chapter Tactics (they stated perfectly clear in one of the recent blog posts that they will only affect Infantery, Bikes and Dreadnoughts.

"Normal" Space Marine lists have not been performing well, and as such they are in need of a buff (many other armies are as well). I'd rather get that buff in the form of a codex, adding more interesting stuff, instead of just changing what is already there. I trust GW with this.

The simple answer would to be to 'Asterisk' the fancy new powers in the codexes,

* = in matched play these should only be used against an opponent who also has * rules.

that way the competitive crowd gets to have more even matches and everybody else gets to play with their new toys

A bit disappointed the Aggressors were't a more unique design vs the gravis captain, something more like the artwork from 2004 would have been better imho.

 MajorTom11 wrote:
A bit disappointed the Aggressors were't a more unique design vs the gravis captain, something more like the artwork from 2004 would have been better imho.

Not disagreeing with you Tom but that old artwork was clearly the old marines. IDK what it is about the new kits, they are technically superbly done but for some reason they have ZERO character to me. The new marine kits remind me of Necron kits in that regard.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 alleus wrote:

the_scotsman wrote:
Which is why 2/3 of the top lists in the first 8th Ed GT were Ultramarines and Blood Angles right? Those poor underpowered space Marines desperately need a buff!

Those lists were vehicle and flyer spam, none of which will be affected by Chapter Tactics (they stated perfectly clear in one of the recent blog posts that they will only affect Infantery, Bikes and Dreadnoughts.

"Normal" Space Marine lists have not been performing well, and as such they are in need of a buff (many other armies are as well). I'd rather get that buff in the form of a codex, adding more interesting stuff, instead of just changing what is already there. I trust GW with this.

Which event was this?

 warboss wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

You heard it here first guys. The Primaris Librarian and Apothecary are segregated to the background of the shot, they're going to get replaced soon!

Oh, and that Ancient...poor guy. Never stood a chance at being a real Marine.

Of the 20 closest ultramarines in the promo shot for the new codec they've chosen to show off, 19 are primaris and the lone exception is a primarch. Clearly normal marines are sharing equally in the limelight as you are inferring.

I would love to know how you're getting 19 Primaris as being the closest in that promo shot.

There's 5 Intercessors(they're in front of a 6 model Tactical Squad), a Lieutenant, the Ancient, Redemptor(this is being a bit generous really, since it's a vehicle not a Primaris proper), Chaplain, Apothecary, Librarian, 3 Aggressors, and 3 Inceptors.
That means 17 Primaris in the entirety of the promo shot.

And before you ask:
There's 6 Tactical Marines, 5 Devastators, the Land Raider, and the Stormhawk Interceptor.
That's 13 normal Marines with Guilliman being the spare between the two.

Seems like they are a mix of heavy bolter and missile devs on a slightly more durable platform. His this makes them any different than light Cents im not sure, but they might actually be decent unlike most other Primaris units so far.