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 Giantwalkingchair wrote:
So basically, witchhunter faith mechanic.

Anyways, this sort of talk belongs in the speculation thread.

Eh, it's not like anyone is going to have any tactical revelations about the current index in the next 5 weeks.

 deviantduck wrote:

 Giantwalkingchair wrote:
So basically, witchhunter faith mechanic.

Anyways, this sort of talk belongs in the speculation thread.

Eh, it's not like anyone is going to have any tactical revelations about the current index in the next 5 weeks.

No, but traditionally we have separated that kind of discussion from this thread to keep it clean.

 pretre wrote:

 deviantduck wrote:

 Giantwalkingchair wrote:
So basically, witchhunter faith mechanic.

Anyways, this sort of talk belongs in the speculation thread.

Eh, it's not like anyone is going to have any tactical revelations about the current index in the next 5 weeks.

No, but traditionally we have separated that kind of discussion from this thread to keep it clean.

I assume after CA we'll start a new tactics thread? Then we can burn this mother down.

 deviantduck wrote:

 pretre wrote:

 deviantduck wrote:

 Giantwalkingchair wrote:
So basically, witchhunter faith mechanic.

Anyways, this sort of talk belongs in the speculation thread.

Eh, it's not like anyone is going to have any tactical revelations about the current index in the next 5 weeks.

No, but traditionally we have separated that kind of discussion from this thread to keep it clean.

I assume after CA we'll start a new tactics thread? Then we can burn this mother down.

Again, traditionally we start a new one when a new book comes out. Not sure if this will count, but we certainly can start a new thread.

cmspano wrote:
Not very impressed by either of the reveals. The strat is bad, the order trait is worse. Basic Space Marines are garbage in melee, this turns Sisters into a T3 WS4+ space marine in melee. Maybe there are a couple niche units that could benefit from it but unless we see a radical change in stat lines it's not going to suddenly make sisters even a mediocre melee unit.

I think the big winners are Seraphim and Repressors (all Sisters vehicles have Order keyword), adding on Repentia if they get a point reduction.
Seraphim specifically benefit greatly from it, although you wouldn't assume so at first glance: assume a max sized squad of basic seraphim deepstriking, burning the strat on landing to shoot 40 BS3 bolter shots. Then charging in to swing with 21 more WS3 bolter-equivalent attacks. 61 BS3 bolter attacks for 110 points is an excellent rate.

cmspano wrote:
Not very impressed by either of the reveals. The strat is bad, the order trait is worse. Basic Space Marines are garbage in melee, this turns Sisters into a T3 WS4+ space marine in melee. Maybe there are a couple niche units that could benefit from it but unless we see a radical change in stat lines it's not going to suddenly make sisters even a mediocre melee unit.

I must be doing something wrong, because I love to charge my Sisters into shooting units that are lackluster in HTH combat. More attacks for me, they don't get to shoot when they fallback, and I have pistols if they decide to stay and fight it out. I rather like the idea on enhancing their combat effectiveness with +1 S ant +1 A on the charge.

Still, have to wait to see what other Convictions I can pick for the Order of the Imperial Rose.

PuppetSoul wrote:

cmspano wrote:
Not very impressed by either of the reveals. The strat is bad, the order trait is worse. Basic Space Marines are garbage in melee, this turns Sisters into a T3 WS4+ space marine in melee. Maybe there are a couple niche units that could benefit from it but unless we see a radical change in stat lines it's not going to suddenly make sisters even a mediocre melee unit.

I think the big winners are Seraphim and Repressors (all Sisters vehicles have Order keyword), adding on Repentia if they get a point reduction.
Seraphim specifically benefit greatly from it, although you wouldn't assume so at first glance: assume a max sized squad of basic seraphim deepstriking, burning the strat on landing to shoot 40 BS3 bolter shots. Then charging in to swing with 21 more WS3 bolter-equivalent attacks. 61 BS3 bolter attacks for 110 points is an excellent rate.

That's assuming that OoBR trait, or any of them, apply to vehicles. 9" charges aren't a given, in my experience deepstriking Seraphim are going to shoot, fail the charge and then die. Shooting twice is better than once for sure. I run my Seraphim for the double move Inferno Pistol anti-tank power they bring. So unless something else changes (admitting for sure that we don't know much currently and a lot might actually be changing) I would rather use my Seraphim in their AT role rather than as one off horde killers. I already have plenty of those that are far better protected in Repressors.

 dracpanzer wrote:

PuppetSoul wrote:

cmspano wrote:
Not very impressed by either of the reveals. The strat is bad, the order trait is worse. Basic Space Marines are garbage in melee, this turns Sisters into a T3 WS4+ space marine in melee. Maybe there are a couple niche units that could benefit from it but unless we see a radical change in stat lines it's not going to suddenly make sisters even a mediocre melee unit.

I think the big winners are Seraphim and Repressors (all Sisters vehicles have Order keyword), adding on Repentia if they get a point reduction.
Seraphim specifically benefit greatly from it, although you wouldn't assume so at first glance: assume a max sized squad of basic seraphim deepstriking, burning the strat on landing to shoot 40 BS3 bolter shots. Then charging in to swing with 21 more WS3 bolter-equivalent attacks. 61 BS3 bolter attacks for 110 points is an excellent rate.

That's assuming that OoBR trait, or any of them, apply to vehicles. 9" charges aren't a given, in my experience deepstriking Seraphim are going to shoot, fail the charge and then die. Shooting twice is better than once for sure. I run my Seraphim for the double move Inferno Pistol anti-tank power they bring. So unless something else changes (admitting for sure that we don't know much currently and a lot might actually be changing) I would rather use my Seraphim in their AT role rather than as one off horde killers. I already have plenty of those that are far better protected in Repressors.

As written, it applies to Vehicles. It would be a significant step back from where the game has been since the AM Codex to not have a Conviction include them.

Yeah thus far the only factions whose "chapter tactics" don't affect their vehicles are marines. Rumor mills says that is most likely changing in chapter approved too.

The revealed Order trait could be useful on Repressors- Str7 would not be much of a benefit, but 4 attacks (making it 12 attacks versus Infantry) is nice versus hordes.

Yeah, but it would be pretty safe to assume that like chapter tactics, vehicles wouldn't get the bonus.

Rynner wrote:Yeah thus far the only factions whose "chapter tactics" don't affect their vehicles are marines. Rumor mills says that is most likely changing in chapter approved too.

davidgr33n wrote:The revealed Order trait could be useful on Repressors- Str7 would not be much of a benefit, but 4 attacks (making it 12 attacks versus Infantry) is nice versus hordes.

Drider wrote:Yeah, but it would be pretty safe to assume that like chapter tactics, vehicles wouldn't get the bonus.

Answered in the thread.

 dracpanzer wrote:

That's assuming that OoBR trait, or any of them, apply to vehicles. 9" charges aren't a given, in my experience deepstriking Seraphim are going to shoot, fail the charge and then die. Shooting twice is better than once for sure. I run my Seraphim for the double move Inferno Pistol anti-tank power they bring. So unless something else changes (admitting for sure that we don't know much currently and a lot might actually be changing) I would rather use my Seraphim in their AT role rather than as one off horde killers. I already have plenty of those that are far better protected in Repressors.

I stated previous that even with the stratagem, I don't see deepstriking Seraphim as being a reasonable alternative to taking Inferno pistols. I'm just explaining that the stratagem actually isn't bad, it just isn't good enough to eclipse the opportunity cost of not taking Inferno Pistols. If rule of 3 and FAQ2's version of no-deepstrike-at-all weren't a thing though, I could totally see taking two 10-girl sets of them to betastrike one set on turn 1 and clear a backfield objective on turn 2.

That said, unless Repentia get points-reduced and a slingshot or deepstrike stratagem, I can't see at least a few of the other Orders eclipsing Bloody Rose in usefulness. But truth be told, Sisters were extremely close to being top tier already, so it wouldn't take much to get there: giving Celestine OotBR's bonus would be enough for her to see top-table play again. Making Exorcists not suck, and decreasing the cost of flamers and heavy flamers, would have Sisters rivaling Ynnari for the top Soup primary, and anything after that is just gravy.

PuppetSoul wrote:

 dracpanzer wrote:

That's assuming that OoBR trait, or any of them, apply to vehicles. 9" charges aren't a given, in my experience deepstriking Seraphim are going to shoot, fail the charge and then die. Shooting twice is better than once for sure. I run my Seraphim for the double move Inferno Pistol anti-tank power they bring. So unless something else changes (admitting for sure that we don't know much currently and a lot might actually be changing) I would rather use my Seraphim in their AT role rather than as one off horde killers. I already have plenty of those that are far better protected in Repressors.

I stated previous that even with the stratagem, I don't see deepstriking Seraphim as being a reasonable alternative to taking Inferno pistols. I'm just explaining that the stratagem actually isn't bad, it just isn't good enough to eclipse the opportunity cost of not taking Inferno Pistols. If rule of 3 and FAQ2's version of no-deepstrike-at-all weren't a thing though, I could totally see taking two 10-girl sets of them to betastrike one set on turn 1 and clear a backfield objective on turn 2.

That said, unless Repentia get points-reduced and a slingshot or deepstrike stratagem, I can't see at least a few of the other Orders eclipsing Bloody Rose in usefulness. But truth be told, Sisters were extremely close to being top tier already, so it wouldn't take much to get there: giving Celestine OotBR's bonus would be enough for her to see top-table play again. Making Exorcists not suck, and decreasing the cost of flamers and heavy flamers, would have Sisters rivaling Ynnari for the top Soup primary, and anything after that is just gravy.

I really like the new stratagem. It gives me a reason to actually bring a second squad of Seraphim. Now I can have the fast moving turn 1 inferno pistols and the turn 2 40 shot bolter gals.

 deviantduck wrote:
I really like the new stratagem. It gives me a reason to actually bring a second squad of Seraphim. Now I can have the fast moving turn 1 inferno pistols and the turn 2 40 shot bolter gals.

Were you not bringing three sets of inferno pistol Seraphim? That seems like a big mistake.

The core of every list I build, regardless of where I'm going with it, is Celestine w/ her kids and three MSU of Seraphim with inferno pistols.

I can see dropping one of those to run the 10-girl squad when CA comes out, but right now, I can't stress enough how good minimum sized inferno pistol Seraphim are for ITC, where Repressors give up multiple secondaries and walk straight into anti-Knight firepower.

IDK about this new stuff, though awesome release (however, I can wait for codex). What I care about is should I mount my mini's on 32s or 25's... are the new mini's gunna be 32's? (for modeling and painting up my army atm. I sold a lot recently, but now am painting up a keep army and want to know base size, before waste time (ussually do 32's for SoB cause all metal they need it) I have all basic on 25's but converting to 32's and upgradin paint job, so want to know

I've been doing 32s. Old seraphim were on 25s, the Gemini are on 32s. In truth no one knows for sure, so, flip a coin.

 Drider wrote:
Yeah, but it would be pretty safe to assume that like chapter tactics, vehicles wouldn't get the bonus.

Why it would be safe to assume when minority of codexes restrict like that?

 Creeping Dementia wrote:
I've been doing 32s. Old seraphim were on 25s, the Gemini are on 32s. In truth no one knows for sure, so, flip a coin.

I sold around 4k than 2k all on 32's (I would think standard), but is GW am hesitant sometime pull out of bag


Automatically Appended Next Post:
I do all 32's for troopers, Why would you do seraphim on 25's and normal on 32's??? , All 32's they the same

I'm saying the old models were sold with 25s. The newest models we have that somewhat resemble 'regular troopers' were the Gemini, and they came on 32s.
However, they are technically part of an HQ choice, so it doesn't necessarily guarantee that all Seraphim and troopers will be on 32mm bases.

Bottom line, we won't have a clue what the actual base sizes will be until the models are released. I'd love to be able to tell you 100% that they are going to be 32s, but nobody knows right now.

PuppetSoul wrote:

 deviantduck wrote:
I really like the new stratagem. It gives me a reason to actually bring a second squad of Seraphim. Now I can have the fast moving turn 1 inferno pistols and the turn 2 40 shot bolter gals.

Were you not bringing three sets of inferno pistol Seraphim? That seems like a big mistake.

The core of every list I build, regardless of where I'm going with it, is Celestine w/ her kids and three MSU of Seraphim with inferno pistols.

I can see dropping one of those to run the 10-girl squad when CA comes out, but right now, I can't stress enough how good minimum sized inferno pistol Seraphim are for ITC, where Repressors give up multiple secondaries and walk straight into anti-Knight firepower.

When the last FAQ dropped I ditched the Seraphim for Battle Sisters. I have yet to find small Seraphim squads worth it. Meltas are too random.

WHY 32 others but 25 seraphim (all sob where 25...)


Think new Veridyan was a 32, My new Cele is a 40 + 2x 32 Gemini (if gemi 32's other have to be)

I think all will be 32's, here's hoping just to balance the models correctly.

Rynner wrote:

PuppetSoul wrote:

 deviantduck wrote:
I really like the new stratagem. It gives me a reason to actually bring a second squad of Seraphim. Now I can have the fast moving turn 1 inferno pistols and the turn 2 40 shot bolter gals.

Were you not bringing three sets of inferno pistol Seraphim? That seems like a big mistake.

The core of every list I build, regardless of where I'm going with it, is Celestine w/ her kids and three MSU of Seraphim with inferno pistols.

I can see dropping one of those to run the 10-girl squad when CA comes out, but right now, I can't stress enough how good minimum sized inferno pistol Seraphim are for ITC, where Repressors give up multiple secondaries and walk straight into anti-Knight firepower.

When the last FAQ dropped I ditched the Seraphim for Battle Sisters. I have yet to find small Seraphim squads worth it. Meltas are too random.

I've never ran more than 1 squad of Seraphim. Also, my Seraphim are on 32s. My troops are on 25s. Seraphim die to a stiff breeze, so I never ran more than my 8 man squad. Repressors are still way better than Seraphim, even in the current meta.

 deviantduck wrote:

Rynner wrote:

PuppetSoul wrote:

 deviantduck wrote:
I really like the new stratagem. It gives me a reason to actually bring a second squad of Seraphim. Now I can have the fast moving turn 1 inferno pistols and the turn 2 40 shot bolter gals.

Were you not bringing three sets of inferno pistol Seraphim? That seems like a big mistake.

The core of every list I build, regardless of where I'm going with it, is Celestine w/ her kids and three MSU of Seraphim with inferno pistols.

I can see dropping one of those to run the 10-girl squad when CA comes out, but right now, I can't stress enough how good minimum sized inferno pistol Seraphim are for ITC, where Repressors give up multiple secondaries and walk straight into anti-Knight firepower.

When the last FAQ dropped I ditched the Seraphim for Battle Sisters. I have yet to find small Seraphim squads worth it. Meltas are too random.

I've never ran more than 1 squad of Seraphim. Also, my Seraphim are on 32s. My troops are on 25s. Seraphim die to a stiff breeze, so I never ran more than my 8 man squad. Repressors are still way better than Seraphim, even in the current meta.

I take 20-30 Seraphim and love them, they do insane damage every game, you need to hide thema nd let Celestine aura also help, while behind LoS and in cover a 2+/6++ (rerolling into a 5++) that can double move out of LoS is just very good.

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 deviantduck wrote:

Rynner wrote:

PuppetSoul wrote:

 deviantduck wrote:
I really like the new stratagem. It gives me a reason to actually bring a second squad of Seraphim. Now I can have the fast moving turn 1 inferno pistols and the turn 2 40 shot bolter gals.

Were you not bringing three sets of inferno pistol Seraphim? That seems like a big mistake.

The core of every list I build, regardless of where I'm going with it, is Celestine w/ her kids and three MSU of Seraphim with inferno pistols.

I can see dropping one of those to run the 10-girl squad when CA comes out, but right now, I can't stress enough how good minimum sized inferno pistol Seraphim are for ITC, where Repressors give up multiple secondaries and walk straight into anti-Knight firepower.

When the last FAQ dropped I ditched the Seraphim for Battle Sisters. I have yet to find small Seraphim squads worth it. Meltas are too random.

I've never ran more than 1 squad of Seraphim. Also, my Seraphim are on 32s. My troops are on 25s. Seraphim die to a stiff breeze, so I never ran more than my 8 man squad. Repressors are still way better than Seraphim, even in the current meta.

I take 20-30 Seraphim and love them, they do insane damage every game, you need to hide thema nd let Celestine aura also help, while behind LoS and in cover a 2+/6++ (rerolling into a 5++) that can double move out of LoS is just very good.

I have more faith in vehicles than naked troops. I could see the argument for 2, but definitely not 3 (as it stands right now) since there's only 1 AoF available to them. Also, we disagree on their 5++ rerollable to 5++ save. BCB didn't give you a glass of kool-aid did he?

I used to run a big unit of 10 with inferno pistols but as time went on they got less and less effective. It was almost a clean swap going from 10 seraphim to 15 battle sisters. I haven't really missed them yet. I find they generally suicide forward and maybe, if they get lucky, kill something, before dying instantly.

Basically on response to page 101 in aggregate:

Seraphim are great, but I would never bring a squad of 10 while still limited to only 3 units. Too much exposure to morale for too little gain. I'm fine with 5s and 7-8 would be the MAX I would do. I don't see how battle sisters could be a clean swap.
a battalion of battle sisters is the core to every list I make, pretty much, but they can't fill any of the roles I usually use seraphim for(character assasination and covert vehicle hunting mostly) so 'swapping' them wouldn't really work.

The new stratagem will be useful if they make handflamers not totally worthless or give seraphim some other tool they can use to have decent shooting outside of 9". If they don't, then that's just a mediocre chaff clearing unit, especially considering that you only get the fire the handlamers once(the range bonus only applies in the movement phase).

The conviction is actually incredible. The problem is the army USING it sucks at taking advantage of it. But here's the thing: If sisters get ANY reasonably strong CQC options, then this conviction is ABSOLUTELY powerful enough to justify taking a bloody rose detachment. Even current repentia become absolute cuisinarts with this level of buff, despite still being to fragile/slow/expensive to ever you. If they get special rules or transportation options that make them a viable choice, this conviction is good enough that you might be able to see competitive repentia at some point.

Applying it to battle sisters and calling it terrible is incredibly shortsighted. Chapter tactics work by detachment and having such an obscenely powerful chapter tactic available for running a close combat focused detachment is really strong. Imagine Celestine with 7 S8 AP3 attacks and 8 S4 AP3 attacks. Pair that monstrosity up with some solid supporting combat units and you could have a terrifying little CQC backbone for once.

I meant points wise in terms of a swap. 3x Naked BSS squads are 145, 10x Seraphim with infernos are 146.

They don't exactly do the same thing but 5x more Command points have been way more useful post FAQ.

I have to agree with erjak on the chapter tactic not being totally useless. It doesn't do wonders for our WS4 models as they are still ws4. But it does open up the option of throwing in a power weapon on a superior without it being a total waste. It makes celestians slightly viable as the superior now gets 4 ws3 attacks, 5 with a priest, give her a p.axe and she's has a respectable s5 ap-2. Best of all it makes seraphim not completely useless in melee. Which I think is the key thing here, a buff this powerful has taken our melee from guard in SM quantity to being on par with sm and making melee weapon options not a total waste of points.

 deviantduck wrote:

 Amishprn86 wrote:

 deviantduck wrote:

Rynner wrote:

PuppetSoul wrote:

 deviantduck wrote:
I really like the new stratagem. It gives me a reason to actually bring a second squad of Seraphim. Now I can have the fast moving turn 1 inferno pistols and the turn 2 40 shot bolter gals.

Were you not bringing three sets of inferno pistol Seraphim? That seems like a big mistake.

The core of every list I build, regardless of where I'm going with it, is Celestine w/ her kids and three MSU of Seraphim with inferno pistols.

I can see dropping one of those to run the 10-girl squad when CA comes out, but right now, I can't stress enough how good minimum sized inferno pistol Seraphim are for ITC, where Repressors give up multiple secondaries and walk straight into anti-Knight firepower.

When the last FAQ dropped I ditched the Seraphim for Battle Sisters. I have yet to find small Seraphim squads worth it. Meltas are too random.

I've never ran more than 1 squad of Seraphim. Also, my Seraphim are on 32s. My troops are on 25s. Seraphim die to a stiff breeze, so I never ran more than my 8 man squad. Repressors are still way better than Seraphim, even in the current meta.

I take 20-30 Seraphim and love them, they do insane damage every game, you need to hide thema nd let Celestine aura also help, while behind LoS and in cover a 2+/6++ (rerolling into a 5++) that can double move out of LoS is just very good.

I have more faith in vehicles than naked troops. I could see the argument for 2, but definitely not 3 (as it stands right now) since there's only 1 AoF available to them. Also, we disagree on their 5++ rerollable to 5++ save. BCB didn't give you a glass of kool-aid did he?

I only play vehicles for fun lists, otherwise its 100+ bodies on the table lol


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Rynner wrote:
I meant points wise in terms of a swap. 3x Naked BSS squads are 145, 10x Seraphim with infernos are 146.

They don't exactly do the same thing but 5x more Command points have been way more useful post FAQ.

I take a Brigade and Outrider, i waste CP's like a boss and i still have left over ones, i really dont need more than 16 CP as of right now.