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Nobody gives a damn because they're predators and therefor not a part of this army. Go back to the marine threads.

Woah, back it off a bit. People do care about relative effectiveness. There's also such a thing as converting models to represent SOB versions of other units.

I, for instance, have 3 penitent engines with double autocannon arms.

 pretre wrote:
Woah, back it off a bit. People do care about relative effectiveness. There's also such a thing as converting models to represent SOB versions of other units.

I, for instance, have 3 penitent engines with double autocannon arms.

And yet they can't actually be SoB in the rules even if you convert them.

So what? Doesn't mean that I won't use them in combination with my SOB army.

It's not like you'd let my disapproval stop you XD

 Melissia wrote:
It's not like you'd let my disapproval stop you XD

Just because I'm 'used to' you doesn't mean everyone is. Let's not stifle legitimate discussion in the thread.

I have often thought about converting Baal Preds into sister equivalents. Flamestorm cannons seem like they would be popular with the sisterhood

However, I often prefer to keep things pure for my sisters list so I never got around to doing it.

I've always been a fan of malleable Imperial forces, having been around since the era where Daemonhunters and Witch Hunters were meant to be allied codecies in the first place. Inquisition being written into unplayability is basically just further impetus to mix in a wider breadth of units, since what should have been the face of my force is not even usable anymore. Inquisitor Tumnal is too busy filing paperwork for all of his requisitions to make it to the battlefield himself!

I see nothing wrong with Sisters being part of a greater whole in an army (although I do wish it was represented more as Sisters with Celestine as an option amoungst many, as opposed to optimal solutions being Celestine with some obligatory sisters so as not to waste faith). If anything, it only makes sense for the Imperial Guard to find their way into just about every Imperial force in one way or another.

 Melissia wrote:
Nobody gives a damn because they're predators and therefor not a part of this army. Go back to the marine threads.

It does matter. Logical comparisons with other data sources are how you find flaws. I find it very interesting, as it shows the nature of the tanks have diverged - one hunts armor, the other hunts heavy infantry now.

1. Appreciate the people who are either standing up for me/my posts, or standing up to Melissia. Don't necessarily need it, but I appreciate it.


2. Melissia, you might want to get your facts straight. Check my post count and where those posts are. 68 posts, 64 in tactica, all in Sisters threads.

I get you want to play pure Sisters, but don't berate me for trying to give people informed information. I was asked for the math, I gave it.


3. You're correct that Predators aren't part of the Sisters sub-faction, but we are Imperial first. If the God-Emperor deems that I should bring a team of Ratling abhumans to smite Heretics and Witches with, then I shall do so at His pleasure.

Hell, imo, bikes, non-grav Centurions and Predators should be part of our armory anyway and one of the few fan dexes I actually like is Sister Sidney's. If anything, I'm taking things I think should already be ours and just adding them to the list.


4. As a tank hunter, the Exorcist simply doesn't do the job anymore; anyone who tries to use one that way is wasting valuable shots that can be taken at other targets, and possibly valuable points that could be better put into Dominions, Melta-Retributors (maybe), and Melta-Immolators.

Dominions/Rets vs T7, 3+:

Inside melta-range: 7.95 unsaved wounds per turn


Outside melta-range: 6.22


Twin multi-melta on an Immolator is 3.11 outside melta range, 3.97 inside melta-range.


Hell, even Celestine is a a decent tank hunter now:. If you give her the Warlord Trait for +1A:

7 * 5/6 * 1/2 * 5/6 * 2
7 * 25/36
4.86 WPT

3.11/4.86 = 0.64
160/150 = 1.07

That's not counting Geminae and not counting any usage of Acts of Faith. That being said, Celestine is better used as a scalpel and not a blunt instrument for hammering your oppnent's tanks into scrap.


5. What you're missing is I'm actually ANGRY about this. I have three Exorcists; if I were playing 8E, they'd be sitting on the shelf collecting dust because they don't do the job they've done since third edition: murder tanks and MCs

The +1S, +1T and 6++ don't justify a vehicle that should be between 125 and 140 points costing 160. That or quad-las Predators are cheaper than they should be, and I don't discount that possibility either.

 ncshooter426 wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Nobody gives a damn because they're predators and therefor not a part of this army. Go back to the marine threads.

It does matter. Logical comparisons with other data sources are how you find flaws. I find it very interesting, as it shows the nature of the tanks have diverged - one hunts armor, the other hunts heavy infantry now.

A mathammer comparison for the Exorcist vs vehicles or vs infantry is not the same as advocating that the army be played with whatever units are better than Sister units in every slot. Which perhaps apart from Celestine is easy to find in every slot in many of the other Imperial armies.

Those armies have their own tactics threads.

Also? Just because you have posts in tactics threads doesn't really mean much. Am I supposed to be impressed or something? If we're going to be measuring each others' quality based on post counts, mine's on a whole other level that can only be compared with a few other posters on this forum So let's not. It's a silly and pointless game to play.

I'm a purist, I don't deny. But the thing is, predators aren't Sisters of Battle units. Sisters can't take them. Even if Predators are wholly and utterly superior, because Exorcists are our only choice, they may very well be a viable choice. Or may not. All depends on everything else Sisters DO have.

Everyone has achieved chill status - standing down from exterminatus.

I never said anything about post count. I said look at my posts and where they are. 94% of them have been in the tactica threads, 100% of which have been in Sisters threads yet you advocated I return to posting in Marine tactica threads, which I have never done

And stop thinking 3rd through 7th edition -- Sisters can absolutely take Predators if you want. It's an Imperium vehicle, just like the Stormlord or the Avenger Strike Fighter, just like the old 2nd edition allies rules. Until we're given Order-specific stratagems or other rules that require you to play a force consisting of only Adepta Sororitas keyword or <Order> keyword, there's no point in not discussing the merits and flaws of including other Imperium units in a Sisters army.

I get you want to be a purist, I respect you want to be a purist. I just want to give people more information. This isn't "go play Space Marines, Sisters are junk". This is "if you want a tank hunter, consider other alternatives. The Exorcist is overcosted as a tank hunter and really isn't a tank hunter anymore."

I agree, I just think we should focus on Sisters alternatives rather than Space Marines alternatives. My post was, like a lot of things I post, a bit overstating my point. But still. There's things purist Sisters can take that are better at being heavy support or anti-tank than exorcists, such as Penitent Engines, Retributors, melta-doms, etc.

Why? Those non-Sisters alternatives are completely viable until we're given reasons why they aren't like the examples I gave above. Like the force I wanted to build for Castellans but never got to that was mostly Sisters (BSS, Dominions, Exos, Seraphim) but also included Sentinels, Raptors bikes, Raptors Sternguard... Some type of fast, in your face strike force.

And, hell, I'm still wondering where our Dominica Drop Pod is so we can drop Retributors into melta-range and let them rip apart a Knight or Land Raider. Or drop those same Retributors with Heavy Flamers behind some heretics to toast!

Though now I am curious. If I'd been math-hammering Imperial Guard tanks, would we be arguing this? Or is it because I'm bringing up SM alternatives in particular? I'm willing to take this part of the conversation to PMs, I just want to know so I can understand a little better and understand you a little better.

While it's true that in the lore, elements of the Imperial Guard is at least more likely to operate under the de facto command (if not de jure) of a Sisters of Battle commander than elements of the Adeptus Astartes, unless you're doing a themed list (say, Holy Crusade list as it were) I usually counsel not doing it. Actually, guard DO benefit from Ecclesiarchy character buffs...

I'm glad you posted the comparison. I pretty much exclusively play ITC rules and as long as 50.1% of your army is SoB, it's a SoB army. I try to be a purist as much as possible, but Exos that can't use AoF aren't worth their points. I'll probably get 2x earthskakers and possibly a second avenger. I've played one game with the Avenger and it was pretty decent. The tactical bombs were neat. I welcome all comparisons you want to put iin this channel.

As much as I've wanted to be a purist, Sisters really have a very incomplete toolkit that might be perfectly fine for beating your friends' fluffy armies, but is going to not be top tier.

I like this edition breaking up the IG platoons and the Imperial detachments because it makes adding guard much more viable (previously I was generally having to ally in space marines to avoid hefty troop taxes).

I guess in my case, it's not so much a desire for purity as a desire to field a non-SM Imperial army.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 deviantduck wrote:
I'm glad you posted the comparison. I pretty much exclusively play ITC rules and as long as 50.1% of your army is SoB, it's a SoB army. I try to be a purist as much as possible, but Exos that can't use AoF aren't worth their points. I'll probably get 2x earthskakers and possibly a second avenger. I've played one game with the Avenger and it was pretty decent. The tactical bombs were neat. I welcome all comparisons you want to put iin this channel.

Is that 50.1% by point value or by units?

Considering that people were complaining that the Blood Angels tournament winner wasn't a legit blood angels because a third of the six fliers in the list were from the regular SM flyer list rather than the BA flyer list (which contains just stormravens)... and at least one person told me my BA list isn't properly BA even though it contains 100% units in the BA unit list...

I'm not sure very many people would follow that 50%+1 rule for figuring out what a certain army belongs to.

Regardless, I'd say retributors are a far better heavy support choice and advocate melta-doms as dedicated anti-tank. Either one in repressors is easily able to get in range to deal their best damage.

I have say that Melta doms certainly did work today. I got in a game against nids and they just killed the crap out of anything they pointed at.

I got to try a pure Ministorum list against Chaos the other day. (It wasn't pure Sisters, since I brought one Priest, but... Close enough.)
I brought a bunch of Battle Sisters with Storm Bolters, partly because I hadn't considered how cheesy Dominions can be when used as basic infantry, but mostly because I was just trying to fill out a Brigade.

Thoughts?
Well, my pair of Exorcists kicked butt, but I also never rolled below a '3' for number of shots, and never got a '1' for damage, so... It was more luck than efficiency.
Retributors were meh on their own... Which is why I didn't have them on their own. With a Canoness and an Act of Faith to boost them up, they had hella good firepower that let me shred... Pretty much anything! I don't think I finished off any single unit with them, but I was able to put pressure on a ton of different units all together.

My swarm of basic troops was pretty darn good. He had Poxwalkers buffed by Typhus, but Celestine was able to sneak in and hit Typhus, and even before he was down, I had 100 bolter shots coming downfield from a mere 30 models, which was really fun and impressive, and let me put enough wounds on his hordes to keep them from getting overwhelming.

Seraphim with Hand Flamers were kinda junk. For their cost... I should have just brought more Storm Bolters.

Seraphim with Melta Pistols were significantly less junk. Thanks to Acts of Faith letting me cover a ton of ground in a single turn, I could get right up by his vulnerable tanks. I'm definitely seeing these chicks as a viable alternative to Melta Dominions - They're not *quite* as good, but they're close, and since the melta pistols are two per model rather than one per model, the 'Bring a dead sister back to life' AoF becomes pretty potent if you have it to spare and don't need the double-move.
Speaking of which, Melta dominions in a Repressor are theoretically scary. I wouldn't know, because the Repressor scared my opponent enough that he poured fire into killing it right away, so I just had a footslogging squad instead. It did pretty good though, regardless, popping a Predator.


Repentia never really got a chance to shine, mostly due to everything near them being killed before they could get out of their Rhino. Once I did get them out of their Rhino and charge... Well, all that was left to fight was some poxwalkers and one unit of Plague Marines, but they cleaned up those Poxwalkers and Plague Marines with ruthless efficiency. I think having a Mistress of Repentance and Ministorum Priest nearby are both mandatory, for the rerolls and bonus attacks, and while it's not the most devastating unit ever, it can lay down the hurt on heavy infantry/2w and 3w models. If you can soak up overwatch, it's a great way to kill Terminators and bikes.

Things you want in every list so far from experience.

Celestine - I've found her to be very fragile this edition. Once she is focused on she goes down quickly. If you rush up her up too quickly and leave her support behind she will die. I use her to counter charge or hit weaker flanks, otherwise I keep her close to the dominions to use her act of faith on them.

3-4 Dominions with Meltas in Immolation Flamers Immolators - They can deal with anything in the game right now and will effectively murder anything you point them at.

1-2 Retributors with heavy flamers in Repressor - They can deal with hordes and with terminators (turning them into 3+ saves). I have used this unit to great effect by moving them close to terminators, flaming the crap out of them, having the repressor charge them so they could not move and then fall back on my next turn only to have the retributors use their flamer again. Remember the unit falling back is the repressors and since the retributors arent on the table and instead using the firepoints rule, they can still shoot. My repressor was severaly damaged in the process but this unit managed to take down two deathwing squads using this tactic.

1-2 Retributors with heavy bolters. - I would recommend putting more models than the minimum squad requirements here. Once your opponent figures out how good they are at dealing with anything other than vehicules, they will become a higher priority target and will die quickly. I go for 10 models if I can, but if I need to save points, I will stay at 8.

Thing I will always use, but are up to personal preferences:

Canoness with Eviscerator - She is great in the back to buff up your Heavy Bolter retributors and if anything gets close enough to charge them, she is great in combat with her heroic intervention. Mine so far as managed to kill 3 Terminators as well as a Shard of the Deceiver and Skarbrand in close combat. The last two had been somewhat weakened by shooting first, but she easilly dispatched them once they got close.

Voldrak wrote:
Things you want in every list so far from experience.

Celestine - I've found her to be very fragile this edition. Once she is focused on she goes down quickly. If you rush up her up too quickly and leave her support behind she will die. I use her to counter charge or hit weaker flanks, otherwise I keep her close to the dominions to use her act of faith on them.

This is one thing I couldn't disagree more on. Yes, Celestine isn't quite the tank she was in 7th edition, but she's also much harder to target. Furthermore, she can effectively move 24" per turn, allowing her to charge nearly anything on the board without an excessive amount of difficulty. Alternatively, you can get back d3 wounds if you don't need that extra movement.
(For context: I run her with a single geminae, to get maximum efficiency on regeneration.)
d3 wounds, plus a Geminae every turn, plus recovering 7 wounds the first time she dies, makes her really really difficult to take down - At the very minimum, Celestine and one Geminae will need to take 18 wounds through a 2+4++ before they die, and they can't be targeted unless they're the closest unit. She'll take 432 lasgun shots to kill. (Well, assuming a 4+ to hit that is.) She'll take 189 Boltgun shots to kill. (This time assuming a 3+ to hit.) She's certainly not impossible to kill, but she's still fairly beefy. She'll take 28 overchaged Plasma shots to kill.

All this assumes she only regenerates the Geminae once, and never gets a chance to use an Act of Faith to get back up.

This is pretty much why I said you need to keep Celestine behind her support.

Charge her forward where she can be counter charged or doesnt have another target between herself and the shooters and she will go down. Your opponent won't be sending lasguns at her, but lascannons. With proper use of command points she will take damage quickly.

I've had a Shard of the Deceiver reposition along with an Overlord with Scythe and charge her and she did not last in that combat. Skarbrand also made very short work of her since she couldnt falll back from him. She needs to be very careful with anything that has potential to do multiple d6 dmg basically since she's a magnet for those attacks.

Voldrak wrote:
This is pretty much why I said you need to keep Celestine behind her support.

Charge her forward where she can be counter charged or doesnt have another target between herself and the shooters and she will go down. Your opponent won't be sending lasguns at her, but lascannons. With proper use of command points she will take damage quickly.

I've had a Shard of the Deceiver reposition along with an Overlord with Scythe and charge her and she did not last in that combat. Skarbrand also made very short work of her since she couldnt falll back from him. She needs to be very careful with anything that has potential to do multiple d6 dmg basically since she's a magnet for those attacks.

Lascannons are SUPER inefficient against Celestine. In order to kill her and one Geminae (Assuming each regenerate once) you need 18 Lascannon shots, and that's rounding the average damage per shot up from 3.5 to 4, to account for Command Points. (7 Lascannons to kill the Geminae twice, 11 to kill Celestine twice.)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
(For the record: The best weapons for killing Celestine are going to be S6 and Ap-2. If the strength is higher or AP lower, then the weapon is spending extra points for something that it simply isn't going to use. If anything is lower, then Celestine is getting better durability against you. Repentia are pretty darned efficient at killing Celestine, if you've got a Mistress of Repentance and a Priest nearby - And they're S6, AP-2.)

Waaaghpower wrote:

Voldrak wrote:
This is pretty much why I said you need to keep Celestine behind her support.

Charge her forward where she can be counter charged or doesnt have another target between herself and the shooters and she will go down. Your opponent won't be sending lasguns at her, but lascannons. With proper use of command points she will take damage quickly.

I've had a Shard of the Deceiver reposition along with an Overlord with Scythe and charge her and she did not last in that combat. Skarbrand also made very short work of her since she couldnt falll back from him. She needs to be very careful with anything that has potential to do multiple d6 dmg basically since she's a magnet for those attacks.

Lascannons are SUPER inefficient against Celestine. In order to kill her and one Geminae (Assuming each regenerate once) you need 18 Lascannon shots, and that's rounding the average damage per shot up from 3.5 to 4, to account for Command Points. (7 Lascannons to kill the Geminae twice, 11 to kill Celestine twice.)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
(For the record: The best weapons for killing Celestine are going to be S6 and Ap-2. If the strength is higher or AP lower, then the weapon is spending extra points for something that it simply isn't going to use. If anything is lower, then Celestine is getting better durability against you. Repentia are pretty darned efficient at killing Celestine, if you've got a Mistress of Repentance and a Priest nearby - And they're S6, AP-2.)

You kill the geminae with small arms then shoot lascannons. It's not like you're trying to kill her in a single unit's worth of shooting.

Mavnas wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:

Voldrak wrote:
This is pretty much why I said you need to keep Celestine behind her support.

Charge her forward where she can be counter charged or doesnt have another target between herself and the shooters and she will go down. Your opponent won't be sending lasguns at her, but lascannons. With proper use of command points she will take damage quickly.

I've had a Shard of the Deceiver reposition along with an Overlord with Scythe and charge her and she did not last in that combat. Skarbrand also made very short work of her since she couldnt falll back from him. She needs to be very careful with anything that has potential to do multiple d6 dmg basically since she's a magnet for those attacks.

Lascannons are SUPER inefficient against Celestine. In order to kill her and one Geminae (Assuming each regenerate once) you need 18 Lascannon shots, and that's rounding the average damage per shot up from 3.5 to 4, to account for Command Points. (7 Lascannons to kill the Geminae twice, 11 to kill Celestine twice.)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
(For the record: The best weapons for killing Celestine are going to be S6 and Ap-2. If the strength is higher or AP lower, then the weapon is spending extra points for something that it simply isn't going to use. If anything is lower, then Celestine is getting better durability against you. Repentia are pretty darned efficient at killing Celestine, if you've got a Mistress of Repentance and a Priest nearby - And they're S6, AP-2.)

You kill the geminae with small arms then shoot lascannons. It's not like you're trying to kill her in a single unit's worth of shooting.

Okay, so it takes 7 Plasma shots to kill the Geminae twice, and 11 Lascannons to kill Celestine twice. You're still looking at a vast amount of firepower needed to kill her, assuming you can get everything lined up and in range.
Just to get the Lascannons needed, that's going to cost 275 points for any Marine player. (And I'm assuming Marines because I'm assuming 3+ to hit.) Not 275 points total - Just 275 points for the weapons alone. Add in the cost of the people or tanks holding the weapons, and however you're going to get those 7 plasma shots (Though Plasma is cheap enough that it's pretty plausible) and you're looking at easily 500+ points of what-you-claim-to-be optimized firepower to kill a 200 points of models. (And you have to fire it all at once, because if you wait around and allow any turns to pass, Celestine will regenerate like Wolverine and increase the amount of firepower you need exponentially. And again, this also assumes that all of your weapons will be able to target her - A very unlikely prospect. (It also assumes that she doesn't kill you first or otherwise tie you up in close combat, which is very possible considering how incredibly fast she is.)

I'm not saying she's the most indestructible tank in the game, but she is really, really beefy nonetheless.

Waaaghpower wrote:
Okay, so it takes 7 Plasma shots to kill the Geminae twice, and 11 Lascannons to kill Celestine twice. You're still looking at a vast amount of firepower needed to kill her, assuming you can get everything lined up and in range.
Just to get the Lascannons needed, that's going to cost 275 points for any Marine player. (And I'm assuming Marines because I'm assuming 3+ to hit.) Not 275 points total - Just 275 points for the weapons alone. Add in the cost of the people or tanks holding the weapons, and however you're going to get those 7 plasma shots (Though Plasma is cheap enough that it's pretty plausible) and you're looking at easily 500+ points of what-you-claim-to-be optimized firepower to kill a 200 points of models. (And you have to fire it all at once, because if you wait around and allow any turns to pass, Celestine will regenerate like Wolverine and increase the amount of firepower you need exponentially. And again, this also assumes that all of your weapons will be able to target her - A very unlikely prospect. (It also assumes that she doesn't kill you first or otherwise tie you up in close combat, which is very possible considering how incredibly fast she is.)

I'm not saying she's the most indestructible tank in the game, but she is really, really beefy nonetheless.

But 500+ points killing 200 isn't really that inefficient. Any unit that could make its points back in a single turn of shooting would be crazy OP, also I believe we were discussing this in the context of her getting overextended if you charged the enemy too early. In this case, him getting his firepower in position wouldn't be an issue. She's definitely tankier than the old version, but the one we had for a few months at the end of 7th way much less squishy than this one.

Mavnas wrote:

Waaaghpower wrote:
Okay, so it takes 7 Plasma shots to kill the Geminae twice, and 11 Lascannons to kill Celestine twice. You're still looking at a vast amount of firepower needed to kill her, assuming you can get everything lined up and in range.
Just to get the Lascannons needed, that's going to cost 275 points for any Marine player. (And I'm assuming Marines because I'm assuming 3+ to hit.) Not 275 points total - Just 275 points for the weapons alone. Add in the cost of the people or tanks holding the weapons, and however you're going to get those 7 plasma shots (Though Plasma is cheap enough that it's pretty plausible) and you're looking at easily 500+ points of what-you-claim-to-be optimized firepower to kill a 200 points of models. (And you have to fire it all at once, because if you wait around and allow any turns to pass, Celestine will regenerate like Wolverine and increase the amount of firepower you need exponentially. And again, this also assumes that all of your weapons will be able to target her - A very unlikely prospect. (It also assumes that she doesn't kill you first or otherwise tie you up in close combat, which is very possible considering how incredibly fast she is.)

I'm not saying she's the most indestructible tank in the game, but she is really, really beefy nonetheless.

But 500+ points killing 200 isn't really that inefficient. Any unit that could make its points back in a single turn of shooting would be crazy OP, also I believe we were discussing this in the context of her getting overextended if you charged the enemy too early. In this case, him getting his firepower in position wouldn't be an issue. She's definitely tankier than the old version, but the one we had for a few months at the end of 7th way much less squishy than this one.

500+ points of dedicated, specialized firepower killing 200 points of an ideal target is absolutely inefficient in 8th edition, where the game is incredibly bloody and most games end in one or both players being obliterated. I'm going to use comparisons off the top of my head:

If you want to kill 250 points of Terminators (That is, 5 Terminators,) you need 14 overcharged Plasma Shots that hits on 3+. Even if we ignore the obvious choice, you can get 14 Plasma Shots in a Drop Pod for 250 points using plain ol' Company Veterans.

If you want to kill 200 points of Ork Boyz, (That is, 33 Ork Boyz,) you need 360 points of Dominions with Storm Bolters, 300pts if those Dominions use an Act of Faith to get bonus shots.

If you want to kill a 200 point Quad-Las Predator, you need 8 Lascannon shots which - For the sake of convenience, can come from two 200 point Quad-Las Predators. If you prefer a more efficient route, you can just take two squads of five Devestators with 4 Lascannons, which comes in at 165 points per squad - 330 points in total.


You notice something about all the options above? When taking a weapon that specializes in killing the target, you never need more than twice the cost of the target, and on average it breaks down to something between 150% and 175%.

For Celestine, you need 250%.


(I'm not comparing melee here, because Melee is almost universally more bloody, but also harder to accomplish and potentially costly since Celestine will get the chance to strike back.)