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That's a fair point. I really wish canonesses had jump packs...
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
PanzerLeader wrote: So looking at the SM codex as a role model, what are people's thoughts on double battalion or brigade lists? I suspect CP are about to become a lot more important
Until we know for sure that the Sisters dex (if) uses CP's or instead uses even more Faith points its hard to say. I am all in for Outrider detachments at the moment, but I would go for a battalion on the cheap with an outrider before I went for the brigade. Those tax units start to add up after a while.
Yeah, but what "tax" units were you NOT going to take anyway?
Elite? You were going to take an Imagifier. At least one.
Fast? You were going to take Doms AND Seraphin anyway.
Heavy? You were planning to take Heavy Bolter Rets. Or take two Heavy Flamer Rets in an Imolator and send them in behind your Doms in an Imolator.
My guideline for Sisters army lists is Girls, Girls, and more Girls, generating as many Acts of Faith per turn as possible.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Melissia wrote: That's a fair point. I really wish canonesses had jump packs...
Yeah, that's a GLARING omition.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/30 23:07:37
PanzerLeader wrote: So looking at the SM codex as a role model, what are people's thoughts on double battalion or brigade lists? I suspect CP are about to become a lot more important
Until we know for sure that the Sisters dex (if) uses CP's or instead uses even more Faith points its hard to say. I am all in for Outrider detachments at the moment, but I would go for a battalion on the cheap with an outrider before I went for the brigade. Those tax units start to add up after a while.
Yeah, but what "tax" units were you NOT going to take anyway?
Elite? You were going to take an Imagifier. At least one.
Fast? You were going to take Doms AND Seraphin anyway.
Heavy? You were planning to take Heavy Bolter Rets. Or take two Heavy Flamer Rets in an Imolator and send them in behind your Doms in an Imolator.
My guideline for Sisters army lists is Girls, Girls, and more Girls, generating as many Acts of Faith per turn as possible.
6 Battle Sister Squads.
I also run with 0 Imagifiers in my list right now, because I have nobody for them to buff. Dominions in transports can't receive an Act of Faith, and Dominions outside of transports are too far away from Imagifiers to be able to receive an Act of Faith from anyone other than Celestine. In addition, Imagifiers are an additional deployment drop, and block Vanguard if loaded into a transport, so they're really not something I'm going to take if I can avoid it. At 40 points and a drop, I'd rather take a stock Dominions squad, and a stack of H-K missiles would be more effective.
Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades!
Definitely proxy these as Storm Bolters. Nobody will mind - it's easy to remember and they're easily distinguishable from regular Sisters.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote: I also run with 0 Imagifiers in my list right now, because I have nobody for them to buff. Dominions in transports can't receive an Act of Faith, and Dominions outside of transports are too far away from Imagifiers to be able to receive an Act of Faith from anyone other than Celestine. In addition, Imagifiers are an additional deployment drop, and block Vanguard if loaded into a transport, so they're really not something I'm going to take if I can avoid it. At 40 points and a drop, I'd rather take a stock Dominions squad, and a stack of H-K missiles would be more effective.
Katherine, I'm very interested to see an example of what you're running in a 2K TAC - if you're at all happy to share? I've had a lot of the same revelations as you concerning the detachments, Imagifiers etc. and it sounds like you have a considerable number of games played to draw from.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/31 00:33:41
Unit1126PLL wrote: Do you guys think it's worth it to chop up the flamer sisters and make them into combi-flamer or storm bolter sisters? It may be /possible/...
The better way will be proxy. I don't think it's worth chopping up our Sisters just yet until the new Codex drops (as things could drastically change). If you want to make some Sisters to fill, use some Dreamforge bodies or the new Raging heroes and switch them out on plastic models, or...and I hate the idea but for the short term, Space Marines with female heads attached (which isn't hard and a...viable...I guess option).
Unit1126PLL wrote: Do you guys think it's worth it to chop up the flamer sisters and make them into combi-flamer or storm bolter sisters? It may be /possible/...
Don't chop them up, proxy if you like, but try them as flamers too. 4 doms on foot, vanguard advance move, aof advance move and then advance and flame.
You could have a threat range for a first turn 4d6 auto hits on a unit 36" (on average) from your deployment zone. Ok that may be suicidal but it would be cool. Also your foot slogger list (very cool btw) could be vulnerable to being out manoeuvred by fast cc units. Flamers autohit on overwatch (if chargers are within 8") so can be a nice deterrent/defence.
I'm not fully sold on Hospitallers. My MSU Dominions rarely have anyone left to heal, and they won't be able to keep up with the Dominions anyway.
It completely slipped my mind that the hospitaller was completely unsuited to following the dominions around, whoops! I've tentatively eliminated one and will run the other behind the retributors, using the points saved I can equip five out of six vehicles with HK missiles, what do people think of them?
Also, now that my hand is feeling better I finally made some vital progress on that canoness:
Spoiler:
I made a last minute decision to lift that black-shouldered two-tone of the Exorcists and I'm pretty pleased with the colour balance.
Re-reading the thread has infected me with doubt about my anti-tank capabilities with a foot sisters list... if Meltaguns no longer cut it, what's the plan for anti-tank, then?
Canoness is looking great Captain Joystick, what are you going to arm her with?
Unit1126PLL wrote: Re-reading the thread has infected me with doubt about my anti-tank capabilities with a foot sisters list... if Meltaguns no longer cut it, what's the plan for anti-tank, then?
Pure Sisters then Melta and Exorcists, other than that you will have to look for outside help such as the scions and other plasma toting imperium.
Sororita Katya wrote: Canoness is looking great Captain Joystick, what are you going to arm her with?
Unit1126PLL wrote: Re-reading the thread has infected me with doubt about my anti-tank capabilities with a foot sisters list... if Meltaguns no longer cut it, what's the plan for anti-tank, then?
Pure Sisters then Melta and Exorcists, other than that you will have to look for outside help such as the scions and other plasma toting imperium.
I don't plan on running any exorcists.
I suppose I'll have to trust the God-Emperor-given meltaguns.
Melta is still the best anti-tank weapon in the Sisters' armory. It's just a question of how you field it, and footslogging expensive models to get them in melta range (or even just the gun's max range) maximizes the chance that their intended target will take them out first. That's why a transport for them is so essential, the repressor allowing them to shoot without getting off is what makes it such a stand-out choice.
Beyond that, a big blob of repentia have the same problems dominions have, though a penitent engine looks very fun.
Penitents are great! I'm running three and if they're not taken down (which leaves them open to my repressor line) then they make their points up very quickly. I've always given them elite infantry though, not sure how they would go against a tank...
Sororita Katya wrote: Canoness is looking great Captain Joystick, what are you going to arm her with?
An eviscerator on her right arm, I've shaved the thumb off the book and used a bit from a skitari rust stalker to make it look like she's holding it in an augmetic left hand.
I'll run her with bolt/plasma/inferno pistol as required and points allowed, she's got enough stuff on her hips or under robes that I can justify it being holstered somewhere.
I realize now I missed a golden opportunity: could have mounted the eviscerator on the augmetic and called her Sister Ashley.
Captain Joystick wrote: Melta is still the best anti-tank weapon in the Sisters' armory. It's just a question of how you field it, and footslogging expensive models to get them in melta range (or even just the gun's max range) maximizes the chance that their intended target will take them out first. That's why a transport for them is so essential, the repressor allowing them to shoot without getting off is what makes it such a stand-out choice.
Beyond that, a big blob of repentia have the same problems dominions have, though a penitent engine looks very fun.
Well, my super secret plan would be to Vanguard the Dominions forwards, possibly 2 squads of 4 with meltaguns, 6+d6", then move+advance 6+d6", and fire. If I had to, I could use an act of faith on them to get them even closer, but ideally that'd be enough to take out or cripple an enemy Big Nasty, even if I can't get all of them.
What's the math on 10 meltaguns vs a Land Raider? *does math*
Looks like right around 9 wounds if they fire after advancing and hit on a 4+.
Hmm...
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/31 15:53:25
Sounds like I need more Meltaguns, or somehow finagle it that the sisters last more than the enemy's next turn so I can get another few shots. Even 2-3 more desultory hits could kill a LR (They've 16 wounds, right?)
Definitely proxy these as Storm Bolters. Nobody will mind - it's easy to remember and they're easily distinguishable from regular Sisters.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote: I also run with 0 Imagifiers in my list right now, because I have nobody for them to buff. Dominions in transports can't receive an Act of Faith, and Dominions outside of transports are too far away from Imagifiers to be able to receive an Act of Faith from anyone other than Celestine. In addition, Imagifiers are an additional deployment drop, and block Vanguard if loaded into a transport, so they're really not something I'm going to take if I can avoid it. At 40 points and a drop, I'd rather take a stock Dominions squad, and a stack of H-K missiles would be more effective.
Katherine, I'm very interested to see an example of what you're running in a 2K TAC - if you're at all happy to share? I've had a lot of the same revelations as you concerning the detachments, Imagifiers etc. and it sounds like you have a considerable number of games played to draw from.
That's 9 drops, which doesn't actually compare super favorably, all things considered, which makes me consider eliminating the Penitent Engine and Exorcist for 2 squads of Retributors and an extra Repressor, but then I lose the anti-tank functionality of those two vehicles for added anti-infantry capacity, which isn't something I actually need. I've run my Shadowsword as an attachment to otherwise pure-sisters lists, which does wonders for driving the drop-count down, and is effective.
I don't actually get a lot of chances to test out 2k lists, because the local league plays 75PL. Why they play 75PL escapes me, because all our "casual" games use points, but whatever.
In general, I err on the side of "too much antitank" to "too little antitank". Vehicles are everywhere in my local meta, and I can always point meltaguns at infantry once I run out of vehicle targets. I might have to change it up though, because I saw one of the local Tyranids players switch from mostly Monstrous Creatures to running 90+ Hormagaunts with increased success, so I think that, if people are paying attention, the local Tyranids, Orks, and Necrons may shift towards having more infantry in the near future, which would require increased anti-infantry commitment on my part.
I'm not fully sold on Hospitallers. My MSU Dominions rarely have anyone left to heal, and they won't be able to keep up with the Dominions anyway.
It completely slipped my mind that the hospitaller was completely unsuited to following the dominions around, whoops! I've tentatively eliminated one and will run the other behind the retributors, using the points saved I can equip five out of six vehicles with HK missiles, what do people think of them?
Also, now that my hand is feeling better I finally made some vital progress on that canoness:
Spoiler:
I made a last minute decision to lift that black-shouldered two-tone of the Exorcists and I'm pretty pleased with the colour balance.
Nice!
I like H-K missiles. They're an almost a necessity when fielding Repressors, I think, since Repressors can't take TL Multimeltas. In addition, they've got long enough range to reach to the back and stick hits on Manticores and Wyverns, which helps out quite a bit too.
Sororita Katya wrote:Penitents are great! I'm running three and if they're not taken down (which leaves them open to my repressor line) then they make their points up very quickly. I've always given them elite infantry though, not sure how they would go against a tank...
Penitents work on tanks too. I blew up a Land Raider with one, but the ensuing explosion also killed the Penitent Engine.
Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades!
Sororita Katya wrote:Penitents are great! I'm running three and if they're not taken down (which leaves them open to my repressor line) then they make their points up very quickly. I've always given them elite infantry though, not sure how they would go against a tank...
Penitents work on tanks too. I blew up a Land Raider with one, but the ensuing explosion also killed the Penitent Engine.
I'm running 4 penitent engines (2 squads of 2) behind Big C, Seraphim, 5 squads of Dominions and 5 Immolators. It's doing the God-Emperor's work in my clubs league!
I've said previously either in this thread or the old one that the problem with Penitent Engines is that if someone really wants them dead then they're going to die and there's not much you can do about it. I've found though that if you front load enough threat then they'll survive long enough to get into combat and rape face. My last game was VS horde orks with a gorkanaut and a morkanaut. on turn 1 my 12 melta guns only managed to bring one of the big guys down to just under the first degradation tier who then got healed back over it next turn by a mech. The next turn when the penitents got to charge the walkers, they just turned them inside out. it was insane.
PanzerLeader wrote: So looking at the SM codex as a role model, what are people's thoughts on double battalion or brigade lists? I suspect CP are about to become a lot more important
Until we know for sure that the Sisters dex (if) uses CP's or instead uses even more Faith points its hard to say. I am all in for Outrider detachments at the moment, but I would go for a battalion on the cheap with an outrider before I went for the brigade. Those tax units start to add up after a while.
Yeah, but what "tax" units were you NOT going to take anyway?
Elite? You were going to take an Imagifier. At least one.
Fast? You were going to take Doms AND Seraphin anyway.
Heavy? You were planning to take Heavy Bolter Rets. Or take two Heavy Flamer Rets in an Imolator and send them in behind your Doms in an Imolator.
My guideline for Sisters army lists is Girls, Girls, and more Girls, generating as many Acts of Faith per turn as possible.
6 Battle Sister Squads.
I also run with 0 Imagifiers in my list right now, because I have nobody for them to buff. Dominions in transports can't receive an Act of Faith, and Dominions outside of transports are too far away from Imagifiers to be able to receive an Act of Faith from anyone other than Celestine. In addition, Imagifiers are an additional deployment drop, and block Vanguard if loaded into a transport, so they're really not something I'm going to take if I can avoid it. At 40 points and a drop, I'd rather take a stock Dominions squad, and a stack of H-K missiles would be more effective.
Exactly that, those BSS just aren't fitting in. Vanguard is the real AoF for Dominions, even bare bones squads doubled up in Repressors is better than BSS. One Imagifer is enough to buy stormbolters for four squads of Dominions. I know which I would rather have.
Is Vanguard so powerful that I'm better off running Bolter Sisters as Dominions rather than in BSS? Should I just eliminate the idea of a BSS from my head and run multiple Outriders full of Dominions but with essentially the same loadout?
Is Vanguard so powerful that I'm better off running Bolter Sisters as Dominions rather than in BSS? Should I just eliminate the idea of a BSS from my head and run multiple Outriders full of Dominions but with essentially the same loadout?
Yes. As I said, even on foot, if you're not pushing the frontline, the ability to re-deploy your Dominions in response to the enemy deployment is huge.
Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades!
Is Vanguard so powerful that I'm better off running Bolter Sisters as Dominions rather than in BSS? Should I just eliminate the idea of a BSS from my head and run multiple Outriders full of Dominions but with essentially the same loadout?
Yes. As I said, even on foot, if you're not pushing the frontline, the ability to re-deploy your Dominions in response to the enemy deployment is huge.
It saddens me that the poor BSS is so overshadowed, but I am gladdened by the increase in mobility I have - I know I won't be as mobile as transport-bound sisters, but I do feel like I have options both with Vanguard and Acts of Faith to maneuver about the field more easily than the usual footslogging horde.
That said, is 4 Imagifiers too many? I know that's only ~2 extra AOF's a turn, but redeploying could be huge, healing could be huge, and even if there's no need for that, extra bullets always help.
It's worth noting that I'll likely have 0 units in my army that can't benefit from Imagifiers as I am unlikely to take vehicles.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/31 21:57:47
Is Vanguard so powerful that I'm better off running Bolter Sisters as Dominions rather than in BSS? Should I just eliminate the idea of a BSS from my head and run multiple Outriders full of Dominions but with essentially the same loadout?
Yes. As I said, even on foot, if you're not pushing the frontline, the ability to re-deploy your Dominions in response to the enemy deployment is huge.
It saddens me that the poor BSS is so overshadowed, but I am gladdened by the increase in mobility I have - I know I won't be as mobile as transport-bound sisters, but I do feel like I have options both with Vanguard and Acts of Faith to maneuver about the field more easily than the usual footslogging horde.
That said, is 4 Imagifiers too many? I know that's only ~2 extra AOF's a turn, but redeploying could be huge, healing could be huge, and even if there's no need for that, extra bullets always help.
It's worth noting that I'll likely have 0 units in my army that can't benefit from Imagifiers as I am unlikely to take vehicles.
It's not that BSS are bad, they're just outright worse than Dominions. That's okay though, because Dominions are a unit that's special to us that the Space Marines don't have [yet].
Here's the thing:
Additional units have additional wounds, because well, there's more of them, outweighing the healing [probably, assuming there's a squad to heal]. Also, redundancy.
Additional units always have additional guns, which are always firing. That's extra shooting guaranteed, instead of extra shooting half the time.
Additional units gives better board control. Re-deploying probably isn't necessary. Also, redundancy.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2017/07/31 22:10:16
Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades!
Is Vanguard so powerful that I'm better off running Bolter Sisters as Dominions rather than in BSS? Should I just eliminate the idea of a BSS from my head and run multiple Outriders full of Dominions but with essentially the same loadout?
Yes. As I said, even on foot, if you're not pushing the frontline, the ability to re-deploy your Dominions in response to the enemy deployment is huge.
It saddens me that the poor BSS is so overshadowed, but I am gladdened by the increase in mobility I have - I know I won't be as mobile as transport-bound sisters, but I do feel like I have options both with Vanguard and Acts of Faith to maneuver about the field more easily than the usual footslogging horde.
That said, is 4 Imagifiers too many? I know that's only ~2 extra AOF's a turn, but redeploying could be huge, healing could be huge, and even if there's no need for that, extra bullets always help.
It's worth noting that I'll likely have 0 units in my army that can't benefit from Imagifiers as I am unlikely to take vehicles.
It's not that BSS are bad, they're just outright worse than Dominions. That's okay though, because Dominions are a unit that's special to us that the Space Marines don't have [yet].
Here's the thing:
Additional units have additional wounds, because well, there's more of them, outweighing the healing [probably, assuming there's a squad to heal]. Also, redundancy.
Additional units always have additional guns, which are always firing. That's extra shooting guaranteed, instead of extra shooting half the time.
Additional units gives better board control. Re-deploying probably isn't necessary. Also, redundancy.
So Imagifiers are out too - essentially, the list is Canoness x1, Retributors, Dominions, and Big C.
And the Canoness isn't worth much except as a way to buff rets, really.
The people in the past who convinced themselves to do unspeakable things were no less human than you or I. They made their decisions; the only thing that prevents history from repeating itself is making different ones.
-- Adam Serwer
My blog
Is Vanguard so powerful that I'm better off running Bolter Sisters as Dominions rather than in BSS? Should I just eliminate the idea of a BSS from my head and run multiple Outriders full of Dominions but with essentially the same loadout?
Yes. As I said, even on foot, if you're not pushing the frontline, the ability to re-deploy your Dominions in response to the enemy deployment is huge.
It saddens me that the poor BSS is so overshadowed, but I am gladdened by the increase in mobility I have - I know I won't be as mobile as transport-bound sisters, but I do feel like I have options both with Vanguard and Acts of Faith to maneuver about the field more easily than the usual footslogging horde.
That said, is 4 Imagifiers too many? I know that's only ~2 extra AOF's a turn, but redeploying could be huge, healing could be huge, and even if there's no need for that, extra bullets always help.
It's worth noting that I'll likely have 0 units in my army that can't benefit from Imagifiers as I am unlikely to take vehicles.
It's not that BSS are bad, they're just outright worse than Dominions. That's okay though, because Dominions are a unit that's special to us that the Space Marines don't have [yet].
Here's the thing:
Additional units have additional wounds, because well, there's more of them, outweighing the healing [probably, assuming there's a squad to heal]. Also, redundancy.
Additional units always have additional guns, which are always firing. That's extra shooting guaranteed, instead of extra shooting half the time.
Additional units gives better board control. Re-deploying probably isn't necessary. Also, redundancy.
So Imagifiers are out too - essentially, the list is Canoness x1, Retributors, Dominions, and Big C.
Yes, basically.
Retributors are good because there's nothing better competing for the slot.
Canonesses are there because you have to have one.
Celestine is legitimately good.
Dominions are legitimately good, with or without transport.
Seraphim are good, but only at a rate of 1 Squad Per Celestine.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2017/07/31 23:09:40
Guardsmen, hear me! Cadia may lie in ruin, but her proud people do not! For each brother and sister who gave their lives to Him as martyrs, we will reap a vengeance fiftyfold! Cadia may be no more, but will never be forgotten; our foes shall tremble in fear at the name, for their doom shall come from the barrels of Cadian guns, fired by Cadian hands! Forward, for vengeance and retribution, in His name and the names of our fallen comrades!
With regards to transports if I did decide to shell out for them:
1) What's a good way to get / convert Repressors? I saw some earlier, including mention of a 3d-printed top, though haven't heard anything since, and they were neat. Anything consistently serviceable?
2) Repressors vs Immolators seems like the easy choice, and Rhinos are just bad, yes?
