Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

What do you think of multiple Canoness with eviscerator? I'm talking 5-6.

I tried some Custodes yesterday and saw today someone talking about Canoness spam. I've never thought of it, but when I compare them to the Custodes, which are very good and about 56 points each with Storm Shield (factoring banner on a 10-man unit), I realized the Canoness is as good as a Custodes.
She is now 57 points with the eviscerator.
Compared to the custodes,
she the has same weapon skill of 2+ but re-rolling 1 (though -1 to hit with eviscerator),
bs2 instead of bs3 (why not add an inferno pistol, clocking at 66pts?),
strength 6 instead of 5, ap -4 instead of -3, same damage (d3), same number of attacks (4), +1attack if priest nearby
toughness 3 instead of toughness 5, 4++ instead of 3++, 3+ instead of 2+, but 5 wounds instead of 3.
can benefit from act of faith or activate one when dying with Martydom, so can heal d3 wounds from time to time
and ! she is a character, so cannot be targeted easily in a way, it compensates for her T3
has access to similar transports (not land raiders, but I would not put them in one anyway)
has access to the Blade of Admonition relic (she would cost 49pts instead of 57)
and Celestians would finally have a purpose as bodyguard!

She seems really good! At 66 points with the melta like pistol, she is one of the best non-named character of the game (infantry size). For these stats and weapons, 66 points is ridiculously low. There's nothing like it that I know of in Astartes armies.
Obvioulsy, a list including 6 of them would have to be built around them to palliate their slowness, etc.

What do you think?

This idea has been floating around a bit lately. It seems to be one of those happy accidents where the rules just favour the humble cannoness and the sisters loadout just really works. They can be a terror when fielded effectively i imagine, but a few thunder hammers can still ruin their day.

I havent heard any battle reports on the cannonni performance aside from some off hand "varying degrees of success" comments; i would be very much interested to hear a decent performance revier begore i start converting all my chansword/plamsa pistol superiors into eviscerator/inferno pistol cannonnesses

Strength 6 (s3 base *2)

Tried it. Ran 3 cannoness, 1 with BoA, 2 with evis, +priest +repentia +mistress +Imagifier +celestine with 2 Gs. Vs Deathguard zombie list in a casual game to try out our CA stuff. Was unimpressed.

Celestine, Doms and Seraphim, even non vanguarded immolators just race on up the board and start killing on turn 1. all the melee stuff only starts making contact on turn 2+.

A unit of repentia+priest+mistress did more work in the single turn they were disembarked and on the table than the 3 cannoesses did the entire game. The canoness were a lot more durable though. They all just suffer horrendously with lack of mobility.

It's a bit of a laugh for a casual game, but in my opinion with the mobility issue and the Beta Character rules they just fall far to short of the mark for 'competitive' play when there are other better options.

IMO, Sprinkle them in as an option as detachment tax demands.

if you specifically want a sisters melee unit repentia and penitent engines (i know they're ad min not sisters but they'll all ways be sisters in my heart) are about equal in there glass cannon nature (of deleting something then falling over to a stiff breeze), with repentia possibly just edging out a win in terms of mobility.

Canoness spam was something I thought about right after 8th came out and I started playing with lists (my loadout would have been power mauls and stormbolters in a Repressor).The main problem I’ve had with this concept since the beginning is them actually getting into combat where I need them.
With contact happening so quickly in 8th, and Celestine / Dominions being so mobile, the Canonesses just disappoint unless you’re willing to hold them back. If they could fly or ride with Doms without removing their Vanguard move there would be a place for them.

I think you could do something fun with 5 BSS in an Immo with a Canoness. Kind of like the extra Dialogous, but this one really makes you make a choice.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Yeah, so Brigade at 2k
Canoness with Evis/BP - 57
Canoness with Power Sword (Relic)/BP - 49
Celestine and 2G - 250

5 BSS with 3 SB - 51
5 BSS with 3 SB - 51
Repressor - 110

5 BSS with 2 SB - 49
5 BSS with 2 SB - 49
Rhino - 75

5 BSS with 2 SB - 49
Immo with Immo Fl - 103


5 BSS with 2 SB - 49
Immo with Immo Fl - 103

Imagifer - 40
Imagifer - 40
Imagifer - 40

5 Rets with 4 HB - 85
5 Rets with 4 HB - 85
5 Rets with 4 HB - 85

8 Seraph with 4 IP - 124

5 Doms with 4 Melta - 118
Repressor - 110

5 Doms with 4 Melta - 118
Repressor - 110

The Canonesses ride in the Immos and pop out early to give rerolls to the front line of attack. They are also great martyrdom fodder if not ignored and a little choppy if ignored.

I don't think the brigade is worth running still. Although it is a good concept. I think there is a potential to run Bat++ for 8 CP

With the 3 imagifiers there it cries out for more seraphim. 2 maybe even 3 squads, getting catapulted forward on turn1 with the Imagifiers staying behind to feeding the heavy bolters after that.

 Drider wrote:
I don't think the brigade is worth running still. Although it is a good concept. I think there is a potential to run Bat++ for 8 CP

With the 3 imagifiers there it cries out for more seraphim. 2 maybe even 3 squads, getting catapulted forward on turn1 with the Imagifiers staying behind to feeding the heavy bolters after that.

Well, with Celestine and 3 Imagifers, that's 1 free acts of faith, 1 on a 2+ and 3 on a 4+ (so 3 1/3) Acts of Faith on turn one. So Celestine, a Seraphim squad and a HB. Not sure I'd want to get another Seraphim in there just for that.

I have been having good luck with five canonesses. Hasn't been much going on over the holidays so nothing really new to report other than what I have before. With inferno pistols in a Repressor for getting up the board they can be a shooting threat as well while still riding around. If the targets aren't there for melee I have just left them mounted up and make sure I get within 6" of something heavy.

I have made the attempt to target big nasties with them and after the volley of inferno pistols charges with the Eviscerators tend to mop things up well enough. Certainly surprised my opponents. Top tier, no, what in a Sisters list really is? Is an InfP/Evis canoness worth more than the 4 repentia she almost costs? You bet.

You can get Celestine and twins with 6 squads of Repressor Doms, Two squads of HB Rets, an Imagifer. Then still have enough points for 5 Canonesses with IP/Evis and a Celestian bodyguard riding in a Repressor in 2k. Save one CP for Celestines re-roll and your second most aggressive unit is just begging to kick up Martyrdom. Whats not to like?

I would recommend putting an acolyte (8 points) in the repressor with the canonesses : in the event of an ''explosion'', you could sacrifice the acolyte. In an Immolator, I would put a dialogus. If he dies, you activate martyrdom.

 RenegadeKorps wrote:
What do you think of multiple Canoness with eviscerator? I'm talking 5-6.

I tried some Custodes yesterday and saw today someone talking about Canoness spam. I've never thought of it, but when I compare them to the Custodes, which are very good and about 56 points each with Storm Shield (factoring banner on a 10-man unit), I realized the Canoness is as good as a Custodes.
She is now 57 points with the eviscerator.
Compared to the custodes,
she the has same weapon skill of 2+ but re-rolling 1 (though -1 to hit with eviscerator),
bs2 instead of bs3 (why not add an inferno pistol, clocking at 66pts?),
strength 6 instead of 5, ap -4 instead of -3, same damage (d3), same number of attacks (4), +1attack if priest nearby
toughness 3 instead of toughness 5, 4++ instead of 3++, 3+ instead of 2+, but 5 wounds instead of 3.
can benefit from act of faith or activate one when dying with Martydom, so can heal d3 wounds from time to time
and ! she is a character, so cannot be targeted easily in a way, it compensates for her T3
has access to similar transports (not land raiders, but I would not put them in one anyway)
has access to the Blade of Admonition relic (she would cost 49pts instead of 57)
and Celestians would finally have a purpose as bodyguard!

She seems really good! At 66 points with the melta like pistol, she is one of the best non-named character of the game (infantry size). For these stats and weapons, 66 points is ridiculously low. There's nothing like it that I know of in Astartes armies.
Obvioulsy, a list including 6 of them would have to be built around them to palliate their slowness, etc.

What do you think?

I don't think Custodians are any good. I've used them entirely without success at anything.

From my experience, they absolutely need the transport, otherwise they get shot to pieces, and they're way too expensive to be a bullet magnet. In addition, their achievements offensively leave much to be desired. It strikes me that they are optimally equipped to fight a mirror-match against enemy heavy infantry, and 250 points is way more than I'd ever want to pay for that task.

The W3 is I think their selling point as heavy infantry, because there's a lot of D2 options out there for wrecking Terminators and Primaris-equivalent units.


Anyway, back to Canonii, I mean, sure they may be tit-for-tat better than Custodian Guard, that doesn't exactly make them amazing.

How many acts of faith are people finding ideal? I’m using 2.5 right now (Celestine, Imagifier, army wide) and it’s usually enough. Curious what others are doing.

PanzerLeader wrote:
How many acts of faith are people finding ideal? I’m using 2.5 right now (Celestine, Imagifier, army wide) and it’s usually enough. Curious what others are doing.

If I use a squad of Rets, I give them an Imagifer. I consider them as 40pt wargear for Retributors.

I currently can get 4 however I’m 5/30 on Imagifer 4+s at the moment. When it works it works great but lately it’s been a waste of 80 points.

I’m debating just taking 4 units of rets.

I haven't really been tracking them. My gut tells me it's over 50%. I know I've had one game where they went off every single time, and I've never had a game where they've not gone off once.

I run with 2.5. One Imagifer with two squads of hb Rets parked in the backfield. The army wide AoF doesn't have a tie to a specific location, so I tend to use it as the game needs it. I put the Imagifer in because I can't afford a third squad of Rets. Of course, my Canoness bus has been supplying the 1-2 martyrdom uses I can usually afford.

PanzerLeader wrote:
How many acts of faith are people finding ideal? I’m using 2.5 right now (Celestine, Imagifier, army wide) and it’s usually enough. Curious what others are doing.

2. St. Celestine and the base one.

I tried having an Imagifier in one game, but, to say the least, I was entirely unimpressed with the 40 point investment.

They are far too unpredictable and uncontrollable to be a useful element when planning. Even if it were 1/game it would be more tolerable for 40 points, because at least I'd be able to control when it triggers.

 Inquisitor Lord Katherine wrote:

PanzerLeader wrote:
How many acts of faith are people finding ideal? I’m using 2.5 right now (Celestine, Imagifier, army wide) and it’s usually enough. Curious what others are doing.

2. St. Celestine and the base one.

I tried having an Imagifier in one game, but, to say the least, I was entirely unimpressed with the 40 point investment.

They are far too unpredictable and uncontrollable to be a useful element when planning. Even if it were 1/game it would be more tolerable for 40 points, because at least I'd be able to control when it triggers.

I concur.

Yeah I've found them so - so. I'm not sold or unsold on them either way way. If I get around to it I might drop the 2 imaginers and just play 16 heavy bolters.

On paper, if it works, Imagifers are great but in my experience post CA (12ish games) when they work its devastating but most of the time I would have rather just had another squad.

My main issue with dropping them is that my current list (posted below for reference) really needs 3 acts of faith turn one to function right so I have to double down on the Imagifers.

List:

Celestine + 2 BFFS

5x Doms - 4x Meltas, Chainsword
5x Doms - 4x Meltas, Chainsword
5x Doms - 4x Meltas, Chainsword
7x Seraphim, 2x Inferno Pistols
7x Seraphim, 2x Inferno Pistols
5x Seraphim, 1x Inferno Pistol
5x Seraphim, 1x Inferno Pistol

Repressor, Heavy Flamer, Storm Bolter, Storm Bolter
Repressor, Heavy Flamer, Storm Bolter, Storm Bolter
Repressor, Heavy Flamer, Storm Bolter, Storm Bolter


Canoness, Power Sword, Storm Bolter

1x Dialgous
1x Dialgous
1x Imagifier
1x Imagifier
7x Acros
1x Priest

Rhino, Storm Bolter

Canoness

5x Rets, 4x HB
5x Rets, 4x HB
5x Rets, 4x HB

@ Rynner- I’ve found that when I’ve fielded that many Seraphim with Inferno Pistols they attract the majority, if not all, of my opponent’s small arms fire and die in short order. It might be best to either keep them back and use them as the AoFs allow or deep strike them in to avoid the possibility of being alpha struck. At least that way you won’t need the redundant Imagifiers.
As much as I want to love AoFs, even the army wide 2+ one can fail (even with a re-roll), so I tend to view it as a bonus not a necessity and make my lists with that view in mind.

 davidgr33n wrote:
@ Rynner- I’ve found that when I’ve fielded that many Seraphim with Inferno Pistols they attract the majority, if not all, of my opponent’s small arms fire and die in short order. It might be best to either keep them back and use them as the AoFs allow or deep strike them in to avoid the possibility of being alpha struck. At least that way you won’t need the redundant Imagifiers.
As much as I want to love AoFs, even the army wide 2+ one can fail (even with a re-roll), so I tend to view it as a bonus not a necessity and make my lists with that view in mind.

With a CP, I'm able to make sure that the army-wide one happens on the turn I want it to, so I can at least plan on it happening once on the turn I want it to.

Imagifiers, not so much.

 davidgr33n wrote:
@ Rynner- I’ve found that when I’ve fielded that many Seraphim with Inferno Pistols they attract the majority, if not all, of my opponent’s small arms fire and die in short order. It might be best to either keep them back and use them as the AoFs allow or deep strike them in to avoid the possibility of being alpha struck. At least that way you won’t need the redundant Imagifiers.
As much as I want to love AoFs, even the army wide 2+ one can fail (even with a re-roll), so I tend to view it as a bonus not a necessity and make my lists with that view in mind.

The smaller 5 woman squads are basically to just deep strike in on an objective and score a point or two. I expect them to die. If they live then the inferno pistols become an issue for my opponent. Lately I've been debating just taking 3 naked squads of 5. It's almost the same points cost as 2 squads of 5 with 1 model with dual inferno pistols.

You'd be surprised. The 7 woman squads live way longer than you'd expect. I wasn't kidding when I said I have yet to see a single repressor make it past turn 2. Most of opponents fire power goes into them and the crew and they tend to ignore the seraphim till its too late. If you factor in that and the new Martyrdom stratagem your seraphim can generally get away from most issues or get to where the need to be cause the most havoc while taking minimal or no damage.

The imagifers, when I can roll a 4+ can also give you amazing efficiently for your heavy bolters or just be used to go get an objective themselves. Although I still don't love them.

My first few games I ran 2 Imagifiers, then I went to 1 and it seems like the way to go. She's always hanging out with Heavy Bolter Retributors and tends to get her 4+ an average number of times. My Celestine AoF and the 2+ AoF pretty much go on Celestine and her escort of Seraphim 99% of the time until the Seraphim die, then the fighty Canoness starts to get the love.

My only problem with the Imagifier is that it's an extra drop, and that can be very significant. Putting her in a transport and jumping out turn 1 wastes her ability for a full turn.

With CA I had some free points and added in an Eversor Assassin. He's been freaking awesome, but I'm wasting the Relic on a backfield support Canoness. I could drop him, add in a 3rd Canoness and take advantage of the Relic, but Celestine and 3 Canonesses in a 2k army list feels very unfluffy. I hope we get a few more HQ options when our Codex drops sometime in 2058.

 deviantduck wrote:

PanzerLeader wrote:
How many acts of faith are people finding ideal? I’m using 2.5 right now (Celestine, Imagifier, army wide) and it’s usually enough. Curious what others are doing.

If I use a squad of Rets, I give them an Imagifer. I consider them as 40pt wargear for Retributors.

How large do you run your Retributor squads? Is it worth adding Bolter sisters to take some casualties or just pack out more heavy weapons?

Also, are Heavy Flamers actually any good or should I stick to putting them in Battle Sister Squads?

do people think that running 5-6 repressors with dominions is a viable strategy or did the point cost on repressors kind of hinder that list nowdays

IVIOOSE wrote:
do people think that running 5-6 repressors with dominions is a viable strategy or did the point cost on repressors kind of hinder that list nowdays

Yes, and I still do this, i just dont take 6-7 of them any more and now take 2 Seraphim squads and 5-6 Dom+reps.

My few other SM friends are really jealous of the Repressors, they would pay the points for them in a heart beat.

jbeil wrote:

 deviantduck wrote:

PanzerLeader wrote:
How many acts of faith are people finding ideal? I’m using 2.5 right now (Celestine, Imagifier, army wide) and it’s usually enough. Curious what others are doing.

If I use a squad of Rets, I give them an Imagifer. I consider them as 40pt wargear for Retributors.

How large do you run your Retributor squads? Is it worth adding Bolter sisters to take some casualties or just pack out more heavy weapons?

Also, are Heavy Flamers actually any good or should I stick to putting them in Battle Sister Squads?

To Panzer's original question, I jave been running 5... Celestine, army-wide, and 3 Imagifiers. With CA I might adjust given new uses for my CP...

Army-wide usually catapults Seraphim forward to pace C & BFFs. Celestine drives her own extra fight phases or falls back if she's outmatched. 1 Imagifier advances with a melee Canoness and either helps her cover ground or boosts melta output with the Doms. The other two hang back with Warlord Canoness and HB Rets.

Brigade CPs keep the Imagifiers more consistent. I've had some dud rounds, but usually the Rets make their points back. The others help with board control and TacOs. Trading the forward Imagifier for 2 Dialogus is my next experiment... or maybe just buy more HBs or PEs.

To jbeil's Qs, one extra body in the Rets, because they tend to get targeted by random missile launchers due to range and because I hit them so hard with AoFs.

Heavy flamers in a Rhino are fun against certain opponents, but are hard to position. Mine have sometimes given a ride to the melee Canoness and Imagifier. I think they're a great target for a Dialogus... if the transport gets shot out from under them after they close to flamer range, they could potentially fire on your opponent's shooting, your start of turn, and your shooting. The Dialogus makes it possible to fall them back on your opponent's Fight phase if they get charged (and who charges 4 heavy flamers?)... so yeah, I'm taking a second look at them.

when you use acts of faith, have any of you ever use the army wide one for units inside the repressors since it is just pick a unit in your army with the act of faith rule
unlike celistine or imagifier rules that have to target a unit within so far of range

IVIOOSE wrote:
when you use acts of faith, have any of you ever use the army wide one for units inside the repressors since it is just pick a unit in your army with the act of faith rule
unlike celistine or imagifier rules that have to target a unit within so far of range

It doesn't work on units inside of a transport.

What is your reasoning behind that

Units in a transport cannot be affected in any way unless specified, as per the main rule book.
The Repressor rules state specifically that units inside can shoot out, but that is all they are allowed to do and are not affected in any other way.