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 djones520 wrote:
No, I think she's going to take him down without any issue.

I even suspect she's going to use Ned's face when she does so.

Mums face to seduce/throw him off balance.

dads face to kill him

either way I expect a recreation of



but with a sharper ending, so to speak.



.. Fair play to Jamie Lannister : say what you like about him he ain't no coward.

No way I'd have charged that thing !

... Bronn who saved him yeah ?

Wonder if Jamie will be captured (again) which could reunite with him with Brienne and/or provide a way to let the Laniisters/other factions know that the dead are coming ?

Was I the only Nerd thinking 'OH NOES! MORTUL WOOOOUNDS!' when Drogon (yes, I now accept I was wrong. It's definitely Drogon) set light to the Lannisters?

 reds8n wrote:

 djones520 wrote:
No, I think she's going to take him down without any issue.

I even suspect she's going to use Ned's face when she does so.

Mums face to seduce/throw him off balance.

dads face to kill him

either way I expect a recreation of

Spoiler:

but with a sharper ending, so to speak.



.. Fair play to Jamie Lannister : say what you like about him he ain't no coward.

No way I'd have charged that thing !

... Bronn who saved him yeah ?

Wonder if Jamie will be captured (again) which could reunite with him with Brienne and/or provide a way to let the Laniisters/other factions know that the dead are coming ?

Arya could just walk into his room at night and stab him with her new dagger.

Was it Bron or the other guy who saved him before? I think Jamie will be captured and likely the only way to get Cersei to talk to anyone is holding her beloved brother hostage. Plus likely the city now has AA defences and conversely Dany knows they do.

Be interested to see the Iron Bank reacts when the threat of the dead (if they ever manage to reach the wall - seriosuly how long have they been "nearly threre") - also if the Iron bank has not left when the siege starts - will Dany and co let him go?

I guess the dead might be saying - hey hold up - lets just let the living kill each other some more - more resorces for us and less resistance - do we know how old bodies can be animated?

Mini-documentary about the effects, tech, planning etc of the battle. Honestly I wasn't expecting the giant "mechanical bull" setup for Dany, hah. The stuntmen casually talking about keeping their heartrate low so they don't accidentally breath in while on fire and crisp their own lungs is...I dunno, is there a word for "impressive but also slightly terrifying"?

great mini docu - thanks

Anyone think this seasons episodes have been very formulaic?
The last 3 have all had the first two thirds with the various factions discussing their politics/tactics/allegencies and then boom, big battle/fight for the last third or quarter.
They need to mix it up a bit I feel because its getting a bit predictable.

Honestly, I think the writing has gone noticeably downhill ever since they didn't have Martin to reference anymore. You especially notice this with Tyrion...the showrunners simply don't know how to write for him. But even beyond dialogue, a lot of the depth and sense is gone. The character motivations and schemes are straightforward and paper-thin, and characters teleport around the world just to service the plot.

Of course, what they've done is rescue the story from Martin's meandering. In doing so, they've fallen back on typical TV formulas and made it a fairly conventional TV show in a lot of ways. They just camouflage it with lots of *big stuff happening*. It's very noticeable to me anytime I watch an episode from early in the series.

Don't get me wrong...it's still enjoyable. It's just more 'turn your brain off' entertainment now than something thoughtful.

 gorgon wrote:
Honestly, I think the writing has gone noticeably downhill ever since they didn't have Martin to reference anymore. You especially notice this with Tyrion...the showrunners simply don't know how to write for him. But even beyond dialogue, a lot of the depth and sense is gone. The character motivations and schemes are straightforward and paper-thin, and characters teleport around the world just to service the plot.

Of course, what they've done is rescue the story from Martin's meandering. In doing so, they've fallen back on typical TV formulas and made it a fairly conventional TV show in a lot of ways. They just camouflage it with lots of *big stuff happening*. It's very noticeable to me anytime I watch an episode from early in the series.

Don't get me wrong...it's still enjoyable. It's just more 'turn your brain off' entertainment now than something thoughtful.

Ah I don't know - some of the dialogue has been very good this season - ranging from the Euron quotes and pokes to the death speech of grandmother Tyrel. The shows's Bron is so much more interesting than the authors.

I also thought they have been trying to have the battle scenes communicate how awful war is rather than make it all look Glorious and Noble. Kind of a theme in the show.

GRM is really just pottering about his world with his favourite characters now - I don't think he is really especially interested in finshing the story. There is little left that is thoughtful in the books sadly.

Martin's reference material goes downhill after the third book. I'd generally say the show's writing has improved once it got past the latest tomes, but has definitely had issues with the introduction of fast travel. I get it though; the series just spent too much time moving characters around without them going anywhere to keep sending characters in directions that will matter next season or 3.

The series just really need that time skip after book 3 to settle the characters and let things happen off page to ambush them later. There's a sense that for too long they've just been facing the challenges put before them without those challenges building to anything greater. Arya's training, Jon's ranging, Danny's struggles with ruling and quite a bit of the rest could have been skipped over and made it possible to reintroduce them again when they mattered.

The show has largely done well minimizing what doesn't matter, but the fault is ultimately in the source material as far as I'm concerned.

 Mr Morden wrote:

 gorgon wrote:
Honestly, I think the writing has gone noticeably downhill ever since they didn't have Martin to reference anymore. You especially notice this with Tyrion...the showrunners simply don't know how to write for him. But even beyond dialogue, a lot of the depth and sense is gone. The character motivations and schemes are straightforward and paper-thin, and characters teleport around the world just to service the plot.

Of course, what they've done is rescue the story from Martin's meandering. In doing so, they've fallen back on typical TV formulas and made it a fairly conventional TV show in a lot of ways. They just camouflage it with lots of *big stuff happening*. It's very noticeable to me anytime I watch an episode from early in the series.

Don't get me wrong...it's still enjoyable. It's just more 'turn your brain off' entertainment now than something thoughtful.

Ah I don't know - some of the dialogue has been very good this season - ranging from the Euron quotes and pokes to the death speech of grandmother Tyrel. The shows's Bron is so much more interesting than the authors.

I also thought they have been trying to have the battle scenes communicate how awful war is rather than make it all look Glorious and Noble. Kind of a theme in the show.

GRM is really just pottering about his world with his favourite characters now - I don't think he is really especially interested in finshing the story. There is little left that is thoughtful in the books sadly.

The dialogue has been ordinary and only saved by a good group of actors. Although the Euron performance is more OTT than anything William Shatner would attempt. Euron is a silly, shallow TV villain, right out of the Ramsey mold with a scenery-chewing performance to match.

Show Bronn has become some kind of superhero miles beyond what that character should or needs to be, with plot armor as thick as Jon's (who is legitimately a major character). In typical TV fashion, they took a likeable minor character and served the fans by feeding us more and more of him, until things got completely silly. He's the Fonz of GoT. Fonzie is cool. Bronn is cool too. But stop it already.

The showrunners have absolutely no idea how to write for or what to do with Tyrion, and it's probably the object lesson for their shortcomings. You can see this in how they shelved him in Meereen for an entire season and giving him little other than self-deprecating dwarf jokes. He's probably the most interesting character in the novels overall, but has only been saved by the actor in recent seasons.


@LunarSol -- I agree about the dropoff after book 3. But nothing we're seeing is as well written as the episodes up through that material. And I'm not sure if the showrunners 'improved' on any book 4 and 5 material beyond just getting through it as quickly as possible. Dorne was terrible, and didn't need to be.

Again, I still enjoy the show, but it's just brain candy now, and spends too much time trying to win Twitter with "OMG did you see what happened on GoT" comments.

 gorgon wrote:

 Mr Morden wrote:

 gorgon wrote:
Honestly, I think the writing has gone noticeably downhill ever since they didn't have Martin to reference anymore. You especially notice this with Tyrion...the showrunners simply don't know how to write for him. But even beyond dialogue, a lot of the depth and sense is gone. The character motivations and schemes are straightforward and paper-thin, and characters teleport around the world just to service the plot.

Of course, what they've done is rescue the story from Martin's meandering. In doing so, they've fallen back on typical TV formulas and made it a fairly conventional TV show in a lot of ways. They just camouflage it with lots of *big stuff happening*. It's very noticeable to me anytime I watch an episode from early in the series.

Don't get me wrong...it's still enjoyable. It's just more 'turn your brain off' entertainment now than something thoughtful.

Ah I don't know - some of the dialogue has been very good this season - ranging from the Euron quotes and pokes to the death speech of grandmother Tyrel. The shows's Bron is so much more interesting than the authors.

I also thought they have been trying to have the battle scenes communicate how awful war is rather than make it all look Glorious and Noble. Kind of a theme in the show.

GRM is really just pottering about his world with his favourite characters now - I don't think he is really especially interested in finshing the story. There is little left that is thoughtful in the books sadly.

The dialogue has been ordinary and only saved by a good group of actors. Although the Euron performance is more OTT than anything William Shatner would attempt. Euron is a silly, shallow TV villain, right out of the Ramsey mold with a scenery-chewing performance to match.

Show Bronn has become some kind of superhero miles beyond what that character should or needs to be, with plot armor as thick as Jon's (who is legitimately a major character). In typical TV fashion, they took a likeable minor character and served the fans by feeding us more and more of him, until things got completely silly. He's the Fonz of GoT. Fonzie is cool. Bronn is cool too. But stop it already.

The showrunners have absolutely no idea how to write for or what to do with Tyrion, and it's probably the object lesson for their shortcomings. You can see this in how they shelved him in Meereen for an entire season and giving him little other than self-deprecating dwarf jokes. He's probably the most interesting character in the novels overall, but has only been saved by the actor in recent seasons.


@LunarSol -- I agree about the dropoff after book 3. But nothing we're seeing is as well written as the episodes up through that material. And I'm not sure if the showrunners 'improved' on any book 4 and 5 material beyond just getting through it as quickly as possible. Dorne was terrible, and didn't need to be.

Again, I still enjoy the show, but it's just brain candy now, and spends too much time trying to win Twitter with "OMG did you see what happened on GoT" comments.

Disagree with everything in your first section.

I would say that they improved on every single element (except Dorne - is there anyone who likes Show Drone) that GRM churned out in the turgid, dismal books 4 and 5 which I got rid of as soon as I forced myself to read through them.

Meerem is far better in the Show, Dany in particular maintains her character rather than what GRM subjected her to. We don't have the many many pointless dull characters that GRM is so obsessed with in order to avoid advancing the plot.

 djones520 wrote:
The shield wall was also just 2 men deep. You're talking 400lbs of men stopping a 1500lb horse at full gallop. Even without the dragon they'd have smashed right through.

Funnily enough I suspect it might be harder to get a horse to run through fire, than to get it to break a shield wall just two men deep


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 gorgon wrote:
Honestly, I think the writing has gone noticeably downhill ever since they didn't have Martin to reference anymore. You especially notice this with Tyrion...the showrunners simply don't know how to write for him. But even beyond dialogue, a lot of the depth and sense is gone. The character motivations and schemes are straightforward and paper-thin, and characters teleport around the world just to service the plot.

Of course, what they've done is rescue the story from Martin's meandering. In doing so, they've fallen back on typical TV formulas and made it a fairly conventional TV show in a lot of ways. They just camouflage it with lots of *big stuff happening*. It's very noticeable to me anytime I watch an episode from early in the series.

Don't get me wrong...it's still enjoyable. It's just more 'turn your brain off' entertainment now than something thoughtful.

I think a lot of this is simply due to time restrictions. There's a lot they need to set up and resolve and not a lot of episodes left to do it.

The other issue is that depth and complexity, adding more elements, is something of a natural enemy of resolution. You can't keep world building at the same time you're trying to finish the story. Adding anything new at this stage, either subplot or character kills is likely to kill momentum. And anything new that does manage to advance the story towards its end, like Euron, rubs people the wrong way, it has an arbitrary feeling to it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 gorgon wrote:
Show Bronn has become some kind of superhero miles beyond what that character should or needs to be, with plot armor as thick as Jon's (who is legitimately a major character). In typical TV fashion, they took a likeable minor character and served the fans by feeding us more and more of him, until things got completely silly. He's the Fonz of GoT. Fonzie is cool. Bronn is cool too. But stop it already.

I was genuinely hoping that Bron would die. Not because I don't like him, but because I don't want yet another plot armour character. It would have felt fitting for Bron to die in that fight. Afterall the guy never had a character arc*, he's just a dude who fought and got paid for it. He would have died doing what he loved, fighting and getting paid for it.



*And a lot of the early appeal of GoT was the willingness to kill of characters with little warning, without giving any kind of satisfying end to their character arcs. But as I suspected at the time of the Red Wedding this wasn't actually true. There was always a core of characters who couldn't die, because they were too important to the story or because the creators liked them so much, same as every story. But GRR Martin just hid this through the first few books, by making us think Ned, Rob & Catelyn were the protagonists. Sure enough, the core characters in the wake of the Red Wedding are the core characters now. Around them is a list of characters that come, become essential for a time before getting knocked off as well, but the core cast now have plot armour, surviving impossible things often by last second deus ex, being brought back from the dead etc. The same old stuff that's always used in fantasy to keep the core characters alive.

 Mr Morden wrote:
Meerem is far better in the Show, Dany in particular maintains her character rather than what GRM subjected her to. We don't have the many many pointless dull characters that GRM is so obsessed with in order to avoid advancing the plot.

Meereen isn't very interesting in either medium. Daenerys is just different in the books. You're fixated on the character, so you like the show's more likeable interpretation. And the rest is again about streamlining in the name of plot advancement.

I just don't think these writers can do superior work with this story without Martin giving them the road map. Their adaptation of the early books was excellent. Lately it's been a few notches below that, although it's an entertaining brain candy exercise, as I said.

 sebster wrote:
*And a lot of the early appeal of GoT was the willingness to kill of characters with little warning, without giving any kind of satisfying end to their character arcs. But as I suspected at the time of the Red Wedding this wasn't actually true. There was always a core of characters who couldn't die, because they were too important to the story or because the creators liked them so much, same as every story. But GRR Martin just hid this through the first few books, by making us think Ned, Rob & Catelyn were the protagonists. Sure enough, the core characters in the wake of the Red Wedding are the core characters now. Around them is a list of characters that come, become essential for a time before getting knocked off as well, but the core cast now have plot armour, surviving impossible things often by last second deus ex, being brought back from the dead etc. The same old stuff that's always used in fantasy to keep the core characters alive.

I think you're right, although I'd add that the show has gone all-in on plot armor in the name of dramatic beats rather than just keeping key characters out of harm's way in a sensible fashion.

When you said "same old stuff", that got me thinking that a simpler summary of my criticism is that it's increasingly become a fairly conventional TV show telling a fairly conventional fantasy story. The cast is really good, and it's very well polished. But it is what it is, and we're almost certainly headed toward a fairly conventional ending.

On the flip side, if GRRM miraculously manages to finish ASOIAF, I don't think it's going to have a conventional ending. I'm not even sure that the Others are evil, or that the Night King will emerge and fill the 'dark lord' role. But we're hip-deep in those old fantasy tropes in the show.

 gorgon wrote:
Honestly, I think the writing has gone noticeably downhill ever since they didn't have Martin to reference anymore. You especially notice this with Tyrion...the showrunners simply don't know how to write for him. But even beyond dialogue, a lot of the depth and sense is gone. The character motivations and schemes are straightforward and paper-thin, and characters teleport around the world just to service the plot.

Of course, what they've done is rescue the story from Martin's meandering. In doing so, they've fallen back on typical TV formulas and made it a fairly conventional TV show in a lot of ways. They just camouflage it with lots of *big stuff happening*. It's very noticeable to me anytime I watch an episode from early in the series.

Don't get me wrong...it's still enjoyable. It's just more 'turn your brain off' entertainment now than something thoughtful.

You're correct. It jumped the shark with the first scene of season seven, Arya disguised as Walder Frey giving a condescending speech before they all drank poison and died was pure cheese. It was pushing Matt Ward levels of OTT.

The show is basically coasting off the strength of previous scenes and everyone's desire to see the next big battle. Should the books ever be released I think they'll be markedly better.

Edit: Euron is just awful. It doesn't help that his character is a weird mixture of book Euron and Victarion. His character is resoundingly obnoxious and all of his action scenes have stunk of pure plot contrivance. How does he manage to locate Dany's fleet in the middle of the night and ram into his sister's ship perfectly? And the scene before that included the worst line of dialogue in the show..."a foreign invasion is underway"...just really?

 gorgon wrote:
I think you're right, although I'd add that the show has gone all-in on plot armor in the name of dramatic beats rather than just keeping key characters out of harm's way in a sensible fashion.

When you said "same old stuff", that got me thinking that a simpler summary of my criticism is that it's increasingly become a fairly conventional TV show telling a fairly conventional fantasy story. The cast is really good, and it's very well polished. But it is what it is, and we're almost certainly headed toward a fairly conventional ending.

On the flip side, if GRRM miraculously manages to finish ASOIAF, I don't think it's going to have a conventional ending. I'm not even sure that the Others are evil, or that the Night King will emerge and fill the 'dark lord' role. But we're hip-deep in those old fantasy tropes in the show.

I agree about plot armour being used in place of simple risk avoidance. I guess part of this comes down to the need in TV of having key characters present in the big set pieces. In a book you can just have a character learn of the destruction of Hardhome by correspondence, but in TV if you're going to build a wildling town and organise a thousand extras in a battle scene, then you can't put a minor character there, you need Jon Snow in the scene. Which means it becomes life and death event that Jon survived, in addition to all the others survived by the rest of the favourite characters.

But I'm not sure we're heading towards a conventional ending, nor am I sure the ending will differ that significantly from the books. I could be wrong, but I'd be very surprised if it was as simple as Jon or Daenerys being revealed as the prince who was promised, defeating the Night King and that's it. Exactly how they'll change that we'll see.

I could be wrong of course, but I suspect the most likely thing at this point is that Azor Ahai will end up being a lot less of a saviour than people assume.

But I'm not sure we're heading towards a conventional ending, nor am I sure the ending will differ that significantly from the books. I could be wrong, but I'd be very surprised if it was as simple as Jon or Daenerys being revealed as the prince who was promised, defeating the Night King and that's it. Exactly how they'll change that we'll see.

I hope you are right, a conventional ending would be a bit of a let down for an unconventional series. I don't know how it would happen but how cool would it be if Littlefinger ended up on the Iron Throne? Then the series would end with a final shot of his smirking face. Now that would be an ending I could get on board with!

I am puzzled why everyone seems to care about this 'Prince that was Promised' rubbish, an ancient prophecy about a chosen one who saves the day is the most boring trope in the book!
Luckily it hasn't taken over the story like it did in Battlestar Gallactica, long may that continue.

 sebster wrote:

 gorgon wrote:
I think you're right, although I'd add that the show has gone all-in on plot armor in the name of dramatic beats rather than just keeping key characters out of harm's way in a sensible fashion.

When you said "same old stuff", that got me thinking that a simpler summary of my criticism is that it's increasingly become a fairly conventional TV show telling a fairly conventional fantasy story. The cast is really good, and it's very well polished. But it is what it is, and we're almost certainly headed toward a fairly conventional ending.

On the flip side, if GRRM miraculously manages to finish ASOIAF, I don't think it's going to have a conventional ending. I'm not even sure that the Others are evil, or that the Night King will emerge and fill the 'dark lord' role. But we're hip-deep in those old fantasy tropes in the show.

I agree about plot armour being used in place of simple risk avoidance. I guess part of this comes down to the need in TV of having key characters present in the big set pieces. In a book you can just have a character learn of the destruction of Hardhome by correspondence, but in TV if you're going to build a wildling town and organise a thousand extras in a battle scene, then you can't put a minor character there, you need Jon Snow in the scene. Which means it becomes life and death event that Jon survived, in addition to all the others survived by the rest of the favourite characters.

But I'm not sure we're heading towards a conventional ending, nor am I sure the ending will differ that significantly from the books. I could be wrong, but I'd be very surprised if it was as simple as Jon or Daenerys being revealed as the prince who was promised, defeating the Night King and that's it. Exactly how they'll change that we'll see.

I could be wrong of course, but I suspect the most likely thing at this point is that Azor Ahai will end up being a lot less of a saviour than people assume.

I dunno. Maybe.

I'm just not sure that the show has laid the same groundwork as the books in building to an unconventional ending. Maybe they'll get there through lots of Bran visions and exposition?

It does give the horrible impression of heading towards a conventional ending - especially with how the sides have aligned. We're supposed to boo and hiss when we see Cersei and Euron are together, we're supposed to get all excited when we see Daenerys and Jon side by side. About the only people on the Lannister side who people could feel affection for are Jamie and Bronn and it wouldn't be no difficulty to write something bland that either kills them in a noble and deserving fashion, have them change sides or survive the eventual cull.

For a program that sold itself on almost everyone being a bunch of murdering gits who are out for power, it is far too easy to say that there is now a definite good and bad side.

Is it wrong that I do not care a jot about the A characters? If Jon Snow drops dead in the next episode I'll be happy. I'm more interested in what happens to the B group - Bronn, Jorah, Hound, Baelish, Brienne and the like.

 Kroem wrote:

But I'm not sure we're heading towards a conventional ending, nor am I sure the ending will differ that significantly from the books. I could be wrong, but I'd be very surprised if it was as simple as Jon or Daenerys being revealed as the prince who was promised, defeating the Night King and that's it. Exactly how they'll change that we'll see.

I hope you are right, a conventional ending would be a bit of a let down for an unconventional series. I don't know how it would happen but how cool would it be if Littlefinger ended up on the Iron Throne? Then the series would end with a final shot of his smirking face. Now that would be an ending I could get on board with!

I am puzzled why everyone seems to care about this 'Prince that was Promised' rubbish, an ancient prophecy about a chosen one who saves the day is the most boring trope in the book!
Luckily it hasn't taken over the story like it did in Battlestar Gallactica, long may that continue.

A "coventional" ending would be fine - I honestly can't see a - "yeah well the undead pull thier fingers out of their asses and actually win" going down with the audience - be like filming Stormbringer by Michael Moorcock or many other novels without a happy ending.

Agree re the prophercy nonsense- its a vaugue propercy spouted by horribily unrelaible people to further their own aims - I hope it proves to be irrelvant although it will likely turn out to be fat Sam given how much of hard on GRM has for that character. I always thought GRm put it in so he could show how stupid it is believe in such rubbish

Kroem wrote:I am puzzled why everyone seems to care about this 'Prince that was Promised' rubbish, an ancient prophecy about a chosen one who saves the day is the most boring trope in the book!

The series/books have shown, like with the red comet, that anything can have multiple but wrong/irrelevant explanations or interpretations for a completely normal but in-universe unexplainable phenomenon. I think it's similar with their magic, it just exists in this universe and some people can use it (for whatever reason) and they have ridiculous rituals surrounding it (religions, greenseer stuff,…) but it's just how we had alchemy in this world and stumbled around in the dark with tiny successes now and then before we developed chemistry and made useful progress.

In the same way everybody cares about this prophecy because it's an important part of the in-universe mythology and they build rituals around it (or used it to manipulate people and so the prophecy grew in power). My guess is that the ending will be conventional in that mankind survives but that's about it. Maybe someone's actions will map onto the prophecy and that person will be proclaimed as the 'Prince that was Promised' but that will be just coincidental.

Anyone else annoyed that it seems the show is going to ignore the Maester Conspiracy?

 sebster wrote:

 djones520 wrote:
The shield wall was also just 2 men deep. You're talking 400lbs of men stopping a 1500lb horse at full gallop. Even without the dragon they'd have smashed right through.

Funnily enough I suspect it might be harder to get a horse to run through fire, than to get it to break a shield wall just two men deep

One of my work friends just mentioned this to me about 2 hours ago: that horses won't actually charge a shield line unless there is a horse-sized hole for them to run through, and they certainly wouldn't jump through fire 8 feet high.

I assumed the latter was artistic license, but I genuinely didn't know the former was.

 Kroem wrote:
I hope you are right, a conventional ending would be a bit of a let down for an unconventional series. I don't know how it would happen but how cool would it be if Littlefinger ended up on the Iron Throne? Then the series would end with a final shot of his smirking face. Now that would be an ending I could get on board with!

I don't know about anyone else, but that'd be about the worst ending I could imagine. Of all the characters who've had heaven and earth moved just so they could stay alive, none is more obvious than Littlefinger. I like him early on, but his many betrayals have been so obvious that there's no way he wouldn't have been uncovered and put to the sword, except author fiat.

The only Littlefinger scene I've enjoyed in a long time was a couple of episodes ago, when he was giving a smug sermon about seeing every possible outcome, only to be interrupted by Bran returning to Winterfell - didn't see that coming did you you smug prat

I am puzzled why everyone seems to care about this 'Prince that was Promised' rubbish, an ancient prophecy about a chosen one who saves the day is the most boring trope in the book!
Luckily it hasn't taken over the story like it did in Battlestar Gallactica, long may that continue.

I'm not a fan of relying on prophecy, it is almost always lazy writing. But one of the key ideas from the start was taking standard fantasy tropes and turning them on their head. The villain who slayed the king he was sworn to protect... was doing the right thing. The son taking up arms to avenge his father... made most of the same mistakes and was betrayed and killed much like his father. And so on.

The prophecy has been an integral part of the plot line for ASOIF throughout, and so far the way its been addressed has been interesting so far, so I think it is fairly likely that it will be both key to resolution, and come with a final twist. Of course this doesn't mean this final twist will be good or that everyone will like it, they're hard to do, but I think it's pretty likely there'll be at least one last thing in the way the prophecy plays out.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 gorgon wrote:
I dunno. Maybe.

I'm just not sure that the show has laid the same groundwork as the books in building to an unconventional ending. Maybe they'll get there through lots of Bran visions and exposition?

They've done a lot of work laying the grounds for misinterpreting prophecy. Melisandre was shown to have been wildly wrong about Stannis. There's been a bunch of stuff showing how language changes lead to misinterpretation. And Danaerys was shown re-interpreting the prophecy entirely driven by what she wants it to mean. And of course, the Red Priestesses are as evil as anyone else in the show, which is a pretty big hint that there's something very dark at the centre of the prophecy.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Henry wrote:
It does give the horrible impression of heading towards a conventional ending - especially with how the sides have aligned. We're supposed to boo and hiss when we see Cersei and Euron are together, we're supposed to get all excited when we see Daenerys and Jon side by side.

If it was that simple they wouldn't have spent so much focus in the last battle on the gruesome fates of so many Lannister soldiers. They weren't just killed in noble battle, they were shown cooking in their armour, running in to the water. They were shown being hacked down as they fled the onslaught. We were shown some of this through Tyrion's eyes. It was clear that the battle was to show a victory, but not a triumph.

For a program that sold itself on almost everyone being a bunch of murdering gits who are out for power, it is far too easy to say that there is now a definite good and bad side.

It was never about everyone being murdering gits. There were always more noble, principled characters, pure villains, and plenty in between. What's changed is a that the good and bad characters were mixed in together, Tyrion stayed with the Lannisters for a long time despite knowing the character of his family, for instance. Now the good and bad have largely formed in to clear camps, more or less.

Is it wrong that I do not care a jot about the A characters? If Jon Snow drops dead in the next episode I'll be happy. I'm more interested in what happens to the B group - Bronn, Jorah, Hound, Baelish, Brienne and the like.

Jon's a pretty dull character, he does nothing but earnestly plea to others about how bad the White Walkers are. But the other A characters, Cersei, Danaerys, they're pretty interesting. I think the B list is similarly mixed - Jorah, the Hound, Brienne, they're great. But Baelish has been insufferable for years, and Bronn is long overdue for death.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ouze wrote:
One of my work friends just mentioned this to me about 2 hours ago: that horses won't actually charge a shield line unless there is a horse-sized hole for them to run through, and they certainly wouldn't jump through fire 8 feet high.

I assumed the latter was artistic license, but I genuinely didn't know the former was.

Yeah, I thought a shallow wall wouldn't stop a horse breaking through. Thinking about it that assumption by me was pretty silly - a horse couldn't assess the depth of a line, it'd just see a solid object and not want to crash through it

Pretty much what led to the downfall of chariots. They learned of you put one hole in your line the horse will run thru it, then you have another line behind that hole so the horse stops, and now the first line guts the guys driving the chariot from the sides/rear.

I'm less afraid of a conventional ending rooted in well written foreshadowing (that we've had too much time to decipher) and way more afraid of a "bet you didn't see this coming" Mass Effect 3 style Catalyst ending in an attempt to try and be surprising.

 sebster wrote:
Wrote loads of insightful and accurate stuff all of which I agree with

 trexmeyer wrote:
Anyone else annoyed that it seems the show is going to ignore the Maester Conspiracy?

nope - no need for it, no time for it. Ignoring it is for the best - like they should have with Dorne.

Mario wrote:

Kroem wrote:I am puzzled why everyone seems to care about this 'Prince that was Promised' rubbish, an ancient prophecy about a chosen one who saves the day is the most boring trope in the book!

The series/books have shown, like with the red comet, that anything can have multiple but wrong/irrelevant explanations or interpretations for a completely normal but in-universe unexplainable phenomenon. I think it's similar with their magic, it just exists in this universe and some people can use it (for whatever reason) and they have ridiculous rituals surrounding it (religions, greenseer stuff,…) but it's just how we had alchemy in this world and stumbled around in the dark with tiny successes now and then before we developed chemistry and made useful progress.

In the same way everybody cares about this prophecy because it's an important part of the in-universe mythology and they build rituals around it (or used it to manipulate people and so the prophecy grew in power). My guess is that the ending will be conventional in that mankind survives but that's about it. Maybe someone's actions will map onto the prophecy and that person will be proclaimed as the 'Prince that was Promised' but that will be just coincidental.

Sure, Martin plays with levels of meaning throughout the books. Heck, people have been kicking around the meaning of the title of the series for years now. And there are plenty of valid theories, supported by the fact that Martin repeats ice and fire themes many times and in many ways. And then you have all the stories and text snippets that may or may not be full of meaning.
But most of that depth has been absent in the show, especially in recent seasons. I don't see a lot of reason to think that we're headed for an ending that is anything other than easily digestible for the masses. The show has gone very straight-line and conventional, with good and bad guys, and lots of 'splosions.

*Two years ago* Martin wrote this blog post explaining that the book and show storylines are diverging, and that the gap will continue to widen. But some of you think it all ends more or less the same? I don't see how, especially since Martin hasn't written HIS ending yet.

http://grrm.livejournal.com/427713.html

 gorgon wrote:


But most of that depth has been absent in the show, especially in recent seasons. I don't see a lot of reason to think that we're headed for an ending that is anything other than easily digestible for the masses. The show has gone very straight-line and conventional, with good and bad guys, and lots of 'splosions.

Completely agree. This season has gotten pretty bad in terms of being predictable and formulaic. Every episode is just another pendulum swing, it's like a tennis volley between the "good" side and the "bad" side. Things are looking good for Dany's faction, she's building up a strong alliance to take out Cersei and the Lannisters' power and then the next episode Cersei outsmarts Dany, breaks up the alliance and regains the upper hand, then the next episode Dany strikes back with dragon power, wipes out a good chunk of the Lannister's army and puts Cersei back on the defensive. I'm sure this week's episode will end on a negative for Dany's team because last episode ended on a high note for them.

At least in the beginning of the series, even if you had read the books you got to watch events play out over multiple episodes instead of this simplistic formula. Everything just goes back and forth except the Night King keeps on advancing in a nigh unstoppable manner but he's moving incredibly slowly, especially compared to how now the main characters zip around Westeros every episode.

You know, if I were Tyrion, the first thing I would do is tell that Dothraki next to me to send a message to the queen that the guy who went into the water is very important and should be retrieved at all costs.
I'm sure having leverage over Cersei would be a good thing.

That leverage didn't exactly help the Starks much....