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 Ventus wrote:

Spoiler:

Diversity

Wilfully ignoring that GW cannot retcon SMs to be female without huge fallout and it's perfectly possible to paint these models whichever way you want.
And as for my local GW, yes it's tiny with only two tables, but the people there are great fun and it's open 10 till 6 on most days, and it turns over £140,000 a year which after running costs of £90,000 makes it profitable enough.

They can retcon it, and quite easily.

We know The Legionnes Astartes were a stopgap measure after the Primarch's disappeared.

It's very likely the whole 'male genome' thing was a simple matter of expediency. He needed his Warriors, and needed them now. No time to waste.

10,000 years later, who's to say Cawl doesn't have the next volume in 'Emperor Professor Frank 'N' Furter's Make You A Man Plan' series 'Emperor Professor Frank 'N' Furter's Make You A Woman'.

And you say huge fallout....amongst people who are pretty fragile anyway, so I say go for it.

but remember Doc, a Magic Space Wizard can't make lady Marines cos made up science

Curses! Foiled again by impeccable logic.

Yeah, the basic line has always been:

1. There are no female space marines.
2. It is a scientific impossibility...
3. ... right up until GW decides it isn't.

Indeed.

It's never been a case of 'it's not at all possible to create Space Marines from wimmins evar', so much as 'the current geneseed is keyed to the male chromosomes'.

That's two very different things.

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

It's very likely the whole 'male genome' thing was a simple matter of expediency. He needed his Warriors, and needed them now. No time to waste.

If it's a matter of expediency and the emps could use both men and women, why limit yourself, more meat for the meat grinder and all that.
And it's not, "ew women," the fallout would be, "GW clearly doesn't respect long established fluff, even quite central fluff, and what does that mean for the rest of the setting?"

Also where does it say this?

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
It's never been a case of 'it's not at all possible to create Space Marines from wimmins evar', so much as 'the current geneseed is keyed to the male chromosomes'.

As far as I've been aware it has always been 'it's not at all possible to create Space Marines from wimmins evar'. Not saying I'm right i's just what I've understood the fluff to be since I got into 40k.

Anyone who has read the codices since 5th edition already knows GW has no respect for long-established fluff. besides, the introduction of Primaris marines is an obvious out if GW wants one. "Hey guys! I put a woman in the Primaris machine for science and giggles, and it still worked. She's a Space Marine now!"

Not that I feel GW needs to take such a tack. If they released SOB or female imperial guard or even a line of Inquisitors with henchpeople, that would certainly help reduce pressure on the female space marines front.

 CREEEEEEEEED wrote:

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:

It's very likely the whole 'male genome' thing was a simple matter of expediency. He needed his Warriors, and needed them now. No time to waste.

If it's a matter of expediency and the emps could use both men and women, why limit yourself, more meat for the meat grinder and all that.
And it's not, "ew women," the fallout would be, "GW clearly doesn't respect long established fluff, even quite central fluff, and what does that mean for the rest of the setting?"

Also where does it say this?

 Mad Doc Grotsnik wrote:
It's never been a case of 'it's not at all possible to create Space Marines from wimmins evar', so much as 'the current geneseed is keyed to the male chromosomes'.

As far as I've been aware it has always been 'it's not at all possible to create Space Marines from wimmins evar'. Not saying I'm right i's just what I've understood the fluff to be since I got into 40k.

The background as stands is that the existing geneseed is keyed solely to the male chromosome. Why, to the best of my knowledge, has never really been covered.

Hypothetical? Emperor so far as we know is male. Primarchs have bits of him, Geneseed are bits of Primarch. Semi-clone, easier to stick with the same chromosomes for the 'first run'.

But that doesn't mean geneseed can't be treated or improved to be implanted in either gender. Look at the work Cawl has done. He's not only purified geneseed to rid it of flaws there since creation but has also created new organs.

It ain't impossible. And seemingly, it never actually has been. They've just not done it.

This heretofore largely civil and on topic thread isn't going to descend into another Femarines thread.

Is it?

More a 'why are you so precious about the background? It's not like it's been subject to frequent changes ever since it set out'

Now tie that back into "Smoke and Mirrors? Or has GW learned their lesson?" and you'll be into a winner!

 Azreal13 wrote:
Now tie that back into "Smoke and Mirrors? Or has GW learned their lesson?" and you'll be into a winner!

GW do should femarines to encourage more females to play war doolies cos girls like girl things and that, (and now I've confused myself about progressive / regressive)

'Innit.

 Azreal13 wrote:
Now tie that back into "Smoke and Mirrors? Or has GW learned their lesson?" and you'll be into a winner!

Has GW improved at drawing in people other than pasty anglo manchildren and making a more wide ranging game that doesn't appeal only to them, or are they ready to do a dark eldar slaves part two electric barely clothed boogallo?

(I'm not sure what I just wrote but I feel like I need to go to confession and I'm not even Catholic.)

 Azreal13 wrote:
Now tie that back into "Smoke and Mirrors? Or has GW learned their lesson?" and you'll be into a winner!

I for one want to know if GW's new focus on cultural diversity and social reform in its fictional dystopian game universes is merely an act, or if they actually believe in the war against unequality and neo-facism.

 Ventus wrote:
I for one want to know if GW's new focus on cultural diversity ... is merely an act...

To the Chaos Gods I pray it is...

 CREEEEEEEEED wrote:

Wilfully ignoring that GW cannot retcon SMs to be female without huge fallout and it's perfectly possible to paint these models whichever way you want.

It's been happy to retcon in Centurians, Primaris Marines and MurderFang McMurder-Murder. Some female Space Fantasy Soldiers should be pretty easy to manage. As mentioned, they don't need to be Astartes as such. SoB, or enhanced Militarum would presumably do, and may be easier to look a bit more feminine.

Does GW have anyone that can sculpt a human looking human at the moment?

 Ventus wrote:

 Azreal13 wrote:
Now tie that back into "Smoke and Mirrors? Or has GW learned their lesson?" and you'll be into a winner!

I for one want to know if GW's new focus on cultural diversity and social reform in its fictional dystopian game universes is merely an act, or if they actually believe in the war against unequality and neo-facism.

The background for AoS is more representative than Warhammer. Mind you, AoS isn't set in Fictional Germany, so that's an awful lot easier.

First Stormcast we saw sans skidlid had dark skin (WW Exclusive model), and the background has all sorts - including a decent stab at a gender fluid character in 'Godless'.

Be fair, one of their oldest characters has been gender fluid in the form of Slaneesh.

A God being genderless/both is one thing. But a mortal (albeit Slaaneshi cultist) is another.

Was handled quite nicely as well. Was an aspect of the character, without being their defining feature.

 Azreal13 wrote:
This heretofore largely civil and on topic thread isn't going to descend into another Femarines thread.

Is it?

No, it isn't.

Because that's not the topic, and this is a not subtle at all reminder to get back on topic and stick to it.

I am all for diversity.
Diversity of ideas is just as important as diversity of physical differences.

I would like the ideas of people who care about game play to be just as valid , as those who are only interested in the minatures.

It sort of proved my point that GW are mainly appealing to minature collectors, as this thread sort of derailed into a conversation about minature options.

Would anyone be interested in discussing the core issues with he 40k game play.(That still have remained untouched for 5 editions and 19 years of 40k.)

As it is in this area GW seem to have learned nothing.IMO.

I think 8th has shown that they want to care about game play and balance (they're definitely trying) but has highlighted, yet again, that they simply do not have game designers that are up to the job.

 Scott-S6 wrote:
I think 8th has shown that they want to care about game play and balance (they're definitely trying) but has highlighted, yet again, that they simply do not have game designers that are up to the job.

that's my take too, they have a good idea (ie removing templates) but bogde the fix by falling back on D6 ideas, and then double down trying to fix that with double tap rules involving more dice, why not give the weapons fixed values with free mortal wounds on high rolls, it just smacks of not trying

Its why I'm not touching Shadespire, they are touting it as 'serious competitive', but it'll turn out like all those 90's/00's subpar Magic CCG knockoffs

@Scott-S6.
Even when they had good game designers, GW corporate managers over ruled them.

GW corporate changed the game size from large skirmish game to battle game at the 11th hour for 3rd ed 40k. (According to Rick Priestley.)And the game play was compromised.

GW over ruled the game devs every time they tried to over haul the core rules ,to correct the oversights that crept in in 3rd ed.(Until 7th ed when game devs just gave up , apparently.)

40k 8th edition appears to have followed the same design brief as 3rd ed.''Make it look simple and sell more minatures...''

Unfortunately the same mistakes have been made IMO.
The core rules are not robust enough to cover the wide diversity of units and tactics that people expect to be in a game like 40k.
And so before too long the core rules will be buried under layers of poorly explained special rules.

I am not advocating for complicated rules, just straightforward rules that cover the expected/intended game play elegantly and efficiently.(EG the way good game companies develop rules. )

Diversity could be the hill Gw dies on, look at marvel comics their sales are worse now than after the 90's crash, this is a time with three movies a year and multiple TV shows but they can barely sell 40k copies of their lead titles, comic shops are closing down as a result.

People don't like Sjw's or the things they push and Gw adopting that will end up the same way.

I'm all for more female models where appropriate like sob, guard and eldar but if they start pushing regressive nonsense I'll boycott all their products, no end of other games to play.

hobojebus wrote:
Diversity could be the hill Gw dies on, look at marvel comics their sales are worse now than after the 90's crash, this is a time with three movies a year and multiple TV shows but they can barely sell 40k copies of their lead titles, comic shops are closing down as a result.

People don't like Sjw's or the things they push and Gw adopting that will end up the same way.

I'm all for more female models where appropriate like sob, guard and eldar but if they start pushing regressive nonsense I'll boycott all their products, no end of other games to play.

[MOD EDIT - RULE #1 - Alpharius]

 Corrode wrote:

hobojebus wrote:
Diversity could be the hill Gw dies on, look at marvel comics their sales are worse now than after the 90's crash, this is a time with three movies a year and multiple TV shows but they can barely sell 40k copies of their lead titles, comic shops are closing down as a result.

People don't like Sjw's or the things they push and Gw adopting that will end up the same way.

I'm all for more female models where appropriate like sob, guard and eldar but if they start pushing regressive nonsense I'll boycott all their products, no end of other games to play.

[MOD EDIT - RULE #1 - Alpharius]

Classy really classy

If 8th turn out as unbalanced as 6th and 7th, that might kill it for many people, and it's starting to look that way.
Has GW learned anything, yes throw your customers a few bones, and they'll come running back tails wagging.

We can well do without the digs at other posters.