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 Selym wrote:
It would not. Eldar mechanics are Bonesingers, who use their psychic abilities to shape the Wraithbone. However, they take centuries to train, and the Eldar are extremely reluctant to take them anywhere outside of a Craftworld.

Okay. And that relates to DE Haemonculi how exactly?

 MagicJuggler wrote:

Think not of it as failure but a temporary setback. When all else fails, torture more victims!

 MagicJuggler wrote:

The alternate idea I had been experimenting with for my "40k rewrite" was based on the 5e fluff for the Talos. Not only was the Talos used as a guardian, but as a mobile laboratory, with the ability to distill its victims into a variety of raw materials which could be used for a variety of purposes. Given that the Haemonculi are less conventional scientists, and more akin to an exaggerated medieval alchemist (transmutation of the outside world=corresponding transmutation of the soul), one idea I was experimenting with (based on the idea that you could use datacards ala WMH to track wounds, etc) was:

-When a Talos destroys an enemy unit, place that enemy unit's datacard underneath the datacard of the Talos that slew it. A Talos may store one Datacard in this manner. At any time, the Talos may discard this card in order to invoke the "essence" of that unit: You may select any and all of the model's Personal USRs on that datacard; for the remainder of the player turn, the Talos has Aura(6", friendly Coven units)[The selected USRs].

And then you could adjust such rules for 8e to use a single "bespoke" rule. Thus, if a Talos was able to kill an Avatar of Khaine (against all odds), it would grant an aura of fire immunity, etc. The idea would need playtesting for balance, but the idea is to emphasize the pseudo-mystic process by which the Haemonculi operate.

That's interesting, but might be a bit of a pain to balance. I wonder if it would be simpler to allow the Talos to turn units it killed into Wracks (adding them to existing Wrack units nearby). Maybe it could add to a Grotesque unit if it kills a larger model.

Out of interest, is there a reason you think the Talos is better for this role than the Chronos?

jade_angel wrote:

Spoiler:

 Galef wrote:

jade_angel wrote:
Wave Serpent: drop down to W10, keep the shield, price stays the same.
Falcon: Increase to W13, drop the price to match the Serpent.

This makes absolutely no sense. The Serpent is physically bigger than the other Grav-tanks thanks to the rear extension piece that comes on the sprue specific to the Serpent
The Serpent has 1 more wound than the other tanks for this exact reason

If you want the other tanks to have a reason to be taken over the Serpent, than return Holo-fields to the Falcon/Prism/Spinner as a built-in ability (no additional points cost)
The Serpent can have its Shield, the others can have a 5++ against shooting.
That would be a start, at least

-

Ok, yeah, that does make more sense. My thought here is that the Wave Serpent is both a better tank and a better transport than the Falcon right now, and, to boot it's also cheaper. There should be a tradeoff, and if one should be just better, it should be the more expensive model that uses the heavy support slot, not the cheaper DT. It's an internal balance problem.

I agree the internal balance is off. An easy fix is to keep that profiles the same, but add Holo-fields to all the Grav tanks (except the Serpent) at no additional cost. Let's make it a 4++ against shooting like the Harlequins, and keep all the points costs the same. Now you have a reason to take a Falcon as its durability is arguably as good as the Serpent's.

-

Vipoid wrote:That's interesting, but might be a bit of a pain to balance. I wonder if it would be simpler to allow the Talos to turn units it killed into Wracks (adding them to existing Wrack units nearby). Maybe it could add to a Grotesque unit if it kills a larger model. 

Out of interest, is there a reason you think the Talos is better for this role than the Chronos?

From a fluff perspective, I'm iffier on the "add new models/zombie" mechanic, since Wracks are formally called Haemacolytes and are willing victims that hope to one day become Haemonculi themselves, while the assorted lobotomies/osseovirals/neuroconditionings needed for Grotesques will take more time to make than the scope of a single battle! The Chronos is already a specialist tool, and would probably fit the "resurrection" mechanic better.

Truth be told, I do wish GW had a proper "open playtesting" process for their units, like how PP finally got off their feet and now does CiD. That way, they could create units with exotic and open-ended powers (like Blood Angel Furioso Dreads with Magna-Grappels, etc), people could run games and report idiosyncracies that might come up, and tradeoffs could be made between "adding exceptions/interactions", or narrowing the scope of said powers.

As an example, in the homebrew Wrath of Magnus rewrite I did for 7e, I rewrote the War Cabal Formation to allow 1-3 Forge/Maulerfiends, with a Command Benefit being that a Psyker from that Formation could use a Forge/Maulerfiend within 9" a from the *same* formation as the "point of origin" for a Psychic Power; a Fiend could only be used as the "point of origin" for one power per turn. I wrote in the commentary "I left this open-ended because I want to see what broken combos could come out of this."

Rather than units having one situational niche (The Haemonculi gives a +1 PFP bubble to units from the same <Coven> or so), I feel these types of games become more mentally rewarding when a unit's options are "loose and open" and promote emergent tactics.

 MagicJuggler wrote:

From a fluff perspective, I'm iffier on the "add new models/zombie" mechanic, since Wracks are formally called Haemacolytes and are willing victims that hope to one day become Haemonculi themselves

Is this a recent change? I could have sworn Wracks used to be victims - often people who had annoyed the Haemonculus in some way - and who had subsequently been turned into subservient Wracks as a punishment. I certainly don't remember it ever being regarded as a reward - quite the opposite in fact.

 MagicJuggler wrote:

Truth be told, I do wish GW had a proper "open playtesting" process for their units, like how PP finally got off their feet and now does CiD. That way, they could create units with exotic and open-ended powers (like Blood Angel Furioso Dreads with Magna-Grappels, etc), people could run games and report idiosyncracies that might come up, and tradeoffs could be made between "adding exceptions/interactions", or narrowing the scope of said powers.

As an example, in the homebrew Wrath of Magnus rewrite I did for 7e, I rewrote the War Cabal Formation to allow 1-3 Forge/Maulerfiends, with a Command Benefit being that a Psyker from that Formation could use a Forge/Maulerfiend within 9" a from the *same* formation as the "point of origin" for a Psychic Power; a Fiend could only be used as the "point of origin" for one power per turn. I wrote in the commentary "I left this open-ended because I want to see what broken combos could come out of this."

Rather than units having one situational niche (The Haemonculi gives a +1 PFP bubble to units from the same <Coven> or so), I feel these types of games become more mentally rewarding when a unit's options are "loose and open" and promote emergent tactics.

I agree. I also think that the current model is rather bland. I mean the Haemonculus ability might be relatively strong but it's also really boring. At least with a healing ability you'd have something to do.

 vipoid wrote:

 MagicJuggler wrote:

From a fluff perspective, I'm iffier on the "add new models/zombie" mechanic, since Wracks are formally called Haemacolytes and are willing victims that hope to one day become Haemonculi themselves

Is this a recent change? I could have sworn Wracks used to be victims - often people who had annoyed the Haemonculus in some way - and who had subsequently been turned into subservient Wracks as a punishment. I certainly don't remember it ever being regarded as a reward - quite the opposite in fact.

No, thats the Grotesque you're thinking of, ever since they introduced Wracks in 5th they've always been the willing victims/apprenticies hoping to become Haemonculi themselves and there's a couple of fluff stories on the 7th ed Coven supplement about Acothysts (high ranking Wracks) achieving this.

add me to the chorus of "plastic Aspect Warriors" requests, please.

 vipoid wrote:

 Selym wrote:
It would not. Eldar mechanics are Bonesingers, who use their psychic abilities to shape the Wraithbone. However, they take centuries to train, and the Eldar are extremely reluctant to take them anywhere outside of a Craftworld.

Okay. And that relates to DE Haemonculi how exactly?

It doesn't need to. It's a standalone comment about Bonesingers.

 Imateria wrote:

No, thats the Grotesque you're thinking of, ever since they introduced Wracks in 5th they've always been the willing victims/apprenticies hoping to become Haemonculi themselves and there's a couple of fluff stories on the 7th ed Coven supplement about Acothysts (high ranking Wracks) achieving this.

Ah, okay. I was going to check but I can't find my DE books at the moment.

 Selym wrote:
It doesn't need to. It's a standalone comment about Bonesingers.

So then why did you quote me and start by expressing disagreement with what I said?

 vipoid wrote:

 Selym wrote:
It doesn't need to. It's a standalone comment about Bonesingers.

So then why did you quote me and start by expressing disagreement with what I said?

Because you had said it would be fluffy for Eldar to get field mechanics, equivalent to Techmarines, which it is patently not.

 Selym wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

 Selym wrote:
It doesn't need to. It's a standalone comment about Bonesingers.

So then why did you quote me and start by expressing disagreement with what I said?

Because you had said it would be fluffy for Eldar to get field mechanics, equivalent to Techmarines, which it is patently not.

No, what I said would be fluffy was if Haemonculi got healing abilities and perhaps the ability to revive dead characters.

 vipoid wrote:

Spoiler:

 Selym wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

 Selym wrote:
It doesn't need to. It's a standalone comment about Bonesingers.

So then why did you quote me and start by expressing disagreement with what I said?

Because you had said it would be fluffy for Eldar to get field mechanics, equivalent to Techmarines, which it is patently not.

No, what I said would be fluffy was if Haemonculi got healing abilities and perhaps the ability to revive dead characters.

 Selym wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

 MagicJuggler wrote:
-Eldar analogues to Apothecaries/Techmarines would be neat. The Haemonculus should in fact be allowed to resurrect fallen characters, at a price.

That would be both awsome and flavourful.

It would not. Eldar mechanics are Bonesingers, who use their psychic abilities to shape the Wraithbone. However, they take centuries to train, and the Eldar are extremely reluctant to take them anywhere outside of a Craftworld.

 vipoid wrote:

 Selym wrote:

 vipoid wrote:

 Selym wrote:
It doesn't need to. It's a standalone comment about Bonesingers.

So then why did you quote me and start by expressing disagreement with what I said?

Because you had said it would be fluffy for Eldar to get field mechanics, equivalent to Techmarines, which it is patently not.

No, what I said would be fluffy was if Haemonculi got healing abilities and perhaps the ability to revive dead characters.

Um, maybe I'm missing something about the Eldar fluff, because while I get the sparknotes about their mythology, I don't remember there being a "they never risk their Bonesingers" clause the way Tau never risk the Nicassar and Imperium making contact.

It is still weird that Eldar are one of the only groups of armies/factions with no in-game vehicle repair mechanism whatsoever. (Even the Tau get automatic repair systems)

Well one factor would be that their vehicles are grown instead of built. If a Wave Serpent looses some armour plating, no amount of welding or praying to a mechanical god is going to fix that. You're gonna have to stand there for a period of time asking it very politely to defy physics and start being a Wave Serpent again.

I miss the 2nd ed BoneSinger psychics where you could repair locations and even make your wraithguard/wraithlords do a 'soulburst'

They were very cool.

I want Jetbikes that feel like they get something out of being Jetbikes instead of the poor-man's-Crisis-Suits we get. Melee weapons. Fusion guns. Move-shoot-move. That sort of thing.

I think that the rules for Aspects are OK for the most part but the Index was a classic GW overcompensation of combining nerfs with point increases.

Banshees and Scorpions should work fine this edition but they ought to be in the sub 15ppm category.

Ynnari:

At least 1 or 2 new units.

Decent rules for the Visarch to make it interesting to field or just worth it for the Phoenix Lord price it has. Just any reason to not use it simply as an Autarch proxy and calling it done.

Craftworld/Asuryani:

Slightly lower cost/extra attack/more survability (+1 to cover?) for Striking Scorpions. They are noce but too expensive for what they get. Scorpion Claw wasn't Unwieldly in 7th; it shouldn't have the -1 to hit in 8th.

A bonus to SS charge distance as an aura for Karandras? It would make SS charge more reliable from Deepstrike but at a hefty cost.

Lower Wraithknight cost to be only around 15 points more expensive than an Imperial Knight (or even the same if you don't rate the ability to be buffed as points-worth). Alternatively, give it something special over Imperial Knights to justify its cost: Titanic Wraithbone fists that are not simply a worse alternative to Titanic Feet, or slightly higher movement, or true Fly...

Harlequins:

Change the special Shrieker ammunition to the standard Sniper "additional MW if 6 to wound is rolled", but maybe keep 1d3 MW (if not very unbalanced). Having to wound and bypass armor to get the effect makes it only ever useful against cheap hordes. Mmmm now that I think about it you almost get that already, rolling a 6 to wound gives you AP -3 how could they buff this special ability?

Ynnari:
- fix the Visarch. Either a cut his point cost in half, or give him something special. Ynnaris could (should?) have an aura related to soulbursting. An easy thing would be to have an aura that allows a second unit to soulburst: "when a unit dies, you can pick up to 2 units within 7" to soulburst, as long as at least one of them is under the aura", or an aura that extends the soulburst range from 7" to 14" or something. I'm not sure either auras matches the Visarch's fluff/design. Rerolls to hit would be more typical for a close combat guy like him (but it's pretty bland).
- new units obviously. A troop, a generic HQ, and something flavorful. An apothecary-type model (that can revive dead models) would match Ynnari's fluff.

Drukhari need a few things to flesh them out a bit further:

Archon Aura buff (maybe have a blanket -2 to leadership within 12"?)

Bloodbrides should get more special weapons
Wych's shardnet and razorflails need to be respecced, both are pretty useless.

Hellions need a bit of a price increase to be that swarm pack it was meant to be.

Grotesques or talos need better AP, we need some sort of strong anti armour melee.

Heatlance needs a big price reduction so it can compete with dark lances.

Finally give us options for HQ units! We need a decent selection of wargear, their base stats are meh so we need to buff them up with their tech.

Fix razorwing flock spam. It will be very tiring soon.

fresus wrote:
Ynnari:
- fix the Visarch. Either a cut his point cost in half, or give him something special.

I think he needs an invulnerable save for one thing.

I'll second generic Ynnari HQs. Maybe something like:

Prophet of Ynnead, the psyker HQ
Apostle of Ynnead, the beatstick HQ

For Harlequins:

I'd love gunslinger troupes as an option, that would be phenomenal to load them up in a clown car and go face-melting. Unlikely, though.

The Death Jester needs a big buff. I'd say to axe the useless shrieker mode on his gun and make it a flat buff that unsaved wounds from his shuriken cannon generate D3 additional wounds that then need to be saved against (where the additional wounds can not generate more additional wounds). This would give him a decent anti-horde role - we already have an ace character-killer in the Solitaire, there's no point in the DJ being a sniper with a gun fantastically unsuited to it.

The DJ needs to be someone's hardcounter. As of now, the existence of other units on the table or in its codex/index is its hardcounter. It does nothing.

One thing that doesnt exist but I would love to see is some sort of heavy wraith infantry. Suler expensive point wise wraith units with a 2+ save. What purpose they serve idk, just something I think would be cool

 TheLumberJack wrote:
One thing that doesnt exist but I would love to see is some sort of heavy wraith infantry. Suler expensive point wise wraith units with a 2+ save. What purpose they serve idk, just something I think would be cool

Except that exactly what Wraith are, heavy infantry.

 Imateria wrote:

 TheLumberJack wrote:
One thing that doesnt exist but I would love to see is some sort of heavy wraith infantry. Suler expensive point wise wraith units with a 2+ save. What purpose they serve idk, just something I think would be cool

Except that exactly what Wraith are, heavy infantry.

I meant heavier but I guess when I say that I get wraithlords and then I realize im an idiot sooooo Im gonna say I want plastic aspect warriors

 TheLumberJack wrote:
One thing that doesnt exist but I would love to see is some sort of heavy wraith infantry. Suler expensive point wise wraith units with a 2+ save. What purpose they serve idk, just something I think would be cool

Apart from the lack of a 2++ we already have that. They're nearly as big as the Avatar, any bigger and they might as well be Wraithlords.

Which, btw, are very expensive*, durable* and big. And bipedal...

Just not something that I feel has a space to exist in CWE.

*Compared to single WG models

 Robin5t wrote:


The Death Jester needs a big buff. I'd say to axe the useless shrieker mode on his gun and make it a flat buff that unsaved wounds from his shuriken cannon generate D3 additional wounds that then need to be saved against (where the additional wounds can not generate more additional wounds). This would give him a decent anti-horde role - we already have an ace character-killer in the Solitaire, there's no point in the DJ being a sniper with a gun fantastically unsuited to it.

That's not decent antihorde, though. You are expecting what, 2 to 4 additional wounds that can be saved? With no rend?
That sounds even more useless.
Being a sniper at least bring something special to the faction. He should be better at that (imho)

If he could chose the exact model his wounds were allocated to... That might be helpful. But he still struggles to do damage to... um... anything.

After playing my first game of 8E yesterday, my wish is for cheaper Windriders. Overall I am really happy with the changes made to Windriders, but they didn't also need a price hike

No longer having JSJ, 3+ Armour or Jink means they die MUCH faster than even Tactical Marines. Don't get me wrong, having 2 wounds with 4+ amour makes sense, but if anything gets a few shots at them, they die. And they have to stay in LoS now if they want to shoot
And to top that off, they just can't kill stuff, so getting into range to shoot is too great of a risk

I'm a Saim-Hann player, so dropping Windriders from my list isn't an option. I'd like Windriders to go to 15ppm, with 5ppm Twin Cats. The other 2 guns can stay as they are priced
This change would make the standard Windrider only 20ppm (instead of 30), Shuricannon bikes will be 27ppm (the same cost as 7E, but still worse) and Scatter bike will be 30ppm

It's not a big change and would only save about save about 60pts from my list, but it would be nice if GW acknowledged that they over-corrected the Windriders. They needed the nerfs, but not the price increase too.

-

 Galef wrote:
After playing my first game of 8E yesterday, my wish is for cheaper Windriders. Overall I am really happy with the changes made to Windriders, but they didn't also need a price hike

No longer having JSJ, 3+ Armour or Jink means they die MUCH faster than even Tactical Marines. Don't get me wrong, having 2 wounds with 4+ amour makes sense, but if anything gets a few shots at them, they die. And they have to stay in LoS now if they want to shoot
And to top that off, they just can't kill stuff, so getting into range to shoot is too great of a risk

I'm a Saim-Hann player, so dropping Windriders from my list isn't an option. I'd like Windriders to go to 15ppm, with 5ppm Twin Cats. The other 2 guns can stay as they are priced
This change would make the standard Windrider only 20ppm (instead of 30), Shuricannon bikes will be 27ppm (the same cost as 7E, but still worse) and Scatter bike will be 30ppm

It's not a big change and would only save about save about 60pts from my list, but it would be nice if GW acknowledged that they over-corrected the Windriders. They needed the nerfs, but not the price increase too.

-

It might just be bikes in general. They all went up, look at Reavers and SM bikes as well. The only bikes that look good are Wolf Guard Bikers, but that is because they can take effectively a rapid fire 4 bolter and a cheap storm shield, so they maintained the previous firepower per point after the point increase.