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 Tiberius501 wrote:
Yeah Jesus, the salt is real haha. Magnus is broken as he is. So Mortarion being 50 extra points = utter garbage? Mortarion looks good from what they've shown. He just doesn't look broken OP yet. But we haven't seen his weapons and all that other stuff like everyone else is saying.
Maybe we should chill and wait to see the full Dex before jumping to the conclusion that there is nothing to be excited for and that Morty is just for show.

Ah yeah, Magnus who can't even reliably make it into winning tournament lists is totally broken. C'mon now.

Also, how does he look good? His statline is literally just a worse Magnus, his auras are mediocre and short ranged, the only possible thing that's "good" is confirming he got DR so at least he is a bit more durable but considering how exposed he is and how relatively slow that's not even selling me. This isn't me being salty, I just a legitimately bad looking unit and people falling over themselves to try and excuse it.

What exactly are you people seeing of value?

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Tiberius501 wrote:
Exceptionally unimpressive auras...? You're saying -1 to every unit's toughness within 7" is unimpressive? That 7" Orbital bombardment every turn is unimpressive? Man, what units are you using, because I'm clearly missing out

Yes, those are extremely unimpressive auras. I mean, have you seen what just rerolling ones to hit and wound do to the damage potential of some units carefully arranged around them? God forbid we bring up actually impressive auras like Robby G or the chapter masters. -1 to toughness won't even change the wound roll half the time, and the mortal wound averages out to a single mortal wound to every unit in his 7" inch range... if he has his full statline which again isn't all that likely due to the enemy having at least a turn of shooting on him due to again, not being fast enough to get in charge range turn one.

How about you put some math on the board. For the Auras, for the accompanying army, and give us a situation where he might be good.

That could possibly help us see your point of view. As it stand, I can't see him being bad as either a bullet sponge or a force multiplier, but what do I know. I'm not a tourney player, and I play Tyranids. Put those rules on a big bug chasis and I would be salivating.

SilverAlien wrote:

 Tiberius501 wrote:
Yeah Jesus, the salt is real haha. Magnus is broken as he is. So Mortarion being 50 extra points = utter garbage? Mortarion looks good from what they've shown. He just doesn't look broken OP yet. But we haven't seen his weapons and all that other stuff like everyone else is saying.
Maybe we should chill and wait to see the full Dex before jumping to the conclusion that there is nothing to be excited for and that Morty is just for show.

Ah yeah, Magnus who can't even reliably make it into winning tournament lists is totally broken. C'mon now.

Also, how does he look good? His statline is literally just a worse Magnus, his auras are mediocre and short ranged, the only possible thing that's "good" is confirming he got DR so at least he is a bit more durable but considering how exposed he is and how relatively slow that's not even selling me. This isn't me being salty, I just a legitimately bad looking unit and people falling over themselves to try and excuse it.

What exactly are you people seeing of value?

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Tiberius501 wrote:
Exceptionally unimpressive auras...? You're saying -1 to every unit's toughness within 7" is unimpressive? That 7" Orbital bombardment every turn is unimpressive? Man, what units are you using, because I'm clearly missing out

Yes, those are extremely unimpressive auras. I mean, have you seen what just rerolling ones to hit and wound do to the damage potential of some units carefully arranged around them? God forbid we bring up actually impressive auras like Robby G or the chapter masters. -1 to toughness won't even change the wound roll half the time, and the mortal wound averages out to a single mortal wound to every unit in his 7" inch range... if he has his full statline which again isn't all that likely due to the enemy having at least a turn of shooting on him due to again, not being fast enough to get in charge range turn one.

So statline. 1 less attack (has free nurglings and what looks to be a Pistol so more shooting than Magnus does) and 4 inches less of movement. For a slow and steady army this makes sens.

Ummmm -1T changes things VASTLY!

Suddenly, Marines are being wounded by bolters on a 3+ instead of a 4, Tau, Guard, Eldar, all on 2+. Suddenly Blight Launchers wound marines on a 2+. You got a T6 vehicle? Welp, T5 now. That T7vehicle is now T6, why hello triple Plasma Guns in a 5 man Plague Marine Squad. Nice to see you there.

-1T is HUGE. Suddenly you are getting an extra 16% wound ratio and with things like Blight Launchers which are Plague Weapons, BOOM would you look at at those rerolls of 1's for wounds.

Lets look at the current Bloat Drone. Moves 10, is S6 and has a 9" Flamer range. Welp, with Morty, you double out Marines with your free hits and get to reroll 1's to wound so lots of wounds there, then you have them wounding T7 vehicles on 4's instead of 5's.

Sure, for things that don't double you may face an issue but hell, even plasma guns can overcharge now and wound a T5 model on 2's with morty nearby. THEN that same unit, any characters, and more are slapped in the face with a potential d3 MW's!

Sorry but the mathematical and tactical advantage Morty provides is actually a scary prospect when played correctly.

 Carnikang wrote:
How about you put some math on the board. For the Auras, for the accompanying army, and give us a situation where he might be good.

That could possibly help us see your point of view. As it stand, I can't see him being bad as either a bullet sponge or a force multiplier, but what do I know. I'm not a tourney player, and I play Tyranids. Put those rules on a big bug chasis and I would be salivating.

Okay, just a quick example. -1 toughness is a conditional +1 to the wound roll and nothing else this edition. It won't even do that but half the time, due to toughness thresholds having large gaps where rolls don't change.

Compare that to say... rerolling ones to wound. On a unit wounding on a 3+, rerolling ones to wound wound mean 78% wound rate, while going up to a 2+ is an 83% wound rate. If you were wounding on a 4+, rerolling ones is 58% wound rate while going to a 3+ is 66%. On a 5+ it'd be 38% and 50% respectively.

Now, we again consider the limitations of his aura. Unlike say a space marine LT who grants rerolls to any unit in range from turn one, morty has to get close to the enemy, meaning it won't be online till turn 2 at the earliest. Furthermore, it means you can only target enemies in morty's charge range, meaning there is a very real possibility you may run out of targets fairly quickly, particularly as the enemy removes casualties closest to him, which also impedes his ability to get into melee further. Finally, the aura again may simply not matter, if you use lascannons as your anti tank for example it'll never really matter there, heavy bolters would benefit vs toughness 3 but not 4 infantry, etc.

So no, given the manifest limitations of the aura and the general lack of impact it will have by comparison to others, I don't think it's very good. I feel the comparison to a generic space marine LT is fairly apt, it'll be about that level of usefulness.

As for the mortal wound aura, that's a single mortal wound to units in range on average with morty at full health. Given that most armies which cluster close enough for the aura to hit multiple units also tend to be high in screening chaff, this again is unlikely to have a considerable impact. It's inability to target key units is why it isn't nearly as good as say an orbital strike.

Edit: Yes if you cherry pick times when the aura will help, don't compare it to other auras, and ignore all the ways debuffing enemy toughness creates problems that buffing your own units doesn't, the aura looks much better. I mean, talking about using the aura to debuff tanks for the blight launcher is silly. What, morty is in charge range of multiple tanks because you've already bypassed your enemy's defenses? You've already effectively done the hard part, and you've got a brutal monster in charge range. Slightly improving your ability to wound them at range is kinda... not a priority? You probably would have better things to shoot at if you've managed to neutralize their defenses, unless you were just mopping up.

I'm not saying it's useless, but it's a very niche ability that simply won't matter that often.

SilverAlien wrote:

 Carnikang wrote:
How about you put some math on the board. For the Auras, for the accompanying army, and give us a situation where he might be good.

That could possibly help us see your point of view. As it stand, I can't see him being bad as either a bullet sponge or a force multiplier, but what do I know. I'm not a tourney player, and I play Tyranids. Put those rules on a big bug chasis and I would be salivating.

Okay, just a quick example. -1 toughness is a conditional +1 to the wound roll and nothing else this edition. It won't even do that but half the time, due to toughness thresholds having large gaps where rolls don't change.

Compare that to say... rerolling ones to wound. On a unit wounding on a 3+, rerolling ones to wound wound mean 78% wound rate, while going up to a 2+ is an 83% wound rate. If you were wounding on a 4+, rerolling ones is 58% wound rate while going to a 3+ is 66%. On a 5+ it'd be 38% and 50% respectively.

Now, we again consider the limitations of his aura. Unlike say a space marine LT who grants rerolls to any unit in range from turn one, morty has to get close to the enemy, meaning it won't be online till turn 2 at the earliest. Furthermore, it means you can only target enemies in morty's charge range, meaning there is a very real possibility you may run out of targets fairly quickly, particularly as the enemy removes casualties closest to him, which also impedes his ability to get into melee further. Finally, the aura again may simply not matter, if you use lascannons as your anti tank for example it'll never really matter there, heavy bolters would benefit vs toughness 3 but not 4 infantry, etc.

So no, given the manifest limitations of the aura and the general lack of impact it will have by comparison to others, I don't think it's very good. I feel the comparison to a generic space marine LT is fairly apt, it'll be about that level of usefulness.

As for the mortal wound aura, that's a single mortal wound to units in range on average with morty at full health. Given that most armies which cluster close enough for the aura to hit multiple units also tend to be high in screening chaff, this again is unlikely to have a considerable impact. It's inability to target key units is why it isn't nearly as good as say an orbital strike.

Edit: Yes if you cherry pick times when the aura will help, don't compare it to other auras, and ignore all the ways debuffing enemy toughness creates problems that buffing your own units doesn't, the aura looks much better. I mean, talking about using the aura to debuff tanks for the blight launcher is silly. What, morty is in charge range of multiple tanks because you've already bypassed your enemy's defenses? You've already effectively done the hard part, and you've got a brutal monster in charge range. Slightly improving your ability to wound them at range is kinda... not a priority? You probably would have better things to shoot at if you've managed to neutralize their defenses, unless you were just mopping up.

I'm not saying it's useless, but it's a very niche ability that simply won't matter that often.

But you're using weapons in your example that DG don't use often. Heavy bolters and lascannons aren't really in our roster all that much. We have bolters, Blight launchers, plasma guns, etc, all of which benefit from that -1 toughness aura immensely. Not to mention, even lowly pox walkers without Typhus around would be getting a needed boost in melee. Turning marines into guardsmen and guardsmen into grots is a big deal.

His mortal wound aura does 2 mortal wounds on average. If he's facing off against a current strong list, often built around close proximity auras, he'll be next to a good batch of HQ's and units that your opponent wants to give said auras. So that'll be a fair few units within range once he's in melee. I'd say it's not too hard to squeeze four units in that aura. So he'd kill an extra model or two from a couple of squads or weaken a couple of HQ's when normally they're hard to target. Put that in both players' fight phases and you've just possibly killed a lesser HQ or two without even swinging Silence within a turn from both players. The rest of that blob just got carved up by the teleporting group of Deathshroud termies wounding them all on 2's now, even if they only have S7 weapons, like Typhus.

SilverAlien wrote:

 Carnikang wrote:

Edit: Yes if you cherry pick times when the aura will help, don't compare it to other auras, and ignore all the ways debuffing enemy toughness creates problems that buffing your own units doesn't, the aura looks much better. I mean, talking about using the aura to debuff tanks for the blight launcher is silly. What, morty is in charge range of multiple tanks because you've already bypassed your enemy's defenses? You've already effectively done the hard part, and you've got a brutal monster in charge range. Slightly improving your ability to wound them at range is kinda... not a priority? You probably would have better things to shoot at if you've managed to neutralize their defenses, unless you were just mopping up.

I'm not saying it's useless, but it's a very niche ability that simply won't matter that often.

I get the argument and it is valid but only from a small tactical sense.

Deployment in this edition has units in charge range T1. There are also many players that castle up. Removing casualties is one thing sure but it may or may not happen depending on how deep in you are to that squad.

Using the ability to debuff tanks to gain more favorable wound rolls in not silly. It is actually a good use if that is what you have to work with. Want bolters to wound on 5's vs 6's against a Knight? Still not a great use but if that is what you are facing?

Simply put, the aura provides a great degree of flexibility and allows a player to have options. Yes it is limited by range but its not horrible.

You brought up a Space Marine LT. Death Guard gets those too through Chaos Lords. 70ish points and boom, rerolls to 1's for hits and Plague weapon is rerolls to wounds of 1's. There are options and so far the Death Guard are more reliant on Character Aura's than most armies I have seen.

That "niche" ability will likely matter more than you think. It is an IMMEDIATE tactical consideration by the opponent. They have to deal with it or suddenly they could be dealing with units suffering FAR greater casualties than they should of normally. Then we add in Gift of Contagion and boom we could be seeing T2 Space Marines. How would you like bolters to wound on a 2+ or the new Plague Spewers to autohit, wound on a 2+ and reroll failed wound rolls of a 1?

In a vacuum, Morty's abilities are sort of Niche, in actuality? less so.

 Tiberius501 wrote:
But you're using weapons in you're example that DG don't use often. Heavy bolters and lascannons aren't really in our roster all that much. We have bolters, Blight launchers, plasma guns, etc, all of which benefit from that -1 toughness aura immensely. Not to mention, even lowly pox walkers without Typhus around would be getting a needed boost in melee. Turning marines into guardsmen and guardsmen into grots is a big deal.

His mortal wound aura does 2 mortal wounds on average. If he's facing off against a current strong list, often built around close proximity auras, he'll be next to a good batch of HQ's and units that your opponent wants to give said auras. So that'll be fair few units within range once he's in melee. I'd say it not too hard to squeeze four units in that aura. So he'd kill an extra guy or two for two squads or weaken a couple of HQ's when normally they're hard to target. Put that in both player's fight phases and you've just possibly killed 2 lesser HQ's without even swinging Silence within a turn to both players. The rest of that blob just got carved up by the teleporting group of Deathshroud termies wounding them all on 2's even if they only have S7 weapons, like Typhus.

Well first off, if you are using plague marines with plasma or blight launchers as your main anti tank over lascannon predators or rifleman helbrutes, I don't think there is a lot that can be done to salvage your list. We do have access to heavy weapons and ignoring them is a very very bad idea.

Second, you are ignoring the biggest limitation: how many models it will effect. How many enemy *models* will you have in range of his aura? Because those models will be removed first. Also note, removing all those models will hurt his chance of actually getting a charge off, which does matter for his second aura and general combat ability.

Third, he deals one mortal wound on average because the ability deals 1-3 wounds and triggers half the time. That's one mortal wound on average, assuming he is one his strongest profile. You are also assuming the enemy chooses to stay locked in combat with him over multiple turns without pulling valuable HQs into a better position. Honestly, considering the 6" range on aura abilities, it strikes me as extremely unlikely they'd be within 7" of morty at the start of the fight phase. After he carves up the unit and consolidates, much more likely, but probably not initially.

I do agree the best way to use him is a booster for dedicated melee units, who work much better with him. But we know even less about those than we do morty, so that's another wild card in the mix.

Bottom line on the toughness aura, it really isn't amazing to me. It can potentially have a bigger impact, but between the limitations on when it actually increases wounding chances and the ways being tied to morty hurts it in scope and how early it comes online, I really think it's about on par with just a flat reroll wound rolls of one aura on a generic hq. Which isn't awful but it simply isn't a huge force multiplier.

SilverAlien wrote:

 Tiberius501 wrote:
But you're using weapons in you're example that DG don't use often. Heavy bolters and lascannons aren't really in our roster all that much. We have bolters, Blight launchers, plasma guns, etc, all of which benefit from that -1 toughness aura immensely. Not to mention, even lowly pox walkers without Typhus around would be getting a needed boost in melee. Turning marines into guardsmen and guardsmen into grots is a big deal.

His mortal wound aura does 2 mortal wounds on average. If he's facing off against a current strong list, often built around close proximity auras, he'll be next to a good batch of HQ's and units that your opponent wants to give said auras. So that'll be fair few units within range once he's in melee. I'd say it not too hard to squeeze four units in that aura. So he'd kill an extra guy or two for two squads or weaken a couple of HQ's when normally they're hard to target. Put that in both player's fight phases and you've just possibly killed 2 lesser HQ's without even swinging Silence within a turn to both players. The rest of that blob just got carved up by the teleporting group of Deathshroud termies wounding them all on 2's even if they only have S7 weapons, like Typhus.

Well first off, if you are using plague marines with plasma or blight launchers as your main anti tank over lascannon predators or rifleman helbrutes, I don't think there is a lot that can be done to salvage your list. We do have access to heavy weapons and ignoring them is a very very bad idea.

Second, you are ignoring the biggest limitation: how many models it will effect. How many enemy *models* will you have in range of his aura? Because those models will be removed first. Also note, removing all those models will hurt his chance of actually getting a charge off, which does matter for his second aura and general combat ability.

Third, he deals one mortal wound on average because the ability deals 1-3 wounds and triggers half the time. That's one mortal wound on average, assuming he is one his strongest profile. You are also assuming the enemy chooses to stay locked in combat with him over multiple turns without pulling valuable HQs into a better position. Honestly, considering the 6" range on aura abilities, it strikes me as extremely unlikely they'd be within 7" of morty at the start of the fight phase. After he carves up the unit and consolidates, much more likely, but probably not initially.

I do agree the best way to use him is a booster for dedicated melee units, who work much better with him. But we know even less about those than we do morty, so that's another wild card in the mix.

Bottom line on the toughness aura, it really isn't amazing to me. It can potentially have a bigger impact, but between the limitations on when it actually increases wounding chances and the ways being tied to morty hurts it in scope and how early it comes online, I really think it's about on par with just a flat reroll wound rolls of one aura on a generic hq. Which isn't awful but it simply isn't a huge force multiplier.

This entire post seems to be made of assumptions. Like that statement about Blight Launchers and Plasma Guns being the "main anti tank weapons". I am pretty sure no one said that but ok. I am pretty sure that we meant that it gives us the flexibility and better chances to actually push the last bit of damage that could be needed or that it becomes a better tactical option if needed.

Then there is the idea of range. That is a big consideration but we are talking about a model on a 100mm base, one that can fly and as such charge behind units given space. Tactically, there are many ways to do this. That limits range and limits fall back options. This also means that if someone is using the full 6", that the nearly 4" base of Mortarion could likely fit in between there. Fun things from there.

Once again, in a vacuum he looks weak but Tactically... Oh the game states he can mess with

I have to agree SilverAlien his Aura is much weaker than his brothers. If there isn't much more to him I am afraid he will never be used. GW in the past has really over costed Nurgle in all of its game systems. The real question to me is what is their chapter trait? I sure hope it isn't disgustingly resilient which is already included on most Nurgle units

Guys, he's going to cost around the same as a fully kitted knight.

Unless he also has some other abilities, he's waaaay too expensive for his damage output.

I am hoping for a re-roll disgustingly resilient bubble - otherwise, as is, he's just rather meh.

(Don't recall - but is he a 3+ armour? I mean.... whut?)

Edit: yup. Apparently Primarchs just get regular old Power Armour, not Artificer Armour. This is just beyond stupid.

Yep he shouldn't be more than 350ish points for what we have seen so far and that is on the high side IMHO. Maybe if his -1 Toughness aura was 14" and had a DR buff he may be worth it. Having only a 7" range against enemy units is beyond frustrating.

And has been pointed out, the new S vs T table makes this ability average at best, and there's no instant death. People are massively overvaluing this aura.

It's 2017 where people talk about the damage output of a model without having seen the stats of even one of his three weapons...

Apparently he has Phoxpex Bombs aswell.
If you search for the old rules of this U clearly see that these where very OP.
They where threated as poisoned weapons, U could move the blast marker every turn 2 inch in any direction U wanted so they probably will spread now.
They also had a rule about Lingering Death meaning that where the bomb hitted it counted as difficult terain for units with a T value. So not sure what they will make of that.

@Tzusam: Thanks for that info. I tink that this is maybe the playstyle of the DG, that differs them from other chaos marines. And with playstyle I mean to create toxic zones on the board, which harm enemy units. Maybe the crawler can create some of this zones further away on the field.
With that, you can kind of control the movement and positioning of your opponent.

I would totally dig this and create a toxic wasteland out of every battlefield.

zerosignal wrote:
And has been pointed out, the new S vs T table makes this ability average at best, and there's no instant death. People are massively overvaluing this aura.

Yep.

-1T will in most instances be considerably worse than rerolling wounds.
It might be that rerolling wounds would be overpowered, but then our friend RG is standing right there.

Not sure on the mortal wound aura. I can see it being very effective against MSU or castling lists where you get into the middle of them and so roll against a lot of units. If you hit 6 units and get 6~ mortal wounds on top of regular psychic, shooting and melee that is pretty good.

From what I can see DG is going to be a mortal wounds dispenser. The Lord of contagion can drop some, Morty can drop some, I see the phopex grenades dropping some. I would not be surprised to see a couple more things being able to as well. It is going to be an interesting mechanic either way.

 Horus Luperkermit wrote:
It's 2017 where people talk about the damage output of a model without having seen the stats of even one of his three weapons...

It's entirely possible his weapons will be what makes him a nasty beatstick. I mentioned that myself. But he's still going to have issues in that he's unlikely to get into combat turn one, while most similarly costed units are contributing from turn one. He'll almost certainly need baby sitting to get him into melee, and that's simply not good for an already expensive model.

I really think this is a similar case of certain DG traits being overvalued by designers. For example, I've become increasingly convinced they still think +/- 1 to toughness is as good as it was in 7th, and that's why plague marines were overpriced originally.

 Lysenis wrote:
This entire post seems to be made of assumptions. Like that statement about Blight Launchers and Plasma Guns being the "main anti tank weapons". I am pretty sure no one said that but ok. I am pretty sure that we meant that it gives us the flexibility and better chances to actually push the last bit of damage that could be needed or that it becomes a better tactical option if needed.

Then there is the idea of range. That is a big consideration but we are talking about a model on a 100mm base, one that can fly and as such charge behind units given space. Tactically, there are many ways to do this. That limits range and limits fall back options. This also means that if someone is using the full 6", that the nearly 4" base of Mortarion could likely fit in between there. Fun things from there.

Once again, in a vacuum he looks weak but Tactically... Oh the game states he can mess with

He literally said we don't really use lascannons we use things like blight launchers and plasma guns, idk how else I'm supposed to take that? And again. If morty is within 7" of a tank that means its totally exposed. That's either a huge cock up by the enemy or you already got a major advantage and the game's probably been all but decided.

You do realize people already deploy units to counter these tactics, right? They don't leave 6 inches of empty space between the HQ and whatever he is buffing, they tend to stagger and fill the space as full as possible. Which means not huge empty gaps, and also means usually units who have 1-2 units on the edge of the radius, with the rest outside. Morty isn't the only flying melee unit, people have already figured out how to position to deal with that while also keeping a solid wall between the valuable HQ so you can't deepstrike in a psyker and fry their brains with one of their nastier powers.

Tactically he isn't very good. In fact, the only reason he looks good is that people constantly ignore how these abilities will function in game. He's not debuffing any unit you want, he's buffing whatever he can manage to reach. He isn't going to lower the toughness of every unit in his radius the entire shooting phase, just until enemies get cleared out. He's a 500 point chunk of your army that will likely spend his first turn twiddling his thumbs unless you sink more points into supporting him.

He could be good. I've continued to maintain that. But it relies on him having some powerful abilities they haven't revealed, such as his HH teleport, and really good weaponry, and even then it isn't his auras making him good it's his combat potential with the auras as a minor bonus.

-1 toughness is a effectively +1 to wound against most units with most weapons. If you're playing a plague-weapon heavy army, then all of a sudden a whole bunch of melee weapons and special weapons are wounding on 2s and rerolling 1s. I'll not be playing Morty anyway, but he's clearly going to be set up to be a potentially considerable close range multiplier to make all those Deathshrounds, special weapon marines and plague terminators devastating, make Poxwalkers effective, and help them all along with his extra auras.

You might have to play a bit more tactically than standing still surrounded by tanks or running two models up the board, the current peak of primarch strategic nous, mind. We'll see what his complete profile is like and can decide whether people who want to use him are being taxed for having to think a bit more.

I wonder how a Magnus, Morty double team would do: Magnus gives Morty warptime and gives himself +1 to invul, Morty gives himself -1 to hit. Morty will hit the enemy line turn 1/2 and Magnus will hit it turn 2. You're opponant won't have enough firepower to bring them both down before you've devistated their army. Worst comes to worst, Morty is dead at the end and Magnus is wounded but you'll have made your points back in what you've destroyed and you'll have drawn all of your opponants firepower away from the rest of your 500-1000pts.

Could be a very tasty combo.

Not sure I see it myself. Why not just use a normal psyker, then spend the other 300ish points on something that'll have an effect from turn one. Better yet, terminator sorcerer with his second power prescience buffing a 10 man unit of slaanesh terminators double firing?

It must really suck being a mathhammer player, that's all I can say.

SilverAlien wrote:
Not sure I see it myself. Why not just use a normal psyker, then spend the other 300ish points on something that'll have an effect from turn one. Better yet, terminator sorcerer with his second power prescience buffing a 10 man unit of slaanesh terminators double firing?

Because Magnus is already noted as being one of the toughest units in the game and requiring several rounds of an entire armies firepower to take him down. With both Primarchs on the board your opponant can't hope to take both of them down.

 XT-1984 wrote:
Maybe his Scythe does Mortal Wounds for each hit. That'd be good.

Codex screen grabs should be this time next week. Can't wait.

I can see him getting something like his HH part where he does a sweep attack hitting all enemies within range.

Magnus could easily be killed in 1 round of shooting by many armies, though he is tougher now with the 3++ (but won't help much if you go second and he dies first). And you have to pay another 100 for Changeling just to try to keep him alive turn 1.

8th is dominated by mobility, points-efficient units, and strong shooting. Death Guard are not good at any of those 3 things, and Mortarion not having access to Warptime is a crucial blow (the other powers are also great). I really want to see the rest of his rules and the whole codex because I am afraid we are in for yet another edition where Death Guard are basically expensive guys with bolters and limited melee, mobility, and effective long-range shooting capabilities.

Assuming the Contagion discipline powers don't change, you'll be able to add a -1 to hit Mortarion and likely a debuff to whomever he is attacking as well (-1S/-1T/-1A).

Even if we don't get any new, better powers I think people are underestimating how strong all that combined will be.

I'm already extremely happy with how those Psychic powers have helped me in the past. Especially -1T against an enemy when poxwalkers are in combat while they get a buff from Typhus and grow the unit.

Combine this with rumored bonuses from the unannounced Tallyman and you'll have an army that snowballs to destroy. Every turn gets stronger while the enemy gets weaker from various debuffs.

I think that seems cool as hell!

 mrhappyface wrote:

SilverAlien wrote:
Not sure I see it myself. Why not just use a normal psyker, then spend the other 300ish points on something that'll have an effect from turn one. Better yet, terminator sorcerer with his second power prescience buffing a 10 man unit of slaanesh terminators double firing?

Because Magnus is already noted as being one of the toughest units in the game and requiring several rounds of an entire armies firepower to take him down. With both Primarchs on the board your opponant can't hope to take both of them down.

Morty goes down turn one to my current CSM build, though he does fully take up the attention of my slaanesh terminator Death Star. I've been going combi flamer+Powerfist, to clear hordes and hopefully charge/consolidate into juicy armor targets, but honestly works fairly well if the big enemy tank comes to me. Psyker buffs them with prescience and warptime usually, which ends up killing morty in a turn between shooting and melee. It'll be a bit tricky to judge how far down I need to get morty to ensure he dies to my charge, but I think I can have my lascannon predators killshot and target Magnus, maybe direct 1-2 shots at morty but anymore is likely overkill.

The weirdest part? I didn't even massively overcommit. That's a 650 Death Star and 2cp stratagem killing a 500 point model in one turn, maybe with a little extra help but not much. It's not even a unit optimized for the role, they are using combi flamers instead of combi plasma or melta. He, by contrast, has likely managed to brutally savage one of cultist units, which isn't exactly the most terrifying prospect.

I think you vastly overestimate how durable morty is.

 Virules wrote:
Magnus could easily be killed in 1 round of shooting by many armies, though he is tougher now with the 3++ (but won't help much if you go second and he dies first). And you have to pay another 100 for Changeling just to try to keep him alive turn 1.

8th is dominated by mobility, points-efficient units, and strong shooting. Death Guard are not good at any of those 3 things, and Mortarion not having access to Warptime is a crucial blow (the other powers are also great). I really want to see the rest of his rules and the whole codex because I am afraid we are in for yet another edition where Death Guard are basically expensive guys with bolters and limited melee, mobility, and effective long-range shooting capabilities.

And why wouldn't you pay another 100 for the changeling? He can sit back with a bunch of Horrors on objectives when Magnus pushes forwards.

And yes, Magnus is easy to kill turn 1 if your opponant has 80 Lascannons. So far I've not had a single game where I don't make a profit on Magnus' points. When I get Mortarion, I'm definitely going to run a double team and see just how much damage I do.


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SilverAlien wrote:
Morty goes down turn one to my current CSM build, though he does fully take up the attention of my slaanesh terminator Death Star. I've been going combi flamer+Powerfist, to clear hordes and hopefully charge/consolidate into juicy armor targets, but honestly works fairly well if the big enemy tank comes to me. Psyker buffs them with prescience and warptime usually, which ends up killing morty in a turn between shooting and melee. It'll be a bit tricky to judge how far down I need to get morty to ensure he dies to my charge, but I think I can have my lascannon predators killshot and target Magnus, maybe direct 1-2 shots at morty but anymore is likely overkill.

The weirdest part? I didn't even massively overcommit. That's a 650 Death Star and 2cp stratagem killing a 500 point model in one turn, maybe with a little extra help but not much. It's not even a unit optimized for the role, they are using combi flamers instead of combi plasma or melta. He, by contrast, has likely managed to brutally savage one of cultist units, which isn't exactly the most terrifying prospect.

I think you vastly overestimate how durable morty is.

So you drop down and flame him turn 1, IF he doesn't have Plaguewalkers screening him, then you do about 7 wounds, IF you roll average, then you charge in, IF you make the charge and IF Morty doesn't have a screen. Killshotting Magnus would do about 3 wounds to Magnus. Then Magnus and Morty could just fly off and ignore your 650pt deathstar and tear apart the rest of your army.

Chances are, you don't kill either turn 1 because you won't be playing against an idiot, then the other 1350pts of your army gets gacked up by the dream team.

 mrhappyface wrote:
So you drop down and flame him turn 1, IF he doesn't have Plaguewalkers screening him, then you do about 7 wounds, IF you roll average, then you charge in, IF you make the charge and IF Morty doesn't have a screen. Killshotting Magnus would do about 3 wounds to Magnus. Then Magnus and Morty could just fly off and ignore your 650pt deathstar and tear apart the rest of your army.

Chances are, you don't kill either turn 1 because you won't be playing against an idiot, then the other 1350pts of your army gets gacked up by the dream team.

How are poxwalkers keeping up with warptime morty? I was assuming you'd get the first turn because half your army was three drops tbh and you literally described you strategy as warptime morty and charge turn one. They also have a sorcerer with warptime so unless I roll snake eyes the charge is going through. I mean, you can slowly advance morty and Magnus behind a screen of poxwalkers, it'll just be funny when they take 2-3 turns to get anywhere taking fire every turn. At that point, consider normal demon princes?

SilverAlien wrote:

 mrhappyface wrote:
So you drop down and flame him turn 1, IF he doesn't have Plaguewalkers screening him, then you do about 7 wounds, IF you roll average, then you charge in, IF you make the charge and IF Morty doesn't have a screen. Killshotting Magnus would do about 3 wounds to Magnus. Then Magnus and Morty could just fly off and ignore your 650pt deathstar and tear apart the rest of your army.

Chances are, you don't kill either turn 1 because you won't be playing against an idiot, then the other 1350pts of your army gets gacked up by the dream team.

How are poxwalkers keeping up with warptime morty? I was assuming you'd get the first turn because half your army was three drops tbh and you literally described you strategy as warptime morty and charge turn one. They also have a sorcerer with warptime so unless I roll snake eyes the charge is going through. I mean, you can slowly advance morty and Magnus behind a screen of poxwalkers, it'll just be funny when they take 2-3 turns to get anywhere taking fire every turn. At that point, consider normal demon princes?

How are you guaranteeing your charge and being within flamer range T1 when deepstriking?