Death Guard + Nurgle Daemons [News: Dec 30 - Jan 2018 WD with the new models]

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**DarkStarSabre**

So important questions.

Our normal Terminators - we can pretty much guess that our flamer, heavy flamer, power axes and power swords are becoming plague equivalents. And with the exception of the Balesword we have the points for everything in the CSM book - or can figure them out.

We also know that our base terminators are 7 points more.

Ok. Fair enough. But I have important questions.

Power Fists (safe to assume still in). Chainfists. Power Mauls. Lightning Claws (suspect still in due to the Chaos Lord).

I ask as my local GW has a tournament the Sunday after release and my current list is revolving around a Terminator blob and a Daemon Prince Vanguard detachment so would like to start figuring out rough points.

**Qlanth**

Can anybody answer this for me?

With various daemons being in the codex itself filling various slots... does including them in those slots keep your army from becoming Battleforged?

For example, if I have a full Death Guard Battalion and include Plaguebearers in the Troop slot, do I still get all the bonuses of having a Death Guard Battalion?

Many people on FB saying that just because they are Nurgle and they are in the codex does NOT make them Death Guard and so, they must be taken in a separate detachment of Daemons. This seems completely ridiculous to me but I don't know any better.

**Kendo**

Thommy H wrote:
broxus wrote:
So plaugebearers are in the book but you can't use them in your Death Guard formation and stay battle forged? Why?

For summoning.

I'm not clear why summoning would interfere with battleforged status. If the units all share the key word nurgle, and fill out unit break down, where do things go wrong?

**ZebioLizard2**

Because the need is for Heretic Astartes or Death Guard.. Which Daemons don't have.

**Kendo**

I was under the impression a faction had to share only a single key word, not all of them. In this case Nurgle.

**Qlanth**

ZebioLizard2 wrote:
Because the need is for Heretic Astartes or Death Guard.. Which Daemons don't have.

While I understand the logic here, it seems completely contradictory. Why include the Daemons in the codex if I am punished for bringing them? Why include the Daemons in the codex if I am meant to bring them in a separate detachment... but not include a Daemon HQ? It seems like they should have just left them out and told us all to wait for the Daemon codex to drop. I don't really see the point if I am actually punished for bringing them.

**Kendo**

The example in the rule book explicitly uses a space marine as an hq and then stated that a battle forged army must have either imperial or astartes faction key words. A death guard HQ model has chaos, heretic astartes, nurgle, Deathguard faction keywords, any unit included in the formation must have one of those words in common. A plague bearer and Deathguard both share nurgle, so nurgle becomes the unifying faction keyword for the force. Battleforged criteria met?

**Nostromodamus**

Kendo wrote:
The example in the rule book explicitly uses a space marine as an hq and then stated that a battle forged army must have either imperial or astartes faction key words. A death guard HQ model has chaos, heretic astartes, nurgle, Deathguard faction keywords, any unit included in the formation must have one of those words in common. A plague bearer and Deathguard both share nurgle, so nurgle becomes the unifying faction keyword for the force. Battleforged criteria met?

Correct, it is Battle Forged.

However, any special rules requiring the entire detachment to have the DEATH GUARD keyword would not apply, as Plaguebearers lack the keyword.

**mmzero252**

Once the first round starts, faction keywords become pointless. You could summon Khorne daemons if it was possible and not lose battleforged. The Dev Commentary states that.

So summoning some nurgle daemons with characters won't cause you to suddenly lose DG stuff. Especially since you don't need to say what the summoning points will be used on ahead of time.

**Thommy H**

You only get the benefits of being a Death Guard detachment if every unit has the DEATH GUARD keyword. The daemons don't have it. A detachment can still be battle-forged if you mix them in, but it won't be a "Death Guard detachment" and so won't be able to use certain faction abilities.

The daemon units are included in the Codex because Death Guard characters have a special rule that allows them to summon daemons. There were a small number of daemon units in the Chaos Space Marines Codex for the same reason.

Units summoned in this way don't affect factions as they're added from your reinforcements points pool rather than being part of a detachment.

So, if you make an army that's entirely DEATH GUARD, you can still get the Death Guard goodies, and also use Dark Ritual to summon daemons, which you don't even need to purchase an extra book to use.

**Dionysodorus**

Yes, you can include the daemons in a detachment with Death Guard units. You can even have a detachment with Death Guard and daemons and then a detachment of Ultramarines and still be battleforged -- this is not very restrictive.

What people mean to be pointing out is that (if Death Guard work like every other codex we've seen so far) including daemons in a detachment will mean that it is no longer a "Death Guard" detachment. Therefore Death Guard units in it won't get 18" rapid-fire and so on, and it won't unlock Death Guard stratagems.

**O'Shovah's Desciple**

Neronoxx wrote:
O'Shovah's Desciple wrote:

Spoiler:

Neronoxx wrote:
O'Shovah's Desciple wrote:
Neronoxx wrote:
Thats a bit disappointing....

Really? Why? I think this stuff is fantastic. There are some really, really good models in this book. We got some significant points reductions, amazing new models in both rules and aesthetics. I don't know where the disappointment comes in. I am thrilled. I am a competitive WAAC player and I have some lists going in my head that I cannot wait to try. There are so many options to go with in with this dex it is awesome.

Models are fantastic.
What sounds so utterly dissappointing is how this GW utterly fails to handle Chaos releases.
The lack of Toughness 5 and DR on Chaos Lords/Sorcerers and possessed is simply unforgivable. It's a failure understand what fans wanted and a failure to interpret their own fluff on a basic level that is so worringly obvious that it throws into doubt every other release GW has yet to do; what will the next army lose?

What was the point of releasing a DEATHGUARD codex with vanilla units in it? These aren't the codex adherent astartes - these are devout followers of nurgle without his signature blessings and rules to make the army different.

Why should I spend $50 on a book that wasn't the best they had to offer me? Why should any of us reward them for this lazy cut and paste job?

I don't think I will be purchasing the codex, as sad as it is, until they fix this. If I do, it'll be at a massive discount from a 3rd party. Even still, it makes me scared for my thousand sons, who already have virtually nothing.
Will they get copy and paste sorcerers and lords?
What about possessed? World Eaters?
How will they feth over Blood Angels?
Really discouraging given how I've waited almost 6 months for this flop.

Automatically Appended Next Post:
[spoiler]
H.B.M.C. wrote:
Pseudomonas wrote:
What is the name of the codex again? Exactly.
Exactly!

Pseudomonas wrote:
Modularity has always been one of the central themes of 40K. Forcing Characters into monobuilds is sheer folly and it should be decried at every opportunity.
Sadly this is the post-CH world GW lives in. The ultimate reason why there isn't a "Lord of Contagion" option with power armour is that GW don't make a model for him. So you get a Death Guard Chaos Lord in Power Armour in a Death Guard Codex with no special rules that mark him out as a member of the Death Guard.

NinthMusketeer wrote:
T5 and DR would require a re-evaluation (and increase) of point cost. Those are powerful benefits that also work well together; higher T is great against a large number of weaker shots while DR messes with normally 'reliable' weapons that have good profiles but less shots.
False dilemma.

This should have been worked into the rules prior to the Codex coming out. And it wouldn't need to be everything.

The sheer fact that I agree with everything H.B.M.C. has said in this thread is an eye-opening prospect.

Fair enough, but I think it has something to do with game balance. Also, in the long run, I do not think these models missing the +1t and DR are going to make that huge of a difference. [/spoiler]Does it screw with the theme of the army? Sure. But lets be honest, it doesn't make the army unplayable.

It does if you play for the theme. What about that do you not understand?
I had to suffer through this garbage in 7th playing Blood Angels, I'm not going to again.

I think we can all agree that New GW is 10 times better than what it was. This seems to me like people still have to find a reason to complain about something.

**Qlanth**

Dionysodorus wrote:
Yes, you can include the daemons in a detachment with Death Guard units. You can even have a detachment with Death Guard and daemons and then a detachment of Ultramarines and still be battleforged -- this is not very restrictive.

What people mean to be pointing out is that (if Death Guard work like every other codex we've seen so far) including daemons in a detachment will mean that it is no longer a "Death Guard" detachment. Therefore Death Guard units in it won't get 18" rapid-fire and so on, and it won't unlock Death Guard stratagems.

This is exactly what people are arguing.

And to piggy back on this, while some people are saying that the point of including them in the Codex is for you to summon Daemons, this doesn't make any sense with a unit like Nurglings where a large part of their draw is to deploy them 9'' away from enemies at the beginning of the game. Opening yourself up for a decent screen or a turn 1 charge which DG lacks right now.

**DarkStarSabre**

Dionysodorus wrote:
Yes, you can include the daemons in a detachment with Death Guard units. You can even have a detachment with Death Guard and daemons and then a detachment of Ultramarines and still be battleforged -- this is not very restrictive.

Actually, you can't do that.

A Battleforged army has all detachments sharing a keyword. Ultramarines have exactly ZERO keywords in common, even if you go for the broader faction ones.

Might not be wise to give advice that is blatantly wrong.

**SilverAlien**

Well, as long as at least one detachment is pure DG in your army, the only downside to having a mixed detachment is you lose the CT for that specific detachment. Even stratagems merely require a pure DG detachment in the army, but can then be used on any qualifying unit, even those in other detachments.

Considering our CT has little to no utility for a lot of our army, you can easily include a mixed detachment if you are careful about how you divide it. I mean, HQs don't care because it offers little benefit, our tanks and daemon engines don't care because they don't get CT. Even deathshroud barely care.

Our CT is honestly there to boost basically 3-4 units, cultists (a little), ranged PM (a lot), ranged helbrutes (a lot), and ranged blightlord terminators (depends).

**Dionysodorus**

DarkStarSabre wrote:
Dionysodorus wrote:
Yes, you can include the daemons in a detachment with Death Guard units. You can even have a detachment with Death Guard and daemons and then a detachment of Ultramarines and still be battleforged -- this is not very restrictive.

Actually, you can't do that.

A Battleforged army has all detachments sharing a keyword. Ultramarines have exactly ZERO keywords in common, even if you go for the broader faction ones.

Might not be wise to give advice that is blatantly wrong.

Yes, this might not be wise, but I think I'm safe. Battle-forged armies are simply ones which are composed of detachments, and "some Detachments require all units included in it to be from the same Faction". In fact this restriction applies to all detachments that can consist of multiple units except for the Fortification Network.

You may be thinking of the rule on p214 that "All of the units in a matched play army... must have at least one Faction keyword in common". This is a separate rule and has nothing to do with being Battle-forged.

**dan2026**

Both the CSM and the Daemons would share the NURGLE keyword and therefore can be in the same detachment together.

Or if you wanted to do it another way you could have one detachment of DEATH GUARD and one detachment of NURGLE DAEMONS and play them together.

I don't see any problems.

**SirDigby**

We need a clearer page-by-page review ;_; Where is winters SEO?

According to MWG Deathshroud are Strength 5, but Lords of Contagion remain Strength 4 as the Index? That can't be right, can it?

**Thommy H**

Qlanth wrote:

And to piggy back on this, while some people are saying that the point of including them in the Codex is for you to summon Daemons, this doesn't make any sense with a unit like Nurglings where a large part of their draw is to deploy them 9'' away from enemies at the beginning of the game. Opening yourself up for a decent screen or a turn 1 charge which DG lacks right now.

Just because it isn't the most optimal use of the unit doesn't mean it will have a more favourable faction. Daemons are there for reference. You can absolutely use them as a separate detachment and choose them as normal if you want, but the main reason for their inclusion is to avoid players having to buy two books to use the Daemonic Ritual ability.

**Qlanth**

Thommy H wrote:
Qlanth wrote:

And to piggy back on this, while some people are saying that the point of including them in the Codex is for you to summon Daemons, this doesn't make any sense with a unit like Nurglings where a large part of their draw is to deploy them 9'' away from enemies at the beginning of the game. Opening yourself up for a decent screen or a turn 1 charge which DG lacks right now.

Just because it isn't the most optimal use of the unit doesn't mean it will have a more favourable faction. Daemons are there for reference. You can absolutely use them as a separate detachment and choose them as normal if you want, but the main reason for their inclusion is to avoid players having to buy two books to use the Daemonic Ritual ability.

This is actually a great argument in favor of them being able to fit inside the detachment with no penalty. GW would never try and prevent us from having to buy two books!!

In all seriousness, I understand but I am just a little disappointed. I think there are a lot of great options in the codex so squeezing in Daemons isn't entirely necessary I just thought it would be fun. And if it's fun, it doesn't always have to be optimal! Thanks for discussing this with me!

**changemod**

I'll admit, if the legions worked Daemonkin-style then daemons would be more interesting to include. Summoning just isn't interesting in it's current setup though. I'd rather it went back to the pre-7th style of daemons just have deep strike to represent being summoned.

**Fan67**

Want to buy super collector's edition #777
Offer 777$

**Slayer-Fan123**

If the summoning comment is true, then it won't be particularly hard to get the Chapter Tactic benefit then. Just set aside the points for the Daemons and you're good to go. I can't imagine every character will be moving a lot, so that's not gonna be an issue.

**XT-1984**

Next weeks preorders:

Codex Mechanicus
Deathshroud Terminators

**Thommy H**

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
If the summoning comment is true, then it won't be particularly hard to get the Chapter Tactic benefit then. Just set aside the points for the Daemons and you're good to go. I can't imagine every character will be moving a lot, so that's not gonna be an issue.

Yes, this is literally the reason they're included in the book.

**mmzero252**

Do we know for certain that nothing in the book allows the included daemons to be a part of the army without breaking the DG battleforged status? I'm just curious. Maybe somewhere in there there's an exception for the lesser nurgle daemons.

**Galas**

XT-1984 wrote:
Next weeks preorders:

Codex Mechanicus
Deathshroud Terminators

Here it comes the Meganobz pricepoint for 3 Deathshrouds? The FW ones are gonna be cheaper

**Binabik15**

Galas wrote:
XT-1984 wrote:
Next weeks preorders:

Codex Mechanicus
Deathshroud Terminators

Here it comes the Meganobz pricepoint for 3 Deathshrouds? The FW ones are gonna be cheaper

And I'll buy them

I'll, uh, stretch the parts out, though. With only three guys rhere have to be tons of bits in there, right.

For the lack of DGness of Possessed, well, luckily my current ones are mostly exposed flesh. My explanation for myself will have the partial to complete lack of body parts where black carapace might be left and a weak connection to the Warp as a reason for them not to be that tough.

This a point where hopefully a lot of people complain and GW listens and erratas an upgrade option in for DEATH GUARD lords/sorcs/possessed as well as putting it into the World Eaters etc. books once those (probably) hit.

**ImAGeek**

They're really dragging this release out.

**Galas**

Binabik15 wrote:
Galas wrote:
XT-1984 wrote:
Next weeks preorders:

Codex Mechanicus
Deathshroud Terminators

Here it comes the Meganobz pricepoint for 3 Deathshrouds? The FW ones are gonna be cheaper

And I'll buy them

Maybe GW feels kind to us and give them the agressor pricepoint at 40€ for 3. Even better, as they are gonna be smaller than the agressors, maybe even 35€ for 3! One can dream, no?

(And yes, I'm gonna buy at least one box, but after I buy bloat drones, normal terminators and plague marines

)