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I predict they trot out the tlac.

5 TL AC Razors averages about 25 conscript kills (out of cover) 500 points of firepower to destroy 75 points of worthless chaff...Please - come up with some better ideas.

how about a unit of 6 triple flamer crisis suits? Wow...28 kills. This unit costs over 400 points.

Why do these guys cost less than termagants again? who have a worse weapon and worse armor save? because they have +2 movement?

 Xenomancers wrote:
5 TL AC Razors averages about 25 conscript kills (out of cover) 500 points of firepower to destroy 75 points of worthless chaff...Please - come up with some better ideas.

That is actually a fairly decent counter. For 500 points you get 140 conscripts +2 commanders +1 commissar, meaning those razorbacks could kill them all in 6 turns. The conscripts on the other hand could only kill 5 razorbacks in 6 turns if every single model is in rapid fire range with FRFSRF (which is never going to happen, if even possible). At 24" range or without FRFSRF, it would take 11 or 22 turns respectively.

Lykanthar wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
5 TL AC Razors averages about 25 conscript kills (out of cover) 500 points of firepower to destroy 75 points of worthless chaff...Please - come up with some better ideas.

That is actually a fairly decent counter. For 500 points you get 140 conscripts +2 commanders +1 commissar, meaning those razorbacks could kill them all in 6 turns. The conscripts on the other hand could only kill 5 razorbacks in 6 turns if every single model is in rapid fire range with FRFSRF (which is never going to happen, if even possible). At 24" range or without FRFSRF, it would take 11 or 22 turns respectively.

The problem is that 8th edition games tend to end with someone getting tabled before turn 6 is over, those razorbacks would be taking fire from anti-tank weapons before long.

Lykanthar wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
5 TL AC Razors averages about 25 conscript kills (out of cover) 500 points of firepower to destroy 75 points of worthless chaff...Please - come up with some better ideas.

That is actually a fairly decent counter. For 500 points you get 140 conscripts +2 commanders +1 commissar, meaning those razorbacks could kill them all in 6 turns. The conscripts on the other hand could only kill 5 razorbacks in 6 turns if every single model is in rapid fire range with FRFSRF (which is never going to happen, if even possible). At 24" range or without FRFSRF, it would take 11 or 22 turns respectively.

Vacume - the razors cant shoot if they have been charged and if they move they are -1 bs. The Razors also degrade and in reality - games don't go past turn 3 anyways.

What actually happens in game is. Razors shoot at conscripts doing minimal damage while conscripts move up and shoot infantry. Las cannosn take out the razors effortlessly. And the guard win.

When you bring the "right tools for the job" and statistically can't even destroy your prefered target in 6 turns. SOMETHING IS WRONG.

sossen wrote:

Still waiting.

I suggest boltgums. You know, seeing as I already demonstrated how a few tactical squads can wipe out a conscript squad in a single turn.

 Xenomancers wrote:
5 TL AC Razors averages about 25 conscript kills (out of cover) 500 points of firepower to destroy 75 points of worthless chaff...Please - come up with some better ideas.

The stated problem was the following:

Martel732 wrote:
I'm not aware of 600 pts of anything available to BA that can remove conscripts.

4 turns of 600 points worth of Razorback fire will kill 100+ conscripts (Averaging 27.5 kills a turn.), and the conscripts won't be able to do much in return.

Martel732 wrote:
I'm not tailoring, so there's no way I'd bring 1400 pts of lascannons and 5 TL AC razors to a standard game.

Let the record state that we're arguing with Martel"I'm-not-going-to-adjust-my-list-to-solve-a-problem-just-like-last-edition-therefore-enemy-must-be-OP"732.


Btw. 600 points of Tacticals in rapid fire range kill about the same number of guys a turn with bolters (27.2). Frags up the average, and assaults will give you more.

If you're worried about proximity, 600 points worth of marines with Heavy Bolters average 28.7 kills a turn.

For those curious, 600 points of Assault Marines kill 22 conscripts in the CC phase. This is not including pistols, grenades, or the decent number of flamers you could bring with you.

All of these options will whittle away conscripts to victory, as conscripts just don't average very high damage output. (100 conscript shots killing 3.6 marines)

But if conscripts are really sticking in your craw, it's almost like you could use a combined arms approach with your entire army's (2000 points) anti-infantry gear, and get rid of far more than 30ish of them in a turn to get at the tanks (or whatever) beyond.

 Melissia wrote:

sossen wrote:

Still waiting.

I suggest boltgums. You know, seeing as I already demonstrated how a few tactical squads can wipe out a conscript squad in a single turn.

Tactical squads are wiping out conscripts? With the whopping 6 conscripts the kill a turn in rapid fire range with a 10 man...I'm going to assume this is a joke. Tactical squads can't kill anything.

The lols of conscript hyperbole is a gift that keeps on giving

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

sossen wrote:

Still waiting.

I suggest boltgums. You know, seeing as I already demonstrated how a few tactical squads can wipe out a conscript squad in a single turn.

Tactical squads are wiping out conscripts? With the whopping 6 conscripts the kill a turn in rapid fire range with a 10 man...I'm going to assume this is a joke. Tactical squads can't kill anything.

Concentrated Tactical Squads will kill them, hands down.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

sossen wrote:

Still waiting.

I suggest boltgums. You know, seeing as I already demonstrated how a few tactical squads can wipe out a conscript squad in a single turn.

Tactical squads are wiping out conscripts? With the whopping 6 conscripts the kill a turn in rapid fire range with a 10 man...I'm going to assume this is a joke. Tactical squads can't kill anything.

Concentrated Tactical Squads will kill them, hands down.

But what if the conscripts are all FRFSRFing in rapid-fire range while simultaneously screening the guard army while also having a daisy-chain of conscripts back to the commissar who is also bubblewrapped by the conscripts so deep strikers can't get close and who is also out of Line of Sight of everything while the conscripts advance up field!

WHAT THEN

 Xenomancers wrote:

Lykanthar wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
5 TL AC Razors averages about 25 conscript kills (out of cover) 500 points of firepower to destroy 75 points of worthless chaff...Please - come up with some better ideas.

That is actually a fairly decent counter. For 500 points you get 140 conscripts +2 commanders +1 commissar, meaning those razorbacks could kill them all in 6 turns. The conscripts on the other hand could only kill 5 razorbacks in 6 turns if every single model is in rapid fire range with FRFSRF (which is never going to happen, if even possible). At 24" range or without FRFSRF, it would take 11 or 22 turns respectively.

Vacume - the razors cant shoot if they have been charged and if they move they are -1 bs. The Razors also degrade and in reality - games don't go past turn 3 anyways.

What actually happens in game is. Razors shoot at conscripts doing minimal damage while conscripts move up and shoot infantry. Las cannosn take out the razors effortlessly. And the guard win.

If you are shooting conscripts while there are lascannons next to them, then conscripts aren't the reason the guard won

When you bring the "right tools for the job" and statistically can't even destroy your prefered target in 6 turns. SOMETHING IS WRONG.

There are multiple things wrong IMO.
First, the fact that razorbacks can even table conscripts at all just shows how powerful razorbacks are (or maybe just assault cannons...) Veterans/Guardians/Firewarriors, or any other ~10 points/model GEQ would all be tabled in 2-3 turns and that's a much bigger balance problem than conscripts staying alive. Second, survivable units like conscripts are actually good for the game right now with how much firepower there is, specifically to prevent getting tabled in 3 turns. Third, the most legitimate arguments against conscripts are that they do too much damage for how durable they are (roughly the same as veterans but with a lower HQ tax) and how hard they counter melee units.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
5 TL AC Razors averages about 25 conscript kills (out of cover) 500 points of firepower to destroy 75 points of worthless chaff...Please - come up with some better ideas.

The stated problem was the following:

Martel732 wrote:
I'm not aware of 600 pts of anything available to BA that can remove conscripts.

4 turns of 600 points worth of Razorback fire will kill 100+ conscripts (Averaging 27.5 kills a turn.), and the conscripts won't be able to do much in return.

Martel732 wrote:
I'm not tailoring, so there's no way I'd bring 1400 pts of lascannons and 5 TL AC razors to a standard game.

Let the record state that we're arguing with Martel"I'm-not-going-to-adjust-my-list-to-solve-a-problem-just-like-last-edition-therefore-enemy-must-be-OP"732.


Btw. 600 points of Tacticals in rapid fire range kill about the same number of guys a turn with bolters (27.2). Frags up the average, and assaults will give you more.

If you're worried about proximity, 600 points worth of marines with Heavy Bolters average 28.7 kills a turn.

For those curious, 600 points of Assault Marines kill 22 conscripts in the CC phase. This is not including pistols, grenades, or the decent number of flamers you could bring with you.

All of these options will whittle away conscripts to victory, as conscripts just don't average very high damage output. (100 conscript shots killing 3.6 marines)

But if conscripts are really sticking in your craw, it's almost like you could use a combined arms approach with your entire army's (2000 points) anti-infantry gear, and get rid of far more than 30ish of them in a turn to get at the tanks (or whatever) beyond.

There are lists with other challenges I have to deal with you know. Part of the issue with conscripts is that they require such extreme specialization to even have a chance to deal with.

I adapted plenty in 7th. There were just limited tools available to BA. No invis, no mini-MCs (TWC), no gladius etc. We were vanilla marines with nothing that made vanilla marines good.

Killing 22 conscripts with 600 pts of stuff is a win for the IG. I can't believe the Tau/Eldar math disease has spread so quickly.

 Melissia wrote:

sossen wrote:

Still waiting.

I suggest boltgums. You know, seeing as I already demonstrated how a few tactical squads can wipe out a conscript squad in a single turn.

I don't think it's feasible to walk up to the conscripts with flamers.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

sossen wrote:

Still waiting.

I suggest boltgums. You know, seeing as I already demonstrated how a few tactical squads can wipe out a conscript squad in a single turn.

Tactical squads are wiping out conscripts? With the whopping 6 conscripts the kill a turn in rapid fire range with a 10 man...I'm going to assume this is a joke. Tactical squads can't kill anything.

Concentrated Tactical Squads will kill them, hands down.

But what if the conscripts are all FRFSRFing in rapid-fire range while simultaneously screening the guard army while also having a daisy-chain of conscripts back to the commissar who is also bubblewrapped by the conscripts so deep strikers can't get close and who is also out of Line of Sight of everything while the conscripts advance up field!

WHAT THEN

For the record, I have not once reference their damage output, only their insane durability/pt.

sossen wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

sossen wrote:

Still waiting.

I suggest boltgums. You know, seeing as I already demonstrated how a few tactical squads can wipe out a conscript squad in a single turn.

I don't think it's feasible to walk up to the conscripts with flamers.

Drive up to them in tanks.

The tanks that the rest of the guard just smoked? Those tanks? Every pro-conscript poster here forgets that the real issue here is the other 1500 pts of stuff that has to be dealt with. Conscripts are busted IN CONTEXT more than in a vacuum. Want to keep conscripts the same? The rest of the guard gets a 25% price hike. Then it's fair again.

Martel732 wrote:

There are lists with other challenges I have to deal with you know. Part of the issue with conscripts is that they require such extreme specialization to even have a chance to deal with.

I adapted plenty in 7th. There were just limited tools available to BA. No invis, no mini-MCs (TWC), no gladius etc. We were vanilla marines with nothing that made vanilla marines good.

Killing 22 conscripts with 600 pts of stuff is a win for the IG. I can't believe the Tau/Eldar math disease has spread so quickly.

Martel, Assault Cannons are good against e-v-e-r-y-b-o-d-y.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
The tanks that the rest of the guard just smoked? Those tanks? Every pro-conscript poster here forgets that the real issue here is the other 1500 pts of stuff that has to be dealt with. Conscripts are busted IN CONTEXT more than in a vacuum. Want to keep conscripts the same? The rest of the guard gets a 25% price hike. Then it's fair again.

We know that, but we also know that you can shoot past the conscripts too. Tanks are big.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

sossen wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

sossen wrote:

Still waiting.

I suggest boltgums. You know, seeing as I already demonstrated how a few tactical squads can wipe out a conscript squad in a single turn.

I don't think it's feasible to walk up to the conscripts with flamers.

Drive up to them in tanks.

Then you have to include the cost of the transports and account for the losses that all units trying to get into charge range will suffer. It's the same problem that berzerkers or genestealers suffer. The issue is removing the screen and getting into melee with the backline without losing your whole army in the process. That's why we are looking for efficient shooting solutions which can remove the screen without having to expose the melee units - if berzerkers have to spend a round out in the open after they have killed most or all of the conscripts then they will be killed. The same will happen to tac marines trying to get up close and flame them to death.

Martel732 wrote:
The tanks that the rest of the guard just smoked? Those tanks? Every pro-conscript poster here forgets that the real issue here is the other 1500 pts of stuff that has to be dealt with. Conscripts are busted IN CONTEXT more than in a vacuum. Want to keep conscripts the same? The rest of the guard gets a 25% price hike. Then it's fair again.

And every anti-conscript poster here forgets that the reason Conscripts are so good is that Infantry Squads are so trash.

 Insectum7 wrote:

Btw. 600 points of Tacticals in rapid fire range kill about the same number of guys a turn with bolters (27.2).

I'll assume your math is good, so...

400 points of marines in rapid fire range kills 18 conscripts

401 points of conscripts+buffs (100 conscripts+commissar+officer+searchlights) in rapid fire range kill 22 marines.

(Math: 400 shots, 200 hit, 66 wound, 22 after saves)

I mean, obviously this isn't fair because I'm counting buffed conscripts against vanilla marines, but to just say "tactical marines beat conscripts" shows such sloppy thinking. I mean come on, these threads have been all over the boards for a month or more now - at least TRY to think about why that might be.

ITT:

Thread: "Conscripts and IG are unbeatable!"
Melissia: "No, you just have to use more points to kill them than they're worth if you want to get rid of them in one turn. 3x points seems to be the standard, like for most things."
Thread: "There's no SM units that can do that!"
Melissia: "Here's an set of units that could."
Thread: "They'd never get there before dying."
Melissia: "Okay, well, here's another set of units that could wipe them AND get there in time."
Thread: "Conscripts and IG are unbeatable!"

sossen wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Drive up to them in tanks.

Then you have to include the cost of the transports and account for the losses that all units trying to get into charge range will suffer. It's the same problem that berzerkers or genestealers suffer. The issue is removing the screen and getting into melee with the backline without losing your whole army in the process. That's why we are looking for efficient shooting solutions which can remove the screen without having to expose the melee units - if berzerkers have to spend a round out in the open after they have killed most or all of the conscripts then they will be killed. The same will happen to tac marines trying to get up close and flame them to death.

The IG gunline could be attacking your transports, OR they could be attacking the stuff you have that more directly threatens their firebase (like your own firebase).

That's why it's a game, decisions matter.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

sossen wrote:

Still waiting.

I suggest boltgums. You know, seeing as I already demonstrated how a few tactical squads can wipe out a conscript squad in a single turn.

Tactical squads are wiping out conscripts? With the whopping 6 conscripts the kill a turn in rapid fire range with a 10 man...I'm going to assume this is a joke. Tactical squads can't kill anything.

Concentrated Tactical Squads will kill them, hands down.

Concentrated anything the the level of 4-5x the points of the target will bring anything down. I can't believe people are even suggesting this.

Martel732 wrote:The tanks that the rest of the guard just smoked? Those tanks? Every pro-conscript poster here forgets that the real issue here is the other 1500 pts of stuff that has to be dealt with. Conscripts are busted IN CONTEXT more than in a vacuum. Want to keep conscripts the same? The rest of the guard gets a 25% price hike. Then it's fair again.

sossen wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

sossen wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

sossen wrote:

Still waiting.

I suggest boltgums. You know, seeing as I already demonstrated how a few tactical squads can wipe out a conscript squad in a single turn.

I don't think it's feasible to walk up to the conscripts with flamers.

Drive up to them in tanks.

Then you have to include the cost of the transports and account for the losses that all units trying to get into charge range will suffer. It's the same problem that berzerkers or genestealers suffer. The issue is removing the screen and getting into melee with the backline without losing your whole army in the process. That's why we are looking for efficient shooting solutions which can remove the screen without having to expose the melee units - if berzerkers have to spend a round out in the open after they have killed most or all of the conscripts then they will be killed. The same will happen to tac marines trying to get up close and flame them to death.

Deathypoo wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Btw. 600 points of Tacticals in rapid fire range kill about the same number of guys a turn with bolters (27.2).

I'll assume your math is good, so...

400 points of marines in rapid fire range kills 18 conscripts

401 points of conscripts+buffs (100 conscripts+commissar+officer+searchlights) in rapid fire range kill 22 marines.

(Math: 400 shots, 200 hit, 66 wound, 22 after saves)

I mean, obviously this isn't fair because I'm counting buffed conscripts against vanilla marines, but to just say "tactical marines beat conscripts" shows such sloppy thinking. I mean come on, these threads have been all over the boards for a month or more now - at least TRY to think about why that might be.

Why are you guys assuming the Guard get to fire first?

They have more drops. The tanks can drive up 18", dick around (blow smoke to make the IG hit on a 5+ and the Conscripts hit on a 6+?), some will get killed, some won't, but either way the infantry disembarks 9" (or 3" if their tank is destroyed and moves 6") putting them 27" upfield. That means anything within 35" of their original deployment is in-range, and in certain deployments that literally means there is 1" between the board edge and their maximum range.

And no, you don't have to include the transports in the cost of 'what unit killed conscripts' just like you don't have to include the conscripts as the support for the tanks that kill the rhinos.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
The tanks that the rest of the guard just smoked? Those tanks? Every pro-conscript poster here forgets that the real issue here is the other 1500 pts of stuff that has to be dealt with. Conscripts are busted IN CONTEXT more than in a vacuum. Want to keep conscripts the same? The rest of the guard gets a 25% price hike. Then it's fair again.

And every anti-conscript poster here forgets that the reason Conscripts are so good is that Infantry Squads are so trash.

I disagree. T3 5+ for 4 pts is not bad.

 Deathypoo wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Btw. 600 points of Tacticals in rapid fire range kill about the same number of guys a turn with bolters (27.2).

I'll assume your math is good, so...

400 points of marines in rapid fire range kills 18 conscripts

401 points of conscripts+buffs (100 conscripts+commissar+officer+searchlights) in rapid fire range kill 22 marines.

(Math: 400 shots, 200 hit, 66 wound, 22 after saves)

I mean, obviously this isn't fair because I'm counting buffed conscripts against vanilla marines, but to just say "tactical marines beat conscripts" shows such sloppy thinking. I mean come on, these threads have been all over the boards for a month or more now - at least TRY to think about why that might be.

Don't attack them point point for point. Why would you? If you have to remove them, attack them with much more than they're worth.

Remember to use concentrated bleach to remove those stains after that concentrated fire! And another flight to catch..

 Insectum7 wrote:

sossen wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Drive up to them in tanks.

Then you have to include the cost of the transports and account for the losses that all units trying to get into charge range will suffer. It's the same problem that berzerkers or genestealers suffer. The issue is removing the screen and getting into melee with the backline without losing your whole army in the process. That's why we are looking for efficient shooting solutions which can remove the screen without having to expose the melee units - if berzerkers have to spend a round out in the open after they have killed most or all of the conscripts then they will be killed. The same will happen to tac marines trying to get up close and flame them to death.

The IG gunline could be attacking your transports, OR they could be attacking the stuff you have that more directly threatens their firebase (like your own firebase).

That's why it's a game, decisions matter.

They can attack all of it. That's the problem you aren't getting. They've got undercosted choices on top of undercosted conscripts.

"Martel, Assault Cannons are good against e-v-e-r-y-b-o-d-y."

I disagree. They are pretty crappy vs mech. Especially for their cost.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:


Concentrated Tactical Squads will kill them, hands down.

Concentrated anything the the level of 4-5x the points of the target will bring anything down. I can't believe people are even suggesting this.