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 Howscat wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Howscat wrote:
The way GW handled the Flyer Spam lists has made me want to find a creative way of discouraging people from using to many conscripts. Maybe conscripts cant hold objectives?

That makes little sense and still prevents you from capping the objective.

It basically gives your opponents army obsec which at a tournament level is a huge boost. Sure the IG player can prevent you from scouring that point buy setting his unit on top of the objective but he is not scouring it either. From my experience at competitive tournament level games, conscripts are good but they can be dealt with. What conscripts give the guard is the ability to not worry about always having 2nd turn. The Alpha Strike is big in 8th ed. and conscripts are padding against it.

They don't always have the second turn with either ITC or core rules. They will have turn 1 at least 31% of the time, assuming that a CP reroll is earmarked for rerolling the seize.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Kind of like it's obvious that when you focus your best units to kill 3 point modles when you are getting blasted by heavy artillery losing 4-5x more points per turn - you auto lose the game. This should be obvious.

So Tactical Squads are your best units now?

No, I completely dismiss the tactical squad suggestion. I can think of no worse unit to bring into a game than a tactical marine. Maybe - scout bikes. They are the best anti infantry option marines have. 6 str 4 shots a piece for 25 points on a 16 inch move platform. Still would take them 5 turns for a 6 man scout bike to completely remove a 50 man conscript (if they were completely ignored.) To bad they average 2 scout bike kills a turn in return fire (without orders). It doesn't get any better if the scout-bikes charge ether.

Martel732 wrote:
So maybe make infantry squads 20 or 25 guys, put them back to 5pts a model and call it a day. And again, T3 5+ is much better than it used to be.

Having orders and commissar effects hit 50 guys at a time is far too powerful.

And you've ignored the reason why I literally just told you that Infantry Squads aren't as popular as Conscripts.

 Xenomancers wrote:

No, I completely dismiss the tactical squad suggestion. I can think of no worse unit to bring into a game than a tactical marine. Maybe - scout bikes. They are the best anti infantry option marines have. 6 str 4 shots a piece for 25 points on a 16 inch move platform. Still would take them 5 turns for a 6 man scout bike to completely remove a 50 man conscript (if they were completely ignored.) To bad they average 2 scout bike kills a turn in return fire (without orders). It doesn't get any better if the scout-bikes charge ether.

Sounds like your current method is working fine then.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
So maybe make infantry squads 20 or 25 guys, put them back to 5pts a model and call it a day. And again, T3 5+ is much better than it used to be.

Having orders and commissar effects hit 50 guys at a time is far too powerful.

And you've ignored the reason why I literally just told you that Infantry Squads aren't as popular as Conscripts.

a) the core rules give them way more survivability than they had before
b) how is the range thing anything new for imperial units?
c) orders are different, but maybe a couple need to be brought back?

Martel732 wrote:

Asmodios wrote:
"I am primarily objecting to #3, combined with #2 just a bit. I'm not trying to play a gimmick list, so the bubblewrap doesn't bother me. Two conscript squads give me at least 4 dead cards in my maelstrom deck, and give them 4 auto score cards. The concripts are cheap enough that they can do this and bring all the anti-infantry and anti-tank they could ever need. The conscripts leave too many points left over for the IG to work with. "
The thing with #3 is melee. Any army with a decent CC unit can get it in and you are either forced to run or they will just crush you over a few turns. This happened to me against CSM army last night. You get beat down in CC and you either have to run (giving up the objective thats the whole point) and while you are doing that the conscripts can't do there real job which is screening your good stuff. Once again they are very good but i think many of those crying broken haven't seen conscripts in practice. Id be fine with conscripts losing orders honestly though because in reality there true purpose is just being meat shields and the orders are just a useful bonus and makes your opponent have to play with half a brain and not park a unit 2' from a conscript blob

The melee units get crippled before they can assault. Or they assault, kill 20 guys, and then get erased. IG guy can afford to lose 20 conscripts in exchange for a HTH unit all day. IG firebase is too big and they have too many wounds on the table. Hard stop. I don't know many other ways to explain this. And yes, I'm playing IG guys building the most abusive stuff they can think of. Gak happens.

"will just crush you over a few turns"

This is fine for the IG player. He is paying a 150 pt squad to buy time holding off 300+ pts. No matter what you do, it's a win-win-win for the IG.

Im not sure who you are playing against but the opponents i have played against have had zero problems getting to me turn one (orks with weird boy jump turn one charge. CSM with terminator deep strike turn one charge followed up by rhino bezerkers and DP turn 2 charges. Harliquins getting their entire army across the board turn 1) almost every army i have played against has had something get in turn 1 and only a single game have i managed to steal the first turn. If you lose 20 conscripts you now also run into two problems 1. the unit is getting close to combat ineffective levels where your opponent no longer has to worry about any real damage output. 2. You are now stuck in CC if you fall back your bubble wrap most likely is not working anymore (either something was killed out with the 20 wounds, you had to fall back out of bubble wrapping everything or you placed so far away people can now multi charge into your units behind next turn). Realistically conscripts buy you one turn of shooting with your good stuff and thats only if you use them to conga line which means no FRFSRF bubble and no objective holding. Yes they would be broken if everyone was foot slogging across the board with no protection but thats another issue. With the amount of turn 1 charge possibilities this edition conscripts give guard a turn of bubble wrap, sometimes this is good enough sometimes its not. Just curious have you played against it several different times with different armies? I've now used them against several different players with completely different armies and list and they are good but i haven't found them broken at all.

Martel732 wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
So maybe make infantry squads 20 or 25 guys, put them back to 5pts a model and call it a day. And again, T3 5+ is much better than it used to be.

Having orders and commissar effects hit 50 guys at a time is far too powerful.

And you've ignored the reason why I literally just told you that Infantry Squads aren't as popular as Conscripts.

a) the core rules give them way more survivability than they had before
b) how is the range thing anything new for imperial units?
c) orders are different, but maybe a couple need to be brought back?

a) This is probably true, but it's also true of a bazillion other units. I think they're trying to make spamming infantry not awful for the armies that are supposed to spam infantry.
b) It's not, but Orders usually weren't given to single 10-man basic infantry squads either. They were used on 50-man Infantry Squad blobs, which were conscripts but with BS4+. If they brought that back I'd be happy.
c) This is wishy-washy for me but I play a superheavy tank company anyways so I don't really have a comment.

The hyperbole in these threads is downright amazing. I haven't seen this kind of blind fearmongering based off of biased mathhammer in so long.

Martel732 wrote:
" conscripts are padding against it."

Not really. They don't provide cover for anything. They are a physical movement barrier. That's what they really do. And if you get too close, they shoot you 200 times. But that's something you volunteer for, they can't make that happen. Maybe a mobile Eldar mech list that lances/shuricannons down all the IG anti-tank might have a shot. Maybe. But nothing the marines can field really stands up. Quad las preds are expensive and fragile, and stormravens can't be taken in sufficient numbers anymore (rightfully so). Devs are inefficient. Land speeders cost a TON.

You don't need cover from the IG perspective. All you need is to shoot back. Most alpha strike lists are done with close combat or close range shooting which conscripts prevent from occurring. Very few armies can out range IG making conscripts huge for the cheap artillery IG can output. OR it is conscripts with scion plasma spam which will be fixed when the codex is released.

If you want hyperbole...

7th ed. Scatbikes.

Oh wait, they WERE op just like the mathhammer suggested.

double post

 Deathypoo wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Deathypoo wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:


But what if the conscripts are all FRFSRFing in rapid-fire range while simultaneously screening the guard army while also having a daisy-chain of conscripts back to the commissar who is also bubblewrapped by the conscripts so deep strikers can't get close and who is also out of Line of Sight of everything while the conscripts advance up field!

WHAT THEN

You say that like it's hard to do all those things at once. It's really not, other than the fact that whatever models are in the daisy chain aren't going to be rapid-firing.

I suddenly get the impression you've never actually played with conscripts (or even against them?) before...

... because what you assert is possible and what actually is possible are completely different things. (e.g. a daisy chain cannot simultaneously take up only a few conscripts and still manage to bubblewrap the commissar from every direction to protect him from multiple deep-striking units, while he is also out of line-of-sight of the snipers and therefore essentially glued to the terrain piece while the conscripts advance into rapid-fire range and the officer stays within 6" while also being glued to that out-of-line-of-sight terrain piece which apparently moves up with them...

It's true that my real life examples don't include the los blocker because I don't bring snipers, but it wouldn't really hurt my normal opponent's set-up to put those officers behind a tank.

Thought I'd include a super detailed high tech image of my normal opponent's typical deployment (200 points). This'd be his preferred corner-to-corner set up. Hopefully you can see the image.

The box in the corner is all his heavy weapons teams, searchlights, and a few tanks. The two boxes in front of that are 7x7 conscript boxes. The little tails are exactly 6", meaning they don't actually need much of a tail at this point. The red line is the outer edge of his rapid fire threat range, and green is long range (both after moving). The dashed line is his anti-drop bubble.

If he needs to LOS block the officers he can put a tank on either side of them. There's normally a hill or something in that corner so his heavy weapons teams aren't having any LOS problems.

I have a feeling you will say "he isn't actually bubblewrapping his back line" but consider that I cannot get from outside his rapid fire range to his back line. I can put my whole army in that zone in order to reach his back line but the amount of damage that allows me to do to his back line doesn't compare to the damage 400 total shots I take from the conscripts. They brutalize me. If I ping his conscripts from my max range, his much longer ranged-back line picks me apart. It's not pretty.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
So maybe make infantry squads 20 or 25 guys, put them back to 5pts a model and call it a day. And again, T3 5+ is much better than it used to be.

Having orders and commissar effects hit 50 guys at a time is far too powerful.

And you've ignored the reason why I literally just told you that Infantry Squads aren't as popular as Conscripts.

a) the core rules give them way more survivability than they had before
b) how is the range thing anything new for imperial units?
c) orders are different, but maybe a couple need to be brought back?

a) This is probably true, but it's also true of a bazillion other units. I think they're trying to make spamming infantry not awful for the armies that are supposed to spam infantry.
b) It's not, but Orders usually weren't given to single 10-man basic infantry squads either. They were used on 50-man Infantry Squad blobs, which were conscripts but with BS4+. If they brought that back I'd be happy.

This is actually one of the things that I was against as well. I hated the idea of blob squads, still do.

I think that maybe, just maybe, Orders should be shifted to being an activated thing from the officer and essentially be an aura that affects units with Vox-Casters.

c) This is wishy-washy for me but I play a superheavy tank company anyways so I don't really have a comment.

I think, if anything, more Orders should have been put in or there should have been Orders for the specific Regiments.

 Deathypoo wrote:

 Deathypoo wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Deathypoo wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:


But what if the conscripts are all FRFSRFing in rapid-fire range while simultaneously screening the guard army while also having a daisy-chain of conscripts back to the commissar who is also bubblewrapped by the conscripts so deep strikers can't get close and who is also out of Line of Sight of everything while the conscripts advance up field!

WHAT THEN

You say that like it's hard to do all those things at once. It's really not, other than the fact that whatever models are in the daisy chain aren't going to be rapid-firing.

I suddenly get the impression you've never actually played with conscripts (or even against them?) before...

... because what you assert is possible and what actually is possible are completely different things. (e.g. a daisy chain cannot simultaneously take up only a few conscripts and still manage to bubblewrap the commissar from every direction to protect him from multiple deep-striking units, while he is also out of line-of-sight of the snipers and therefore essentially glued to the terrain piece while the conscripts advance into rapid-fire range and the officer stays within 6" while also being glued to that out-of-line-of-sight terrain piece which apparently moves up with them...

It's true that my real life examples don't include the los blocker because I don't bring snipers, but it wouldn't really hurt my normal opponent's set-up to put those officers behind a tank.

Thought I'd include a super detailed high tech image of my normal opponent's typical deployment (200 points). This'd be his preferred corner-to-corner set up. Hopefully you can see the image.

The box in the corner is all his heavy weapons teams, searchlights, and a few tanks. The two boxes in front of that are 7x7 conscript boxes. The little tails are exactly 6", meaning they don't actually need much of a tail at this point. The red line is the outer edge of his rapid fire threat range, and green is long range (both after moving). The dashed line is his anti-drop bubble.

If he needs to LOS block the officers he can put a tank on either side of them. There's normally a hill or something in that corner so his heavy weapons teams aren't having any LOS problems.

I have a feeling you will say "he isn't actually bubblewrapping his back line" but consider that I cannot get from outside his rapid fire range to his back line. I can put my whole army in that zone in order to reach his back line but the amount of damage that allows me to do to his back line doesn't compare to the damage 400 total shots I take from the conscripts. They brutalize me. If I ping his conscripts from my max range, his much longer ranged-back line picks me apart. It's not pretty.

My only question would be are you only playing kill point game? any objective based game if you placed half the objectives decently and considering they cannot be played within 6" of a table edge or 12" of each other would mean that he's going to have to table you in order to win or be forced to move the conscripts bubble out in order to claim objectives which then leaves him open to deep strikes. If this is all your opponent does just take tons of anti tank stuff sit out of conscripts range and blast his tanks off the table. Or just sit out of LOS or in cover and jump onto the spread out objectives last turn and win.

What games are you playing that are decided by objectives? Out of the 15 games of 8th ive played so far - 1 came down to objectives but we practically tabled each other as we each had about 10 wounds left on the board and were shooting duds for 2 turns.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Kind of like it's obvious that when you focus your best units to kill 3 point modles when you are getting blasted by heavy artillery losing 4-5x more points per turn - you auto lose the game. This should be obvious.

So Tactical Squads are your best units now?

No, I completely dismiss the tactical squad suggestion.

Hey man, your words not mine.

 Xenomancers wrote:
What games are you playing that are decided by objectives? Out of the 15 games of 8th ive played so far - 1 came down to objectives but we practically tabled each other as we each had about 10 wounds left on the board and were shooting duds for 2 turns.

The majority of games I've played or rolled up have come down to objectives. I think there are only 1-2 you can roll on both tables that are straight kill points. They then obviously have slay the warlord, line breaker and first blood. Most games come down to objectives that I've played maybe some areas people aren't rolling for what missions they are playing and are just doing kill points?

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Kind of like it's obvious that when you focus your best units to kill 3 point modles when you are getting blasted by heavy artillery losing 4-5x more points per turn - you auto lose the game. This should be obvious.

So Tactical Squads are your best units now?

No, I completely dismiss the tactical squad suggestion.

Hey man, your words not mine.

I was refering to mass razorbacks and other suggestions that at least make sense - but just don't make sense mathmatically. Tactical squads make sense in no way or form. You will struggle to find a worse unit in the game. Maybe a dire avenger is worse.

 Xenomancers wrote:
What games are you playing that are decided by objectives? Out of the 15 games of 8th ive played so far - 1 came down to objectives but we practically tabled each other as we each had about 10 wounds left on the board and were shooting duds for 2 turns.

Every game of 8th I've played came down to objectives. Even one where I had ~9 models left on the board was a close loss (12-10) maelstrom. That's the closest either side has come to being tabled in all of my games, and ironically it was the only one where I brought 4 instead of my usual 3 superheavy tanks.

Asmodios wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
What games are you playing that are decided by objectives? Out of the 15 games of 8th ive played so far - 1 came down to objectives but we practically tabled each other as we each had about 10 wounds left on the board and were shooting duds for 2 turns.

The majority of games I've played or rolled up have come down to objectives. I think there are only 1-2 you can roll on both tables that are straight kill points. They then obviously have slay the warlord, line breaker and first blood. Most games come down to objectives that I've played maybe some areas people aren't rolling for what missions they are playing and are just doing kill points?

People aren't getting tabled in your games? We are obviously playing a different game then because....stuff dies really fast in this edition (except for conscripts)

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Kind of like it's obvious that when you focus your best units to kill 3 point modles when you are getting blasted by heavy artillery losing 4-5x more points per turn - you auto lose the game. This should be obvious.

So Tactical Squads are your best units now?

No, I completely dismiss the tactical squad suggestion.

Hey man, your words not mine.

I was refering to mass razorbacks and other suggestions that at least make sense - but just don't make sense mathmatically. Tactical squads make sense in no way or form. You will struggle to find a worse unit in the game. Maybe a dire avenger is worse.

Then why are we worried about how conscripts match up to tacticals? "Omg! This one unit is better (marginally) than the second-worst unit in the game! OP!!!"

Perhaps we should compare conscripts to Storm Ravens or Terminators or something ... tell me, what's another OP unit we can compare conscripts to? Brimstone horrors?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Asmodios wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
What games are you playing that are decided by objectives? Out of the 15 games of 8th ive played so far - 1 came down to objectives but we practically tabled each other as we each had about 10 wounds left on the board and were shooting duds for 2 turns.

The majority of games I've played or rolled up have come down to objectives. I think there are only 1-2 you can roll on both tables that are straight kill points. They then obviously have slay the warlord, line breaker and first blood. Most games come down to objectives that I've played maybe some areas people aren't rolling for what missions they are playing and are just doing kill points?

People aren't getting tabled in your games? We are obviously playing a different game then because....stuff dies really fast in this edition (except for conscripts)

My typical 2k list is 1500-1750 points of superheavy tank, and the rest is regular IG stuff (usually 2 infantry squads, a scion squad, and some change).

Even with that ridiculous amount of firepower, I'm lucky to destroy 1 unit per turn if I concentrate fire, and the same can be said for them - they're lucky to down a Baneblade in a single turn; that's never actually happened yet.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Kind of like it's obvious that when you focus your best units to kill 3 point modles when you are getting blasted by heavy artillery losing 4-5x more points per turn - you auto lose the game. This should be obvious.

So Tactical Squads are your best units now?

No, I completely dismiss the tactical squad suggestion.

Hey man, your words not mine.

I was refering to mass razorbacks and other suggestions that at least make sense - but just don't make sense mathmatically. Tactical squads make sense in no way or form. You will struggle to find a worse unit in the game. Maybe a dire avenger is worse.

Then why are we worried about how conscripts match up to tacticals? "Omg! This one unit is better (marginally) than the second-worst unit in the game! OP!!!"

Perhaps we should compare conscripts to Storm Ravens or Terminators or something ... tell me, what's another OP unit we can compare conscripts to? Brimstone horrors?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Asmodios wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
What games are you playing that are decided by objectives? Out of the 15 games of 8th ive played so far - 1 came down to objectives but we practically tabled each other as we each had about 10 wounds left on the board and were shooting duds for 2 turns.

The majority of games I've played or rolled up have come down to objectives. I think there are only 1-2 you can roll on both tables that are straight kill points. They then obviously have slay the warlord, line breaker and first blood. Most games come down to objectives that I've played maybe some areas people aren't rolling for what missions they are playing and are just doing kill points?

People aren't getting tabled in your games? We are obviously playing a different game then because....stuff dies really fast in this edition (except for conscripts)

My typical 2k list is 1500-1750 points of superheavy tank, and the rest is regular IG stuff (usually 2 infantry squads, a scion squad, and some change).

Even with that ridiculous amount of firepower, I'm lucky to destroy 1 unit per turn if I concentrate fire, and the same can be said for them - they're lucky to down a Baneblade in a single turn; that's never actually happened yet.

Do you want me to start listing 300 point unit/unit combos that can kill a storm raven in a single turn? Because they do exist. We are struggling to find 500 point combinations that can kill 150 point conscript squads in a single turn. Do you see the issue? Plus you can't bring a full army of storm ravens anymore (which was the only issue anyways as it ensured first strike 100% of the time)

 Xenomancers wrote:

Asmodios wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
What games are you playing that are decided by objectives? Out of the 15 games of 8th ive played so far - 1 came down to objectives but we practically tabled each other as we each had about 10 wounds left on the board and were shooting duds for 2 turns.

The majority of games I've played or rolled up have come down to objectives. I think there are only 1-2 you can roll on both tables that are straight kill points. They then obviously have slay the warlord, line breaker and first blood. Most games come down to objectives that I've played maybe some areas people aren't rolling for what missions they are playing and are just doing kill points?

People aren't getting tabled in your games? We are obviously playing a different game then because....stuff dies really fast in this edition (except for conscripts)

Ive only witnessed 2 games where armies got tabled and one ahas when i stole the first turn from an ad mech player who deployed as if he was getting the first turn to reach some good cover that also had objectives. Different meta in my area i guess but while armies are obviously getting thinned out very few have been tabled

 Xenomancers wrote:
We are struggling to find 500 point combinations that can kill 150 point conscript squads in a single turn. Do you see the issue?

Yeah. The issue is that you're trying to do it in a single turn with a limited number of resources, and shooting only, apparently.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Then why are we worried about how conscripts match up to tacticals? "Omg! This one unit is better (marginally) than the second-worst unit in the game! OP!!!"

400 points of marines in rapid fire range kills 18 conscripts

401 points of conscripts+buffs (100 conscripts+commissar+officer+searchlights) in rapid fire range kill 22 marines.

(Math: 400 shots, 200 hit, 66 wound, 22 after saves)

I mean, obviously this isn't fair because I'm counting buffed conscripts against vanilla marines, but to just say "tactical marines beat conscripts" shows such sloppy thinking. I mean come on, these threads have been all over the boards for a month or more now - at least TRY to think about why that might be.

400 points of marines kills 46 points of conscripts a turn. 400 points of conscripts kills 252 points of marines a turn. Go ahead and nit-pick about how marines can all get into rapid-fire range slightly easier than conscripts can - it doesn't change the overwhelmingly massive discrepancy..

And all the math I've seen in all these threads showing how they're also more durable is brushed off as "well that's why you take them"

Both together is just stupidly, stupidly good.

I am sorry for copy/pasting my own quote, but how is this (marginally) better? Or are you saying they're only marginally better without orders (I never know when we're making that assumption or not) in which case I agree. Tactical marines are not good but they are the closest thing to a baseline that this game has, so being equal to them is essentially fine, being a little better is all most generalist units strive for. Even without orders conscripts will still leave tac marines in the dust and be a good unit, just not an OP monster.

 Deathypoo wrote:


Thought I'd include a super detailed high tech image of my normal opponent's typical deployment (200 points). This'd be his preferred corner-to-corner set up. Hopefully you can see the image.

The box in the corner is all his heavy weapons teams, searchlights, and a few tanks. The two boxes in front of that are 7x7 conscript boxes. The little tails are exactly 6", meaning they don't actually need much of a tail at this point. The red line is the outer edge of his rapid fire threat range, and green is long range (both after moving). The dashed line is his anti-drop bubble.

If he needs to LOS block the officers he can put a tank on either side of them. There's normally a hill or something in that corner so his heavy weapons teams aren't having any LOS problems.

I have a feeling you will say "he isn't actually bubblewrapping his back line" but consider that I cannot get from outside his rapid fire range to his back line. I can put my whole army in that zone in order to reach his back line but the amount of damage that allows me to do to his back line doesn't compare to the damage 400 total shots I take from the conscripts. They brutalize me. If I ping his conscripts from my max range, his much longer ranged-back line picks me apart. It's not pretty.

Okay, so I think I'm starting to better understand this a little. It sounds like he's not playing the game; he's playing the table. Do you like this guy? Sounds like he would get on my nerves quite a bit.

Anyway, I think the problem is that you went into this wanting a solution when really you need to convey a message. if that's literally the only thing he does every time, I recommend the following list:

(2000 points)
Supreme Command Detachment:
5x Autach w/ Fusion Gun
Supreme Command Detachment:
5x Autach w/ Fusion Gun
Supreme Command Detachment:
5x Autach w/ Fusion Gun
Supreme Command Detachment:
5x Autach w/ Fusion Gun
Supreme Command Detachment:
2x Autach w/ Fusion Gun

You can mix and match a few weapons and maybe add warlocks to double your fun, but the base premise is the same. That list says "You like characters? So do it. I will be the reason why we cannot have nice things. feth off kindly and lets have a reasonable game next time." because now he has to chew through 22 5W characters with 4++ that he has to measure to each one to figure out which one is the closest, and he can only ever shoot at one at a time with everything he has, and he gets to play his game where he hides in the corner, rolling dice, and you get to play your game where you take all the rest of the objectives and enjoy that blast markers don't exist anymore. The fusion guns are on the off chance that he sees the writing on the wall and starts moving his tanks out toward you.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
We are struggling to find 500 point combinations that can kill 150 point conscript squads in a single turn. Do you see the issue?

Yeah. The issue is that you're trying to do it in a single turn with a limited number of resources, and shooting only, apparently.

You do realize that practically any infantry unit that charges a conscript unit loses out in the process right? They have insane overwatch...are fearless...and can fall back and shoot. What does a unit gain by charging conscripts other than losing more points in the end? If they couldn't fall back and shoot you'd have a point - but they can.

Because, apparently, the only way those crying about conscripts can proven their point is by stacking limitation upon limitation, constantly moving the goalposts. Show us how to remove conscripts in a couple turns for equal cost, you can't do that it's impossible! So I showed that some assault marines, vanguard veterans, or death company could remove a conscript squad in a couple turns. NOT GOOD ENOUGH! Show us how to remove them in one turn! Okay. I showed that less than 500 points of tacticals + HQ could outright delete a conscript squad. Now show us how you can remove the conscript squad entirely in one turn at range for less than 500 points without putting any units in danger!

The hyperbole is real, yo. This is why we can't have a civil discussion on conscripts. Stop moving the goalposts, calm down, stop hyperventilating, and realize that it's a freaking board game where you move plastic soldiers around and roll dice while making "pew pew" sounds in your head.

 Deathypoo wrote:

I have a feeling you will say "he isn't actually bubblewrapping his back line" but consider that I cannot get from outside his rapid fire range to his back line. I can put my whole army in that zone in order to reach his back line but the amount of damage that allows me to do to his back line doesn't compare to the damage 400 total shots I take from the conscripts. They brutalize me. If I ping his conscripts from my max range, his much longer ranged-back line picks me apart. It's not pretty.

This is the general experience. My games look a little different, since they usually have a ruins, and wedged inside that ruins are manticores. So they bubble wrap the front and the sides to push back charge radius. It's less rapid fire shots, but it means that i physically cannot see the 4+ manticores that squash a huge chunk of my army every turn, so ranging them down isn't an option.

I have to take the fight to them, but i can't get through the conscripts.

here is every game against imperial guard right now for me:

1. Can't shoot the tanks.
2. Must kill the conscripts.
3. Try to kill the conscripts, or get around them somehow.
4. Fail, every single time, and lose.

I have tried:
1. Twin Linked assault cannons (razorbacks, land raiders, et al). Investing so heavily in these tanks means the rest of your list is underpowered. You will not be able to kill Leman Russes with this list, but they sure can kill you.

2. Incinerator spam (effectively 3.5 auto-hits from an assault cannon, expected) (My heavy, purgation squads). If these guys get close they do damage, but at 33 points per model, even if each one kills 6 conscripts a turn, they're not making their points back by a mile, and they can't weather a lasgun shots - orders or not.

3. Mass Storm Bolters in cover to whittle them down, delivered into rapid-fire range by deep strike (my PAGK). This is the best option, for me, really. I have a 2+ save because of cover. But manticores and wyverns say no, here are mass dice to ensure you lose models.

4. Jumping over them with interceptors (my only FA). Another thing that works reasonably well, but it's a 2-turn gambit at LEAST, and it only works on bad guard players who don't understand they can retreat with their conscripts to keep my jump post-deep strike or disembark in front of them, so at best i'm charging conscripts again.

5. Charging them with heavy bodies (Paladins /w nemesis falchions). 10x paladins = 30 wounds, and 40 falchion attacks at strength 4 ap-2. Doesn't that sound menacing and like the perfect weapon for conscripts? Problem: Even with my reroll bubble from Draigo, these guys are gonna kill between 20-26 conscripts. Half the blob. Then, they get annihilated. Oh, and they cost a paltry 550, + Draigo, for 790 points. This is also assuming that they and Draigo nail the charge. If i fail that charge, the Paladins get mopped up, because your tanks deal D3 damage.

6. Bringing Lascannons, or other heavy weapons (razorbacks, land raiders) failed miserably since i can't see his tanks, but they can shoot me. I have to spend my first turn moving, assuming it's physically possible for me to see the tanks. So, i'm getting shot without returning fire for a turn. Then, turn 2, i'm in range, but i moved, and i'm degraded, so hitting on 5s, or rolling a lot less dice. Then turn 3 comes around, and my tanks are just popping and degrading left and right.

Now it could be i'm a terrible player as has been insinuated. Maybe I need to "Get Good." But for goodness sake, this is frustrating.

I have an ITC tournament tomorrow and I can guarantee you i'll be facing Guard at least twice.

Here's my list:

Draigo
Celestine
5x Incinerator Purgators, riding in Raven
5x Gatling Psilencer Purgators, deployed in cover for turn 1 gate
5x Interceptors, deployed on the table
5x Interceptors, deployed on the table
5x Terminators /w falchions, riding in a Raven
1x Dakka Nemesis Dreadknight /w Teleporter
1x Dakka Raven + Melta
1x Dakka Raven + Melta

The basic gist is to do a wicked gnarly alpha strike. Draigo gives rerolls to 5 purgators, 10 interceptors, 2 ravens, 1 nemesis dreadknight, turn 1. That's 138 strength 4 dice, attacking anywhere on the board from my deployment zone. Celestine will also act of cheese and charge turn 1. Turn 2 the burners and the terminators get out and start doing their thing.

Explain why I suck

 daedalus wrote:

 Deathypoo wrote:


Thought I'd include a super detailed high tech image of my normal opponent's typical deployment (200 points). This'd be his preferred corner-to-corner set up. Hopefully you can see the image.

The box in the corner is all his heavy weapons teams, searchlights, and a few tanks. The two boxes in front of that are 7x7 conscript boxes. The little tails are exactly 6", meaning they don't actually need much of a tail at this point. The red line is the outer edge of his rapid fire threat range, and green is long range (both after moving). The dashed line is his anti-drop bubble.

If he needs to LOS block the officers he can put a tank on either side of them. There's normally a hill or something in that corner so his heavy weapons teams aren't having any LOS problems.

I have a feeling you will say "he isn't actually bubblewrapping his back line" but consider that I cannot get from outside his rapid fire range to his back line. I can put my whole army in that zone in order to reach his back line but the amount of damage that allows me to do to his back line doesn't compare to the damage 400 total shots I take from the conscripts. They brutalize me. If I ping his conscripts from my max range, his much longer ranged-back line picks me apart. It's not pretty.

Okay, so I think I'm starting to better understand this a little. It sounds like he's not playing the game; he's playing the table. Do you like this guy? Sounds like he would get on my nerves quite a bit.

Anyway, I think the problem is that you went into this wanting a solution when really you need to convey a message. if that's literally the only thing he does every time, I recommend the following list:

(2000 points)
Supreme Command Detachment:
5x Autach w/ Fusion Gun
Supreme Command Detachment:
5x Autach w/ Fusion Gun
Supreme Command Detachment:
5x Autach w/ Fusion Gun
Supreme Command Detachment:
5x Autach w/ Fusion Gun
Supreme Command Detachment:
2x Autach w/ Fusion Gun

You can mix and match a few weapons and maybe add warlocks to double your fun, but the base premise is the same. That list says "You like characters? So do it. I will be the reason why we cannot have nice things. feth off kindly and lets have a reasonable game next time." because now he has to chew through 22 5W characters with 4++ that he has to measure to each one to figure out which one is the closest, and he can only ever shoot at one at a time with everything he has, and he gets to play his game where he hides in the corner, rolling dice, and you get to play your game where you take all the rest of the objectives and enjoy that blast markers don't exist anymore. The fusion guns are on the off chance that he sees the writing on the wall and starts moving his tanks out toward you.

I don't understand why you think he's being TFG. I like him, he's nice, and he's only deploying his guard the way I would. I don't hate the player, I hate the game lol.

Also, working out the math for that last would be a pain, but it doesn't sound like it would do very well at all. He's always got a lot of small units of heavy weapons teams, and each one would delete an autarch each time it fired. He has 20+ units and almost all of them are probably capable of deleting an autarch each time they fire. Meanwhile I'd do almost nothing to his infantry units at all, and I'd have to foot slog through all his shooting to actually reach his back line...