Xenomancers wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
We are struggling to find 500 point combinations that can kill 150 point conscript squads in a single turn. Do you see the issue?

Yeah. The issue is that you're trying to do it in a single turn with a limited number of resources, and shooting only, apparently.

You do realize that practically any infantry unit that charges a conscript unit loses out in the process right? They have insane overwatch...

 Deathypoo wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Then why are we worried about how conscripts match up to tacticals? "Omg! This one unit is better (marginally) than the second-worst unit in the game! OP!!!"

400 points of marines in rapid fire range kills 18 conscripts

401 points of conscripts+buffs (100 conscripts+commissar+officer+searchlights) in rapid fire range kill 22 marines.

(Math: 400 shots, 200 hit, 66 wound, 22 after saves)

I mean, obviously this isn't fair because I'm counting buffed conscripts against vanilla marines, but to just say "tactical marines beat conscripts" shows such sloppy thinking. I mean come on, these threads have been all over the boards for a month or more now - at least TRY to think about why that might be.

400 points of marines kills 46 points of conscripts a turn. 400 points of conscripts kills 252 points of marines a turn. Go ahead and nit-pick about how marines can all get into rapid-fire range slightly easier than conscripts can - it doesn't change the overwhelmingly massive discrepancy..

And all the math I've seen in all these threads showing how they're also more durable is brushed off as "well that's why you take them"

Both together is just stupidly, stupidly good.

I am sorry for copy/pasting my own quote, but how is this (marginally) better? Or are you saying they're only marginally better without orders (I never know when we're making that assumption or not) in which case I agree. Tactical marines are not good but they are the closest thing to a baseline that this game has, so being equal to them is essentially fine, being a little better is all most generalist units strive for. Even without orders conscripts will still leave tac marines in the dust and be a good unit, just not an OP monster.

 Insectum7 wrote:
If insane overwatch is killing like... 2 guys? Besides there's always the charge with a Rhino first option. Which goes under the category of LRN2PlyNub, Get gud, et al. btw.

Asmodios wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

Asmodios wrote:
"I am primarily objecting to #3, combined with #2 just a bit. I'm not trying to play a gimmick list, so the bubblewrap doesn't bother me. Two conscript squads give me at least 4 dead cards in my maelstrom deck, and give them 4 auto score cards. The concripts are cheap enough that they can do this and bring all the anti-infantry and anti-tank they could ever need. The conscripts leave too many points left over for the IG to work with. "
The thing with #3 is melee. Any army with a decent CC unit can get it in and you are either forced to run or they will just crush you over a few turns. This happened to me against CSM army last night. You get beat down in CC and you either have to run (giving up the objective thats the whole point) and while you are doing that the conscripts can't do there real job which is screening your good stuff. Once again they are very good but i think many of those crying broken haven't seen conscripts in practice. Id be fine with conscripts losing orders honestly though because in reality there true purpose is just being meat shields and the orders are just a useful bonus and makes your opponent have to play with half a brain and not park a unit 2' from a conscript blob

The melee units get crippled before they can assault. Or they assault, kill 20 guys, and then get erased. IG guy can afford to lose 20 conscripts in exchange for a HTH unit all day. IG firebase is too big and they have too many wounds on the table. Hard stop. I don't know many other ways to explain this. And yes, I'm playing IG guys building the most abusive stuff they can think of. Gak happens.

"will just crush you over a few turns"

This is fine for the IG player. He is paying a 150 pt squad to buy time holding off 300+ pts. No matter what you do, it's a win-win-win for the IG.

Im not sure who you are playing against but the opponents i have played against have had zero problems getting to me turn one (orks with weird boy jump turn one charge. CSM with terminator deep strike turn one charge followed up by rhino bezerkers and DP turn 2 charges. Harliquins getting their entire army across the board turn 1) almost every army i have played against has had something get in turn 1 and only a single game have i managed to steal the first turn. If you lose 20 conscripts you now also run into two problems 1. the unit is getting close to combat ineffective levels where your opponent no longer has to worry about any real damage output. 2. You are now stuck in CC if you fall back your bubble wrap most likely is not working anymore (either something was killed out with the 20 wounds, you had to fall back out of bubble wrapping everything or you placed so far away people can now multi charge into your units behind next turn). Realistically conscripts buy you one turn of shooting with your good stuff and thats only if you use them to conga line which means no FRFSRF bubble and no objective holding. Yes they would be broken if everyone was foot slogging across the board with no protection but thats another issue. With the amount of turn 1 charge possibilities this edition conscripts give guard a turn of bubble wrap, sometimes this is good enough sometimes its not. Just curious have you played against it several different times with different armies? I've now used them against several different players with completely different armies and list and they are good but i haven't found them broken at all.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
We are struggling to find 500 point combinations that can kill 150 point conscript squads in a single turn. Do you see the issue?

Yeah. The issue is that you're trying to do it in a single turn with a limited number of resources, and shooting only, apparently.

 Melissia wrote:
Because, apparently, the only way those crying about conscripts can proven their point is by stacking limitation upon limitation, constantly moving the goalposts. Show us how to remove conscripts in a couple turns for equal cost, you can't do that it's impossible! So I showed that some assault marines, vanguard veterans, or death company could remove a conscript squad in a couple turns. NOT GOOD ENOUGH! Show us how to remove them in one turn! Okay. I showed that less than 500 points of tacticals + HQ could outright delete a conscript squad. Now show us how you can remove the conscript squad entirely in one turn at range for less than 500 points without putting any units in danger!

The hyperbole is real, yo. This is why we can't have a civil discussion on conscripts. Stop moving the goalposts, calm down, stop hyperventilating, and realize that it's a freaking board game where you move plastic soldiers around and roll dice while making "pew pew" sounds in your head.

 Melissia wrote:
In this thread: People saying they wish they could table guard in three turns, and that they could do it if only conscripts were horrendously nerfed to the point of uselessness.

 Melissia wrote:
In this thread: People saying they wish they could table guard in three turns, and that they could do it if only conscripts were horrendously nerfed to the point of uselessness.

 Xenomancers wrote:
First you are wrong - 500 points of tacticals can not delete a conscript unit

 Melissia wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
If insane overwatch is killing like... 2 guys? Besides there's always the charge with a Rhino first option. Which goes under the category of LRN2PlyNub, Get gud, et al. btw.

Or for extra fun, you can deep stirke some reivers and toss their grenades. Suddenly, no overwatch, AND any surviving conscripts (of which there probably won't be any, but you might roll poorly) hit on 6s in the fight phase afterwards, literally halving their already pathetic attack capability and also reducing their already pathetic leadership to 3(!!!) once you get rid of the commissar.

sossen wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
In this thread: People saying they wish they could table guard in three turns, and that they could do it if only conscripts were horrendously nerfed to the point of uselessness.

*Could do it a fair amount of the time if conscripts were less efficient.

Xenomancers wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Because, apparently, the only way those crying about conscripts can proven their point is by stacking limitation upon limitation, constantly moving the goalposts. Show us how to remove conscripts in a couple turns for equal cost, you can't do that it's impossible! So I showed that some assault marines, vanguard veterans, or death company could remove a conscript squad in a couple turns. NOT GOOD ENOUGH! Show us how to remove them in one turn! Okay. I showed that less than 500 points of tacticals + HQ could outright delete a conscript squad. Now show us how you can remove the conscript squad entirely in one turn at range for less than 500 points without putting any units in danger!

The hyperbole is real, yo. This is why we can't have a civil discussion on conscripts. Stop moving the goalposts, calm down, stop hyperventilating, and realize that it's a freaking board game where you move plastic soldiers around and roll dice while making "pew pew" sounds in your head.

First you are wrong - 500 points of tacticals can not delete a conscript unit even in maricle land where 39 tactical marines make it into rapid fire range undammaged - averages 23 killed conscripts in shooting - they all make their charges and kill 12 more. 23+12 = 35. Still 15 conscripts left.

Second - that situation would never arise. 40 tactical marines marching up the field gets obliterated by just about anything.

Martel732 wrote:Someone's math is wrong, then. It does't matter, though, because that many intact tactical marines will never get there.

 Melissia wrote:

sossen wrote:

 ross-128 wrote:
It takes about 3x the cost of anti-infantry shooting for most things to remove (supported) conscripts

Do you have some figures for that?

In a single turn, definitely takes about that much. And it should.

Let's see though.

Spoiler:

Captain w/MCBG and chainsword
Primaris Lieutenant
As such, all 1s on to-hit and to-wound are rerolled.
4 tactical squads w/combiflamer, flamer.
Flamers: 8d6 auto hits, average 28 hits, 3+ to wound reroll 1s, 21.778, 14.5 models removed from flamers.
Combi-boltguns: 8 shots, 4+ hit reroll 1s, 4.667 hits, 3+ to wound reroll 1s, 4.148 wounds, about 3 models removed from sarge boltgun-mode combiflamers.
Boltguns+MCABR: 34 shots, 3+ hit reroll 1s, 26.445 hits, 3+ to wound reroll 1s, 20.568 wounds, 14 models removed from squaddie boltguns and the Lt's MCABR.
Mastercrafted Boltgun: 2 shots, 2+ to hit reroll 1s, 1.945 hits, 3+ to wound reroll 1s, 1.296 wounds, 1 model removed from the captain.

Then they assault. Captain, Lt, and 4 squads all use grenades. Captain rolled separately because separate to-hit, 3.5 average attacks, hit on 2+ rerolling misses, 3.403 hits, wounding on 4+ rerolling 1s, 1.985 wounds, 1 and a third model removed by the cap's grenade. Other 5 grenades average 17.5 attacks, 3+ to hit reroll 1s, 13.611 hits, wounding on 4+ rerolling 1s, 7.940 wounds, and 5.293 models removed.

So in total, before the assault phase after the grenades-- which is a charge, so the tacticals hit first-- they have already removed 39 models, then in the assault phase, they get 28 hitting on 3+ from the tac squads, 9 hitting on 2+ from the characters, all wounding in 3+, rerolling 1s to hit and to wound. 21.778 hits from tacs, 16.938 wounds, 11 models removed. The squad is already gone before the characters get to attack. Marines consolidates 3", preferably in to cover, and get ready for the opponent's turn, sans conscripts.

Yeah that's about right; 4 tac squads and a pair of HQs* manage to frekaing delete an entire 50-man conscript squad in one turn without taking any damage, and without taking in to account any chapter tactics. And that's tacticals, I should remind you. To give an understatement of the century, tacticals aren't exactly the super-best op-pls-nerf unit in the Marine army list according to most people on this forum.

*To be clear, I chose this particular grouping because this was less than 3x the cost of a conscript squad and support. This is around 491 points; a unit of conscripts needs at least a platoon commander and commissar, putting them at 201 points, and even a company commander and commissar split across two squads of conscripts is still 180 points per conscript squad.

 Melissia wrote:

sossen wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
In this thread: People saying they wish they could table guard in three turns, and that they could do it if only conscripts were horrendously nerfed to the point of uselessness.

*Could do it a fair amount of the time if conscripts were less efficient.

No. People have been suggesting ridiculous things like lower their toughness to 2, reduce their WS and BS to 6+, reduce their armor save to 6+ or even no armor at all, no orders, can't benefit from commissars, takes additional wounds from commissars, making them unable to take squads of larger than ten, and a wide variety of other nonsense.

So your correction is wrong.

 Melissia wrote:
No. People have been suggesting ridiculous things like lower their toughness to 2, reduce their WS and BS to 6+, reduce their armor save to 6+ or even no armor at all, no orders, can't benefit from commissars, takes additional wounds from commissars, making them unable to take squads of larger than ten, and a wide variety of other nonsense.

So your correction is wrong.

 Melissia wrote:
My math was slightly off. I should have had less grenades thrown, because I forgot that you choose to throw a grenade instead of firing a weapon. Doesn't change the fact that they can delete the conscript squad.

sossen wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
No. People have been suggesting ridiculous things like lower their toughness to 2, reduce their WS and BS to 6+, reduce their armor save to 6+ or even no armor at all, no orders, can't benefit from commissars, takes additional wounds from commissars, making them unable to take squads of larger than ten, and a wide variety of other nonsense.

So your correction is wrong.

I was simply referring to what I am writing ITT. Most of the people arguing with you are saying that conscripts are too good and need to be fair, not terrible.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

sossen wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
No. People have been suggesting ridiculous things like lower their toughness to 2, reduce their WS and BS to 6+, reduce their armor save to 6+ or even no armor at all, no orders, can't benefit from commissars, takes additional wounds from commissars, making them unable to take squads of larger than ten, and a wide variety of other nonsense.

So your correction is wrong.

I was simply referring to what I am writing ITT. Most of the people arguing with you are saying that conscripts are too good and need to be fair, not terrible.

So remove orders, and they become fair, not terrible, nor OP. I'm not the only one saying that.

 Melissia wrote:
My math was slightly off. I should have had less grenades thrown, because I forgot that you choose to throw a grenade instead of firing a weapon. Doesn't change the fact that they can delete the conscript squad.

Martel732 wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
My math was slightly off. I should have had less grenades thrown, because I forgot that you choose to throw a grenade instead of firing a weapon. Doesn't change the fact that they can delete the conscript squad.

But they can't. Because real list building and real game play. If you bring that package against mech Eldar, you are going to get murdered like little bitches. Quit list tailoring.

sossen wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
My math was slightly off. I should have had less grenades thrown, because I forgot that you choose to throw a grenade instead of firing a weapon. Doesn't change the fact that they can delete the conscript squad.

If they get to that range unscathed, and they have to spend at least two turns to do it if you include the transport turn. This is still 500 pts dealing with 180-200 pts of conscripts. I don't think it's feasible.

 Melissia wrote:
Because, apparently, the only way those crying about conscripts can proven their point is by stacking limitation upon limitation, constantly moving the goalposts. Show us how to remove conscripts in a couple turns for equal cost, you can't do that it's impossible! So I showed that some assault marines, vanguard veterans, or death company could remove a conscript squad in a couple turns. NOT GOOD ENOUGH! Show us how to remove them in one turn! Okay. I showed that less than 500 points of tacticals + HQ could outright delete a conscript squad. Now show us how you can remove the conscript squad entirely in one turn at range for less than 500 points without putting any units in danger!

The hyperbole is real, yo. This is why we can't have a civil discussion on conscripts. Stop moving the goalposts, calm down, stop hyperventilating, and realize that it's a freaking board game where you move plastic soldiers around and roll dice while making "pew pew" sounds in your head.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
So remove orders, and they become fair, not terrible, nor OP. I'm not the only one saying that.

 Melissia wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:
First you are wrong - 500 points of tacticals can not delete a conscript unit

My math already proved they can. In fact, they overkilled the conscripts by a large margin.

Martel732 wrote:
One person says moving the goalposts, another might say that her initial premises have no basis in reality, and so therefore her conclusions also have no basis in reality.

I'm not moving MY goalposts anyway because I am looking for a TAC-friendly option for BA to deal with this. Not a tailored one. I'm not even completely convinced that tailored options can carry the day. But putting down options that straight up lose to mech is not a viable option.