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IG do appear to be a little OP in 8th edition, but I don't see conscripts as the source.

Saying this as a CSM player. The natural counter for conscripts is Berzerkers and they don't have a problem with large blobs. The opponents I face seem to understand this well enough, aside from a couple games at the start of 8th edition they have mostly left the table.

Am honestly more concerned with cheap squads with lots of plasma and lascannons. It just feels like they can field so many heavy weapons it negates the advantage of scenery, there's always an angle to get at my tanks with things that cause multiple wounds.

 Melissia wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
So remove orders, and they become fair, not terrible, nor OP. I'm not the only one saying that.

In fact, the person who said it first was Katherine, not any of the people here who are complaining about conscripts. And she even did the mathhammer to show that to make conscripts balanced offensively, you can make such a minor adjustment as having them only successfully follow an Order on a roll of 3+.

I haven't seen any mathhammer that supported this conclusion, where did she say that?

sossen wrote:
I never said that you can't deal with conscripts with 2-3x the number of points if you are allowed to get into melee range. I was questioning the validity of pure anti-infantry shooting being that efficient.

And why should conscripts be deletable in 1 phase of shooting alone? And if they could, they would become useless against melee armies, since all the melee army would have to do is spend that 1 turn deleting them with shooting and then charge over their corpses in the same turn.

Being able to obliterate conscripts for roughly equal points with shooting alone completely removes their function in the IG armylist.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
One person says moving the goalposts, another might say that her initial premises have no basis in reality, and so therefore her conclusions also have no basis in reality.

I'm not moving MY goalposts anyway because I am looking for a TAC-friendly option for BA to deal with this. Not a tailored one. I'm not even completely convinced that tailored options can carry the day. But putting down options that straight up lose to mech is not a viable option.

Try bringing 6 TLAC predators and nailing their tanks, outright ignoring the conscripts? That's only ~1200 points, so you'll be able to deep-strike onto all the non-conscript objectives with assault squads pretty easy once the IG tanks have been evaporated.

Well, in each of my three games there was AT LEAST 4 tanks I couldn't shoot. I keep upping my lascannon counts, but it's not helping. I'm considering going dual ravens one with DC one with assault terminators. I had such hopes for 8th and BA are back in the toilet already. Feth.

sossen wrote:
I never said that you can't deal with conscripts with 2-3x the number of points if you are allowed to get into melee range. I was questioning the validity of pure anti-infantry shooting being that efficient.

This is the going consensus from the defenders that you should have to bring mutiple more points than the cost of the conscript unit to destroy them - it's totally okay that in this process you are getting shelled by artillery probably trading 500 points to kill a 150 point script unit.

 techsoldaten wrote:
IG do appear to be a little OP in 8th edition, but I don't see conscripts as the source.

Saying this as a CSM player. The natural counter for conscripts is Berzerkers and they don't have a problem with large blobs. The opponents I face seem to understand this well enough, aside from a couple games at the start of 8th edition they have mostly left the table.

Am honestly more concerned with cheap squads with lots of plasma and lascannons. It just feels like they can field so many heavy weapons it negates the advantage of scenery, there's always an angle to get at my tanks with things that cause multiple wounds.

I mentioned a few pages ago that this is a multilayered problem.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

sossen wrote:
I never said that you can't deal with conscripts with 2-3x the number of points if you are allowed to get into melee range. I was questioning the validity of pure anti-infantry shooting being that efficient.

And why should conscripts be deletable in 1 phase of shooting alone? And if they could, they would become useless against melee armies, since all the melee army would have to do is spend that 1 turn deleting them with shooting and then charge over their corpses in the same turn.

Being able to obliterate conscripts for roughly equal points with shooting alone completely removes their function in the IG armylist.

I agree with everything you just said. I have never implied that you should be able to kill conscripts with an equal amount of points at range in one or two turns.

Actually, I think conscripts should have a hard counter like plasma/grav vs terminators. Why should terminators have a hard counter, but not conscripts? It's like terrans taking on mass zerglings with no hellions. Actually, the lack of a hard counter for these guys is the crux of the entire issue in a sense.

 Deathypoo wrote:

I don't understand why you think he's being TFG. I like him, he's nice, and he's only deploying his guard the way I would. I don't hate the player, I hate the game lol.

Also, working out the math for that last would be a pain, but it doesn't sound like it would do very well at all. He's always got a lot of small units of heavy weapons teams, and each one would delete an autarch each time it fired. He has 20+ units and almost all of them are probably capable of deleting an autarch each time they fire. Meanwhile I'd do almost nothing to his infantry units at all, and I'd have to foot slog through all his shooting to actually reach his back line...

I don't know what the rest of his list looks like, but, but he's got about a 50% chance of not doing any damage with each lascannon HWS. On top of that, he's got a 28% chance of not dealing enough damage to one to kill it with a single squad firing. You may need to throw some warlocks in there to add a few more turns of wasting firepower, but any wounded Autarchs left over you can just move slightly further away than one of the others, and then he has to shoot at them for a while. So he'd probably need at least 3 HWS to kill a single Autarch, and that's likely his most effective means of doing so, so over the course of the game, he'd be removing 5-6 Autarchs / 3 HWS. Maybe pad out with the Warlocks, just to be safe, but it would take far longer than you think it would. Unless he moves out of that corner, I'm not sure how he'd win objectives before the end of the round.

 Xenomancers wrote:

sossen wrote:
I never said that you can't deal with conscripts with 2-3x the number of points if you are allowed to get into melee range. I was questioning the validity of pure anti-infantry shooting being that efficient.

This is the going consensus from the defenders that you should have to bring mutiple more points than the cost of the conscript unit to destroy them - it's totally okay that in this process you are getting shelled by artillery probably trading 500 points to kill a 150 point script unit.

Shoot them back?

sossen wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

sossen wrote:
I never said that you can't deal with conscripts with 2-3x the number of points if you are allowed to get into melee range. I was questioning the validity of pure anti-infantry shooting being that efficient.

And why should conscripts be deletable in 1 phase of shooting alone? And if they could, they would become useless against melee armies, since all the melee army would have to do is spend that 1 turn deleting them with shooting and then charge over their corpses in the same turn.

Being able to obliterate conscripts for roughly equal points with shooting alone completely removes their function in the IG armylist.

I agree with everything you just said. I have never implied that you should be able to kill conscripts with an equal amount of points at range in one or two turns.

Then what are you looking for?

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
One person says moving the goalposts, another might say that her initial premises have no basis in reality, and so therefore her conclusions also have no basis in reality.

I'm not moving MY goalposts anyway because I am looking for a TAC-friendly option for BA to deal with this. Not a tailored one. I'm not even completely convinced that tailored options can carry the day. But putting down options that straight up lose to mech is not a viable option.

Try bringing 6 TLAC predators and nailing their tanks, outright ignoring the conscripts? That's only ~1200 points, so you'll be able to deep-strike onto all the non-conscript objectives with assault squads pretty easy once the IG tanks have been evaporated.

Even if you manage to kill their indirect fire tanks with LOS las cannons - this is a losing game too. The conscripts just move up and sit on objectives. 1200 points of preds have nothing for the 150 conscripts.

sossen wrote:
I never said that you can't deal with conscripts with 2-3x the number of points if you are allowed to get into melee range. I was questioning the validity of pure anti-infantry shooting being that efficient.

You only need two rhinos to get the tacticals I mentioned in to range, as you can fit two five-man tactical squads in each rhino. Rhinos are superb vehicles in this edition, incredibly difficult to destroy especially after popping smoke.

At toughness seven with ten wounds and a 3+ save, it takes on average five IG lascannon shots to apply damage to a single rhino that popped smoke, and it will on average do 3.5 damage per unsaved wound, meaning on average you'll need 13-15 lascannons or lascannon equivalents in order to destroy a single rhino. A manticore-- you know, that op-pls-nerf unit that these conscripts are defending?-- would cause on average 2 damage to the rhino on the turn the rhino popped smoke, which isn't even enough damage to reduce its stats!

Martel732 wrote:
Actually, I think conscripts should have a hard counter like plasma/grav vs terminators. Why should terminators have a hard counter, but not conscripts? It's like terrans taking on mass zerglings with no hellions. Actually, the lack of a hard counter for these guys is the crux of the entire issue in a sense.

DING DING DING

The counter should be leadership - it's compeltely negated by a unit you were taking anyways to fill hq requirement.

Martel732 wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
One person says moving the goalposts, another might say that her initial premises have no basis in reality, and so therefore her conclusions also have no basis in reality.

I'm not moving MY goalposts anyway because I am looking for a TAC-friendly option for BA to deal with this. Not a tailored one. I'm not even completely convinced that tailored options can carry the day. But putting down options that straight up lose to mech is not a viable option.

Try bringing 6 TLAC predators and nailing their tanks, outright ignoring the conscripts? That's only ~1200 points, so you'll be able to deep-strike onto all the non-conscript objectives with assault squads pretty easy once the IG tanks have been evaporated.

Well, in each of my three games there was AT LEAST 4 tanks I couldn't shoot. I keep upping my lascannon counts, but it's not helping. I'm considering going dual ravens one with DC one with assault terminators. I had such hopes for 8th and BA are back in the toilet already. Feth.

One of the neat things about predators is that they can move. Put 3 on each flank, and drive them down. If he can somehow hide from all of your tanks for 3 turns with his artillery when they're spread out on both flanks, then you're playing on a board I've never seen.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Actually, I think conscripts should have a hard counter like plasma/grav vs terminators. Why should terminators have a hard counter, but not conscripts? It's like terrans taking on mass zerglings with no hellions. Actually, the lack of a hard counter for these guys is the crux of the entire issue in a sense.

DING DING DING

Why should a unit designed purely for durability have an insta-delete counter-unit that can ignore or otherwise overcome its durability?

And how would you avoid such a massive volume of anti-infantry shooting tearing up the rest of the infantry in the game as well?

 Melissia wrote:

sossen wrote:
I never said that you can't deal with conscripts with 2-3x the number of points if you are allowed to get into melee range. I was questioning the validity of pure anti-infantry shooting being that efficient.

You only need two rhinos to get the tacticals I mentioned in to range, as you can fit two five-man tactical squads in each rhino. Rhinos are superb vehicles in this edition, incredibly difficult to destroy especially after popping smoke.

What about the characters?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

sossen wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

sossen wrote:
I never said that you can't deal with conscripts with 2-3x the number of points if you are allowed to get into melee range. I was questioning the validity of pure anti-infantry shooting being that efficient.

And why should conscripts be deletable in 1 phase of shooting alone? And if they could, they would become useless against melee armies, since all the melee army would have to do is spend that 1 turn deleting them with shooting and then charge over their corpses in the same turn.

Being able to obliterate conscripts for roughly equal points with shooting alone completely removes their function in the IG armylist.

I agree with everything you just said. I have never implied that you should be able to kill conscripts with an equal amount of points at range in one or two turns.

Then what are you looking for?

Three turns.

Martel732 wrote:
Actually, I think conscripts should have a hard counter like plasma/grav vs terminators. Why should terminators have a hard counter, but not conscripts? It's like terrans taking on mass zerglings with no hellions. Actually, the lack of a hard counter for these guys is the crux of the entire issue in a sense.

There is a hard counter.

It's snipers. You take out the support, Conscripts fold en masse to shooting or combat.

This was an issue in the early days of Age of Sigmar, where the Bloodsecrator made mass Bloodreavers able to ignore Battleshock tests.
Armies that had quality shooting units that let them take out the Bloodsecrators gave no feths.

Terminators are also designed for "durability". Durability that they never actually get to experience in the game, though.

"Why should a unit designed purely for durability have an insta-delete unit that can ignore or otherwise overcome its durability? "

Because that's what a hard counter does; it counters the scheme of a unit. Now, if you want a game with NO hard counters, that's fine, but 40K has plenty of hard counters right now.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Actually, I think conscripts should have a hard counter like plasma/grav vs terminators. Why should terminators have a hard counter, but not conscripts? It's like terrans taking on mass zerglings with no hellions. Actually, the lack of a hard counter for these guys is the crux of the entire issue in a sense.

There is a hard counter.

It's snipers. You take out the support, Conscripts fold en masse to shooting or combat.

This was an issue in the early days of Age of Sigmar, where the Bloodsecrator made mass Bloodreavers able to ignore Battleshock tests.
Armies that had quality shooting units that let them take out the Bloodsecrators gave no feths.

Snipers need LoS. IG can make their commissars immortal by abusing this fact. It's happened all three times I played against them because they assumed I had snipers somewhere. Plus, snipers work slowly. If the board isn't cleared up movement-wise by turn 3ish, BA have already lost the objective game on the way to being tabled.

I recently played a 3k game against Space Wolves. He had the standard space wolf stuff plus a Las predator and 2 knights. I think we called it after turn 3 because he had Bjorn and like 2 blood claws left.

Guess how many conscripts I used in the game and what they accomplished? I used 50 and had about 20 left. I think they killed 4 scouts and 3 blood claws. So, I think we can agree that offensively they are not very potent. What they DID do was psychologically impact my opponent. They also prevented a land raider crusader from just driving into that flank. He nearly destroyed 3 of my battle tanks, a Basilisk, and a dune crawler. He killed maybe a squad of guardsmen.

We played Dawn of war deployment, I think. So my front was 6' long. I don't think conscripts were the problem ... I think the guard infantry were immensely buffed with the rules changes. I think templates went away helped us, but also hamper us offensively. I think people are stuck in 7th edition ways of list building and playing. I think my buddy may have suffered a bit to his lack of cohesive battle plan and Target Priority.

We play with a lot more terrain, and specifically, LoS blocking stuff in comparison to 7th. The point is, the conscripts were there to sit on OBJs and block a portion of the table. He chose to wade into them when the vast majority of my army wasn't even behind them. He chose a list that was Uber elite despite our previous games showing him that he wanted more blood claws to be spit out of his flyers right in front of me because I can't shoot aircraft for anything.

I know this is 1 example. But I've played many games in 8th and not once has my opponent said, "the conscripts definitely won you that game!" You know what they do hate? All my my mortar heavy weapons squads. Deep striking Scions. My massed guard squads preventing back line deep strikes. My eversor Assassin hitting their back line followed up by rough Riders. My ratlings finishing off whatever character my Vindicare wounded.

With so many other annoying units, I am honestly blown away by how much the conscripts are hated. Lol

Martel732 wrote:
Terminators are also designed for "durability". Durability that they never actually get to experience in the game, though.

"Why should a unit designed purely for durability have an insta-delete unit that can ignore or otherwise overcome its durability? "

Because that's what a hard counter does; it counters the scheme of a unit. Now, if you want a game with NO hard counters, that's fine, but 40K has plenty of hard counters right now.

How are those storm bolters and powerfists helping their durability? Or those thunder hammers?

Also... yes, 40k has hard counters. But conscripts are engineered specifically to be durable. Their hard counter should not be something that can kill them - it should be something that can ignore them. The typical problem of 'tanks' in MMOs is that they need a taunt or some way to keep the enemy's attention. It's the same with conscripts - they're designed to be durable meat-shields for the rest of the army, and you can overcome that problem by shooting the rest of the army and ignoring them.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Actually, I think conscripts should have a hard counter like plasma/grav vs terminators. Why should terminators have a hard counter, but not conscripts? It's like terrans taking on mass zerglings with no hellions. Actually, the lack of a hard counter for these guys is the crux of the entire issue in a sense.

There is a hard counter.

It's snipers. You take out the support, Conscripts fold en masse to shooting or combat.

This was an issue in the early days of Age of Sigmar, where the Bloodsecrator made mass Bloodreavers able to ignore Battleshock tests.
Armies that had quality shooting units that let them take out the Bloodsecrators gave no feths.

It's been said a thousand times. You cannot snipe a commissar, in practice. It just isn't possible.

 Colonel Cross wrote:
With so many other annoying units, I am honestly blown away by how much the conscripts are hated. Lol

I'm mostly worried because I don't know if GW will change them. Scions on the other hand seem destined to be nerfed.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Terminators are also designed for "durability". Durability that they never actually get to experience in the game, though.

"Why should a unit designed purely for durability have an insta-delete unit that can ignore or otherwise overcome its durability? "

Because that's what a hard counter does; it counters the scheme of a unit. Now, if you want a game with NO hard counters, that's fine, but 40K has plenty of hard counters right now.

How are those storm bolters and powerfists helping their durability? Or those thunder hammers?

Also... yes, 40k has hard counters. But conscripts are engineered specifically to be durable. Their hard counter should not be something that can kill them - it should be something that can ignore them. The typical problem of 'tanks' in MMOs is that they need a taunt or some way to keep the enemy's attention. It's the same with conscripts - they're designed to be durable meat-shields for the rest of the army, and you can overcome that problem by shooting the rest of the army and ignoring them.

But that doesn't score me any objectives. That's just playing into the hands of the IG. He's denied me half the table with 300 pts of bodies. I can't get close without dying or getting tarpitted. The hard counter needs to kill them. That's why it's a hard counter.

And I bet equal points of conscripts have more offense than equal points of terminators. So why then, ever field a terminator?

sossen wrote:

 Colonel Cross wrote:
With so many other annoying units, I am honestly blown away by how much the conscripts are hated. Lol

I'm mostly worried because I don't know if GW will change them. Scions on the other hand seem destined to be nerfed.

I still don't think conscripts need changing aside from the Order thing (if GW doesn't change that, then I agree there's a problem).


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Terminators are also designed for "durability". Durability that they never actually get to experience in the game, though.

"Why should a unit designed purely for durability have an insta-delete unit that can ignore or otherwise overcome its durability? "

Because that's what a hard counter does; it counters the scheme of a unit. Now, if you want a game with NO hard counters, that's fine, but 40K has plenty of hard counters right now.

How are those storm bolters and powerfists helping their durability? Or those thunder hammers?

Also... yes, 40k has hard counters. But conscripts are engineered specifically to be durable. Their hard counter should not be something that can kill them - it should be something that can ignore them. The typical problem of 'tanks' in MMOs is that they need a taunt or some way to keep the enemy's attention. It's the same with conscripts - they're designed to be durable meat-shields for the rest of the army, and you can overcome that problem by shooting the rest of the army and ignoring them.

But that doesn't score me any objectives. That's just playing into the hands of the IG. He's denied me half the table with 300 pts of bodies. I can't get close without dying or getting tarpitted. The hard counter needs to kill them. That's why it's a hard counter.

In my experience, you don't have to hard-counter a unit to score objectives that said unit is on. You just need to kill a few, and then get near the objective with tactical-marines who auto-score regardless of relative model-numbers. 'Killing a few' conscripts does not require a hard counter.

sossen wrote:
What about the characters?

Third rhino or a razorback-- the latter of which can add additional firepower on the turn the squad disembarks, especially with a twin assault cannon

Yes, I'm saying you need to focus fire with a lot of points at once in order to delete conscripts. They're a unit whose entire purpose is to be hard to delete. If Conscripts are going to be nerfed to hell and back, then so should Rhinos. Even using 3-lascannon weapon teams, the cheapest option Guard has, it would take on average 360 points for the Imperial Guard to take down your single 70 point rhino on turn one if it popped smoke-- more than five times the points of a rhino spent in dedicated, fragile anti-tank units in ordet to remove what is little more than a simple metal box. Which you could remove with something as simple as a couple heavy bolter devastator teams.

It's actually more efficient for space marines to take down conscripts than it is for the imperial guard to take down rhinos.

Killing a few doesn't help if there are 30+ between me and the objective. Conscripts physically blocked my DC from an objective for 4 assault rounds. Remember that temporal cost I was talking about? It's killer. Although this is moot if I'm getting tabled, which I am. It's like Tau all over again.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Melissia wrote:

sossen wrote:
What about the characters?

Third rhino or a razorback-- the latter of which can add additional firepower on the turn the squad disembarks, especially with a twin assault cannon

Yes, I'm saying you need to focus fire with a lot of points at once in order to delete conscripts. They're a unit whose entire purpose is to be hard to delete. If Conscripts are going to be nerfed to hell and back, then so should Rhinos. Even using 3-lascannon weapon teams, the cheapest option Guard has, it would take on average 360 points for the Imperial Guard to take down your single 70 point rhino on turn one if it popped smoke-- more than five times the points of a rhino spent in dedicated, fragile anti-tank units in ordet to remove what is little more than a simple metal box. Which you could remove with something as simple as a couple heavy bolter devastator teams.

It's actually more efficient for space marines to take down conscripts than it is for the imperial guard to take down rhinos.

I don't believe that for a second. 3 pts a model is crazy cheap.

Martel732 wrote:
Killing a few doesn't help if there are 30+ between me and the objective. Conscripts physically blocked my DC from an objective for 4 assault rounds. Remember that temporal cost I was talking about? It's killer. Although this is moot if I'm getting tabled, which I am. It's like Tau all over again.

If you're getting tabled by cannons, kill the cannons (the conscripts aren't tabling you, especially if they lose orders).

If you can't get to objectives, fly over the conscript squads. Blood Angels are literally the army that uses assault marines (Flying) units in the fluff.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Killing a few doesn't help if there are 30+ between me and the objective. Conscripts physically blocked my DC from an objective for 4 assault rounds. Remember that temporal cost I was talking about? It's killer. Although this is moot if I'm getting tabled, which I am. It's like Tau all over again.

If you're getting tabled by cannons, kill the cannons (the conscripts aren't tabling you, especially if they lose orders).

If you can't get to objectives, fly over the conscript squads. Blood Angels are literally the army that uses assault marines (Flying) units in the fluff.

I'm getting tabled by everything. There is no single thing that I can point at other than conscripts that deny me half the table. Plasma scions don't help, that's for sure. Neither does the other cheap plasma, nor the cheap lascannons. Again, I faced 6 tanks, 4 tanks, and 5 tanks I couldn't even see. They can't be killed.

The conscripts are ON the objectives. Flying over them is useless. Plus, they will quadratap me the next turn because whatever I assault can walk out of combat. They must be dealt with at some point.

Martel732 wrote:
Killing a few doesn't help if there are 30+ between me and the objective. Conscripts physically blocked my DC from an objective for 4 assault rounds. Remember that temporal cost I was talking about? It's killer. Although this is moot if I'm getting tabled, which I am. It's like Tau all over again.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Melissia wrote:

sossen wrote:
What about the characters?

Third rhino or a razorback-- the latter of which can add additional firepower on the turn the squad disembarks, especially with a twin assault cannon

Yes, I'm saying you need to focus fire with a lot of points at once in order to delete conscripts. They're a unit whose entire purpose is to be hard to delete. If Conscripts are going to be nerfed to hell and back, then so should Rhinos. Even using 3-lascannon weapon teams, the cheapest option Guard has, it would take on average 360 points for the Imperial Guard to take down your single 70 point rhino on turn one if it popped smoke-- more than five times the points of a rhino spent in dedicated, fragile anti-tank units in ordet to remove what is little more than a simple metal box. Which you could remove with something as simple as a couple heavy bolter devastator teams.

It's actually more efficient for space marines to take down conscripts than it is for the imperial guard to take down rhinos.

I don't believe that for a second. 3 pts a model is crazy cheap.

70pts of conscripts is 23 conscripts. 2 squads of Heavy Bolter Devastators (220 pts, if my math is right) kills them in 2 turns. That's 3 times the cost, not 5 times the cost.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Killing a few doesn't help if there are 30+ between me and the objective. Conscripts physically blocked my DC from an objective for 4 assault rounds. Remember that temporal cost I was talking about? It's killer. Although this is moot if I'm getting tabled, which I am. It's like Tau all over again.

If you're getting tabled by cannons, kill the cannons (the conscripts aren't tabling you, especially if they lose orders).

If you can't get to objectives, fly over the conscript squads. Blood Angels are literally the army that uses assault marines (Flying) units in the fluff.

I'm getting tabled by everything. There is no single thing that I can point at other than conscripts that deny me half the table. Plasma scions don't help, that's for sure. Neither does the other cheap plasma, nor the cheap lascannons. Again, I faced 6 tanks, 4 tanks, and 5 tanks I couldn't even see. They can't be killed.

What terrain are you using that a tank is invisible from 3 directions? Because I've played on tables with LOS blocking terrain with LRBTs and my LRBTs are still eventually able to get LOS on basilisks, etc. with their guns, even if it takes a turn or two of maneuvering first.

EDIT: Guh, your edits after posting make it hard to follow your stuff.

If they're physically ON the objective, to the point where removing ~30-50% of the unit as casualties still doesn't let you get within 3" then they're probably only on that one, so they get 1 objective per squad of conscripts brought, and that's only on their half of the table. 100 conscripts get 2 objectives. Woo? are you losing to an army that can only deny you 2 objectives? My Baneblades can deny you three!

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Killing a few doesn't help if there are 30+ between me and the objective. Conscripts physically blocked my DC from an objective for 4 assault rounds. Remember that temporal cost I was talking about? It's killer. Although this is moot if I'm getting tabled, which I am. It's like Tau all over again.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Melissia wrote:

sossen wrote:
What about the characters?

Third rhino or a razorback-- the latter of which can add additional firepower on the turn the squad disembarks, especially with a twin assault cannon

Yes, I'm saying you need to focus fire with a lot of points at once in order to delete conscripts. They're a unit whose entire purpose is to be hard to delete. If Conscripts are going to be nerfed to hell and back, then so should Rhinos. Even using 3-lascannon weapon teams, the cheapest option Guard has, it would take on average 360 points for the Imperial Guard to take down your single 70 point rhino on turn one if it popped smoke-- more than five times the points of a rhino spent in dedicated, fragile anti-tank units in ordet to remove what is little more than a simple metal box. Which you could remove with something as simple as a couple heavy bolter devastator teams.

It's actually more efficient for space marines to take down conscripts than it is for the imperial guard to take down rhinos.

I don't believe that for a second. 3 pts a model is crazy cheap.

70pts of conscripts is 23 conscripts. 2 squads of Heavy Bolter Devastators (220 pts, if my math is right) kills them in 2 turns. That's 3 times the cost, not 5 times the cost.

Gotta be honest, and it sounds like whining, but 2 turns of delay is too slow against the IG. I need them gone NOW to play my game. I've got 1500 pts of OTHER IG stuff that I can't outshoot that I have to assault. I can't wait around 2 turns. I won't have anything left.

"What terrain are you using that a tank is invisible from 3 directions?"

They don't need 3 directions. They only need the front. Getting on the sides gets within the conscript quadratap death zone. As well as mass plasma, etc.