How would you prefer games workshop to tone down conscripts?

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**sossen**

Unit1126PLL wrote:
70pts of conscripts is 23 conscripts. 2 squads of Heavy Bolter Devastators (220 pts, if my math is right) kills them in 2 turns. That's 3 times the cost, not 5 times the cost.

In two turns that's no problem.

**Unit1126PLL**

Martel732 wrote:
Unit1126PLL wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
Killing a few doesn't help if there are 30+ between me and the objective. Conscripts physically blocked my DC from an objective for 4 assault rounds. Remember that temporal cost I was talking about? It's killer. Although this is moot if I'm getting tabled, which I am. It's like Tau all over again.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Melissia wrote:
sossen wrote:
What about the characters?

Third rhino or a razorback-- the latter of which can add additional firepower on the turn the squad disembarks, especially with a twin assault cannon

Yes, I'm saying you need to focus fire with a lot of points at once in order to delete conscripts. They're a unit whose entire purpose is to be hard to delete. If Conscripts are going to be nerfed to hell and back, then so should Rhinos. Even using 3-lascannon weapon teams, the cheapest option Guard has, it would take on average 360 points for the Imperial Guard to take down your single 70 point rhino on turn one if it popped smoke-- more than five times the points of a rhino spent in dedicated, fragile anti-tank units in ordet to remove what is little more than a simple metal box. Which you could remove with something as simple as a couple heavy bolter devastator teams.

It's actually more efficient for space marines to take down conscripts than it is for the imperial guard to take down rhinos.

I don't believe that for a second. 3 pts a model is crazy cheap.

70pts of conscripts is 23 conscripts. 2 squads of Heavy Bolter Devastators (220 pts, if my math is right) kills them in 2 turns. That's 3 times the cost, not 5 times the cost.

Gotta be honest, and it sounds like whining, but 2 turns of delay is too slow against the IG. I need them gone NOW to play my game. I've got 1500 pts of OTHER IG stuff that I can't outshoot that I have to assault. I can't wait around 2 turns. I won't have anything left.

"What terrain are you using that a tank is invisible from 3 directions?"

They don't need 3 directions. They only need the front. Getting on the sides gets within the conscript quadratap death zone. As well as mass plasma, etc.

Stop saying conscript quadratap. I agree they need orders removed. You're on my team on that one. It's doubletap.

So:
Predator squadron up the flank will, on average, kill an artillery tank or two with every volley. The return fire from the conscripts won't kill a predator (1.8 wounds if in rapid-fire with all 50 in a blob... 3.6 wounds with FRFSRF).

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
Unit1126PLL wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
Killing a few doesn't help if there are 30+ between me and the objective. Conscripts physically blocked my DC from an objective for 4 assault rounds. Remember that temporal cost I was talking about? It's killer. Although this is moot if I'm getting tabled, which I am. It's like Tau all over again.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Melissia wrote:
sossen wrote:
What about the characters?

Third rhino or a razorback-- the latter of which can add additional firepower on the turn the squad disembarks, especially with a twin assault cannon

Yes, I'm saying you need to focus fire with a lot of points at once in order to delete conscripts. They're a unit whose entire purpose is to be hard to delete. If Conscripts are going to be nerfed to hell and back, then so should Rhinos. Even using 3-lascannon weapon teams, the cheapest option Guard has, it would take on average 360 points for the Imperial Guard to take down your single 70 point rhino on turn one if it popped smoke-- more than five times the points of a rhino spent in dedicated, fragile anti-tank units in ordet to remove what is little more than a simple metal box. Which you could remove with something as simple as a couple heavy bolter devastator teams.

It's actually more efficient for space marines to take down conscripts than it is for the imperial guard to take down rhinos.

I don't believe that for a second. 3 pts a model is crazy cheap.

70pts of conscripts is 23 conscripts. 2 squads of Heavy Bolter Devastators (220 pts, if my math is right) kills them in 2 turns. That's 3 times the cost, not 5 times the cost.

Gotta be honest, and it sounds like whining, but 2 turns of delay is too slow against the IG. I need them gone NOW to play my game. I've got 1500 pts of OTHER IG stuff that I can't outshoot that I have to assault. I can't wait around 2 turns. I won't have anything left.

"What terrain are you using that a tank is invisible from 3 directions?"

They don't need 3 directions. They only need the front. Getting on the sides gets within the conscript quadratap death zone. As well as mass plasma, etc.

sossen wrote:
Unit1126PLL wrote:
70pts of conscripts is 23 conscripts. 2 squads of Heavy Bolter Devastators (220 pts, if my math is right) kills them in 2 turns. That's 3 times the cost, not 5 times the cost.

In two turns that's no problem.

So in two turns not enough? You really need to delete them in one shooting phase.

this is getting ridiculous.

You are trying to remove conscripts from the game.

**Marmatag**

2 heavy bolter squads at 36" only do an expected 9 wounds, assuming they didn't move.

So, it would be 5 turns.

**Xenomancers**

Colonel Cross wrote:

I recently played a 3k game against Space Wolves. He had the standard space wolf stuff plus a Las predator and 2 knights. I think we called it after turn 3 because he had Bjorn and like 2 blood claws left.

Guess how many conscripts I used in the game and what they accomplished? I used 50 and had about 20 left. I think they killed 4 scouts and 3 blood claws. So, I think we can agree that offensively they are not very potent. What they DID do was psychologically impact my opponent. They also prevented a land raider crusader from just driving into that flank. He nearly destroyed 3 of my battle tanks, a Basilisk, and a dune crawler. He killed maybe a squad of guardsmen.

We played Dawn of war deployment, I think. So my front was 6' long. I don't think conscripts were the problem ... I think the guard infantry were immensely buffed with the rules changes. I think templates went away helped us, but also hamper us offensively. I think people are stuck in 7th edition ways of list building and playing. I think my buddy may have suffered a bit to his lack of cohesive battle plan and Target Priority.

We play with a lot more terrain, and specifically, LoS blocking stuff in comparison to 7th. The point is, the conscripts were there to sit on OBJs and block a portion of the table. He chose to wade into them when the vast majority of my army wasn't even behind them. He chose a list that was Uber elite despite our previous games showing him that he wanted more blood claws to be spit out of his flyers right in front of me because I can't shoot aircraft for anything.

I know this is 1 example. But I've played many games in 8th and not once has my opponent said, "the conscripts definitely won you that game!" You know what they do hate? All my my mortar heavy weapons squads. Deep striking Scions. My massed guard squads preventing back line deep strikes. My eversor Assassin hitting their back line followed up by rough Riders. My ratlings finishing off whatever character my Vindicare wounded.

With so many other annoying units, I am honestly blown away by how much the conscripts are hated. Lol

In a 3k game you brought 50 conscripts for 150 points. OFC they didn't have a big impact - it's only 5% of your army. Not to mention at 3k you can easily fill your entire deployment zone - you don't need conscripts in this situation. at 1500 to 2000. There is a lot more open space and you can literally deny all of it to your opponent with like 3 units of conscripts. Still though...lets say you brought 200 conscripts. You still would have won the game. Probably a lot easier.

**daedalus**

These threads haven't really progressed since Mel showed how to play Space Marines.

I'm done here. Everyone have fun.

**Martel732**

They cost 150 pts + a commissar. I don't think they should get to cost 800 pts of BA two whole turns. That's a ridiculous return on investment. Yet, that's exactly what they do.

The IG people are in here acting like we have the old assault phase back. We don't. Assaulting your tanks does very little usually. The tank can back out and the entire IG list shoot my guys AGAIN. And AGAIN.

That's why I can't afford the two turn delay from a source as cheap as conscripts. I NEED to start chopping those tanks asap, or by turn 3 , I don't have a game.

As I said, preds can't see the artillery, so that doesn't work at all. Preds can't outflank. The terrain we are talking about is about 6 in high and 14 in wide.

**Melissia**

2 squads of devastators is 210 points.

Without HQ support, bonuses from chapter tactics, or stratagems, and assuming the sarges are out of range and unupgraded, they'll kill on average 11.11 conscripts a turn, or just shy of one for every two shots.

**sossen**

Unit1126PLL wrote:So in two turns not enough? You really need to delete them in one shooting phase.

this is getting ridiculous.

You are trying to remove conscripts from the game.

I never said that anything of the sort. What I am saying is that heavy bolter devastators only kill one sixth of their own pts value of conscripts per turn. If you want to misconstrue the meaning of this stat then I will call you out on it.

For reference, the same heavy bolter devastators will kill one third of their own pts value of tactical marines or ork boyz per turn.

**Martel732**

daedalus wrote:
These threads haven't really progressed since Mel showed how to play Space Marines.

I'm done here. Everyone have fun.

I know you are bowing out, but my marine lists would crush her lists that use the units she's been suggesting. I know marine vs marine better than almost any matchup. It's a list tailoring "solution", and so is not valid.

**Kanluwen**

Marmatag wrote:
Kanluwen wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
Actually, I think conscripts should have a hard counter like plasma/grav vs terminators. Why should terminators have a hard counter, but not conscripts? It's like terrans taking on mass zerglings with no hellions. Actually, the lack of a hard counter for these guys is the crux of the entire issue in a sense.

There is a hard counter.

It's snipers. You take out the support, Conscripts fold en masse to shooting or combat.

This was an issue in the early days of Age of Sigmar, where the Bloodsecrator made mass Bloodreavers able to ignore Battleshock tests.
Armies that had quality shooting units that let them take out the Bloodsecrators gave no feths.

It's been said a thousand times. You cannot snipe a commissar, in practice. It just isn't possible.

It absolutely is.

You just have to accept that you might lose the snipers to return fire, if you chose to park them out in the open thinking they're invincible.

**Martel732**

Melissia wrote:
2 squads of devastators is 210 points.

Without HQ support, bonuses from chapter tactics, or stratagems, and assuming the sarges are out of range and unupgraded, they'll kill on average 11.11 conscripts a turn, or just shy of one for every two shots.

That's 33 pts. That's pathetic.

**Kanluwen**

Martel732 wrote:
Melissia wrote:
2 squads of devastators is 210 points.

Without HQ support, bonuses from chapter tactics, or stratagems, and assuming the sarges are out of range and unupgraded, they'll kill on average 11.11 conscripts a turn, or just shy of one for every two shots.

That's 33 pts. That's pathetic.

And what happens when those 11 Conscripts force a Morale test?

This is the issue here. Everyone wants to compare things in some kind of ridiculous vacuum where the Conscripts are always unstoppable.

**Unit1126PLL**

Martel732 wrote:
They cost 150 pts + a commissar. I don't think they should get to cost 800 pts of BA two whole turns. That's a ridiculous return on investment. Yet, that's exactly what they do.

The IG people are in here acting like we have the old assault phase back. We don't. Assault your tanks does very little usually. The tank can back out and the entire IG list shoot my guys AGAIN. And AGAIN.

That's why I can't afford the two turn delay from a source as cheap as conscripts. I NEED to start chopping those tanks asap, or by turn 3 , I don't have a game.

As I said, preds can't see the artillery, so that doesn't work at all. Preds can't outflank.

Multiassault the tanks...

And preds absolutely can outflank, just not the Outflank special rule. Put 3 against the board edge like this:

|P <The rest of the board> P|
|P <The rest of the board> P|
|P <The rest of the board> P|

And drive in a straight line. In two turns you'll be inside their DZ. On both sides.

I feel like I'm teaching space marines how to play space marines.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

sossen wrote:
Unit1126PLL wrote:So in two turns not enough? You really need to delete them in one shooting phase.

this is getting ridiculous.

You are trying to remove conscripts from the game.

I never said that anything of the sort. What I am saying is that heavy bolter devastators only kill one sixth of their own pts value of conscripts per turn. If you want to misconstrue the meaning of this stat then I will call you out on it.

For reference, the same heavy bolter devastators will kill one third of their own pts value of tactical marines or ork boyz per turn.

Good thing tactical marines and ork boys aren't only paying for durability, then, and have a considerable amount of their points tied up in other things unlike conscripts.

Seriously, shooting at conscripts is literally giving the enemy what they want. It's like focusing the enemy tank in a PVP MMO.

**Martel732**

Two turns is too slow. My game is already over.

I was aware I could DRIVE there, but that's not viable. Plus, we usually have some impassable along both edges at some point. So you have to move towards the center.

"Seriously, shooting at conscripts is literally giving the enemy what they want. It's like focusing the enemy tank in a PVP MMO."

I agree, but they block physical movement. With the old tank shock, I could play around it.

**Unit1126PLL**

Martel732 wrote:
Two turns is too slow. My game is already over.

I was aware I could DRIVE there, but that's not viable.

I realllllly need you to give me a VBR or at least a written battle report, because you're saying things that simply aren't true. 3 Predators is 33 T7 wounds... that's only for one of your squadrons. I doubt IG have the firepower to destroy a squadron in 2 turns, not to mention both squadrons.

**Melissia**

See what I mean?

Ultimately, this entire discussion comes down to players complaining that they can't steamroll their opponents and table them in two or three turns.

And that, dear posters, is why we can't have nice things.

**Unit1126PLL**

Martel732 wrote:
Two turns is too slow. My game is already over.

I was aware I could DRIVE there, but that's not viable.

"Seriously, shooting at conscripts is literally giving the enemy what they want. It's like focusing the enemy tank in a PVP MMO."

I agree, but they block physical movement. With the old tank shock, I could play around it.

They only block movement if they're spread out a ton, which not only reduces their firepower by a lot, but also allows you to force temporary openings in their lines to charge through by shooting them with lesser guns.

**Martel732**

Unit1126PLL wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
Two turns is too slow. My game is already over.

I was aware I could DRIVE there, but that's not viable.

I realllllly need you to give me a VBR or at least a written battle report, because you're saying things that simply aren't true. 3 Predators is 33 T7 wounds... that's only for one of your squadrons. I doubt IG have the firepower to destroy a squadron in 2 turns, not to mention both squadrons.

They're not killing the TANKS, or my firebase. They just ignore that stuff because it frankly sucks. They're killing my infantry with wyvern/manticore and then later, conscripts when I'm forced to get try to take an objective. They are taking away the things that roll lots of dice so their blobs become immortal.

**sossen**

Melissia wrote:
See what I mean?

Ultimately, this entire discussion comes down to players complaining that they can't steamroll their opponents and table them in two or three turns.

And that, dear posters, is why we can't have nice things.

If that's what you think is being said then you don't understand what those stats mean.

**Martel732**

Unit1126PLL wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
Two turns is too slow. My game is already over.

I was aware I could DRIVE there, but that's not viable.

"Seriously, shooting at conscripts is literally giving the enemy what they want. It's like focusing the enemy tank in a PVP MMO."

I agree, but they block physical movement. With the old tank shock, I could play around it.

They only block movement if they're spread out a ton, which not only reduces their firepower by a lot, but also allows you to force temporary openings in their lines to charge through by shooting them with lesser guns.

Yes,but they've got 1500-1600 points of OTHER STUFF to take care of those problems.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Melissia wrote:
See what I mean?

Ultimately, this entire discussion comes down to players complaining that they can't steamroll their opponents and table them in two or three turns.

And that, dear posters, is why we can't have nice things.

Not at all. Can't wait till you run into this gakstrom with your scouts and <LOL> terminators.

**Unit1126PLL**

Martel732 wrote:
Unit1126PLL wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
Two turns is too slow. My game is already over.

I was aware I could DRIVE there, but that's not viable.

I realllllly need you to give me a VBR or at least a written battle report, because you're saying things that simply aren't true. 3 Predators is 33 T7 wounds... that's only for one of your squadrons. I doubt IG have the firepower to destroy a squadron in 2 turns, not to mention both squadrons.

They're not killing the TANKS, or my firebase. They just ignore that stuff because it frankly sucks. They're killing my infantry with wyvern/manticore and then later, conscripts when I'm forced to get try to take an objective. They are taking away the things that roll lots of dice so their blobs become immortal.

So if they're not killing your tanks or your firebase, how are they tabling you every game?

**Melissia**

sossen wrote:
If that's what you think is being said then you don't understand what those stats mean.

Hey, whatever helps ya feel better, Sossen. I'm out.

**Unit1126PLL**

Melissia wrote:
sossen wrote:
If that's what you think is being said then you don't understand what those stats mean.
Hey, whatever helps ya feel better, Sossen. I'm out.

Yeah, I should've quit when it came to teaching people how to play their own army.

I'm out too, and I don't run conscripts anyways so I don't know why I bother. Nerf them out of the game, doesn't make a difference to me. I'll just be sad to see a fluffy unit go.

**Desubot**

Melissia wrote:
2 squads of devastators is 210 points.

Without HQ support, bonuses from chapter tactics, or stratagems, and assuming the sarges are out of range and unupgraded, they'll kill on average 11.11 conscripts a turn, or just shy of one for every two shots.

Is it really worth using heavy bolters?

you are wasting an extra Strength.

I figure ether going primarus bolt guns or the other way with assault cannons of some sort would be more efficient no?

**Martel732**

Unit1126PLL wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
Unit1126PLL wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
Two turns is too slow. My game is already over.

I was aware I could DRIVE there, but that's not viable.

I realllllly need you to give me a VBR or at least a written battle report, because you're saying things that simply aren't true. 3 Predators is 33 T7 wounds... that's only for one of your squadrons. I doubt IG have the firepower to destroy a squadron in 2 turns, not to mention both squadrons.

They're not killing the TANKS, or my firebase. They just ignore that stuff because it frankly sucks. They're killing my infantry with wyvern/manticore and then later, conscripts when I'm forced to get try to take an objective. They are taking away the things that roll lots of dice so their blobs become immortal.

So if they're not killing your tanks or your firebase, how are they tabling you every game?

They kill them LAST. They cripple my chop and then they outgun me 2:1 or 3:1 and it's over before it starts.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Unit1126PLL wrote:
Melissia wrote:
sossen wrote:
If that's what you think is being said then you don't understand what those stats mean.
Hey, whatever helps ya feel better, Sossen. I'm out.

Yeah, I should've quit when it came to teaching people how to play their own army.

I'm out too, and I don't run conscripts anyways so I don't know why I bother. Nerf them out of the game, doesn't make a difference to me. I'll just be sad to see a fluffy unit go.

You're not teaching me anything. I've used predators for 20 years. I was well aware I could EVENTUALLY get LoS on artillery tanks. It's a day late and a dollar short, though. What you suggest would only work with old outflank, and even then, only on a good reserve roll.

**Unit1126PLL**

Martel732 wrote:
Unit1126PLL wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
Unit1126PLL wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
Two turns is too slow. My game is already over.

I was aware I could DRIVE there, but that's not viable.

I realllllly need you to give me a VBR or at least a written battle report, because you're saying things that simply aren't true. 3 Predators is 33 T7 wounds... that's only for one of your squadrons. I doubt IG have the firepower to destroy a squadron in 2 turns, not to mention both squadrons.

They're not killing the TANKS, or my firebase. They just ignore that stuff because it frankly sucks. They're killing my infantry with wyvern/manticore and then later, conscripts when I'm forced to get try to take an objective. They are taking away the things that roll lots of dice so their blobs become immortal.

So if they're not killing your tanks or your firebase, how are they tabling you every game?

Okay so I know I said I was out but I can't help this:

They kill them LAST. They cripple my chop and then they outgun me 2:1 or 3:1 and it's over before it starts.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Unit1126PLL wrote:
Melissia wrote:
sossen wrote:
If that's what you think is being said then you don't understand what those stats mean.
Hey, whatever helps ya feel better, Sossen. I'm out.

Yeah, I should've quit when it came to teaching people how to play their own army.

I'm out too, and I don't run conscripts anyways so I don't know why I bother. Nerf them out of the game, doesn't make a difference to me. I'll just be sad to see a fluffy unit go.

You're not teaching me anything. I've used predators for 20 years. I was well aware I could EVENTUALLY get LoS on artillery tanks. It's a day late and a dollar short, though.

You know in matched play you can have your 800 points of choppy in reserve until the predators make it up the board to laser the artillery, right? Since you control when they come in, and they come in automatically on a turn of your choosing.

**sossen**

Desubot wrote:
Melissia wrote:
2 squads of devastators is 210 points.

Without HQ support, bonuses from chapter tactics, or stratagems, and assuming the sarges are out of range and unupgraded, they'll kill on average 11.11 conscripts a turn, or just shy of one for every two shots.

Is it really worth using heavy bolters?

you are wasting an extra Strength.

I figure ether going primarus bolt guns or the other way with assault cannons of some sort would be more efficient no?

Assault cannons are more efficient in this case but heavy bolters are quite cheap for what they do. Twin AC on a razorback is killing 1/5 of its own cost of conscripts per turn, though getting into range isn't trivial given that it doesn't have potms.

**Xenomancers**

Unit1126PLL wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
Unit1126PLL wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
Unit1126PLL wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
Two turns is too slow. My game is already over.

I was aware I could DRIVE there, but that's not viable.

I realllllly need you to give me a VBR or at least a written battle report, because you're saying things that simply aren't true. 3 Predators is 33 T7 wounds... that's only for one of your squadrons. I doubt IG have the firepower to destroy a squadron in 2 turns, not to mention both squadrons.

They're not killing the TANKS, or my firebase. They just ignore that stuff because it frankly sucks. They're killing my infantry with wyvern/manticore and then later, conscripts when I'm forced to get try to take an objective. They are taking away the things that roll lots of dice so their blobs become immortal.

So if they're not killing your tanks or your firebase, how are they tabling you every game?

Okay so I know I said I was out but I can't help this:

They kill them LAST. They cripple my chop and then they outgun me 2:1 or 3:1 and it's over before it starts.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Unit1126PLL wrote:
Melissia wrote:
sossen wrote:
If that's what you think is being said then you don't understand what those stats mean.
Hey, whatever helps ya feel better, Sossen. I'm out.

Yeah, I should've quit when it came to teaching people how to play their own army.

I'm out too, and I don't run conscripts anyways so I don't know why I bother. Nerf them out of the game, doesn't make a difference to me. I'll just be sad to see a fluffy unit go.

You're not teaching me anything. I've used predators for 20 years. I was well aware I could EVENTUALLY get LoS on artillery tanks. It's a day late and a dollar short, though.

You know in matched play you can have your 800 points of choppy in reserve until the predators make it up the board to laser the artillery, right? Since you control when they come in, and they come in automatically on a turn of your choosing.

You want him to to fight OP conscripts with half an army - and wait for what? The other half of the army to be destroyed?

**Slayer-Fan123**

Kanluwen wrote:
Martel732 wrote:
Actually, I think conscripts should have a hard counter like plasma/grav vs terminators. Why should terminators have a hard counter, but not conscripts? It's like terrans taking on mass zerglings with no hellions. Actually, the lack of a hard counter for these guys is the crux of the entire issue in a sense.

There is a hard counter.

It's snipers. You take out the support, Conscripts fold en masse to shooting or combat.

This was an issue in the early days of Age of Sigmar, where the Bloodsecrator made mass Bloodreavers able to ignore Battleshock tests.
Armies that had quality shooting units that let them take out the Bloodsecrators gave no feths.

Not every army has Snipers, and some of them are of questionable value in this scenario. Deathmarks, for instance, have a 24" range and function more as anti-Deep Strike than actually being a sniper.

**Unit1126PLL**

Xenomancers wrote:

You want him to to fight OP conscripts with half an army - and wait for what? The other half of the army to be destroyed?

Conscripts without orders aren't OP. And can't kill 66 T7 3+ wounds of predators in two shooting phases - in fact, I doubt the entire IG army can.