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They will then focus weapons that would have been directed at the infantry on the tanks. T7 is surprisingly vulnerable to wyverns, unfortunately. The wyvern is one weapon system for which I think the new system misrepresents badly compared to the old system.

BA, even more than other marines, must be able to achieve threat saturation. Reserves takes away from that, and conscripts basically ensure that I can never achieve threat saturation. And that's basically the long and short of it. Maybe Ultras can scam in enough Rowboat rerolls to come out ahead. But BA are fethed right now as far as I can tell. I must waste hundreds of die rolls on 3 pt models in most game scenarios. Period.

In some ways, it's even more humiliating than 7th ed Tau. At least I died in glorious pie plate blazes shot by immortal battle suits instead of losing to fearless scrubs.

Maybe chapter tactics will change the equation for the vanilla marines. The raven guard look super slick.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

You want him to to fight OP conscripts with half an army - and wait for what? The other half of the army to be destroyed?

Conscripts without orders aren't OP. And can't kill 66 T7 3+ wounds of predators in two shooting phases - in fact, I doubt the entire IG army can.

I'm not bringing six predators in a standard list, either. So it's not 66 wounds.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

You want him to to fight OP conscripts with half an army - and wait for what? The other half of the army to be destroyed?

Conscripts without orders aren't OP. And can't kill 66 T7 3+ wounds of predators in two shooting phases - in fact, I doubt the entire IG army can.

conscripts dont need to kill preds to make them useless - all they need to do is assault them and they can't shoot. Holy moley. One of the main rules in warfare is concentration of force. Dividing your own forces is helping the opponent. True in real life - true in this game too. Like are you seriously suggesting he reserve a whole bunch of units - and drive 9 las preds up the feild to get an angle on his artillery and just ignoring the fact hes probably losing 2-3 preds a turn to the IG gun line?

Martel732 wrote:
They will then focus weapons that would have been directed at the infantry on the tanks. T7 is surprisingly vulnerable to wyverns, unfortunately. The wyvern is one weapon system for which I think the new system misrepresents badly compared to the old system.

BA, even more than other marines, must be able to achieve threat saturation. Reserves takes away from that, and conscripts basically ensure that I can never achieve threat saturation. And that's basically the long and short of it. Maybe Ultras can scam in enough Rowboat rerolls to come out ahead. But BA are fethed right now as far as I can tell.

In some ways, it's even more humiliating than 7th ed Tau. At least I died in glorious pie plate blazes shot by immortal battle suits instead of losing to fearless scrubs.

Maybe chapter tactics will change the equation for the vanilla marines. The raven guard look super slick.

My math gets 1.3 wounds per wyvern against T7 3+... so no?

Martel732 wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

You want him to to fight OP conscripts with half an army - and wait for what? The other half of the army to be destroyed?

Conscripts without orders aren't OP. And can't kill 66 T7 3+ wounds of predators in two shooting phases - in fact, I doubt the entire IG army can.

I'm not bringing six predators in a standard list, either. So it's not 66 wounds.

Your loss. I would! I love tanks. Especially tank hunting tanks.

Conscripts would need to kill waveserpents and falcons, though. Wave serpents/falcons smoke the IG lascannons and then spend the rest of the game slaughtering everything else? Does that work?

"Your loss. I would! I love tanks. Especially tank hunting tanks. "

I have so many lists that would smoke any list with 1200 pts of lascannon predators in it. I can't even see how anyone thinks this is viable. That is hyper overspecializing.

I guess when Space Marines can do a shooting alpha-strike as well as Tau, can do shooting attrition as well as Guard, can melee as well as Tyranids, and can psyker as well as Daemons, "balance" will finally be achieved.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

You want him to to fight OP conscripts with half an army - and wait for what? The other half of the army to be destroyed?

Conscripts without orders aren't OP. And can't kill 66 T7 3+ wounds of predators in two shooting phases - in fact, I doubt the entire IG army can.

conscripts dont need to kill preds to make them useless - all they need to do is assault them and they can't shoot. Holy moley. One of the main rules in warfare is concentration of force. Dividing your own forces is helping the opponent. True in real life - true in this game too. Like are you seriously suggesting he reserve a whole bunch of units - and drive 9 las preds up the feild to get an angle on his artillery and just ignoring the fact hes probably losing 2-3 preds a turn to the IG gun line?

6* las preds.

If the conscripts charge them, while they're on either flank, they open up the center for his deep-strikers (voila!)

And 2-3 preds a turn? To what? The IG don't have THAT many lascannons. You need 11 IG lascannon shots per predator on average.

 ross-128 wrote:
I guess when Space Marines can do a shooting alpha-strike as well as Tau, can do shooting attrition as well as Guard, can melee as well as Tyranids, and can psyker as well as Daemons, "balance" will finally be achieved.

No. There's just a huge problem with generalists in this game. I'm really looking for 800 pts of my stuff to not be turned off by 150 pts. But they are. I already said that vanilla might be better off here than BA as well. Once again.

I can definitely say if a Guard list has 33 lascannons in it (that's 660 points just for the guns, never mind the things carrying them) or equivalent AT, they probably don't have very many points left for conscripts.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

You want him to to fight OP conscripts with half an army - and wait for what? The other half of the army to be destroyed?

Conscripts without orders aren't OP. And can't kill 66 T7 3+ wounds of predators in two shooting phases - in fact, I doubt the entire IG army can.

conscripts dont need to kill preds to make them useless - all they need to do is assault them and they can't shoot. Holy moley. One of the main rules in warfare is concentration of force. Dividing your own forces is helping the opponent. True in real life - true in this game too. Like are you seriously suggesting he reserve a whole bunch of units - and drive 9 las preds up the feild to get an angle on his artillery and just ignoring the fact hes probably losing 2-3 preds a turn to the IG gun line?

6* las preds.

If the conscripts charge them, while they're on either flank, they open up the center for his deep-strikers (voila!)

And 2-3 preds a turn? To what? The IG don't have THAT many lascannons. You need 11 IG lascannon shots per predator on average.

One thing you have to watch out for is smite spam by primaris psykers and astropaths. And don't forget about the scion squads. Each member of a plasma scion command squad deals 1.5 wounds to a predator when they drop.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

You want him to to fight OP conscripts with half an army - and wait for what? The other half of the army to be destroyed?

Conscripts without orders aren't OP. And can't kill 66 T7 3+ wounds of predators in two shooting phases - in fact, I doubt the entire IG army can.

conscripts dont need to kill preds to make them useless - all they need to do is assault them and they can't shoot. Holy moley. One of the main rules in warfare is concentration of force. Dividing your own forces is helping the opponent. True in real life - true in this game too. Like are you seriously suggesting he reserve a whole bunch of units - and drive 9 las preds up the feild to get an angle on his artillery and just ignoring the fact hes probably losing 2-3 preds a turn to the IG gun line?

6* las preds.

If the conscripts charge them, while they're on either flank, they open up the center for his deep-strikers (voila!)

And 2-3 preds a turn? To what? The IG don't have THAT many lascannons. You need 11 IG lascannon shots per predator on average.

Hummm...They have a whole host of weapons that murder multi wound modles. The worst offender is obviously the manticore. Battle cannons hurt way more than a las cannon too.

 ross-128 wrote:
I can definitely say if a Guard list has 33 lascannons in it (that's 660 points just for the guns, never mind the things carrying them) or equivalent AT, they probably don't have very many points left for conscripts.

That don't need that many, because no reasonable BA player is bringing six predators. That orks wound on a '5'. There are many more matchups than IG that make these wacky "counters" nonsense. Predators are quite flimsy for their cost. They're better than before, but still very glass cannony.

Half the IG defenders in this thread are defending the version of conscripts that can't take orders, which doesn't exist. I think most of the people still arguing that conscripts are OP are talking to the other half, so please keep that in mind.

As I'm reading more and more, it looks like ALL of the IG defenders in this thread don't actually field conscripts - or at least not conscripts with the OP support line up of commissars/officers/searchlights. And that also makes it hypocritical to accuse the complainers of not playing against IG. I can't speak for everyone, but why on earth would I be here complaining if I wasn't struggling against conscripts? I haven't been able to win against conscripts even once yet in 8e.

 Deathypoo wrote:
Half the IG defenders in this thread are defending the version of conscripts that can't take orders, which doesn't exist. I think most of the people still arguing that conscripts are OP are talking to the other half, so please keep that in mind.

As I'm reading more and more, it looks like ALL of the IG defenders in this thread don't actually field conscripts - or at least not conscripts with the OP support line up of commissars/officers/searchlights. And that also makes it hypocritical to accuse the complainers of not playing against IG. I can't speak for everyone, but why on earth would I be here complaining if I wasn't struggling against conscripts? I haven't been able to win against conscripts even once yet in 8e.

Because they need to teach you your army. Clearly.

 Melissia wrote:
2 squads of devastators is 210 points.

Without HQ support, bonuses from chapter tactics, or stratagems, and assuming the sarges are out of range and unupgraded, they'll kill on average 11.11 conscripts a turn, or just shy of one for every two shots.

Can you please share your math?

 Desubot wrote:
Is it really worth using heavy bolters?

you are wasting an extra Strength.

I figure ether going primarus bolt guns or the other way with assault cannons of some sort would be more efficient no?

I sent you a PM in response. I don't feel this thread is worth my time any more.

Even though the IG are the ones doing the steamrolling. But the BA are the ones who want the unfair advantages. Okay.

Martel732 wrote:

I have so many lists that would smoke any list with 1200 pts of lascannon predators in it. I can't even see how anyone thinks this is viable. That is hyper overspecializing.

This. That list would be curb stomped immediately it's hilarious.

The other side of the coin is that people haven't seen the poundings I've put on Orks and Tyranids with my tricky BA tech. Hordes aren't winning against me. CONSCRIPTS are. I've had DC plow through 80 hormagaunts over the course of one game before. I don't get an "over the course of" against IG. So what's different? Did I magically forget how to play BA in those games? Oblique attacks work great against most Ork/Nid lists. IG? Doesn't give a feth.

Well, consider this: you have an army where just about every model is both WS3+ and BS3+. They tend to have a roughly equal number of ranged and shooting attacks, of roughly equal strength. They have chapter masters that let them re-roll hits in shooting AND melee. You've got Rhinos that can absorb wounds about as well as Conscripts, while also performing the function of letting you get inside melee range quickly.

And you're here like "I want to shoot Guard off the board point for point, screw the other half of my stat line. Don't teach me how to play my army."

Maybe you should pay more attention to the fact that you've got two phases where your army is good at doing damage, so you should look for ways to leverage both? Otherwise you're literally wasting points, and then wondering why the result is so inefficient.

Now, I will say this: the army-wide krak grenades are a fairly large handicap to Space Marines right now. Because krak grenades ain't free, they're 1 point a model for armies that don't start with them. And with the current "one grenade rule", they're completely useless.

I've mentioned wanting krak grenades to return as a wargear option for Guard, but to be honest with the current grenade rules I'd never take them even if they did return. Or at most I would only hand it to a single model, whose sole job in the squad is to throw that grenade when he's not shooting his lasgun. If Space Marines could get rid of all their krak grenades to shave a point off every model, I'm sure they'd jump at the chance. Then again, I expected Space Marine players to be excited about "you can assault after firing Rapid Fire and Heavy weapons now", but all we got is "I want to shoot things off the table".

But really the only balanced way to handle "Space Marines pay for a lot of things that they rarely use" is to get rid of those things that they're not using, so they don't have to pay for it. But then you basically end up with a copy of a different faction's models. Or the ability to basically build any other faction's models, if you make all the stuff optional. If you do have all that stuff in your kit, it's on you to put it to work. Otherwise you're wasting points, and that's all there is to it.

I never said that. Not once. I'm looking for TAC solutions to 3pt dudes that are immune to psychology. BA seemingly have none.

Doesn't have to be shooting. But assaulting is not getting it done because of the damage coming in and damage after the IG jumps out of CC and shoots me more. I'm already doing both. But I can't throw enough dice, even using both phases. Punching through a 5+ save when wounding on a 3+ is slow going.

Marines can not leverage the WS 3+ and BS 3+ against guard with conscripts in the mix. They can't. The conscripts physically and mathematically prevent this if used properly. That's what I'm saying.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

sossen wrote:
If that's what you think is being said then you don't understand what those stats mean.

Hey, whatever helps ya feel better, Sossen. I'm out.

Yeah, I should've quit when it came to teaching people how to play their own army.

I'm out too, and I don't run conscripts anyways so I don't know why I bother. Nerf them out of the game, doesn't make a difference to me. I'll just be sad to see a fluffy unit go.

Continues to post 4 more times.

Martel732 wrote:
The other side of the coin is that people haven't seen the poundings I've put on Orks and Tyranids with my tricky BA tech. Hordes aren't winning against me. CONSCRIPTS are. I've had DC plow through 80 hormagaunts over the course of one game before. I don't get an "over the course of" against IG. So what's different? Did I magically forget how to play BA in those games? Oblique attacks work great against most Ork/Nid lists. IG? Doesn't give a feth.

Just a guess: You're getting shot.

Problem is you're not committed to the idea of shooting back very well. You have something you feel works against a bunch of armies, just not this combo of stuff. Instead of adapting to it by changing your overall strategy, you're saying it's OP because you cant do the same thing against this army, that you do against other armies.

I'm saying that I can't come up with an overall strategy for BA that gets around what the IG is doing. I had very different lists against the Orks and Tyranids each time. One of my lists even had missile launcher devs. *gasp*

The solutions for hordes in put in lists don't work vs Conscripts. The anti-tank I put in doesn't work vs tanks that are out of LoS. These things work vs Orks and Tyranids. That's my position.

The guy up above said to shoot less. You say to shoot more. My position gets stronger.

Maybe...assault?

But I want to shoot them!

Maybe...shoot the tanks behind them?

But I want to shoot the conscripts!

Martel732 wrote:

The guy up above said to shoot less. You say to shoot more. My position gets stronger.

Don't know who said shoot less, although it doesnt do anything for your position.

Post your list, and post the IG list. Basic strategy for marines vs. IG i use is general advance, and only deal with infantry at close range, first order of business is to trim down the enemy tanks/artillery.

Picture of the table would help.

I'll try to at least audio record my next match and take a picture of the table. But each quarter usually has one large LoS blocker and then a couple smaller things in the middle, and a few small things for infantry to get cover in.

I'm not using a set list yet. I try to make lists that have a lot of vehicles or no vehicles. For obvious reasons.

"Well, consider this: you have an army where just about every model is both WS3+ and BS3+. They tend to have a roughly equal number of ranged and shooting attacks, of roughly equal strength. They have chapter masters that let them re-roll hits in shooting AND melee. You've got Rhinos that can absorb wounds about as well as Conscripts, while also performing the function of letting you get inside melee range quickly.

And you're here like "I want to shoot Guard off the board point for point, screw the other half of my stat line. Don't teach me how to play my army."

Maybe you should pay more attention to the fact that you've got two phases where your army is good at doing damage, so you should look for ways to leverage both? Otherwise you're literally wasting points, and then wondering why the result is so inefficient. "

This implied the approach of shooting less. But most BA models have two base attacks at best, so with chainsword, you get 3 per dude, which clears a little less than one kill per dude with no rerolls.

No, not shooting less. Because you can shoot and assault in the same turn. And you can do this every single turn. The only real question is do they fall back and let you shoot with the bolter, or stay stuck in, take the melee hits again in their turn, and make you shoot with a bolt pistol.

Either way, there is no turn at all where you're not shooting. You are shooting every single turn that you can, maximum shooting. And, ideally, you are also assaulting every single turn that you can. That way, you're doubling your damage-per-turn. Are you going to turn down double damage?

Remember: you can charge after firing *any* weapon type now. There is no weapon you can shoot that will ever prevent you from charging.

Though your vehicles for the most part shouldn't charge of course, because those are only WS6+. Unless it's a Rhino that's just going in there to soak hits.

 ross-128 wrote:
No, not shooting less. Because you can shoot and assault in the same turn. And you can do this every single turn. The only real question is do they fall back and let you shoot with the bolter, or stay stuck in, take the melee hits again in their turn, and make you shoot with a bolt pistol.

Either way, there is no turn at all where you're not shooting. You are shooting every single turn that you can, maximum shooting. And, ideally, you are also assaulting every single turn that you can. That way, you're doubling your damage-per-turn. Are you going to turn down double damage?

Remember: you can charge after firing *any* weapon type now. There is no weapon you can shoot that will ever prevent you from charging.

Though your vehicles for the most part shouldn't charge of course, because those are only WS6+. Unless it's a Rhino that's just going in there to soak hits.

Look, I know all this. But I'm starting this process with half my list dead or crippled. And I don't DARE get within quadratap range. Kinda hurts the assault scheme, eh?

 ross-128 wrote:
No, not shooting less. Because you can shoot and assault in the same turn. And you can do this every single turn. The only real question is do they fall back and let you shoot with the bolter, or stay stuck in, take the melee hits again in their turn, and make you shoot with a bolt pistol.

Either way, there is no turn at all where you're not shooting. You are shooting every single turn that you can, maximum shooting. And, ideally, you are also assaulting every single turn that you can. That way, you're doubling your damage-per-turn. Are you going to turn down double damage?

Remember: you can charge after firing *any* weapon type now. There is no weapon you can shoot that will ever prevent you from charging.

Though your vehicles for the most part shouldn't charge of course, because those are only WS6+. Unless it's a Rhino that's just going in there to soak hits.

You aren't shooting when you are dead.

Heres the issue. Orders for conscripts ensure any attack on them is just a waste of points. They fall back after taking a few loses and use get back into the fight order to rapid fire their las guns into you - and then you have to take another round of their insane over-watch if you want to charge them again. You run out of models before they do in this situation - it's mathematically proven.

From my read, what the poster is saying is that you sjould be looking to both shoot and assault. Which is correct for space marines vs. Guard. Do everything and keep killing.