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They can't issue FRFSRF in melee, or after falling back. Remember that bit about Rhinos soaking wounds? They can do that and shut down FRFSRF at the same time.

So now you've both doubled your own damage, cut your opponent's damage in half, and diverted some of that damage onto a cheap damage sponge.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 ross-128 wrote:
No, not shooting less. Because you can shoot and assault in the same turn. And you can do this every single turn. The only real question is do they fall back and let you shoot with the bolter, or stay stuck in, take the melee hits again in their turn, and make you shoot with a bolt pistol.

Either way, there is no turn at all where you're not shooting. You are shooting every single turn that you can, maximum shooting. And, ideally, you are also assaulting every single turn that you can. That way, you're doubling your damage-per-turn. Are you going to turn down double damage?

Remember: you can charge after firing *any* weapon type now. There is no weapon you can shoot that will ever prevent you from charging.

Though your vehicles for the most part shouldn't charge of course, because those are only WS6+. Unless it's a Rhino that's just going in there to soak hits.

You aren't shooting when you are dead.

Heres the issue. Orders for conscripts ensure any attack on them is just a waste of points. They fall back after taking a few loses and use get back into the fight order to rapid fire their las guns into you - and then you have to take another round of their insane over-watch if you want to charge them again. You run out of models before they do in this situation - it's mathematically proven.

And if "Get back into the fight!" is used on them, then FRSRF isn't being used on them.
And if they're close enough to have GBItF used on them, then you're close enough to have charged the officer.

 Insectum7 wrote:
From my read, what the poster is saying is that you sjould be looking to both shoot and assault. Which is correct for space marines vs. Guard. Do everything and keep killing.

This is obvious. I'm running out of steam doing this, though. I can't get enough killy/pt to chop through the sheer wounds.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 ross-128 wrote:
No, not shooting less. Because you can shoot and assault in the same turn. And you can do this every single turn. The only real question is do they fall back and let you shoot with the bolter, or stay stuck in, take the melee hits again in their turn, and make you shoot with a bolt pistol.

Either way, there is no turn at all where you're not shooting. You are shooting every single turn that you can, maximum shooting. And, ideally, you are also assaulting every single turn that you can. That way, you're doubling your damage-per-turn. Are you going to turn down double damage?

Remember: you can charge after firing *any* weapon type now. There is no weapon you can shoot that will ever prevent you from charging.

Though your vehicles for the most part shouldn't charge of course, because those are only WS6+. Unless it's a Rhino that's just going in there to soak hits.

You aren't shooting when you are dead.

Heres the issue. Orders for conscripts ensure any attack on them is just a waste of points. They fall back after taking a few loses and use get back into the fight order to rapid fire their las guns into you - and then you have to take another round of their insane over-watch if you want to charge them again. You run out of models before they do in this situation - it's mathematically proven.

And if "Get back into the fight!" is used on them, then FRSRF isn't being used on them.
And if they're close enough to have GBItF used on them, then you're close enough to have charged the officer.

Forget the conscripts. The other 1.5K pts of Guard are killing your dudes. The conscripts just physically block me from assaulting what I need to assault. They raise the temporal cost of assault to where it is not viable.

 Xenomancers wrote:

You aren't shooting when you are dead.

They don't shoot when they're dead either. Keep killing.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 ross-128 wrote:
No, not shooting less. Because you can shoot and assault in the same turn. And you can do this every single turn. The only real question is do they fall back and let you shoot with the bolter, or stay stuck in, take the melee hits again in their turn, and make you shoot with a bolt pistol.

Either way, there is no turn at all where you're not shooting. You are shooting every single turn that you can, maximum shooting. And, ideally, you are also assaulting every single turn that you can. That way, you're doubling your damage-per-turn. Are you going to turn down double damage?

Remember: you can charge after firing *any* weapon type now. There is no weapon you can shoot that will ever prevent you from charging.

Though your vehicles for the most part shouldn't charge of course, because those are only WS6+. Unless it's a Rhino that's just going in there to soak hits.

You aren't shooting when you are dead.

Heres the issue. Orders for conscripts ensure any attack on them is just a waste of points. They fall back after taking a few loses and use get back into the fight order to rapid fire their las guns into you - and then you have to take another round of their insane over-watch if you want to charge them again. You run out of models before they do in this situation - it's mathematically proven.

And if "Get back into the fight!" is used on them, then FRSRF isn't being used on them.
And if they're close enough to have GBItF used on them, then you're close enough to have charged the officer.

GBITF requires the entire unit of conscripts be within the range of the order? Didn't know that. (sarcasm)

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

You aren't shooting when you are dead.

They don't shoot when they're dead either. Keep killing.

Marines run out first. That's the fundamental axiom here. After every one of my fight phases, the IG guy hits me with 3 wyverns on his turn.

Martel732 wrote:


This is obvious. I'm running out of steam doing this, though. I can't get enough killy/pt to chop through the sheer wounds.

Well the poster is definitely not saying to shoot less, at any rate.

 Insectum7 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:


This is obvious. I'm running out of steam doing this, though. I can't get enough killy/pt to chop through the sheer wounds.

Well the poster is definitely not saying to shoot less, at any rate.

Okay, well. Maybe I was reading in too much to it. I thought he was advocating more assault units.

Martel732 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

You aren't shooting when you are dead.

They don't shoot when they're dead either. Keep killing.

Marines run out first. That's the fundamental axiom here. After every one of my fight phases, the IG guy hits me with 3 wyverns on his turn.

I gotta see lists at this point, man. Wyverns average less than 2 dead marines a turn. 1.7 to be exact. That doesn't exactly look insurmountable.

 Insectum7 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

You aren't shooting when you are dead.

They don't shoot when they're dead either. Keep killing.

Marines run out first. That's the fundamental axiom here. After every one of my fight phases, the IG guy hits me with 3 wyverns on his turn.

I gotta see lists at this point, man. Wyverns average less than 2 dead marines a turn. 1.7 to be exact. That doesn't exactly look insurmountable.

It all adds up. In a combined arms list, there's not that many marines on the table. In an infantry list, there's 75ish. In a mech list, any infantry losses are bad.
It's a fair request to see lists. But I'm not the only person reporting this problem. Admittedly, the marine recosting might change things some. And I've never tried Rowboat was mass assault cannons. Because I don't own or use Rowboat.

 Colonel Cross wrote:
I've definitely seen complaints earlier about the # of shots conscripts could fire with FRFSRF. They always included max # of shots possible.

In the conscripts thread, we've taken to calling them Shrodinger's Conscripts.

They can rapid fire with all 50 guys, with FRFSRF, while commissar buffed, while protecting their officers from snipers with terrain, and bubble wrapping their officers from deep strike or jump troop assassination out in the open so that there's no conga line to prevent any conscripts from shooting, all against an opponent who cannot charge them first with anything, or possibly maneuver a squad to prevent a withdraw move. Oh...and during all this the Conscript squad is screening all friendly tanks at the same time without stretching out far enough to prevent shooting woes at the same time they're bubble wrapping them and preventing deepstriking. All on a table that doesn't provide enemy any real cover, but still has enough blocking terrain to hide friendly manticores.

 Arandmoor wrote:

 Colonel Cross wrote:
I've definitely seen complaints earlier about the # of shots conscripts could fire with FRFSRF. They always included max # of shots possible.

In the conscripts thread, we've taken to calling them Shrodinger's Conscripts.

They can rapid fire with all 50 guys, with FRFSRF, while commissar buffed, while protecting their officers from snipers with terrain, and bubble wrapping their officers from deep strike or jump troop assassination out in the open so that there's no conga line to prevent any conscripts from shooting, all against an opponent who cannot charge them first with anything, or possibly maneuver a squad to prevent a withdraw move. Oh...and during all this the Conscript squad is screening all friendly tanks at the same time without stretching out far enough to prevent shooting woes at the same time they're bubble wrapping them and preventing deepstriking. All on a table that doesn't provide enemy any real cover, but still has enough blocking terrain to hide friendly manticores.

I'm primarily protesting the durability. Which is separate from their offense, really.

Martel732 wrote:

It all adds up. In a combined arms list, there's not that many marines on the table. In an infantry list, there's 75ish. In a mech list, any infantry losses are bad.
It's a fair request to see lists. But I'm not the only person reporting this problem. Admittedly, the marine recosting might change things some. And I've never tried Rowboat was mass assault cannons. Because I don't own or use Rowboat.

That might be the sticking point. I may be bringing waaay more bodies than you do in my marine armies. I'm fond of 70-80 in a 2000 pointer with loads of Lascannons atm.

I wouldn't use the big man either. I think he's silly.

No, that's just your strawman representation of the problem.

 Insectum7 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

It all adds up. In a combined arms list, there's not that many marines on the table. In an infantry list, there's 75ish. In a mech list, any infantry losses are bad.
It's a fair request to see lists. But I'm not the only person reporting this problem. Admittedly, the marine recosting might change things some. And I've never tried Rowboat was mass assault cannons. Because I don't own or use Rowboat.

That might be the sticking point. I may be bringing waaay more bodies than you do in my marine armies. I'm fond of 70-80 in a 2000 pointer with loads of Lascannons atm.

I just said 75 in an infantry list. The IG can cut that to pieces in 3 turns. Especially if you stumble into a quadratap or two.

My guys have to leave cover to go assault the IG. The alternative is staying in cover and slowly dying and not scoring.

 Insectum7 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

It all adds up. In a combined arms list, there's not that many marines on the table. In an infantry list, there's 75ish. In a mech list, any infantry losses are bad.
It's a fair request to see lists. But I'm not the only person reporting this problem. Admittedly, the marine recosting might change things some. And I've never tried Rowboat was mass assault cannons. Because I don't own or use Rowboat.

That might be the sticking point. I may be bringing waaay more bodies than you do in my marine armies. I'm fond of 70-80 in a 2000 pointer with loads of Lascannons atm.

80 marines with no wargear is over 1000 points.

Can you share your list? It doesn't sound very viable.

 Marmatag wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 ross-128 wrote:
No, not shooting less. Because you can shoot and assault in the same turn. And you can do this every single turn. The only real question is do they fall back and let you shoot with the bolter, or stay stuck in, take the melee hits again in their turn, and make you shoot with a bolt pistol.

Either way, there is no turn at all where you're not shooting. You are shooting every single turn that you can, maximum shooting. And, ideally, you are also assaulting every single turn that you can. That way, you're doubling your damage-per-turn. Are you going to turn down double damage?

Remember: you can charge after firing *any* weapon type now. There is no weapon you can shoot that will ever prevent you from charging.

Though your vehicles for the most part shouldn't charge of course, because those are only WS6+. Unless it's a Rhino that's just going in there to soak hits.

You aren't shooting when you are dead.

Heres the issue. Orders for conscripts ensure any attack on them is just a waste of points. They fall back after taking a few loses and use get back into the fight order to rapid fire their las guns into you - and then you have to take another round of their insane over-watch if you want to charge them again. You run out of models before they do in this situation - it's mathematically proven.

And if "Get back into the fight!" is used on them, then FRSRF isn't being used on them.
And if they're close enough to have GBItF used on them, then you're close enough to have charged the officer.

GBITF requires the entire unit of conscripts be within the range of the order? Didn't know that. (sarcasm)

Yes, yes we know. The magical "tail" of the Conscript Squad giving them untouchable range...
but that does not change that an officer has to be sat within 6 inches of the Conscripts to give them the Order and that if they receive Get Back Into the Fight then they cannot be given First Rank Fire Second Rank Fire.

But I'm sure you knew that.../sarcasm

 Marmatag wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

It all adds up. In a combined arms list, there's not that many marines on the table. In an infantry list, there's 75ish. In a mech list, any infantry losses are bad.
It's a fair request to see lists. But I'm not the only person reporting this problem. Admittedly, the marine recosting might change things some. And I've never tried Rowboat was mass assault cannons. Because I don't own or use Rowboat.

That might be the sticking point. I may be bringing waaay more bodies than you do in my marine armies. I'm fond of 70-80 in a 2000 pointer with loads of Lascannons atm.

80 marines with no wargear is over 1000 points.

Can you share your list? It doesn't sound very viable.

20 of my dudes are scouts. Which I think loses me first turn, though. I might need to rework that.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 ross-128 wrote:
No, not shooting less. Because you can shoot and assault in the same turn. And you can do this every single turn. The only real question is do they fall back and let you shoot with the bolter, or stay stuck in, take the melee hits again in their turn, and make you shoot with a bolt pistol.

Either way, there is no turn at all where you're not shooting. You are shooting every single turn that you can, maximum shooting. And, ideally, you are also assaulting every single turn that you can. That way, you're doubling your damage-per-turn. Are you going to turn down double damage?

Remember: you can charge after firing *any* weapon type now. There is no weapon you can shoot that will ever prevent you from charging.

Though your vehicles for the most part shouldn't charge of course, because those are only WS6+. Unless it's a Rhino that's just going in there to soak hits.

You aren't shooting when you are dead.

Heres the issue. Orders for conscripts ensure any attack on them is just a waste of points. They fall back after taking a few loses and use get back into the fight order to rapid fire their las guns into you - and then you have to take another round of their insane over-watch if you want to charge them again. You run out of models before they do in this situation - it's mathematically proven.

And if "Get back into the fight!" is used on them, then FRSRF isn't being used on them.
And if they're close enough to have GBItF used on them, then you're close enough to have charged the officer.

GBITF requires the entire unit of conscripts be within the range of the order? Didn't know that. (sarcasm)

Yes, yes we know. The magical "tail" of the Conscript Squad giving them untouchable range...
but that does not change that an officer has to be sat within 6 inches of the Conscripts to give them the Order and that if they receive Get Back Into the Fight then they cannot be given First Rank Fire Second Rank Fire.

But I'm sure you knew that.../sarcasm

Considering I didn't dispute it, why would you assume otherwise? I don't reply to every strawman presented in this thread.

And it's not a "magical tail," it's the "used in practice so you can hind characters inside buildings" tail, which you see pretty much every damn game.

Forget the orders. Just having 50 wounds with 24" ranged attacks immune to psychology is super abusive in and of itself from what I have experienced.

What's the difference between the game where my DC killed like 80 hormagaunts and games where I've failed to kill even 30 conscripts? The Tyranids weren't shooting the piss out of me with the rest of their list.

Martel732 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
From my read, what the poster is saying is that you sjould be looking to both shoot and assault. Which is correct for space marines vs. Guard. Do everything and keep killing.

This is obvious. I'm running out of steam doing this, though. I can't get enough killy/pt to chop through the sheer wounds.

Then use cover better. Hang back some of your units more. Field some disposable chaff for charges/baiting overwatch...

I'm going to be honest here Martel, you're just seeming to want to have an easy win against Guard.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 ross-128 wrote:
No, not shooting less. Because you can shoot and assault in the same turn. And you can do this every single turn. The only real question is do they fall back and let you shoot with the bolter, or stay stuck in, take the melee hits again in their turn, and make you shoot with a bolt pistol.

Either way, there is no turn at all where you're not shooting. You are shooting every single turn that you can, maximum shooting. And, ideally, you are also assaulting every single turn that you can. That way, you're doubling your damage-per-turn. Are you going to turn down double damage?

Remember: you can charge after firing *any* weapon type now. There is no weapon you can shoot that will ever prevent you from charging.

Though your vehicles for the most part shouldn't charge of course, because those are only WS6+. Unless it's a Rhino that's just going in there to soak hits.

You aren't shooting when you are dead.

Heres the issue. Orders for conscripts ensure any attack on them is just a waste of points. They fall back after taking a few loses and use get back into the fight order to rapid fire their las guns into you - and then you have to take another round of their insane over-watch if you want to charge them again. You run out of models before they do in this situation - it's mathematically proven.

And if "Get back into the fight!" is used on them, then FRSRF isn't being used on them.
And if they're close enough to have GBItF used on them, then you're close enough to have charged the officer.

Forget the conscripts. The other 1.5K pts of Guard are killing your dudes. The conscripts just physically block me from assaulting what I need to assault. They raise the temporal cost of assault to where it is not viable.

And if the Conscripts are so physically deep that your snipers can't get range or LOS to get range on the Commissars/Officers, then most of the Guard army can't get range to shoot either.

"I'm going to be honest here Martel, you're just seeming to want to have an easy win against Guard. "

I'm going to be honest here, I'm just asking to not be tabled by having 800 pts neutralized by 150 pts. There will never be anything easy about beating IG in 8th ed, since their tanks are super resilient to assault now and their dudes can waltz out of CC at will.

But I'm sure I was just asking for easy wins against Tau and Eldar in 7th. Yeah, that was it. The 40 lascannon soaking riptides and 295 GMCs were necessary to have a fair game vs BA.

"Hang back some of your units more"

To do what? Die to wyverns?

 Marmatag wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

 ross-128 wrote:
No, not shooting less. Because you can shoot and assault in the same turn. And you can do this every single turn. The only real question is do they fall back and let you shoot with the bolter, or stay stuck in, take the melee hits again in their turn, and make you shoot with a bolt pistol.

Either way, there is no turn at all where you're not shooting. You are shooting every single turn that you can, maximum shooting. And, ideally, you are also assaulting every single turn that you can. That way, you're doubling your damage-per-turn. Are you going to turn down double damage?

Remember: you can charge after firing *any* weapon type now. There is no weapon you can shoot that will ever prevent you from charging.

Though your vehicles for the most part shouldn't charge of course, because those are only WS6+. Unless it's a Rhino that's just going in there to soak hits.

You aren't shooting when you are dead.

Heres the issue. Orders for conscripts ensure any attack on them is just a waste of points. They fall back after taking a few loses and use get back into the fight order to rapid fire their las guns into you - and then you have to take another round of their insane over-watch if you want to charge them again. You run out of models before they do in this situation - it's mathematically proven.

And if "Get back into the fight!" is used on them, then FRSRF isn't being used on them.
And if they're close enough to have GBItF used on them, then you're close enough to have charged the officer.

GBITF requires the entire unit of conscripts be within the range of the order? Didn't know that. (sarcasm)

Yes, yes we know. The magical "tail" of the Conscript Squad giving them untouchable range...
but that does not change that an officer has to be sat within 6 inches of the Conscripts to give them the Order and that if they receive Get Back Into the Fight then they cannot be given First Rank Fire Second Rank Fire.

But I'm sure you knew that.../sarcasm

Considering I didn't dispute it, why would you assume otherwise? I don't reply to every strawman presented in this thread.

Obviously I would assume such because you're continually arguing the point and your only reply is to try to denigrate others' arguments as strawman.

And it's not a "magical tail," it's the "used in practice so you can hind characters inside buildings" tail, which you see pretty much every damn game.

And if the tail is being used, then you're losing some firepower from the Conscripts by doing so.

 Marmatag wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

It all adds up. In a combined arms list, there's not that many marines on the table. In an infantry list, there's 75ish. In a mech list, any infantry losses are bad.
It's a fair request to see lists. But I'm not the only person reporting this problem. Admittedly, the marine recosting might change things some. And I've never tried Rowboat was mass assault cannons. Because I don't own or use Rowboat.

That might be the sticking point. I may be bringing waaay more bodies than you do in my marine armies. I'm fond of 70-80 in a 2000 pointer with loads of Lascannons atm.

80 marines with no wargear is over 1000 points.

Can you share your list? It doesn't sound very viable.

Congratulations. That leaves 940 points left for wargear, Characters, etc.

I have a hard time believing 80 marines beat a 2K IG list with any consistency.

I wasn't saying anything in particular about composition. I was just pointing out that all of your assault units have guns, and a pretty good ballistic skill to use them with. Also, all of your shooting units have melee attacks, a pretty good weapon skill to use them with, and nothing to stop them from charging.

So, regardless of whether a particular unit leans one way or the other, you still shouldn't be leaving the other half of their kit off the table.

Of course, some shooting support to suppress and distract their tanks won't hurt. But here's a twist: if you want more firepower per point, go with a Predator. If you want more wounds, go with a Razorback.

A 102 point Predator only gets 1 extra wound over a 65 point Razorback. Their saves and toughness are identical. A Lascannon Predator pays about 18 points per wound, a lascannon Razorback pays 11.5. An assault cannon Razorback pays 10 points per wound. IG's multiwound shooting will typically do 2 (autocannons, D3 damage weapons) or 3.5 (d6 damage weapons) damage on an unsaved wound, until you get to superheavies.

However, the Predator effectively has 4 weapon hardpoints to the Razorback's 2. It effectively can put lascannons on the board for 50.5 points per lascannon to the Razorback's 57.5.

And that's purely looking at using the Razorback as a tank. If you squeeze some units into the transport space you won't have to bring as many Rhinos.

 Kanluwen wrote:

And if the tail is being used, then you're losing some firepower from the Conscripts by doing so.

The guardsmen fit in about a block 6~7" to a side. The officers can stand 6" behind the back. That means you need to get 12-13" past the front of the conscript unit just to reach the officer on the charge even before they add a tail. Each conscript in the tail extends that range by a further 3" It's not like the tail is base-to-base guardsmen across the table, I've never seen one get longer than 4 guys, and that was just sloppy placement that could easily have been 3.

6% of the unit, aka 9 points, "wasted" to ensure the officers that are absolutely vital to its function are allowed to survive. It doesn't take a genius guard player to figure it out.

I'm aware of the temporary advantages the razorback has. I don't own any TLAC razors, but I really have a hard time believing that these will magically fix everything, since players who DO have them are having the same problems.

Fielding more lascannons actually bit me in the ass last time, because I couldn't even see 5 of the targets!

Martel732 wrote:
I have a hard time believing 80 marines beat a 2K IG list with any consistency.

I think I play with a different strategic emphasis than you do. I like to double down on lots of marine bodies, it means my heavy weapons fire for longer and it means I have more basic guns to continually pepper little guys with.

But truth be told right now I'm playing Chaos. Which is kinda fun since they get two Heavy Weapons in a basic Squad instead of one.

 Insectum7 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I have a hard time believing 80 marines beat a 2K IG list with any consistency.

I think I play with a different strategic emphasis than you do. I like to double down on lots of marine bodies, it means my heavy weapons fire for longer and it means I have more basic guns to continually pepper little guys with.

But truth be told right now I'm playing Chaos. Which is kinda fun since they get two Heavy Weapons in a basic Squad instead of one.

You need a lot more than peppering to trim down conscript squads. You need 100's of peppering. You'll be below 50 bodies in turn 3 almost guaranteed. I just don't see how your emphasis changes anything. Especially if you guys never make it to assault, you've left a bunch of damage on the table.