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 Marmatag wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Insectum7 wrote:
Oh, I see. You're assuming that 20 Lascannons for a few turns have been completely ineffective against IG tanks for some reason, and at the same time no damage has been done to the Conscripts with advancing bolter fire in the meantime. Got it.

I'm not interested in this conversation anymore.

Because manticores and wyverns. We're trying to explain the competitive meta to you, you're just not accepting it. To be fair, people do bring devastator squads to tournaments - just not a lot of people do - and they use missile launchers, they're more flexible than lascannons.

Tons of people brought Devastators

While Missile was probably the most common, a ton of Lascannon and Heavy Bolters are seen
Probably about 45/35/20 distribution

 Deathypoo wrote:

Lykanthar wrote:
Ok, theoretical way to fight conscripts...
- take 1000 pts of assault marines and/or terminators and deep strike/charge everything first turn. 70% chance to go first and ~50% chance per unit to succeed with charges if you use Black Templars or command rerolls.
- overwatch likely wont kill terminators, and only kills around 2 marines. how many conscripts you kill in return here is irrelevant, the only goal is to get units to combat
- Guard turn 1: conscripts fall back 6" into his back line, now the guard player has 1 turn to try to kill 50+ marines and/or terminators without FRFSRF (which is basically impossible)
-Marine turn 2+: you can now charge/shoot anything you like and the guard player has no room to fall back anymore, and isn't getting any objectives any time soon.

Why did the guard player fall back 6" once instead of 1.5" four times? Also, he doesn't have frfsrf but he does have rapid fire an the entire rest of his army...

Pile-in/consolidate wrap-around can usually force a full fallback move if you do it properly, and even if it doesn't the guard player likely has to anyway because if they leave any room the assault marines can just fly over them. If the conscripts are within 3" of the backline then any casualties allows the assault marines to pile-in to new units, and if they are further than 3" in front then the assault marines fly over.

Lykanthar wrote:

 Deathypoo wrote:

Lykanthar wrote:
Ok, theoretical way to fight conscripts...
- take 1000 pts of assault marines and/or terminators and deep strike/charge everything first turn. 70% chance to go first and ~50% chance per unit to succeed with charges if you use Black Templars or command rerolls.
- overwatch likely wont kill terminators, and only kills around 2 marines. how many conscripts you kill in return here is irrelevant, the only goal is to get units to combat
- Guard turn 1: conscripts fall back 6" into his back line, now the guard player has 1 turn to try to kill 50+ marines and/or terminators without FRFSRF (which is basically impossible)
-Marine turn 2+: you can now charge/shoot anything you like and the guard player has no room to fall back anymore, and isn't getting any objectives any time soon.

Why did the guard player fall back 6" once instead of 1.5" four times? Also, he doesn't have frfsrf but he does have rapid fire an the entire rest of his army...

Pile-in/consolidate wrap-around can usually force a full fallback move if you do it properly, and even if it doesn't the guard player like has to anyway because if they leave any room the assault marines can just fly over them.

Pile-in and consolidate are both optional moves. If the IG player is going for maximum bubblewrap effect, he can just remove his second line as casualties and fall back into the vacated locations, without ever moving his rear models forward or allowing you to wrap around the sides. A force of 100 conscripts can cover a LOT of real estate.

 Insectum7 wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

He literally presented the math.

He did. But by that time I realized that his scenario appeared to be assuming that the only damage done in the game, so far, was to my army. And that nothing had been done to the IG player. The scenario appeared to have been constructed entirely in bad faith, so it's not even worth looking at.

You just don't understand that your not allowed to have fun playing 8th until marines auto-win every game.

To the BA players....I do have sympathy. Your dex has sucked as long as ours and your 8th rules look worse than 7th. Why do Death Company even take morale tests at all?

You will never convince me we are scatterbike/cheesetide OP, but we are OP. I've watched too many videos online of AM shooting good armies completely off the table. I'll be happy when GW nerfs us just to stop having to listen to all the whining.

Lykanthar wrote:

 Deathypoo wrote:

Lykanthar wrote:
Ok, theoretical way to fight conscripts...
- take 1000 pts of assault marines and/or terminators and deep strike/charge everything first turn. 70% chance to go first and ~50% chance per unit to succeed with charges if you use Black Templars or command rerolls.
- overwatch likely wont kill terminators, and only kills around 2 marines. how many conscripts you kill in return here is irrelevant, the only goal is to get units to combat
- Guard turn 1: conscripts fall back 6" into his back line, now the guard player has 1 turn to try to kill 50+ marines and/or terminators without FRFSRF (which is basically impossible)
-Marine turn 2+: you can now charge/shoot anything you like and the guard player has no room to fall back anymore, and isn't getting any objectives any time soon.

Why did the guard player fall back 6" once instead of 1.5" four times? Also, he doesn't have frfsrf but he does have rapid fire an the entire rest of his army...

Pile-in/consolidate wrap-around can usually force a full fallback move if you do it properly, and even if it doesn't the guard player like has to anyway because if they leave any room the assault marines can just fly over them. If the conscripts are within 3" of the backline then any casualties allows the assault marines to pile-in to new units, and if they are further than 3" in front then the assault marines fly over.

Depends on how many conscripts the AM player has, this might work against lower numbers.

 Deathypoo wrote:

Lykanthar wrote:

 Deathypoo wrote:

Lykanthar wrote:
Ok, theoretical way to fight conscripts...
- take 1000 pts of assault marines and/or terminators and deep strike/charge everything first turn. 70% chance to go first and ~50% chance per unit to succeed with charges if you use Black Templars or command rerolls.
- overwatch likely wont kill terminators, and only kills around 2 marines. how many conscripts you kill in return here is irrelevant, the only goal is to get units to combat
- Guard turn 1: conscripts fall back 6" into his back line, now the guard player has 1 turn to try to kill 50+ marines and/or terminators without FRFSRF (which is basically impossible)
-Marine turn 2+: you can now charge/shoot anything you like and the guard player has no room to fall back anymore, and isn't getting any objectives any time soon.

Why did the guard player fall back 6" once instead of 1.5" four times? Also, he doesn't have frfsrf but he does have rapid fire an the entire rest of his army...

Pile-in/consolidate wrap-around can usually force a full fallback move if you do it properly, and even if it doesn't the guard player like has to anyway because if they leave any room the assault marines can just fly over them.

Pile-in and consolidate are both optional moves. If the IG player is going for maximum bubblewrap effect, he can just remove his second line as casualties and fall back into the vacated locations, without ever moving his rear models forward or allowing you to wrap around the sides. A force of 100 conscripts can cover a LOT of real estate.

It might be a bit dependent upon deployment map... I'm thinking Dawn of War where the backline is the back 6" and conscripts are in the front 6" (in which case they have no room to fall back without exposing the backline). For hammer and anvil it might get more tricky.

Here are Marines vs Conscripts on really any deployment map, Protecting Artillery

After the charge/marine Pile-in

MMMMMMMMMM
C C C C C C C C
C C C C C C C C
C C C C C C C C
C C C C C C C C
AAAAAAAAAAA

After casualties are removed (x's), and marine consolidates:

MMMMMMMMMM
C C C C C C C C
C X X X X X X X C
C C C C C C C C
C C C C C C C C
AAAAAAAAAAA


After Fallback move:

MMMMMMMMMM

CCCC C CCCCC
C C C C C C C C
C C C C C C C C
AAAAAAAAAAA


Note how the back line didn't move at all, and the Marines still cannot reach the heavies. They need to do this 3 more times before they can reach the artillery. Or just kill enough conscripts.


Side note: before someone says "but in all your other posts the conscripts were in a tight block so they could get range to shoot stuff better, quit saying they can do everything/moving the goalposts/whatever," I'm just going to quickly point out that you deploy conscripts differently for different army match ups. They're versatile - yet another plus for them!

 Deathypoo wrote:
Here are Marines vs Conscripts on really any deployment map, Protecting Artillery

After the charge/marine Pile-in

MMMMMMMMMM
C C C C C C C C
C C C C C C C C
C C C C C C C C
C C C C C C C C
AAAAAAAAAAA

After casualties are removed (x's), and marine consolidates:

MMMMMMMMMM
C C C C C C C C
C X X X X X X X C
C C C C C C C C
C C C C C C C C
AAAAAAAAAAA


After Fallback move:

MMMMMMMMMM

CCCC C CCCCC
C C C C C C C C
C C C C C C C C
AAAAAAAAAAA


Note how the back line didn't move at all, and the Marines still cannot reach the heavies. They need to do this 3 more times before they can reach the artillery. Or just kill enough conscripts.


Side note: before someone says "but in all your other posts the conscripts were in a tight block so they could get range to shoot stuff better, quit saying they can do everything/moving the goalposts/whatever," I'm just going to quickly point out that you deploy conscripts differently for different army match ups. They're versatile - yet another plus for them!

The problem here is you are allowing the conscripts to wrap around the sides, but not the marines. If you have room to wrap around then the marines do this to engage the artillery:

MMMMMMMMMM
MCCCCCCCCCM
MCCCCCCCCCM
MCCCCCCCCCM
AAAAAAAAAAAA

If you don't have room to wrap around the sides then this situation would not have enough room to allow the conscripts to leave combat at all:

MMMMMMMMMM
CCCCCCCCCCC
CC
CCCCCCCCCCC
AAAAAAAAAAAA

EDIT:

Scrap that, since the marines have fly they can just ignore the front line during their pile in, so as soon as a single consript is removed the assault marine can then just pile in to take its place, forcing the full fall back:

MMMMMMMM
CCCCCCCCC
CCCCXCCCC
CCCCCCCCC
AAAAAAAAAA

becomes:

MMMM MMMM
CCCCCCCCC
CCCCMCCCC
CCCCCCCCC
AAAAAAAAAA

That's why, in my second block, you can see the conscripts are more closely bunched at the front. It's to represent 1" spacing between conscripts going to 0. As long as the front line is base-to-base like that, you can just remove the front line. And if you're not killing enough to remove a row, then the conscripts will happily stay locked in combat while the artillery kills other things.

As far as wrapping around the sides, I assume more conscripts are engaged with more marines all the way down the line. The conscripts just have to keep each rank wide enough to prevent the marines from lapping around - and they have plenty of bodies to do so.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
After seeing your edit - I don't think that would work. You have to end your move closer to the nearest enemy model, and the IG player is already in base-to-base with you, meaning you cannot actually consolidate.

For giggles, 80 csm, with 20 missile launchers distributed between them do 46 casualties to conscripts with frag missiles, non-rapid firing bolters and on the move, with Abaddon granting re-rolls to hit.

Better to target multiple squads if you can see them, to force comissars to execute more people. Or use the missile launchers to shoot at visible vehicles instead. 60 bolter shots rerolling to hit kill 23.6 conscripts, so a 50 man squad is pretty toasted after 2nd firing round, even if the missiles are firing elsewhere.

Again, thats on the move with missile launchers and not rapid firing with bolters. Closer in each csm contributes more with double boltering and frag grenades, not to mention assaults.

 Insectum7 wrote:
For giggles, 80 csm, with 20 missile launchers distributed between them do 46 casualties to conscripts with frag missiles, non-rapid firing bolters and on the move, with Abaddon granting re-rolls to hit.

Better to target multiple squads if you can see them, to force comissars to execute more people. Or use the missile launchers to shoot at visible vehicles instead. 60 bolter shots rerolling to hit kill 23.6 conscripts, so a 50 man squad is pretty toasted after 2nd firing round, even if the missiles are firing elsewhere.

Aaaaand that's the thing about conscripts. If you're pouring that many points into killing them over two turns, they've STILL done their job as far as the IG is concerned. I would love to have a single wave serpent (roughly the same cost as a conscript squad) soak essentially the entire enemy army's worth of fire-power for 2 turns in a row. My games with guard are generally surrendered on turn 3 or tabled turn 4-5, so by the end of 2, things are already tilting heavily.

Edit: I re-read and realized I wasn't paying enough attention. You basically killed a wave serpent with one round of shooting (if your math is accurate. Minus points for not showing it). Not so great, but still not awful.

 Deathypoo wrote:
That's why, in my second block, you can see the conscripts are more closely bunched at the front. It's to represent 1" spacing between conscripts going to 0. As long as the front line is base-to-base like that, you can just remove the front line. And if you're not killing enough to remove a row, then the conscripts will happily stay locked in combat while the artillery kills other things.

As far as wrapping around the sides, I assume more conscripts are engaged with more marines all the way down the line. The conscripts just have to keep each rank wide enough to prevent the marines from lapping around - and they have plenty of bodies to do so.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
After seeing your edit - I don't think that would work. You have to end your move closer to the nearest enemy model, and the IG player is already in base-to-base with you, meaning you cannot actually consolidate.

The assault marines charged, so they get to pile in, fight and consolidate before the guard can do anything. You can charge and pile in 1 " away from the front line, then consolidate to the other side of the closest model (and base a different model in the 3rd row).

 Deathypoo wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
For giggles, 80 csm, with 20 missile launchers distributed between them do 46 casualties to conscripts with frag missiles, non-rapid firing bolters and on the move, with Abaddon granting re-rolls to hit.

Better to target multiple squads if you can see them, to force comissars to execute more people. Or use the missile launchers to shoot at visible vehicles instead. 60 bolter shots rerolling to hit kill 23.6 conscripts, so a 50 man squad is pretty toasted after 2nd firing round, even if the missiles are firing elsewhere.

Aaaaand that's the thing about conscripts. If you're pouring that many points into killing them over two turns, they've STILL done their job as far as the IG is concerned. I would love to have a single wave serpent (roughly the same cost as a conscript squad) soak essentially the entire enemy army's worth of fire-power for 2 turns in a row. My games with guard are generally surrendered on turn 3 or tabled turn 4-5, so by the end of 2, things are already tilting heavily.

Potato potato.

I think youd be silly to fire the missile launchers at the conscripts, as their damage output isnt great, and a second turn of boltering them will largely finish them off.

Lykanthar wrote:

 Deathypoo wrote:
That's why, in my second block, you can see the conscripts are more closely bunched at the front. It's to represent 1" spacing between conscripts going to 0. As long as the front line is base-to-base like that, you can just remove the front line. And if you're not killing enough to remove a row, then the conscripts will happily stay locked in combat while the artillery kills other things.

As far as wrapping around the sides, I assume more conscripts are engaged with more marines all the way down the line. The conscripts just have to keep each rank wide enough to prevent the marines from lapping around - and they have plenty of bodies to do so.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
After seeing your edit - I don't think that would work. You have to end your move closer to the nearest enemy model, and the IG player is already in base-to-base with you, meaning you cannot actually consolidate.

The assault marines charged, so they get to pile in, fight and consolidate before the guard can do anything. You can charge and pile in just out of base contact, then consolidate to the other side of the closest model.

hmmm you are right. The same concept I laid out would still work, except for the very last rank, because you can do the same thing but taking from the rear rank. You just have to move more models when you fall back.

 Deathypoo wrote:

Lykanthar wrote:

 Deathypoo wrote:
That's why, in my second block, you can see the conscripts are more closely bunched at the front. It's to represent 1" spacing between conscripts going to 0. As long as the front line is base-to-base like that, you can just remove the front line. And if you're not killing enough to remove a row, then the conscripts will happily stay locked in combat while the artillery kills other things.

As far as wrapping around the sides, I assume more conscripts are engaged with more marines all the way down the line. The conscripts just have to keep each rank wide enough to prevent the marines from lapping around - and they have plenty of bodies to do so.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
After seeing your edit - I don't think that would work. You have to end your move closer to the nearest enemy model, and the IG player is already in base-to-base with you, meaning you cannot actually consolidate.

The assault marines charged, so they get to pile in, fight and consolidate before the guard can do anything. You can charge and pile in just out of base contact, then consolidate to the other side of the closest model.

hmmm you are right. The same concept I laid out would still work, except for the very last rank, because you can do the same thing but taking from the rear rank. You just have to move more models when you fall back.

Hmm... so then it would come down to how much room there is and how many casualties are suffered. Still, even if you can prevent the marines from getting to the artillery on turn 2, they would still only need to kill maybe half the conscripts to get through. You would also have to worry about casualties during the shooting phase to pistols and/or the rest of the marine army because if any "wrong" model is removed then the assault marines get through and its all over. Complicated...

 Deathypoo wrote:

Edit: I re-read and realized I wasn't paying enough attention. You basically killed a wave serpent with one round of shooting (if your math is accurate. Minus points for not showing it). Not so great, but still not awful.

If you mean killing a wave serpents worth of points, well if you think conscripts are undercosted then youre killing more than that.

But the other way to look at it is that youre killing the conscripts with your "tax" for taking a bunch of heavy weapons. I just happen to not suscribe to the idea that basic marines are a tax.

Another thing to remember is that by the end of the 2nd move phase, the line has moved up 12". Line marines can fire at more valuable stuff if they like, while a smaller and smaller portion can be used to attack conscripts as the damage output increases at shorter range.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Deathypoo wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
For giggles, 80 csm, with 20 missile launchers distributed between them do 46 casualties to conscripts with frag missiles, non-rapid firing bolters and on the move, with Abaddon granting re-rolls to hit.

Better to target multiple squads if you can see them, to force comissars to execute more people. Or use the missile launchers to shoot at visible vehicles instead. 60 bolter shots rerolling to hit kill 23.6 conscripts, so a 50 man squad is pretty toasted after 2nd firing round, even if the missiles are firing elsewhere.

Aaaaand that's the thing about conscripts. If you're pouring that many points into killing them over two turns, they've STILL done their job as far as the IG is concerned. I would love to have a single wave serpent (roughly the same cost as a conscript squad) soak essentially the entire enemy army's worth of fire-power for 2 turns in a row. My games with guard are generally surrendered on turn 3 or tabled turn 4-5, so by the end of 2, things are already tilting heavily.

Potato potato.

I think youd be silly to fire the missile launchers at the conscripts, as their damage output isnt great, and a second turn of boltering them will largely finish them off.

The math, because I hate not seeing it broken down and checked:

60 Bolter marines, non-rapid. 60 shots, 40 hit + 13 from re-rolls for total of 53 hits, which is 36 wounds, which is 24 dead conscripts, after armor save. 25 after morale. So, two turns to kill a single conscript squad.

So yeah, your bolter math is dead on and we agree, yay! It feels like that almost never happens.

Less than 1000 points (dunno exact number because I don't know how to count Abbadon) taking 2 turns to kill one 150 point squad of conscripts is... I was about to say good but then I realized how warped my perception of conscripts has become. That would be considered a terrible waste against any other unit out there.

I'm serious, I really was calling it good, no sarcasm, then I realized what I was saying and replaced it.

That leaves your other 1K to fight 1.5 K of IG. That's the problem I see with it. I guess you've got those missile launchers, too.

Well, thats why i think youre better off starting to shoot at other stuff when youre in range. Spreading kills around means that other, potentially deadlier units have to start taking morale, and you get more incidental casualties. A guard player also may not spend orders on conscripts if his veterans or whatever need help either. (I confess I dont know how orders work) But then your basic csms can double-tap, frag and assault conscripts on their way in as an afterthought to all the Missile Launchers and potential combi weapons going off in other directions.

It all depends on what else is going on, natually, but it could be an interesting game.

60 marines is 780 points. Interestingly, 20 more marines all with missile launchers is 760 points.

Abaddon is 253.

For extra giggles you could fill the rest out with 40 cultists, as Abaddon makes them immune to morale. (They kill an extra 10 conscripts at 24" with Abaddons rerolls)

Now that my ban for "spamming" has ended (well done, very clever. You get me banned then call on me to reply, making me look bad when I do not) I feel it is time to introduce a simple piece of math from the days of yor:
"The Damage, Cripple, or Destroy Chart"
But first, let us look at the problem. Thus far we have the 'conscripts are bad' crowd saying this:
"Conscripts are overpowered because I cannot destroy the entire unit within 1 to 2 turns of shooting with a selection that costs exactly as much as the Conscripts and their supporting elements". The relevant parts are underlined.
Quite simply put this is utter tripe. I will get into that later, but firstly let us look at the premise for this decision. The idea that a selection that costs equal too or less than the conscripts themselves should easily be able to remove them from the board within 1 to 2 turns originates in the area of 6th and 7th 40K. Back then Guard units where incredible weak and it was not common to see entire armies break and flee. Chiefly amongst these offenders where the conscripts whom formed cheap cannon fodder, but suffered from such a terrible BS and low LD that they frequently vanished from the table. Yes, they where buffable with Orders and Priests, but these where available in extremely limited numbers and where often assigned to those units that might actually do something instead of being wasted on Conscripts. And so conscripts where easily beaten and destroyed.
The buff blobs that where the nearest things to Conscripts in those days where also easily negated, thanks to their high cost and pathetic durability as well as the sheer broken power levels of other armies whom could insta-remove the entire unit at the drop of a hat.

Another major factor was the horrifying rape train that was the majority of the popular factions during these two editions. These armies had access to units, gear and formations that utterly broke the entire game and allowed entire blocks of cheap infantry to be removed as easily as one clips figure from sprue, chiefly amongst these being the Vindicator Linebreaker and other such massed Ignores Cover shenanigans. Over the years the players of these factions became so used to deleting huge blocks of Guard troops, and indeed entire Guard armies, in a couple of turns that this became the accepted norm.
Ergo when 8th hit and some Guard units where buffed/reduced in price to the levels that they should have been the new found durability gave the players of these self same power fations a major shock as they found that they could no longer just remove Guard model with a shrug of their shoulders. A good example of this is Martel saying "Two turns is too long" when someone offered him a list that would remove the Conscripts in 2 to 3 turns with minimal return losses on his behalf. Likewise the general sentiment from the pampered children in this thread is that they should be able to remove the conscripts within a single turn of shooting whislt using selections that cost equal too or less than the Conscripts do.
This is not going to happen and in a balanced game is never going to happen and now I am going to show why.

Who here knows what Battlefleet Gothic is? Or should that be was?
BFG was (and still is) an amazing game of naval warfare in the 40K universe. It was an amazing game, broken only by Eldar (surprise surprise) and Necrons (whom where introduced to deal with Eldar). Now, there was something that all BFG players knew, and it was "The Expenditure of Resources to Remove Enemy Ships". Simply put it was a hard rule on the amount of stuff you typically had to commit to cripple or destroy and enemy ship of an equal class.
Damage, Cripple, or Destroy
The first step was to assess your target and what you wanted to do to them. Did you simply want to slug them a bit, or did you want to do more?
In a one on one battle two ships of the same class (Cruisers in this example) would slug each other ineffectually for turn after turn until one got lucky and managed to do something to its opponent. But that rarely happened swiftly and one could see eight or more turns pass with neither ship sustaining more than a point or two of minor hull damage. If you wanted to deal some real damage to an enemy ship then you typically had to expend a higher amount of resources than 1-1
If your aim was to deal some heavy damage and potentially cripple your opponent then you had to commit two ships of the same class as your target to pound it, and on average you would deal some heavier damage.Crippling within a turn was still highly unlikely, but you would usually be able to cripple it after two to three turns of bombardment.
Now, if you wanted to cripple the target ship within a single turn you would have to put some real meat into the fire. Typically you would need three Cruisers of two Cruiser and a Battleship to cripple one Cruiser within a single turn of shooting, with all three focusing their fire on the one target. And even then it was not assured, and a 4th Cruiser or a squadron of escorts was best kept on standby to finish the job.
Outright destroying the target Cruiser within a single turn would require the commitment of at least five capital ships to bombard it continuously until it fell silent.

so, how does this stack with 40K and Conscripts?
Well, quite simply it shows that they are in fact balanced. The major problem currently faced is that many players are still used to the age of super factions and dominating the weaker armies, and now that things have changed they are struggling to adapt. Conscripts are never and should never melt away within a single turn if you only commit their points cost or a fraction of their points cost to dealing with them. To completely delete the entire unit within a single turn you need to commit more resources than the unit costs - as much as five times the resources - to remove it. Forget trampling them with your Super Characters and band of merry NPC escorts, that will never happen in this edition. These days you need to actually commit resources if you want the unit to be removed, or commit yourself to the long and arduous slog of slowly grinding through it. It is your choice.
And in all honesty you will not even need five times the number of resources. About three times should do it.

A simple TL;DR guide chart


I hope that this helped.

PS, why are the conscripts still at full strength? How are the protecting if they are clumped for a volley? How are they volleying if they are spread for denial and bubblewrap? How badly have you fethed up if they are on your doorstep and still at full strength? Ask yourself these things.

You have no ability to look at an issue from your opponent's point of view and it shows in every post you make. This was clear when you tried to claim that ba were better than ig last edition.

Martel732 wrote:
You have no ability to look at an issue from your opponent's point of view and it shows in every post you make. This was clear when you tried to claim that ba were better than ig last edition.

Have you actually tried reading and comprehending or is blatant righteousness your go-to response Martel?

Very little you post is mathematically accurate or feasible from a practical standpoint. 100 wounds that are immune to morale for 400 points is busted. There's several reasons for this that have been outlined in this thread. You just ignore them all.

Martel732 wrote:
Very little you post is mathematically accurate or feasible from a practical standpoint. 100 wounds that are immune to morale for 400 points is busted. There's several reasons for this that have been outlined in this thread. You just ignore them all.

Because every single reason came down to "I cannot remove this entire unit in a turn with equal or less points so it is broken". Try applying more points to them for a turn and see what happens.

That is one thing I have tried to point out: a unit whose primary purpose is to soak wounds shouldn't be removed in a single turn by roughly equal points to begin with. If it was, it would be rather terrible at its job.

After all, think of it on the army-wide scale: if a 2000 point army could reasonably expect to kill 2000 points in a single round regardless of what the other 2000 points was comprised of, how long would a typical 40k game last? About one turn. You roll to see who goes first, the person who goes first deletes the entire enemy army, game over. I suppose technically under such a scheme all factions would have an equal chance of winning (assuming you use a simple coin flip or roll-off to give them an equal chance of going first), but it wouldn't be much of a game.

So obviously, as a rule of thumb no unit should be expecting to make its points back in a single turn. Especially not when it is attacking something that is specifically intended to be more difficult to remove than usual.

So two turns is not too long, not even close. Especially when "first-turn grants too much of an advantage" is already a common complaint.

As an aside, I've pointed out in other threads and after a PM or two, I feel obligated to point out-- Martel's exact complaints can be made about Rhinos.

On average, a bare minimum of four times a Rhino's cost in dedicated, fragile anti-tank units are necessary for the Imperial Guard to take down a Rhino in one turn.

Let's look at ways to tone down Rhinos shall we? Clearly, they're OP for such a cheap transport to be able to take that much firepower to take down in one turn! And that's with Heavy Weapons Teams being the cheapest source of lascannons in the game! For a tank squadron to take it down in one turn, it'd take take six to eight times as many points!

Hell, the Rhino can even nullify overwatch for the troops inside, thus making it even more powerful. Clearly it needs a price increase and it should obviously have no armor save.

The hyperbole in the arguments against Conscripts is ridiculous. incessant need to utterly destroy and table your opponent in one or two turns is perhaps the worst thing 6th and 7th edition introduced to the game-- not Formations or any of the other things. But the attitude that things aren't worth taking unless they make their points back in a single turn, no matter the situation they're faced with. Hell, I remember in 4th and 5th edition people were content with something making its points back over the course of six turns...

Yeah, I know, I bowed out of the conversation a page or three back. But this is just base-level hypocrisy and lack of tactical sense motivating the majority of the complaints about conscripts and it needs to be pointed out how ridiculous it is that we've gotten over sixty pages of discussion on the topic of conscripts alone in at most two weeks. People whined less about flyer spam than this, and flyer spam, unlike conscripts, actually won tournaments!

I just can't believe the level of spastic complaints going on here.

Martel's complaints can definitely not be made about rhinos. That just shows you're here to post your thoughts, and have been largely ignoring the entire debate.

A 150 point unit should not take over 800 points to remove. In no universe does that make sense. That kind of scale doesn't work for any other unit in this game.

Very little you post is mathematically accurate or feasible from a practical standpoint. 100 wounds that are immune to morale for 400 points is busted. There's several reasons for this that have been outlined in this thread. You just ignore them all.

Pretty much accurate.

 Marmatag wrote:
A 150 point unit should not take over 800 points to remove. In no universe does that make sense. That kind of scale doesn't work for any other unit in this game.

By this logic, a 70 point unit shouldn't take 400 poitns to remove.

But even though you try to talk about how "no other unit" does this apply to, you don't use this logic for any other unit. Because if you did, your entire argument would fall apart. You just say "Well nothing else is like it" ignoring all the other things like it.

Hell, to take down a single 65 point tactical marine squad in cover in a single turn takes 330 points of conscripts and support characters and the 100 conscripts involved to be given the chance to all move in to place to FRFSRF the squad. Clearly this means tactical marines are overpowered and shouldn't be as durable as they are.

Fun fact is? Both these examples-- Rhinos and Tacticals-- have the same ratio of points the unit costs vs points it takes to eliminate the unit in one turn as the ratio you mentioned for conscripts. But you don't care, because you have a hate-boner on for conscripts and you won't be dissuaded from calling them OP even if by YOUR OWN LOGIC your own units must be OP.

This is why I bowed out of the other thread, and why I bowed out earlier in this thread. Even as you claim I'm not here to listen to what you have to say, you're not willing to pay attention to anyone else's argument. You aren't even listening to your own argument... I'm out, again.

I agree with Melissia, rhinos are clearly more OP than conscripts.

Dark eldar raiders are T5 with a 4+ save and cost 115 points

Orks trukks are T6 with a 4+ save and cost 82 points.

Rhinos are T7 with 3+ save and cost 72 points.

Conscripts are quite hard to remove thanks to their numbers but you won't lose the game thanks to their survivability or their shooting. Just focus on the game guys, score the points you need to win. Tons of cheap plasma deep striking shots that obliterate some of your most valuable units in turn 1 are way more broken than conscripts for example and even easier to buy/assemble/paint/transport.

I agree that rhinos are strong, what does that have to do with conscripts being unbalanced?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Melissia wrote:
Fun fact is? Both these examples-- Rhinos and Tacticals-- have the same ratio of points the unit costs vs points it takes to eliminate the unit in one turn as the ratio you mentioned for conscripts. But you don't care, because you have a hate-boner on for conscripts and you won't be dissuaded from calling them OP even if by YOUR OWN LOGIC your own units must be OP.

Well this simply isn't true, tactical marines can be taken down 36'' away by Kastelan Robots costing only slightly more than twice as much. We are comparing the optimal answers in each given army, not a random one.