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GhostRecon wrote:
Curious what people would think of giving Conscripts a new/separate 'variant' of Lasgun - could be 'Crude Lasgun' or 'Mass Produced Lasgun'.

24" S3 AP0 DM1 Heavy 2

Inspired in part as I was watching Enemy At The Gates - giving them a weapon with the 'Heavy' attribute forgoes the need to reduce their BS. Instead, equipped with 'Heavy'-attributed weapons they can shoot decently (BS5+) if they stand still; however, if they try moving and firing they're reduced to BS6+. Of course, you can use 'Take Aim!' to try and help mitigate that - but BS6+ with re-rolls on 1's on a Heavy 2 weapon isn't going to be huge. At least, not FRFSRF huge with Rapid Firing lasguns.

Heavy 2 does give them a 24" bubble where they pepper things with a pretty good weight of Lasgun-strength fire; however, by being Heavy it means any movement at all would drastically reduce their firepower - and Orders won't be able to mitigate that problem well... and using 'Take Aim!' means they aren't getting any other Orders.

Furthermore, taking away the actual Rapid Fire lasguns helps reduce the effectiveness of Orders somewhat without having to give them abilities to reduce/remove Orders directly (by making them only work on a 3+ or 4+ as has been mentioned, or outright negating the ability) - particularly in nullifying their ability to utilize FRFSRF - but allows the IG player to still use other Orders on his Conscripts if deemed necessary.

Just food for thought. I know in a big thread like this my posts always get lost anyway (they have in the past conscript discussions, certainly!) but like I said - came into mind watching the conscript wave attack in Enemy at the Gates.

This is an interesting proposition. Normally you wouldn't want to move Conscripts anyway for the most part, but failing to deploy them well, and therefore needing to move them, gives a penalty. I kinda like this.

 Deathypoo wrote:

Insectum7 wrote:
How do they gain 4+ BS?

Searchlights

Ahh, handy.

Well in that case 100 conscript shots will average a whopping 1.4 wounds against a glorious Land Raider.

 Kanluwen wrote:

So again, your ideal situation requires more support units and ignores any potential support units on the part of whatever is firing at the Conscripts.

Stop putting words in my mouth. I am absolutely willing to consider any and all buffs for whoever is firing at the conscripts. However, I will point out that one of the reasons conscripts are so good is that buffs multiplied by 50 are insanely points efficient. For example, a 20 point searchlight equates to less than 0.4 points per buffed conscript, which is 13% more ppm, and 4+ BS ups their effective firepower by 50%.

You're talking about someone hiding Officers behind a tank.

I'm telling you that there is a range issue doing so. The only way to alleviate it is weird wraparounds with the "tail" you keep talking about or Vox-Casters.

Yeah, and I'm telling you that adding the tail isn't some crazy self-defeating action. 2 conscripts adds 6" of range. It's not hard.


No one ever came up with a winning answer to my challenge in the other thread - build me a 400~450 point Craftworld Eldar army capable of beating the 100 conscripts+commissar+officer+2 searchlights combo (401 points). I don't care if it's tailored and will suck vs. any other opponent. Come up with whatever terrain advantage for Eldar that you want but don't assume the IG player deploys like an idiot. 4'x4' table (small points= small board). Please, take a stab at it. Find me something that wins the game for Eldar - like I've said before I'd rather find a viable army than win an argument on the internet, so show me what to take.

I won't ask you to do the math, because it's long and boring and because if you do the math you'll see the Eldar lose with any units they take, every time. But do stick around to tell me where you think I went wrong when I do the math for you after.

Talk about search lights anyone know where I can find at Least 1 model of it?

 Deathypoo wrote:

No one ever came up with a winning answer to my challenge in the other thread - build me a 400~450 point Craftworld Eldar army capable of beating the 100 conscripts+commissar+officer+2 searchlights combo (401 points). I don't care if it's tailored and will suck vs. any other opponent. Come up with whatever terrain advantage for Eldar that you want but don't assume the IG player deploys like an idiot. 4'x4' table (small points= small board). Please, take a stab at it. Find me something that wins the game for Eldar - like I've said before I'd rather find a viable army than win an argument on the internet, so show me what to take.

I won't ask you to do the math, because it's long and boring and because if you do the math you'll see the Eldar lose with any units they take, every time. But do stick around to tell me where you think I went wrong when I do the math for you after.

I think comparing them straight point for point isnt the way to go, as I feel the game is intended for higher point values and tends not to balance well for certain units at lower point values. But Ill give it a think for fun.

Wait, is a searchlight not the old thing-on-a-vehicle, its a unit?

Searchlight is a sabre defense platform weapon option.

If that's their entire list:

Step 1: get a wave serpent with a missile launcher. Searchlights have a 48" range, have no character protections, and require LoS to work. The Wave Serpent can pick off searchlights early on, negating 1/3 of that list's firepower immediately. Once the searchlights are down its blast mode, twin shuriken catapult, and shield discharge should be able to reasonably contribute to anti-infantry.

It also gets you 13 T7/3+ wounds that they'll have to chew through sooner or later if they want to win.

Step 2: make sure your warlord is a psyker with Conceal. A Warlock will do. The -1 to hit bubble will counter the searchlights early on, and when they go down those conscripts will be hitting on 6+.

Step 3: Bring two minimum size units of swooping hawks with sunrifles. Stick them in deep strike reserve (two units on the table, two in reserve, checks out) to protect them from alpha strikes. Doing this also forces him to deploy in a counter-deepstrike formation, which in turn will allow you to drop into whichever piece of board can bring the fewest models to bear. Position yourself right and he might only be able to bring one of the two squads in range at all, and that only partially.

Warlock's job is to cast conceal every turn and be a walking -1 to hit bubble. The wave serpent can protect him from shooting until the hawks drop. Wave serpent's job is to take out the searchlights, be a wound sponge, then help mop up. Swooping hawks give the conscripts another -1 to hit, so they'll only hit on 6s while the searchlights are up, and be completely harmless when the searchlights are down.

If the opportunity presents itself the swooping hawks can leap over the conscripts, carpet-bombing them in the process, and take out the commissar/officer from behind to speed things up, then if they survive hop back over to the safety of the warlock. Since they and the wave serpent have Fly, they can also do an assault-withdraw-shoot cycle to throw some extra dice around (and if they withdraw instead, you negate FRFSRF. Win-win).

Peak single-round dice output should be 40 from the sunburst rifles, 10 power sword attacks (20 if the conscripts don't withdraw, but they probably will), 2d6+4 from the wave serpent's guns, and a couple mortal wounds from shield discharge and grenade bombing.

While it won't wipe out the conscripts quickly, it should eventually win by attrition. The missile launcher with its d6 damage (and two shots) shouldn't have much trouble taking out the 3-wound searchlights, the Wave Serpent is the only alpha strike target and it'll be fine, and the whole game the conscripts will be either hitting on 6 or unable to hit. The ability to dictate where the engagement happens should also allow the hawks to basically shut out one of the two squads for a couple turns via positioning, so they can achieve defeat-in-detail. And throwing a bit over 50 dice per round means they should be putting out enough damage to wrap things up by turn 5, especially since the conscripts won't get saves against most of it.

Should comfortably fit within a 500 point game (because who the heck plays exactly 400). If you do need to squeeze it into exactly 400, you'll have to drop a couple sunrifles for lasblasters. Allocate wounds to those unfortunate models first, to protect the sunrifles. You won't care about being in rapid-fire range because they won't be able to hit you.

I still think that setting them to 20 models, no more, no less, is the way to go.

It allows for some orders but not the raw power that they currently have.
It allows Commissars to still do their thing but it's hard to keep 100 models in range of 2 guys.
It leaves the point cost where it should be but puts a 'Detachment Tax" that clogs the pipes a bit like a ratio with normal troopers.
It adds more drops, making the IG player less likely to have a first strike.
It reduces the power of Overwatch by reducing the number of shots launched.

It's the smallest change with the biggest result, requires no "Special case" rules and still leaves them useful without being dominant.

Conscripts = 20 models, done.

sossen wrote:
IWe are comparing the optimal answers in each given army, not a random one.

Oh ok, so ork boyz then? Because 180 points of conscripts + commissar is wiped out by 360 points of boyz.
60 boys.
240 attacks.
Hitting on 3s - 161 hits.
Wounding on 3s - 108 wounds.
5+ flak armour - 72 unsaved wounds.
Wiped out in 1 turn. Would you look at that.

 Intruder wrote:

sossen wrote:
IWe are comparing the optimal answers in each given army, not a random one.

Oh ok, so ork boyz then? Because 180 points of conscripts + commissar is wiped out by 360 points of boyz.
60 boys.
240 attacks.
Hitting on 3s - 161 hits.
Wounding on 3s - 108 wounds.
5+ flak armour - 72 unsaved wounds.
Wiped out in 1 turn. Would you look at that.

I don't know if you have read the rest of the thread, but I figured that it would be obvious from the context that I am talking about ranged weapons.

sossen wrote:

 Intruder wrote:

sossen wrote:
IWe are comparing the optimal answers in each given army, not a random one.

Oh ok, so ork boyz then? Because 180 points of conscripts + commissar is wiped out by 360 points of boyz.
60 boys.
240 attacks.
Hitting on 3s - 161 hits.
Wounding on 3s - 108 wounds.
5+ flak armour - 72 unsaved wounds.
Wiped out in 1 turn. Would you look at that.

I don't know if you have read the rest of the thread, but I figured that it would be obvious from the context that I am talking about ranged weapons.

But I thought you wanted the 'Optimal answers' to conscripts. And that would be assault units. Face it, buddy - conscripts are very durable against shooting. Luckily, they have counters like everything else. Just saying 'I don't want to use that solution' does not fly.

Is the sabre defense platform with searchlights in the index?

 Intruder wrote:

sossen wrote:

 Intruder wrote:

sossen wrote:
IWe are comparing the optimal answers in each given army, not a random one.

Oh ok, so ork boyz then? Because 180 points of conscripts + commissar is wiped out by 360 points of boyz.
60 boys.
240 attacks.
Hitting on 3s - 161 hits.
Wounding on 3s - 108 wounds.
5+ flak armour - 72 unsaved wounds.
Wiped out in 1 turn. Would you look at that.

I don't know if you have read the rest of the thread, but I figured that it would be obvious from the context that I am talking about ranged weapons.

But I thought you wanted the 'Optimal answers' to conscripts. And that would be assault units. Face it, buddy - conscripts are very durable against shooting. Luckily, they have counters like everything else. Just saying 'I don't want to use that solution' does not fly.

It has nothing to do with not wanting to use melee answers. The comparison is being made with ranged units for a reason. Of course melee units are more efficient once they actually get into melee, that's a given and has been mentioned before in this thread. Don't just reply to the thread if you haven't read all of it.

 Deathypoo wrote:
Searchlight is a sabre defense platform weapon option.

Oh so it is only the Sabre platform, not my vehicle searchlights. Ah well.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Deathypoo wrote:


Also, conscripts can spread out and bubble wrap against CC armies and they can move in tight blocks to exchange shots vs. shooty armies and we can complain about their superb effectiveness at both things. Just because we're complaining about both things doesn't mean that we think they can do all the things all the time.

Well if they form up for volley blocks then just go around them and shoot out the support, if they spread out to cover the entire line DS behind them or just shoot until a hole opens up in the line, if they bubblewrap ignore whatever they are bubblewrapping and shoot everything else or use barrage, and if they are lined for anti-outflank or scattered for anti-DS then just go through the rest of the army.
Its called adapting and it is something we had to do a lot back when we where weak.

Wakshaani wrote:
I still think that setting them to 20 models, no more, no less, is the way to go.

It allows for some orders but not the raw power that they currently have.
It allows Commissars to still do their thing but it's hard to keep 100 models in range of 2 guys.
It leaves the point cost where it should be but puts a 'Detachment Tax" that clogs the pipes a bit like a ratio with normal troopers.
It adds more drops, making the IG player less likely to have a first strike.
It reduces the power of Overwatch by reducing the number of shots launched.

It's the smallest change with the biggest result, requires no "Special case" rules and still leaves them useful without being dominant.

Conscripts = 20 models, done.

Most of the players in the top 10 of BAO used squads of 20-30 Conscripts (the winner had 4x 30 Conscripts). So, unfortunately your suggested fix doesn't necessarily change things - still feels like the majority (or vocal minority, hard to tell) just don't want to see any Conscripts in a list. There's already increasing talk of Scions again too - after that, probably finally to the AM FW options, Manticores, etc. Maybe AM will be 'balanced' if they never appear in the top 10 of a tourney again... apparently.

I still feel nerfing Orders won't 'fix' the problem in the 'Conscripts are OP' crowd either - even if you completely remove the prospect of Orders you're still looking at a squad of up to 50 models that are effectively immune to battleshock. Indeed, it seems as if 1/3rd of the argument focused on their firepower thanks to FRFSRF, but 2/3rds continue to focus on how much shooting is required to completely eliminate a Conscript squad. So how does nerfing their ability to get Orders fix the problem? Even using GBITF just touches on the symptom of the real problem, I feel - their durability.

Moderate their synergy with a Commissar and even if there isn't a change to how they take Orders at all the increased attrition in the unit will make using those Orders much less efficient and attractive.

GhostRecon wrote:
feels like the majority (or vocal minority, hard to tell) just don't want to see any Conscripts in a list. There's already increasing talk of Scions again too - after that, probably finally to the AM FW options, Manticores, etc. Maybe AM will be 'balanced' if they never appear in the top 10 of a tourney again... apparently.

Pretty much this. Guard become competitive and balanced for the first time in years and suddenly we have this huge outcry.

You'd need a pretty big ego to think that the reason why people don't like the power level of conscripts is because they are part of AM.

Just make orders fail on conscripts 50% of the time and have the commissar have to roll a 3+ save each time he needs to put down a conscript due to moral. If he fails it the conscripts attack the commissar doing d3 mortal wounds and behave normally for their leadership.


Conscripts are undisciplined and untrained prone to panic possibly overwhelming nearby authority figures in their panic.

6+ Armour Save, No Orders, Commissars can't affect them, 20 model limit and 5ppm

 BaconCatBug wrote:
6+ Armour Save, No Orders, Commissars can't affect them, 20 model limit and 5ppm

So you want to make them useless.....?

A regular guardsman is 5ppm so you want to make blobs of guard that cant take orders and die to a gentle breeze and are spooked by grass growing.

Maybe a fix to Summary execution to the following "Friendly AM units within 6" never lose more than one model to a single failed morale test, so long as casualties taken does not exceed the LD of the squad. If they take more casualties than their LD lose D6 models"

This would make it so that only conscripts ever lose more than a single model. However if conscripts lose 9+ models they take D6 losses.

If D6 seems too steep it could also go D3.

Or if we don't care about more complexity make it 1 loss up to LD, then D3 until 2x LD, after that D6.

sossen wrote:You'd need a pretty big ego to think that the reason why people don't like the power level of conscripts is because they are part of AM.

Well, seeing as this is the first time in however long that we have been competitive and people are already screaming about it what am I supposed to think? Especially when something as simple and mono-use as conscripts are being targeted as "over powered".

BaconCatBug wrote:6+ Armour Save, No Orders, Commissars can't affect them, 20 model limit and 5ppm

See this right here? Yeah, have fun Guard players when everything you have is statistically worse per point cost than every other factions models. After all, we cannot have balance when Guard players can compete on an equal footing can we? That said it would not be anything new for us, after all we spent two entire editions at the bottom.

pismakron wrote:
Is the sabre defense platform with searchlights in the index?

Appears to be a forgeworld thing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

sossen wrote:

It has nothing to do with not wanting to use melee answers. The comparison is being made with ranged units for a reason. Of course melee units are more efficient once they actually get into melee, that's a given and has been mentioned before in this thread. Don't just reply to the thread if you haven't read all of it.

What was the reason again? Something about wanting to legitimize whining rather than look for rreasonable counters maybe? I forget now, please refresh my memory.

Just to show the conundrum conscripts put players in, I just got absolutely stomped by Nidzilla this weekend. I had beefed up my anti-horde, but didn't play an IG opponent. The plasma bugs crippled me in two short turns. At least for marines, there is no way at all to prepare for Nidzilla and conscripts. Whereas conscripts make Nidzilla look FOOLISH.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Insectum7 wrote:

pismakron wrote:
Is the sabre defense platform with searchlights in the index?

Appears to be a forgeworld thing.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

sossen wrote:

It has nothing to do with not wanting to use melee answers. The comparison is being made with ranged units for a reason. Of course melee units are more efficient once they actually get into melee, that's a given and has been mentioned before in this thread. Don't just reply to the thread if you haven't read all of it.

What was the reason again? Something about wanting to legitimize whining rather than look for rreasonable counters maybe? I forget now, please refresh my memory.

The Orks will never get there. Come on now. You can get 20 boyz there because of battlewagons, but 60 boyz on foot? None of them make it.

>Takes anti-horde against Nidzilla and loses
>Somehow this legitimises anti-conscript whining

Can someone please show me the link here because I see none?

 master of ordinance wrote:
>Takes anti-horde against Nidzilla and loses
>Somehow this legitimises anti-conscript whining

Can someone please show me the link here because I see none?

It is a statement about TAC lists. He is building extra anti-horde into his list incase of conscript spam, because without it he cannot handle conscript spam, then he ends up against a list with no chaff, and is on the back foot.

Your comment seems to suggest that people should be list tailoring to each opponent because then there is no issue with conscripts.

This discussion is redundant, the math is here for anyone who wants it and the latest tournament results back it up. Feel free to find the conscript counter that doesnt lose to everything else and bring that list to a tournament.

Breng77 wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
>Takes anti-horde against Nidzilla and loses
>Somehow this legitimises anti-conscript whining

Can someone please show me the link here because I see none?

It is a statement about TAC lists. He is building extra anti-horde into his list incase of conscript spam, because without it he cannot handle conscript spam, then he ends up against a list with no chaff, and is on the back foot.

Your comment seems to suggest that people should be list tailoring to each opponent because then there is no issue with conscripts.

Why not? It is literally what Guard players had to do for several editions.

 master of ordinance wrote:
have fun Guard players when everything you have is statistically worse per point cost than every other factions models

Sigh, your supposed to be worse than everyone. Your Guard. Let alone conscripts.
Very limited training. Possably as little as a week. Maybe 6 months at the most. Theyre there to hopefully clog land raider tracks with there bodies.
So no orders. The comish can try and make them follow orders with the sacrifice of 1 for every 10 models. IF he rolls over the basic conscript Ld. If not they die and order and the order fails.
Teachers cant control 30 kids, never mind a adult trying to control 50 adults.
You want orders get trained regular guard.

Im tempted to make them only hit shots on a 6 as well. but little steps.

 master of ordinance wrote:

Breng77 wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
>Takes anti-horde against Nidzilla and loses
>Somehow this legitimises anti-conscript whining

Can someone please show me the link here because I see none?

It is a statement about TAC lists. He is building extra anti-horde into his list incase of conscript spam, because without it he cannot handle conscript spam, then he ends up against a list with no chaff, and is on the back foot.

Your comment seems to suggest that people should be list tailoring to each opponent because then there is no issue with conscripts.

Why not? It is literally what Guard players had to do for several editions.

? No idea what you are even talking about, guard players guard players had to list tailor? Or they had to lose in bad match-ups? In either case that was bad for guard then, it doesn't make it ok or others now. Your mindset seems to be "we sucked last edition so now it is our turn to be broken!" This mindset results in a bad game.