Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Back to pop my head in and say a few things:

1) The list that won BAO had 120 conscripts in it, among other things. I still agree that they're OP with orders (i.e. in their current state), but I also think that once you remove orders from them, the problem goes away as their damage output normalizes back to 'sucky' from 'surprisingly good.'

2) It's worth noting that I have believed that the idea of a 'TAC' list has been dead since 5th edition, due to the presence of skew lists such as IG Armoured Company existing concurrently with vehicle-less Green Tide.

They are still very good without orders, as shown by the third place list running conscripts+commissar in an SM army. Many similar lists in the tourney. Maybe too good even without orders, maybe not.

sossen wrote:
They are still very good without orders, as shown by the third place list running conscripts+commissar in an SM army. Many similar lists in the tourney. Maybe too good even without orders, maybe not.

That is because they are not primarily used for their shooting, but instead as a wall to buy time to shoot things all game long.

A list with 120 conscripts can protect it's firebase for 5 turns pretty reliably.

the ancient wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
have fun Guard players when everything you have is statistically worse per point cost than every other factions models

Sigh, your supposed to be worse than everyone. Your Guard. Let alone conscripts.

No, we are meant to be a professional army. Stop reading bolter porn and start reading the Guard fluff. There is very little about us being "worse than everyone else". Yes, we are not bio engineered killers or super humans but we are not just a mass of peasants either. Depending on the regiment, some Guard units are incredibly well trained to the point that they make some modern armies of today look poor.

Very limited training. Possably as little as a week. Maybe 6 months at the most. Theyre there to hopefully clog land raider tracks with there bodies.

Phantine airborne have a year and a half worth of training. Tanith First had a year of intense training. Urdeshi and Mordians both have about two years. Death Korps have a theoretical lifetimes worth of training. Only a couple of units have less than a years worth of training and drill before they are committed.
Conscripts represent first deployment units and scratch companies, which if anyone remembers Vervunhive, have the potential to be anything from unwilling cowards to selfless heroes.

So no orders.

Okay. But Tactical Marines and Scouts dont get to benefit from Chapter Tactics.

The comish can try and make them follow orders with the sacrifice of 1 for every 10 models.

So in other words if you want to put orders on your Conscripts you first have to sacrifice 10% of the unit? Hahaha no.

IF he rolls over the basic conscript Ld. If not they die and order and the order fails.

And even after sacrificing 10% of the unit you still have a 50% chance to fail. Which means you lose the entire unit.
on a side note this is the most slowed suggestion yet... Then again it comes from a roflstomp Marine player so I am not surprised.

Teachers cant control 30 kids, never mind a adult trying to control 50 adults.

There is a difference between Commissars and Teachers. Why dont you try and read up on Russia in WW2? Commissars quite literally had Conscript units marching through mine fields in order to clear them.

You want orders get trained regular guard.

You mean the guys who are still too expensive to ever really work? And can only be taken in 10 man blobs? I have a better idea: Orders affect all units with a vox caster or within 6" of the Command Section, meaning that you can order more than two units a turn.

Im tempted to make them only hit shots on a 6 as well. but little steps.

Yeah, baby steps first. After all we want to have something in reserve in case nerfing them into extinction is not quite enough.

Well at least someone understands my post.

For the others: we play vs unknown foes w/unknown lists. You think i'm so dumb i wouldn't be able list tailor vs nidzilla? No, we just don't do that.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Back to pop my head in and say a few things:

1) The list that won BAO had 120 conscripts in it, among other things. I still agree that they're OP with orders (i.e. in their current state), but I also think that once you remove orders from them, the problem goes away as their damage output normalizes back to 'sucky' from 'surprisingly good.'

You want the problem fixed?

Make infantry squads a viable alternative. Seriously, there's a reason why people are talking about Conscripts instead of an equivalent number of Guardsmen.

2) It's worth noting that I have believed that the idea of a 'TAC' list has been dead since 5th edition, due to the presence of skew lists such as IG Armoured Company existing concurrently with vehicle-less Green Tide.

The TAC list is a mythical thing, as most of the people who try to put it out there as an option do so for their opponent's army not their own.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Breng77 wrote:

sossen wrote:
They are still very good without orders, as shown by the third place list running conscripts+commissar in an SM army. Many similar lists in the tourney. Maybe too good even without orders, maybe not.

That is because they are not primarily used for their shooting, but instead as a wall to buy time to shoot things all game long.

A list with 120 conscripts can protect it's firebase for 5 turns pretty reliably.

The same can be said of most armies that take 120 of something cheap in a Troops slot.

Kanluwen7339779524733af19f998e5e56a6263a9964853db5aa2.jpg wrote:You want the problem fixed?

Make infantry squads a viable alternative. Seriously, there's a reason why people are talking about Conscripts instead of an equivalent number of Guardsmen.

So the solution to conscripts being OP is to buff guardsmen?

Kanluwen7339779524733af19f998e5e56a6263a9964853db5aa2.jpg wrote:The same can be said of most armies that take 120 of something cheap in a Troops slot.

Brimstone horrors are also OP. No other units are in the same league or context as conscripts.

Huh. BAO winner had a list with Gulliman and 120 conscripts in it. This weekend, I played against a list with Gulliman and 120 conscripts (and my CSMs got quickly trashed.) Feels like word is getting around.

Have done a complete 180 on conscripts after playing against them in an optimized list. Trying not to overreact, but it feels like the challenges are a little more clear at this point. I would sum them up 2 ways:

1) Huge blobs do benefit disproportionately from buffs (like Deathypoo said.) It's hard when a large unit suddenly doubles it's rate of fire. It's very hard when 4 of them do it at the same time.

2) Named characters benefit disproportionately from huge blobs. Gulliman hits like a titan and the fact you can't take wounds off him unless he's the closest model is a problem.

On their own, either of these challenges could be dealt with, it's the presence of both together in cheap squads that is the issue.

Earlier in this thread it was suggested a Rhino could be considered OP based on a metric related to how many points of other models would be required to kill it. I really think this discussion would benefit by focusing on the ways units synergize with other models on the table and the rules mechanics they affect. OP should have a specific meaning and it should be able to be applied to a variety of situations and have a predictable outcome.

Someone suggested to me in another thread that CSMs could do the equivalent by taking a Daemon Prince surrounded by cultists. I would argue it's a very different situation because a) it's not just about wounds, it's about the added offense and b) the presence of orders can change the battlefield utility for conscripts very quickly. There's no similar mechanic for cultists to go from meatshields to legitimate threat, and a DP does not hit has hard as a primarch. You're never going to get the same results.

sossen wrote:

Kanluwen7339779524733af19f998e5e56a6263a9964853db5aa2.jpg wrote:You want the problem fixed?

Make infantry squads a viable alternative. Seriously, there's a reason why people are talking about Conscripts instead of an equivalent number of Guardsmen.

So the solution to conscripts being OP is to buff guardsmen?

Yes. That's what I said.



I'm saying that if you want Conscripts to stop being such an attractive option, make Guardsmen an option on par.

Kanluwen7339779524733af19f998e5e56a6263a9964853db5aa2.jpg wrote:The same can be said of most armies that take 120 of something cheap in a Troops slot.

Brimstone horrors are also OP. No other units are in the same league or context as conscripts.

*No other units synergize as well as Conscripts and the support within a Guard army

Fixed that for you.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 techsoldaten wrote:
Huh. BAO winner had a list with Gulliman and 120 conscripts in it. This weekend, I played against a list with Gulliman and 120 conscripts (and my CSMs got quickly trashed.) Feels like word is getting around.

Word was getting around since day one, basically, about "Insert Guilliman and whatever units" all over the place. It's a side effect of the Imperium keyword thing.

Have done a complete 180 on conscripts after playing against them in an optimized list. Trying not to overreact, but it feels like the challenges are a little more clear at this point. I would sum them up 2 ways:

1) Huge blobs do benefit disproportionately from buffs (like Deathypoo said.) It's hard when a large unit suddenly doubles it's rate of fire. It's very hard when 4 of them do it at the same time.

So kill the officers and they aren't "suddenly doubling" their rate of fire.

Or--and I'm just spitballing here--don't stand out in the bloody open in front of 120 Conscripts?

2) Named characters benefit disproportionately from huge blobs. Gulliman hits like a titan and the fact you can't take wounds off him unless he's the closest model is a problem.

This is less of an easy solution--and I'm actually really glad for it. Without the protections of the LOS bit for shooting, it'd just be shoot the heroes and ignore the other stuff.

It requires you to actually have to maneuver to get angles on the characters.

*inb4 "but the tail!"*

On their own, either of these challenges could be dealt with, it's the presence of both together in cheap squads that is the issue.

Earlier in this thread it was suggested a Rhino could be considered OP based on a metric related to how many points of other models would be required to kill it. I really think this discussion would benefit by focusing on the ways units synergize with other models on the table and the rules mechanics they affect. OP should have a specific meaning and it should be able to be applied to a variety of situations and have a predictable outcome.

Someone suggested to me in another thread that CSMs could do the equivalent by taking a Daemon Prince surrounded by cultists. I would argue it's a very different situation because a) it's not just about wounds, it's about the added offense and b) the presence of orders can change the battlefield utility for conscripts very quickly. There's no similar mechanic for cultists to go from meatshields to legitimate threat, and a DP does not hit has hard as a primarch. You're never going to get the same results.

If we're going to talk about that, it's important to remember that your Cultists can take upgrades like Heavy Stubbers and Flamethrowers.

Conscripts can't. They have their Lasguns and Grenades and can't get anything more.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Breng77 wrote:

sossen wrote:
They are still very good without orders, as shown by the third place list running conscripts+commissar in an SM army. Many similar lists in the tourney. Maybe too good even without orders, maybe not.

That is because they are not primarily used for their shooting, but instead as a wall to buy time to shoot things all game long.

A list with 120 conscripts can protect it's firebase for 5 turns pretty reliably.

The same can be said of most armies that take 120 of something cheap in a Troops slot.

And what other army is that?

I'm struggling to find another army that uses a firebase and has access to 120 cheap anything.

Nids? pay more for chaff and have worse shooting, not their optimal build, chaff is less durable.
Orks? Shooting is terrible, gretchin are significantly worse than conscripts for the same cost, not optimal build, boyz cost more for similar durability against small arms fire.
Daemons? Brims are broken, bad example that should also be nerfed, and then they only protect a fire base in a CSM list because daemons don't shoot.
CSM? Cultists are more expensive, and less durable.
Tau? Their troops are significantly more expensive, Kroot are twice as expensive, and less durable, in smaller squads.

Cultists are the closest analog- they cost 2 points more and have a 6+ save, they shoot slightly better, but cannot double their shots, getting them re-rolls is very expensive, and making them immune to morale requires abbadon or Huron blackhart, both way more expensive than a commissar. taking 120 of them would cost 600 points the cost of 200 conscripts and 240 more points than the conscripts.

The only comparable durability unit is Brims, which as I said also need a nerf because they are broken.

Gretchin which cost the same points, hit better in shooting and close combat but have less range and fewer shots, and Lower strength in CC, are way less durable *(-1 S/T and 6+ save), have a character needed for morale immunity, with a smaller bubble 93"), and a worse effect (D3 casualties). They are also slower.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:
Huh. BAO winner had a list with Gulliman and 120 conscripts in it. This weekend, I played against a list with Gulliman and 120 conscripts (and my CSMs got quickly trashed.) Feels like word is getting around.

Word was getting around since day one, basically, about "Insert Guilliman and whatever units" all over the place. It's a side effect of the Imperium keyword thing.

Yes, and the point is we are now starting to see people actually use this in tournaments and casual games.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Have done a complete 180 on conscripts after playing against them in an optimized list. Trying not to overreact, but it feels like the challenges are a little more clear at this point. I would sum them up 2 ways:

1) Huge blobs do benefit disproportionately from buffs (like Deathypoo said.) It's hard when a large unit suddenly doubles it's rate of fire. It's very hard when 4 of them do it at the same time.

So kill the officers and they aren't "suddenly doubling" their rate of fire.

Or--and I'm just spitballing here--don't stand out in the bloody open in front of 120 Conscripts?

CSMs don't have options here. We have no snipers, so our opponent gets to choose what models get removed. At full strength, 120 conscripts can cover a lot of real estate. There's not really a place where you are not in front of them.

 Kanluwen wrote:

2) Named characters benefit disproportionately from huge blobs. Gulliman hits like a titan and the fact you can't take wounds off him unless he's the closest model is a problem.

This is less of an easy solution--and I'm actually really glad for it. Without the protections of the LOS bit for shooting, it'd just be shoot the heroes and ignore the other stuff.

It requires you to actually have to maneuver to get angles on the characters.

*inb4 "but the tail!"*

Hard to get an angle around blobs that cover that much of the table. They just bubble wrap Gulliman until it's time to charge.

 Kanluwen wrote:

On their own, either of these challenges could be dealt with, it's the presence of both together in cheap squads that is the issue.

Earlier in this thread it was suggested a Rhino could be considered OP based on a metric related to how many points of other models would be required to kill it. I really think this discussion would benefit by focusing on the ways units synergize with other models on the table and the rules mechanics they affect. OP should have a specific meaning and it should be able to be applied to a variety of situations and have a predictable outcome.

Someone suggested to me in another thread that CSMs could do the equivalent by taking a Daemon Prince surrounded by cultists. I would argue it's a very different situation because a) it's not just about wounds, it's about the added offense and b) the presence of orders can change the battlefield utility for conscripts very quickly. There's no similar mechanic for cultists to go from meatshields to legitimate threat, and a DP does not hit has hard as a primarch. You're never going to get the same results.

If we're going to talk about that, it's important to remember that your Cultists can take upgrades like Heavy Stubbers and Flamethrowers.

Conscripts can't. They have their Lasguns and Grenades and can't get anything more.

It is important to remember those upgrades are available to purchase. And that, for the price of a commisar, conscripts get orders that can double their rate of fire. The first is no where near equal to the second.

Sure, it's possible to compare cultists and conscripts apples to apples based on points and weapons upgrades, but they don't play games in a vaccum. The synergy between conscripts and other units - what they do for each others - that makes them problematic.

 techsoldaten wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 techsoldaten wrote:
Huh. BAO winner had a list with Gulliman and 120 conscripts in it. This weekend, I played against a list with Gulliman and 120 conscripts (and my CSMs got quickly trashed.) Feels like word is getting around.

Word was getting around since day one, basically, about "Insert Guilliman and whatever units" all over the place. It's a side effect of the Imperium keyword thing.

Yes, and the point is we are now starting to see people actually use this in tournaments and casual games.

And?

If they're using Guilliman as part of a Conscript heavy army, they're not using something that could synergize better.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Have done a complete 180 on conscripts after playing against them in an optimized list. Trying not to overreact, but it feels like the challenges are a little more clear at this point. I would sum them up 2 ways:

1) Huge blobs do benefit disproportionately from buffs (like Deathypoo said.) It's hard when a large unit suddenly doubles it's rate of fire. It's very hard when 4 of them do it at the same time.

So kill the officers and they aren't "suddenly doubling" their rate of fire.

Or--and I'm just spitballing here--don't stand out in the bloody open in front of 120 Conscripts?

CSMs don't have options here. We have no snipers, so our opponent gets to choose what models get removed. At full strength, 120 conscripts can cover a lot of real estate. There's not really a place where you are not in front of them.

You have options.

It's called maneuvering to where you're closer to the officers than the Conscripts. Remember that the protection only applies if the character isn't closer.

 Kanluwen wrote:

2) Named characters benefit disproportionately from huge blobs. Gulliman hits like a titan and the fact you can't take wounds off him unless he's the closest model is a problem.

This is less of an easy solution--and I'm actually really glad for it. Without the protections of the LOS bit for shooting, it'd just be shoot the heroes and ignore the other stuff.

It requires you to actually have to maneuver to get angles on the characters.

*inb4 "but the tail!"*

Hard to get an angle around blobs that cover that much of the table. They just bubble wrap Gulliman until it's time to charge.

Then hold back units for deep strike, etc.

 Kanluwen wrote:

On their own, either of these challenges could be dealt with, it's the presence of both together in cheap squads that is the issue.

Earlier in this thread it was suggested a Rhino could be considered OP based on a metric related to how many points of other models would be required to kill it. I really think this discussion would benefit by focusing on the ways units synergize with other models on the table and the rules mechanics they affect. OP should have a specific meaning and it should be able to be applied to a variety of situations and have a predictable outcome.

Someone suggested to me in another thread that CSMs could do the equivalent by taking a Daemon Prince surrounded by cultists. I would argue it's a very different situation because a) it's not just about wounds, it's about the added offense and b) the presence of orders can change the battlefield utility for conscripts very quickly. There's no similar mechanic for cultists to go from meatshields to legitimate threat, and a DP does not hit has hard as a primarch. You're never going to get the same results.

If we're going to talk about that, it's important to remember that your Cultists can take upgrades like Heavy Stubbers and Flamethrowers.

Conscripts can't. They have their Lasguns and Grenades and can't get anything more.

It is important to remember those upgrades are available to purchase. And that, for the price of a commisar, conscripts get orders that can double their rate of fire. The first is no where near equal to the second.

Oh noes, they go from Rapid Fire 1 to Rapid Fire 2 at over 12 inches!

Sure, it's possible to compare cultists and conscripts apples to apples based on points and weapons upgrades, but they don't play games in a vaccum. The synergy between conscripts and other units - what they do for each others - that makes them problematic.

Realistically, the problem is that Guard are finally working the way everyone aside from actual Guard players kept saying they wanted them to for ages--a wall of flesh in front of tanks and heroes.

And now that it's happened, well...serious case of buyer's remorse, eh kiddos?

 Kanluwen wrote:

You have options.

It's called maneuvering to where you're closer to the officers than the Conscripts. Remember that the protection only applies if the character isn't closer.

This suggests to me that you have not played or seen conscripts used correctly.

sossen wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

You have options.

It's called maneuvering to where you're closer to the officers than the Conscripts. Remember that the protection only applies if the character isn't closer.

This suggests to me that you have not played or seen conscripts used correctly.

Your reply suggests to me that you don't want to engage in a good faith conversation.

Once again:
There are ways to deal with this nonsense, even if it covers a large frontage. It just requires something beyond standing out in the open exchanging shots with the massive horde.

Like I said earlier the easiest solution I see is a 50% order fail on conscripts. (Conscripts are undisciplined)

When a commissar is used to prevent moral losses roll a 3+ save if he fails the conscripts rebel doing d3 mortal wounds to the commissar and eating the losses as per normal.

This allows you to still use them for bubble wrap but makes a 1/3 chance to kill the commissar and a 50% chance to ignore orders.

Finally Gurlyman needs some slight tweeks (his auras should only effect infantry with Astaries KW.

Timeshadow wrote:
Like I said earlier the easiest solution I see is a 50% order fail on conscripts. (Conscripts are undisciplined)
When a commissar is used to prevent moral losses roll a 3+ save if he fails the conscripts rebel doing d3 mortal wounds to the commissar and eating the losses as per normal.
This allows you to still use them for bubble wrap but makes a 1/3 chance to kill the commissar and a 50% chance to ignore orders.

No.

Players outside of the Guard all wanted Guard to be a horde of bodies. They all kept talking about how they wanted Commissars to be a key tool for Guard players.

You reap what you sow.

Finally Gurlyman needs some slight tweeks (his auras should only effect infantry with Astaries KW.

Which Aura?

He has two of them. One only affects keyword "Ultramarines" units, the other affects keyword "Imperium" units.

Creatively used deep striking actually can do a lot to screw with conscript deployment.

If you have a lot of stuff that isn't on the board, the conscripts have two options:
1: spread across the board to limit your deep striking options
2: clump up and prepare to shoot anything that drops near them

The thing about this though, is they have to make this decision before you decide where to drop. This means that the deep striker can always react with a counter to whichever deployment method they use.

If they spread out across the board, drop an overwhelming force on one board edge so that they only have to engage one conscript squad. You should be able to punch through before the other squad can reinforce them, and proceed to gut whatever they were protecting. Even if they use Move Move Move to consolidate, you're getting at least one free turn and you're committing enough overkill to make that one turn count. You'll take losses, but unless RNG really screws you there should be enough to sweep the backfield once you have effected a breach.

If they clump up for ranked fire, then you have free reign to drop on their support instead. This is the less likely scenario, but it's also why you realistically don't have to worry about taking 400 shots from two squads unless you bring it on yourself. Either they're too spread out to concentrate their fire like that, or they don't cover enough board to force you to engage. If there is nothing else to engage for some reason (all-conscript army), you can still hit them on a flank so that you only have to engage one or two squads at a time. Because of their large board footprint, short range relative to their footprint, and low mobility, conscripts are extremely vulnerable to defeat-in-detail.

Conscripts need to be 1 per 2 infantry squads. If they couldn't recie orders they'd be useless or need to go down to 2pts/model to justify taking them. Ive used conscripts since 3rd ed and in the time between 5th and 8th theyve barely changed (always put a priest/commissar in there with them) Making them a tax free selection alllowing you to spam them is what has made them suddenly good. Well that and also the general issue with anti-horde being too weak but thats a game issue and not exclusive to conscripts. Making infantry squads a requirement to field conscripts is the sensible option.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Timeshadow wrote:
Like I said earlier the easiest solution I see is a 50% order fail on conscripts. (Conscripts are undisciplined)
When a commissar is used to prevent moral losses roll a 3+ save if he fails the conscripts rebel doing d3 mortal wounds to the commissar and eating the losses as per normal.
This allows you to still use them for bubble wrap but makes a 1/3 chance to kill the commissar and a 50% chance to ignore orders.

No.

Players outside of the Guard all wanted Guard to be a horde of bodies. They all kept talking about how they wanted Commissars to be a key tool for Guard players.

You reap what you sow.

Finally Gurlyman needs some slight tweeks (his auras should only effect infantry with Astaries KW.

Which Aura?

He has two of them. One only affects keyword "Ultramarines" units, the other affects keyword "Imperium" units.

Yes, that's what we all wanted, and there are a few things that were going on that stopped it from ever happening.
1. AP5 Ignores Cover was easy to acquire, and therefore cover wasn't even helping all too often.
2. Orders were actually hard to get off in certain circumstances.
3. The infantry actually weren't all that cheap compared to other options.

What happened was a bunch of things happened. Even regular AP5 does not do anything. Regular infantry got more durable, but it adds up with the super cheap buy in. Plus you got dedicated Anti-Infantry not actually doing a whole lot.

Bobug's suggestion of 1 conscript squad per 2 regular guard is a good idea that would mitigate them to a degree but I still think a chance to not get orders off and maby a chance to hurt or kill the commissar are good ideas.

I'm not saying do all this I'm saying these are suggestions that may solve the problem without gutting conscript usefulness.

As for Gurlyman All his auras should be limited to infantry only (he shouldn't be able to buff vehicles or artillery) and maby a slight price hike to 400pts.

Bobug wrote:
Conscripts need to be 1 per 2 infantry squads. If they couldn't recie orders they'd be useless or need to go down to 2pts/model to justify taking them. Ive used conscripts since 3rd ed and in the time between 5th and 8th theyve barely changed (always put a priest/commissar in there with them) Making them a tax free selection alllowing you to spam them is what has made them suddenly good. Well that and also the general issue with anti-horde being too weak but thats a game issue and not exclusive to conscripts. Making infantry squads a requirement to field conscripts is the sensible option.

Lol what?

You think without orders conscripts could be 2 points per model? Is this the level of delusion were dealing with here?

With a bullet. Just delete the entry.

They aren't necessary or distinct enough from normal squads to be taking up space, and guard infantry squads strain the low end of the points system enough themselves.

The math of the unit is just ridiculous, and the cascade of 100+ dice to 100+/3 dice to 100+/9(or12) dice just highlights the terribleness of the resolution system.

Voss wrote:
With a bullet. Just delete the entry.

They aren't necessary or distinct enough from normal squads to be taking up space, and guard infantry squads strain the low end of the points system enough themselves.

The math of the unit is just ridiculous, and the cascade of 100+ dice to 100+/3 dice to 100+/9(or12) dice just highlights the terribleness of the resolution system.

I'd be fine with that and then allowing large units of regular guardsman.

Yeah IG lost its ability to blob regular guardsmen. If they could do that, I wouldn't mind giving up conscripts - you could 'fluffily' represent them with blobs of unupgraded guardsmen and still be paying higher points.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Yeah IG lost its ability to blob regular guardsmen. If they could do that, I wouldn't mind giving up conscripts - you could 'fluffily' represent them with blobs of unupgraded guardsmen and still be paying higher points.

I dont get it though whats the point of blobbing up.

besides stacking benefits across the entire table rather than needing to spider out.

As time continues and I accumulate more games under my belt I find myself falling into the conscripts need a nerf bat camp. The real problem is that most of the purposed changes either 1) do not fix the problem, or 2) fundamentally change the guard codex. I run a conscript/ scion army and have faced most of the uber competitive army builds. On the competitive side, conscripts nullify the alpha strike and act as aura whores. In friendly/fluffy games they are unstoppable walls of flashlight death. I understand the divide between the two camps of wanting to nuke conscripts and wanting them to stay the same. From the IG players perspective they need bodies on the field to protect their big guns and it seems unjustified to nerf their unit that went unchanged from 7th to 8th ed. It also doesn't help the fact that the regular infantry squads are lack luster in the new edition and they lost access to veterans. From non IG players perspective most armies don't have a effective way to kill 150 men or take out the buffing characters. The other problem is most of them didn't fight against conscripts in 7th edition. I was running IG conscripts with scions in 7th and conscripts did exactly what they are doing now. While they were not Riptide Wing or Yennari strong, I could win against the majority of space marine lists.

I don't know how to fix conscripts. The comments on this thread (and others) are lacking real perspective. 1) They are not looking at the conversation from the other persons perspective and 2) It fails to address the real problems in 40k 8th edition.

The real problems in 40k 8th ed. 1) Character rules and buffs: This applies to conscripts/ commissars, Rowboat Girlyman and anything, Magnus with 6 demon princes surrounded by brimstones/blue horrors.
2) First turn alpha strikes: It has been shown that if you have first turn your chances of winning increase dramatically. The all fliers or super heavy lists are the biggest culprits of this.
3) Win conditions: The majority of games do not force tactics into securing objectives over killing the enemy. This means that most games involve spamming powerful units over playing the mission.
4) List building: It became very easy to take whatever you want in 7th and 8th edition because of formations/detachments. This makes it easy to spam certain powerful units and makes balance between units/codex near impossible.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Yeah IG lost its ability to blob regular guardsmen. If they could do that, I wouldn't mind giving up conscripts - you could 'fluffily' represent them with blobs of unupgraded guardsmen and still be paying higher points.

But then the same people would STILL be complaining about the same things for the same reason, and we'd also lose a fluffy unit that's existed for most of the lifespan of the game.

It's quickly becoming apparent that there's not going to be a reasonable outcome here. I suspect that even if that game I have is going goes as well as I think it will for SM and I show that the outcomes were of average probability, it's not going to be good enough for some people. Because the later part was already done half the thread ago with hypothetical units.

 Desubot wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Yeah IG lost its ability to blob regular guardsmen. If they could do that, I wouldn't mind giving up conscripts - you could 'fluffily' represent them with blobs of unupgraded guardsmen and still be paying higher points.

I dont get it though whats the point of blobbing up.

besides stacking benefits across the entire table rather than needing to spider out.

Orders are more efficient with larger squads, better hidden special/heavy weapons.

You want an actual way of changing Conscripts?

Then put them into the Militarum Auxilia--something I brought up ages ago in the fething Guard wishlist threads where people kept trying to shut me down for wanting the Guard to become closer to T'au in being an aura/support heavy army.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Breng77 wrote:

Voss wrote:
With a bullet. Just delete the entry.

They aren't necessary or distinct enough from normal squads to be taking up space, and guard infantry squads strain the low end of the points system enough themselves.

The math of the unit is just ridiculous, and the cascade of 100+ dice to 100+/3 dice to 100+/9(or12) dice just highlights the terribleness of the resolution system.

I'd be fine with that and then allowing large units of regular guardsman.

I wouldn't, and since it's my army--my vote counts for more than yours.

 daedalus wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Yeah IG lost its ability to blob regular guardsmen. If they could do that, I wouldn't mind giving up conscripts - you could 'fluffily' represent them with blobs of unupgraded guardsmen and still be paying higher points.

But then the same people would STILL be complaining about the same things for the same reason, and we'd also lose a fluffy unit that's existed for most of the lifespan of the game.

It's quickly becoming apparent that there's not going to be a reasonable outcome here. I suspect that even if that game I have is going goes as well as I think it will for SM and I show that the outcomes were of average probability, it's not going to be good enough for some people. Because the later part was already done half the thread ago with hypothetical units.

Less reason to complain about a unit that is 40% less durable per point, less if you actually buy upgrades for it.