Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

 Desubot wrote:

I dont get it though whats the point of blobbing up.

besides stacking benefits across the entire table rather than needing to spider out.

In the case of infantry, ablative wounds to keep those special/heavy weapons alive for more than a round. It basically all comes back to "Guard fold under sustained attacks. If Guard do not have a way to weather sustained attacks, then the guard player's entire game will be the process of deploying and then packing up."

 Kanluwen wrote:
You want an actual way of changing Conscripts?

Then put them into the Militarum Auxilia--something I brought up ages ago in the fething Guard wishlist threads where people kept trying to shut me down for wanting the Guard to become closer to T'au in being an aura/support heavy army.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Breng77 wrote:

Voss wrote:
With a bullet. Just delete the entry.

They aren't necessary or distinct enough from normal squads to be taking up space, and guard infantry squads strain the low end of the points system enough themselves.

The math of the unit is just ridiculous, and the cascade of 100+ dice to 100+/3 dice to 100+/9(or12) dice just highlights the terribleness of the resolution system.

I'd be fine with that and then allowing large units of regular guardsman.

I wouldn't, and since it's my army--my vote counts for more than yours.

So your input to balance is more relevant than mine because it is your army? Why the need for a stupidly broken cheap infantry unit that can easily be imitated through the use of regular guardsman if you are just trying for fluff.

Breng77 wrote:

Less reason to complain about a unit that is 40% less durable per point, less if you actually buy upgrades for it.

You, sir, vastly underestimate the Internet.

Breng77 wrote:

 daedalus wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Yeah IG lost its ability to blob regular guardsmen. If they could do that, I wouldn't mind giving up conscripts - you could 'fluffily' represent them with blobs of unupgraded guardsmen and still be paying higher points.

But then the same people would STILL be complaining about the same things for the same reason, and we'd also lose a fluffy unit that's existed for most of the lifespan of the game.

It's quickly becoming apparent that there's not going to be a reasonable outcome here. I suspect that even if that game I have is going goes as well as I think it will for SM and I show that the outcomes were of average probability, it's not going to be good enough for some people. Because the later part was already done half the thread ago with hypothetical units.

Less reason to complain about a unit that is 40% less durable per point, less if you actually buy upgrades for it.

And yet blob squads were still complained about in 7th, despite being more expensive than Conscripts...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Breng77 wrote:

So your input to balance is more relevant than mine because it is your army?

Yup. Now you're getting it!

Why the need for a stupidly broken cheap infantry unit that can easily be imitated through the use of regular guardsman if you are just trying for fluff.

Because that's what the non-Guard players want, don't you know?

Guard are supposed to be a tide of bodies, not a functioning army! They don't use tactics, they drown you in corpses! Never mind that this setup right now is closer to the way that the majority of Traitor Guard Regiments and Cultist Hordes are described as functioning...



Realistically, any idiot could see that this is the way things were going to swing because of the "Imperium" keywords--and the fact that the people who were consulted for playtesting are known for being of the mindset of Guard as a horde of bodies not a functioning army didn't help.

You all got the Guard you wanted. Mine are shelved until I get Codex: Cadia and an actual Guard army again.

 Kanluwen wrote:

Breng77 wrote:

 daedalus wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Yeah IG lost its ability to blob regular guardsmen. If they could do that, I wouldn't mind giving up conscripts - you could 'fluffily' represent them with blobs of unupgraded guardsmen and still be paying higher points.

But then the same people would STILL be complaining about the same things for the same reason, and we'd also lose a fluffy unit that's existed for most of the lifespan of the game.

It's quickly becoming apparent that there's not going to be a reasonable outcome here. I suspect that even if that game I have is going goes as well as I think it will for SM and I show that the outcomes were of average probability, it's not going to be good enough for some people. Because the later part was already done half the thread ago with hypothetical units.

Less reason to complain about a unit that is 40% less durable per point, less if you actually buy upgrades for it.

And yet blob squads were still complained about in 7th, despite being more expensive than Conscripts...

Different editions are different, but sure some people will always complain, I don't recall a ton of blob squad complaints beyond the beginning of 6th ed. Requiring 600 points to get the number of models that people are currently using for conscripts is a big difference. I'm of the opinion that any model that costs less than 5 points should have no better than a 6+ save, and should often be T2 (see gretchin) right now there are 2 such units that I am aware of (Conscripts and Brims) and both are considered way too good for their points cost.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Breng77 wrote:

 daedalus wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
Yeah IG lost its ability to blob regular guardsmen. If they could do that, I wouldn't mind giving up conscripts - you could 'fluffily' represent them with blobs of unupgraded guardsmen and still be paying higher points.

But then the same people would STILL be complaining about the same things for the same reason, and we'd also lose a fluffy unit that's existed for most of the lifespan of the game.

It's quickly becoming apparent that there's not going to be a reasonable outcome here. I suspect that even if that game I have is going goes as well as I think it will for SM and I show that the outcomes were of average probability, it's not going to be good enough for some people. Because the later part was already done half the thread ago with hypothetical units.

Less reason to complain about a unit that is 40% less durable per point, less if you actually buy upgrades for it.

And yet blob squads were still complained about in 7th, despite being more expensive than Conscripts...


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Breng77 wrote:

So your input to balance is more relevant than mine because it is your army?

Yup. Now you're getting it!

Why the need for a stupidly broken cheap infantry unit that can easily be imitated through the use of regular guardsman if you are just trying for fluff.

Because that's what the non-Guard players want, don't you know?

Guard are supposed to be a tide of bodies, not a functioning army! They don't use tactics, they drown you in corpses! Never mind that this setup right now is closer to the way that the majority of Traitor Guard Regiments and Cultist Hordes are described as functioning...



Realistically, any idiot could see that this is the way things were going to swing because of the "Imperium" keywords--and the fact that the people who were consulted for playtesting are known for being of the mindset of Guard as a horde of bodies not a functioning army didn't help.

You all got the Guard you wanted. Mine are shelved until I get Codex: Cadia and an actual Guard army again.

You seem to have a tainted view of "what we all wanted" I never asked for Guard to be what you suggest.

Another solution could be to require "an order for ever 10 models in the target unit" for the order to take effect, and that a commisar will summarily execute "one model for every 10 model in the unit" . That way these crucial buffs would not inflate in value with large blobs, yet both the commissars and order system will remain the same for regular conscripts squads.

pismakron wrote:
Another solution could be to require "an order for ever 10 models in the target unit" for the order to take effect, and that a commisar will summarily execute "one model for every 10 model in the unit" . That way these crucial buffs would not inflate in value with large blobs, yet both the commissars and order system will remain the same for regular conscripts squads.

I could see this, actually. An indirect buff to regular IG squads.

Good idea!

pismakron wrote:
Another solution could be to require "an order for ever 10 models in the target unit" for the order to take effect, and that a commisar will summarily execute "one model for every 10 model in the unit" . That way these crucial buffs would not inflate in value with large blobs, yet both the commissars and order system will remain the same for regular conscripts squads.

This is a stupid idea.

Company Commanders(Senior Officers) issue two Orders per turn.
Platoon Commanders issue one Order per turn.

So, effectively, you would need to be a Company Commander to order a basic Conscript Squad(they start at 20 models) to do anything, or you'd need two Platoon Commanders to do the same.

And since Orders target units and a unit can never be the target of more than one Order per turn, it would require a rework of the Order system from the outset--at which point you might as well just redesign Conscripts.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

pismakron wrote:
Another solution could be to require "an order for ever 10 models in the target unit" for the order to take effect, and that a commisar will summarily execute "one model for every 10 model in the unit" . That way these crucial buffs would not inflate in value with large blobs, yet both the commissars and order system will remain the same for regular conscripts squads.

I could see this, actually. An indirect buff to regular IG squads.

So what happens to squads that are less than 10 models to begin with, such as HWS, SWS, or CCS?

Do they just get to have Orders not take up an Order from the officer? Commissars can't do anything to them?

Good idea!

It's not, but of course you'd think it is...

Kanluwen wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

pismakron wrote:
Another solution could be to require "an order for ever 10 models in the target unit" for the order to take effect, and that a commisar will summarily execute "one model for every 10 model in the unit" . That way these crucial buffs would not inflate in value with large blobs, yet both the commissars and order system will remain the same for regular conscripts squads.

I could see this, actually. An indirect buff to regular IG squads.

So what happens to squads that are less than 10 models to begin with, such as HWS, SWS, or CCS?

Do they just get to have Orders not take up an Order from the officer? Commissars can't do anything to them?

Good idea!

It's not, but of course you'd think it is...

First of all, ask Dethypoo, Martel, or Marmatag and you'll learn I'm on your side - I want to nerf conscripts with a light touch, at best. There's definitely something out of whack with them as they are /right now/.

As for the Orders and Commissar nerfs suggested:

If its 1 order per ten and 1 mortal wound per ten, then units with less than 10 models still are on their first batch of 10 and therefore would take one order or one mortal wound, as they do now.

It's literally exactly the same as it is now except on conscripts, and considering I wanted to remove Orders completely from conscripts, I think this is an adequate compromise, killing at most 5 conscripts from a morale phase if they fail by that much but somehow still have more than 40 models left alive.

At BAO it was clear that the area denial and difficulty to remove conscripts - in conjunction with the other powerful tools guard have - made them the top 3 lists, 2 of which were undefeated.

They didn't even need orders to dominate.

Removing orders is a fine compromise to test first. I suspect that this won't actually change much, though. Don't put me in the "make them useless" bin. They need to function like a 3 pt model, and they just don't. Gretchin function like a 3 pt model. Conscripts don't. That's it.

Even if they had no orders and no armor, they still suck down insane firepower due to the wounding chart. And still have a huge physical footprint.

Hmmm... 120 conscripts, under orders do.. 2.3 wounds to a Land Raider at 24".

A Land Raider Crusader does 9 back at 24", or 12.6 at 12"
15 bolter guys inside average another 8.8 at 12".

Two of those setups could do 19 wounds moving up, then 40 odd with a good deploy, before any assaults. Up to that point the conscripts basically cant hurt them, so it all depends on what else is going on.

Still think the standard Raider is the better choice though, to fire Lascannons at Manticores or whatever.

Actually Kanluwen has a very good point, and it has not occured to me until now, but he is right.

back during 6th and 7th we had thread after thread about how we could fix the Guard codex and it always came down to two factions: Faction A composed of Guard players, whom wanted a good varied codex that allowed for everything from elite strike infantry, mechanised companies, drop troops, light infantry, scout companies, combined arms units, etc and Faction B composed primarily of Marine players, but also containing Eldar, Tau and some other factions players whom insisted that the Guard army should be a faceless, unvaried, massed Soviet style horde of cheap and useless infantry meat shielding a few tanks/artillery.
The Guard players wanted a varied and flexible codex
The Marine and co players wanted Codex: Blob Horde

Well, it looks like GW listened to little Timmy and co and gave us Codex: Soviet Penal Regiment. Congratulations all you whiners, you got what you wanted. Now live with it (and maybe next time do not tell us what we should want for our codex).

MoO I love you and all man, as a fellow guard player, but your posts are getting a bit vindictive in tone.

There's a ton more going on in the IG book than horde guard, it's just horde guard is the strongest right now.

I run a superheavy tank regiment though and am finding the Baneblades and their variants very fun, surprisingly so actually given that in previous editions it was a kinda on/off game type (either they brought the AT they needed or they didn't).

 Marmatag wrote:
At BAO it was clear that the area denial and difficulty to remove conscripts - in conjunction with the other powerful tools guard have - made them the top 3 lists, 2 of which were undefeated.

They didn't even need orders to dominate.

Couldn't be. Those were 30 man squads. The ones I keep hearing about that are the problem are the 50 man squads.

30 is still really strong. Maybe the more advanced players have figured out that they can save a few points by only taking EXACTLY what they need. If you aren't trying to use them for offense, and therefore don't care about order efficiency, this might be the case.

Jeez it's been a busy day on here - sorry to wait a few pages before responding.

 ross-128 wrote:
If that's their entire list:

Step 1: get a wave serpent with a missile launcher. Searchlights have a 48" range, have no character protections, and require LoS to work. The Wave Serpent can pick off searchlights early on, negating 1/3 of that list's firepower immediately. Once the searchlights are down its blast mode, twin shuriken catapult, and shield discharge should be able to reasonably contribute to anti-infantry.

It also gets you 13 T7/3+ wounds that they'll have to chew through sooner or later if they want to win.

Step 2: make sure your warlord is a psyker with Conceal. A Warlock will do. The -1 to hit bubble will counter the searchlights early on, and when they go down those conscripts will be hitting on 6+.

Step 3: Bring two minimum size units of swooping hawks with sunrifles. Stick them in deep strike reserve (two units on the table, two in reserve, checks out) to protect them from alpha strikes. Doing this also forces him to deploy in a counter-deepstrike formation, which in turn will allow you to drop into whichever piece of board can bring the fewest models to bear. Position yourself right and he might only be able to bring one of the two squads in range at all, and that only partially.

Warlock's job is to cast conceal every turn and be a walking -1 to hit bubble. The wave serpent can protect him from shooting until the hawks drop. Wave serpent's job is to take out the searchlights, be a wound sponge, then help mop up. Swooping hawks give the conscripts another -1 to hit, so they'll only hit on 6s while the searchlights are up, and be completely harmless when the searchlights are down.

If the opportunity presents itself the swooping hawks can leap over the conscripts, carpet-bombing them in the process, and take out the commissar/officer from behind to speed things up, then if they survive hop back over to the safety of the warlock. Since they and the wave serpent have Fly, they can also do an assault-withdraw-shoot cycle to throw some extra dice around (and if they withdraw instead, you negate FRFSRF. Win-win).

Peak single-round dice output should be 40 from the sunburst rifles, 10 power sword attacks (20 if the conscripts don't withdraw, but they probably will), 2d6+4 from the wave serpent's guns, and a couple mortal wounds from shield discharge and grenade bombing.

While it won't wipe out the conscripts quickly, it should eventually win by attrition. The missile launcher with its d6 damage (and two shots) shouldn't have much trouble taking out the 3-wound searchlights, the Wave Serpent is the only alpha strike target and it'll be fine, and the whole game the conscripts will be either hitting on 6 or unable to hit. The ability to dictate where the engagement happens should also allow the hawks to basically shut out one of the two squads for a couple turns via positioning, so they can achieve defeat-in-detail. And throwing a bit over 50 dice per round means they should be putting out enough damage to wrap things up by turn 5, especially since the conscripts won't get saves against most of it.

Should comfortably fit within a 500 point game (because who the heck plays exactly 400). If you do need to squeeze it into exactly 400, you'll have to drop a couple sunrifles for lasblasters. Allocate wounds to those unfortunate models first, to protect the sunrifles. You won't care about being in rapid-fire range because they won't be able to hit you.

Ok, you've read a few rules incorrectly so I'll get that out of the way first.
1) conceal doesn't work on vehicles, unless the vehicle is the psycher casting it (Hemlocks)
2) Sun rifle only gives -1 to hit for that turn's assault, not shooting the next turn.

I'm pretty sure that already defeats your concept but I promised to do the math so...

I'll assume IG lose the seize roll.

Turn 1 Eldar: It's possible to keep the Wave Serpent in range of the searchlight but out of range of the conscripts, if you keep it turned sideways against the back edge of the table. So, let's assume the missiles kill one of the searchlights (math is swingy on this one but I'll assume the Eldar uses a command point to overcome bad luck - like I said I am *not* trying to make this harder than reality on the Eldar player.

Turn 1 IG: Everyone moves up. Conscripts are just barely out of range (or only have a few models in range at best) so they advance and do the move move move order for 2 move phases worth of movement. They leave small tails around their officers.

Turn 2 Eldar: Again, I'll assume command points to ensure second searchlight killed by missiles. Hawks have a choice of landing at max range or landing in rapid-fire range. The only way they get conceal is if they land near the warlock (which is presumably near the Serpent that Conscripts have been sprinting towards), but this could be an advantage - you'll get rapid fire but conceal will offset their rapid-fire.

I'll assume the warlock casts conceal - Eldar player has infinite command points to handle these things for the sake of our scenario.

First round of shooting at the conscripts:

Serpent's Shuriken Cannon: 3 shots, 2 hit, 1.66 wound, 0.55 save (actually 0.44 save due to 6's being AP). 1 conscript dies.

Hawks's Lasblasters @ Rapid fire 8x4= 32 shots, 21.33 hit, 10.66 wound, 3.55 save, so 7 more conscripts die.

Exarch's Sunrifles 2x4= 8 shots, 5.33 hit, 2.66 wound, no saves, 3 more conscripts die. I'll allow them to die in both squads (which isn't unlikely but also not certain) so that they both have the debuff.

Now there are some decisions to make, but let me give you some advice - hawks do not do well against conscripts in close combat. It's not worth it. BUT, it probably is worth it to stop frfsrf with the wave serpent, so lets do that. I'll assume, yet again, that the Eldar player rolls well on the charge but does no actual damage in combat because it's a flipping wave serpent. Scratch that, I don't want any nit-picking to bring me down, I'll give you a kill.

Also, we have to back up for some movement math here. So far, the conscripts have moved 19" (2 moves and 2 advances thanks to move move move orders), however the officers have only moved 9" (move+advance). Knowing that you have deep strike, the officers probably would have started in the exact middle of the pack, so about 3" behind the deployment line. The officers are therefor 6" in front of the deployment line, or 6" away from the middle of the map. Conscript tail would want to go past them to cover them safely. The front edge of the conscript 7x7 block is at 19" forward, so the back edge is at 12". It takes 2 conscripts to cover the officers with a tail on either side. Let's make it 3 to be safe, so 6 of the 100 conscripts are on tail duty

Ok, back to the charge. 88 conscripts are still alive. The 6 on tail duty have single fire, the other 83 have rapid fire. 170 overwatch shots (not effected by debuffs). Thanks to sun-rifles, their attacks in cc will also be on 6's, so lets just lump this all together shall we? You charged the very center of the line to get both groups, so there's plenty of room to pile in on the sides. I think 10 bases around the front of the wave serpent is fair, so 30 cc attacks.

200 attacks even! How nice. 33.33 hit. 5.55 wound. 3.7 saves. WS takes 2 wounds.

Morale time. I'm assuming you split your attacks so congrats, 2 more kills. We now have 2 units of 43 conscripts.

IG Turn 2:

Now, before you complain about rapid fire range, I want to remind you that even without the combat, we'll have moved 25" forward at this point and even the back edge of the table is in Rapid-fire range. The pile-in and consolidate of the combat got us even closer. Our officers didn't get the bonus moves but do get an advance move, so they're more or less keeping up with the 6 conscripts who are tails.

Each conscript group shoots a different hawk group. 40 rapid fire and 3 singles for each. 83 shots. you still have conceal, and my searchlights are dead! So only 13.83 hit. 6.91 wound, 3.45 save. 3 dead hawks. Well, 3.5... if I'd combined both squads we'd be saying 7 dead hawks, out of your 10.

The conscripts charge. The range at this point is really easy. I'm getting tired, you kill a couple on overwatch but the math above is still mostly right - half the attacks because no rapid-fire, but they're back to hitting on 5's so it balances out. Math is clear, hawks are dead.

Do you want me to math the Warlock, Wave Serpent and conscripts all the way to the end? There are still over 80 conscripts to go here and I promise you, they win.

Please, PLEASE note that I have given as many advantages as I could think of to the Eldar here. If you see something I missed that you think hurts the conscripts, let me know, but let's not brush off all this time I just spent mathing out my poor space elves getting their faces rubbed in the dirt yet again...

 Insectum7 wrote:
Hmmm... 120 conscripts, under orders do.. 2.3 wounds to a Land Raider at 24".

A Land Raider Crusader does 9 back at 24", or 12.6 at 12"
15 bolter guys inside average another 8.8 at 12".

Two of those setups could do 19 wounds moving up, then 40 odd with a good deploy, before any assaults. Up to that point the conscripts basically cant hurt them, so it all depends on what else is going on.

Still think the standard Raider is the better choice though, to fire Lascannons at Manticores or whatever.

Price comparison 120 conscripts 360 points
LRC + 15 marines = 482 points.

Doing 2 wounds to the land raider at 24" = 12.5% of it's total wounds

Doing 9 wounds to 120 conscripts = 7.5% of it's total wounds at 24".

2 of those set ups is 964 points, and would get targeted by other things to take them out before they got to the lines. Since you are looking at 18% of the guard army and 48.2% of the marine army, it seems like the guard army would have a lot more going on.

As a little follow-up, anyone looking to help me on my challange, here's a hint: Don't take Eldar on foot. Toughness 3 dainty little glass cannons are the exact wrong thing to field against 100 lasguns, no matter what aspect they are. I don't think we have anything that can beat them, but if we do it'll either be Wraith or Vehicle based.

 Deathypoo wrote:
As a little follow-up, anyone looking to help me on my challange, here's a hint: Don't take Eldar on foot. Toughness 3 dainty little glass cannons are the exact wrong thing to field against 100 lasguns, no matter what aspect they are. I don't think we have anything that can beat them, but if we do it'll either be Wraith or Vehicle based.

The answer has to involve Wave Serpents because those are busted as well. But there's just not as much back up as the IG get.

 Deathypoo wrote:
As a little follow-up, anyone looking to help me on my challange, here's a hint: Don't take Eldar on foot. Toughness 3 dainty little glass cannons are the exact wrong thing to field against 100 lasguns, no matter what aspect they are. I don't think we have anything that can beat them, but if we do it'll either be Wraith or Vehicle based.

Or superheavies. When I was considering what army to run for my superheavy tank idea, Eldar came pretty close to Guard, though I ended up with guard because of unit variety on the table, and the fact that they actually field companies of the vehicles in the fluff.

I think superheavies play right into the IGs hands. But that's me.

Martel732 wrote:
I think superheavies play right into the IGs hands. But that's me.

I've been crushing most of the local guard lists recently. Being able to shove into combat with the Conscripts and then engage the artillery while being immune to retaliatory fire is just funny.

And if they fall back, then I bite the wounds and dive straight in again - they usually run out of space before I run out of tanks.

Martel732 wrote:
30 is still really strong. Maybe the more advanced players have figured out that they can save a few points by only taking EXACTLY what they need. If you aren't trying to use them for offense, and therefore don't care about order efficiency, this might be the case.

That's 10 more models than the base squad...

 Deathypoo wrote:
As a little follow-up, anyone looking to help me on my challange, here's a hint: Don't take Eldar on foot. Toughness 3 dainty little glass cannons are the exact wrong thing to field against 100 lasguns, no matter what aspect they are. I don't think we have anything that can beat them, but if we do it'll either be Wraith or Vehicle based.

I already posted a list that likely could grind the pure-conscript list into dust over the course of the five turns by a simple combination of tanking with a Wave Serpent and stacking to-hit penalties (which is remarkably effective against BS5+ for reasons that should be obvious).

And also by the end of that you'll have likely chewed through 102 guys with 10 troops, a transport, and a wizard so it should do plenty to satisfy an eldar superiority boner.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Deathypoo wrote:
As a little follow-up, anyone looking to help me on my challange, here's a hint: Don't take Eldar on foot. Toughness 3 dainty little glass cannons are the exact wrong thing to field against 100 lasguns, no matter what aspect they are. I don't think we have anything that can beat them, but if we do it'll either be Wraith or Vehicle based.

Or superheavies. When I was considering what army to run for my superheavy tank idea, Eldar came pretty close to Guard, though I ended up with guard because of unit variety on the table, and the fact that they actually field companies of the vehicles in the fluff.

Yeah, I'm kinda depressed about it but it looks like I might finally be forced to buy Forgeworld to deal with IG. There have always been tough match-ups but this is the most impossible anything has felt before (yes yes I know it was Eldar last edition - I only owned one WK and 6 bikes but I get it).

Most of the Forgeworld Eldar stuff just looks like lower-quality rip-offs to me though, I've never been too excited about it.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ross-128 wrote:

 Deathypoo wrote:
As a little follow-up, anyone looking to help me on my challange, here's a hint: Don't take Eldar on foot. Toughness 3 dainty little glass cannons are the exact wrong thing to field against 100 lasguns, no matter what aspect they are. I don't think we have anything that can beat them, but if we do it'll either be Wraith or Vehicle based.

I already posted a list that likely could grind the pure-conscript list into dust over the course of the five turns by a simple combination of tanking with a Wave Serpent and stacking to-hit penalties (which is remarkably effective against BS5+ for reasons that should be obvious).

And also by the end of that you'll have likely chewed through 102 guys with 10 troops, a transport, and a wizard so it should do plenty to satisfy an eldar superiority boner.

Go 2 more posts up, I responded to that suggestion of yours. It doesn't work :(

 Kanluwen wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
30 is still really strong. Maybe the more advanced players have figured out that they can save a few points by only taking EXACTLY what they need. If you aren't trying to use them for offense, and therefore don't care about order efficiency, this might be the case.

That's 10 more models than the base squad...

So? It's still 30 dudes that never die to battleshock that almost every high RoF weapon wounds on a 3 and gives a 5+ or 6+ save. That cost 90 pts. Again, I think T3 5+ might be undercosted across the board in 8th ed. We'll see, I guess.

 Deathypoo wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Deathypoo wrote:
As a little follow-up, anyone looking to help me on my challange, here's a hint: Don't take Eldar on foot. Toughness 3 dainty little glass cannons are the exact wrong thing to field against 100 lasguns, no matter what aspect they are. I don't think we have anything that can beat them, but if we do it'll either be Wraith or Vehicle based.

Or superheavies. When I was considering what army to run for my superheavy tank idea, Eldar came pretty close to Guard, though I ended up with guard because of unit variety on the table, and the fact that they actually field companies of the vehicles in the fluff.

Yeah, I'm kinda depressed about it but it looks like I might finally be forced to buy Forgeworld to deal with IG. There have always been tough match-ups but this is the most impossible anything has felt before (yes yes I know it was Eldar last edition - I only owned one WK and 6 bikes but I get it).

Most of the Forgeworld Eldar stuff just looks like lower-quality rip-offs to me though, I've never been too excited about it.

Aw fair enough. If you don't like it then you don't like it.

I'd never advise anyone to spend money on models they hate though. If you're that depressed about facing conscripts then turn down the game or something, or ask your opponents to not be dick-feths. I wouldn't buy something I hated just to win some games; honestly I'd rather take my lumps and lose than that! Though I know everyone emphasizes winning differently.

There was nothing in FW that made BA win in 6th/7th, so you're still ahead in 8th

The squad size doesn't matter.

What's the difference between 2x50 man squads and 3x 33 man conscript squads?

Answer: You need to have 3 conscript tails near the out-of-los commissar, as opposed to 2 tails.

It's fine. I'll just let the tournament results that will pour in over the next few months do the talking. lol.