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Martel732 wrote:
30 is still really strong. Maybe the more advanced players have figured out that they can save a few points by only taking EXACTLY what they need. If you aren't trying to use them for offense, and therefore don't care about order efficiency, this might be the case.

It's at this point that I genuinely wonder if what I'm doing with infantry squads wouldn't come out to basically the exact same effect other people are seeing with conscripts.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Deathypoo wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 Deathypoo wrote:
As a little follow-up, anyone looking to help me on my challange, here's a hint: Don't take Eldar on foot. Toughness 3 dainty little glass cannons are the exact wrong thing to field against 100 lasguns, no matter what aspect they are. I don't think we have anything that can beat them, but if we do it'll either be Wraith or Vehicle based.

Or superheavies. When I was considering what army to run for my superheavy tank idea, Eldar came pretty close to Guard, though I ended up with guard because of unit variety on the table, and the fact that they actually field companies of the vehicles in the fluff.

Yeah, I'm kinda depressed about it but it looks like I might finally be forced to buy Forgeworld to deal with IG. There have always been tough match-ups but this is the most impossible anything has felt before (yes yes I know it was Eldar last edition - I only owned one WK and 6 bikes but I get it).

Most of the Forgeworld Eldar stuff just looks like lower-quality rip-offs to me though, I've never been too excited about it.

Aw fair enough. If you don't like it then you don't like it.

I'd never advise anyone to spend money on models they hate though. If you're that depressed about facing conscripts then turn down the game or something, or ask your opponents to not be dick-feths. I wouldn't buy something I hated just to win some games; honestly I'd rather take my lumps and lose than that! Though I know everyone emphasizes winning differently.

I don't want to tell my good friend I won't play his favorite army now that it's good (although that'll work fine with other people at the club). I don't mind losing but I like to have it be a competition instead of 7 hours of forgone conclusion (With the one guy at least, we drink/eat/chat while we play and the games are long). Compared to those two, a few bucks on some iffy models is the least bad choice lol.

Jeeeeeez I'm whining so much that I'm going to start to deserve some of the insults people are flinging


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Marmatag wrote:
The squad size doesn't matter.

What's the difference between 2x50 man squads and 3x 33 man conscript squads?

Answer: You need to have 3 conscript tails near the out-of-los commissar, as opposed to 2 tails.

It's fine. I'll just let the tournament results that will pour in over the next few months do the talking. lol.

The whole point is that buffs multiplied by 50 are too efficient. If you take 3 squads of 33 then you need to buy another commissar (or have longer tails), another officer, and another searchlight, and you just gave yourself a severe nerf for no reason.

 daedalus wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
30 is still really strong. Maybe the more advanced players have figured out that they can save a few points by only taking EXACTLY what they need. If you aren't trying to use them for offense, and therefore don't care about order efficiency, this might be the case.

It's at this point that I genuinely wonder if what I'm doing with infantry squads wouldn't come out to basically the exact same effect other people are seeing with conscripts.

Maybe? Again, T3 5+ might be undercosted across the board. If they are dying in clumps of 10, then the battle shock thing doesn't even matter. The difference I is that I can kill 3 here, 4 there, 5 over there and force battle shock rolls. So it's less efficient. But still probably better than marines. I lost, through my own mistakes partially, hundreds of points of marines to two plasma bugs in one turn. This is physically impossible with guardsmen due to their cost.

 Marmatag wrote:
The squad size doesn't matter.

What's the difference between 2x50 man squads and 3x 33 man conscript squads?

Answer: You need to have 3 conscript tails near the out-of-los commissar, as opposed to 2 tails.

It's fine. I'll just let the tournament results that will pour in over the next few months do the talking. lol.

When does it become something you decide you can deal with? What about 10x10 man squads? I can do virtually the same thing with infantry, and you want to know what it costs me? Maybe a tank, tops. And I wind up with more redundancy in commanders/commissars so I'm (apparently) even more than impossible to snipe.

We are assuming that the orders matter at all. Which only matters if you voluntarily get within quadratap range.

Martel732 wrote:
We are assuming that the orders matter at all. Which only matters if you voluntarily get within quadratap range.

frfsrf makes 24" double tap range. That matters. Edit, also "Get back in the fight" is huge and is always used in rapid-fire range.

 Deathypoo wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
We are assuming that the orders matter at all. Which only matters if you voluntarily get within quadratap range.

frfsrf makes 24" double tap range. That matters. Edit, also "Get back in the fight" is huge and is always used in rapid-fire range.

I'm being generous here. Despite claims above to the contrary.

I think conscripts are fine.

What's not fine is their ability to shoot 4 times when ordered to.

Maybe nerf that... if they only shot once like cultists, or twice in rapid fire range, I wouldn't care. Though cultists are 5 pts for that amazing double tap potential. So maybe conscripts shouldn't shouldn't more than once.

So yeah... drop the rapid fire and make them exempt from "lol multishot" orders.

 Arkaine wrote:
I think conscripts are fine.

What's not fine is their ability to shoot 4 times when ordered to.

Maybe nerf that... if they only shot once like cultists, or twice in rapid fire range, I wouldn't care. Though cultists are 5 pts for that amazing double tap potential. So maybe conscripts shouldn't shouldn't more than once.

So yeah... drop the rapid fire and make them exempt from "lol multishot" orders.

Did you read the thread? Unlikely. Their durability is the primary problem.

Martel732 wrote:

Did you read the thread? Unlikely. Their durability is the primary problem.

Common problem among all the horde units this edition due to the nerf to anti-horde template/blast weapons. Not resolvable at a Conscript-level. At least they aren't a point cheaper with 4+ invulnerable saves like Brimstones.

Considering the win post is showing AM armies wiping the field in 2 turns, I'm more concerned with the offense.

In a non competitive meta they're probably fine, because you don't have people running them in a cheesy way.

"Oh i have 20 conscripts. in the middle of them is a commissar, marching up the field! What is area denial? I think i'll advance my conscripts turn1."

 Arkaine wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

Did you read the thread? Unlikely. Their durability is the primary problem.

Common problem among all the horde units this edition due to the nerf to anti-horde template/blast weapons. Not resolvable at a Conscript-level. At least they aren't a point cheaper with 4+ invulnerable saves like Brimstones.

Considering the win post is showing AM armies wiping the field in 2 turns, I'm more concerned with the offense.

I agree on all counts. Brimstones are a related problem, but demons can't have gunlines. Other hordes have schemes that are more manageable like synapse bugs that can be targeted or orks that break when you wear them down. Additionally, the bugs can't shoot. IG offense is also a HUGE problem exacerbated by conscripts.

Martel732 wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
30 is still really strong. Maybe the more advanced players have figured out that they can save a few points by only taking EXACTLY what they need. If you aren't trying to use them for offense, and therefore don't care about order efficiency, this might be the case.

That's 10 more models than the base squad...

So? It's still 30 dudes that never die to battleshock that almost every high RoF weapon wounds on a 3 and gives a 5+ or 6+ save. That cost 90 pts. Again, I think T3 5+ might be undercosted across the board in 8th ed. We'll see, I guess.

The 5+ save might be the save that benefited most from this edition, as in previous editions you basically never got a 5+ save against most anti-infantry weapons. Even anti-infantry weapons with better AP this edition are -1 AP, so you are getting a save against those as well.

Breng77 wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
Hmmm... 120 conscripts, under orders do.. 2.3 wounds to a Land Raider at 24".

A Land Raider Crusader does 9 back at 24", or 12.6 at 12"
15 bolter guys inside average another 8.8 at 12".

Two of those setups could do 19 wounds moving up, then 40 odd with a good deploy, before any assaults. Up to that point the conscripts basically cant hurt them, so it all depends on what else is going on.

Still think the standard Raider is the better choice though, to fire Lascannons at Manticores or whatever.

Price comparison 120 conscripts 360 points
LRC + 15 marines = 482 points.

Doing 2 wounds to the land raider at 24" = 12.5% of it's total wounds

Doing 9 wounds to 120 conscripts = 7.5% of it's total wounds at 24".

2 of those set ups is 964 points, and would get targeted by other things to take them out before they got to the lines. Since you are looking at 18% of the guard army and 48.2% of the marine army, it seems like the guard army would have a lot more going on.

Obviously.

But im noodling around with ideas that can A: potentially remove lots of conscripts quickly. Or B: ignore/shield their damage output.

Land Raiders look good to me since conscripts can't do jack against them if they remain beyond 12" away. The Raiders also give protection for models behind them, and good anti tank fire for knocking out guard artillery. The Crusaders was more of an excercise to see how much damage they coukd do. Killing 40 conscripts in a single firing round, without commander buffs, with only half an armys points worth might have some merit, regardless.

Martel732 wrote:
Brimstones are a related problem, but demons can't have gunlines.

They can if they have Pink Horrors with them, but it's much simpler to field a single Blue Horror per squad to attempt to spam Smite every turn.

Even without Blue Horrors, sacrificing a handful of 2 pt models that are extremely durable to cast Smites works quite well as a "gun line" due to mortal wounds ignoring all the rolls involved. No wounding, no saves, just make that 5+ psychic hit roll and it's cast.

1500 pts of Brimstones can average 50 mortal wounds per turn. No command auras needed.

 Arkaine wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

Did you read the thread? Unlikely. Their durability is the primary problem.

Common problem among all the horde units this edition due to the nerf to anti-horde template/blast weapons. Not resolvable at a Conscript-level. At least they aren't a point cheaper with 4+ invulnerable saves like Brimstones.

Considering the win post is showing AM armies wiping the field in 2 turns, I'm more concerned with the offense.

This is totally fixable at the conscript level. Just don't give better than a 6+ save to 3 point models while also making them morale immue. Brims have the same problem, they should have no save at their cost. Conscripts at their cost with their stats should similarly not have a save, at 4 points they should have a 6+ save.

 Arkaine wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Brimstones are a related problem, but demons can't have gunlines.

They can if they have Pink Horrors with them, but it's much simpler to field a single Blue Horror per squad to attempt to spam Smite every turn.

Even without Blue Horrors, sacrificing a handful of 2 pt models that are extremely durable to cast Smites works quite well as a "gun line" due to mortal wounds ignoring all the rolls involved. No wounding, no saves, just make that 5+ psychic hit roll and it's cast.

1500 pts of Brimstones can average 50 mortal wounds per turn. No command auras needed.

Are people just not doing this? Regardless, throw the brimstones into the "nerf bucket".

 Arkaine wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Brimstones are a related problem, but demons can't have gunlines.

They can if they have Pink Horrors with them, but it's much simpler to field a single Blue Horror per squad to attempt to spam Smite every turn.

Even without Blue Horrors, sacrificing a handful of 2 pt models that are extremely durable to cast Smites works quite well as a "gun line" due to mortal wounds ignoring all the rolls involved. No wounding, no saves, just make that 5+ psychic hit roll and it's cast.

1500 pts of Brimstones can average 50 mortal wounds per turn. No command auras needed.

Which really could be fixed by giving horrors the GK smite rules where they do a single wound.

So, say conscripts go away. Infantry firing is almost identical to the same points of conscripts firing. With that in mind, the obvious advantage is that it's cheaper to order any number of conscripts than it is to order a bunch of squads of infantry. But consider at the same time that you don't really HAVE to have commissars babysitting your squads, because the most you can ever lose from a given squad is 10, so you could save points for your wall there, and have it be only slightly less durable in the grand scheme of things. Also, assaulting infantry does jack about orders, because the other X squads will simply take their normal orders while that squad is falling back.

For 490 points I could have 100 infantry and three company commanders for support, meaning 1 squad doesn't get orders, oh well. Arguably, this is actually going to be better in some cases. And for a 140 point difference. Yeah, you have the same problem as before and you cost me less points than a tank.

Sounds like the meta has changed and people aren't changing with it.

 daedalus wrote:
So, say conscripts go away. Infantry firing is almost identical to the same points of conscripts firing. With that in mind, the obvious advantage is that it's cheaper to order any number of conscripts than it is to order a bunch of squads of infantry. But consider at the same time that you don't really HAVE to have commissars babysitting your squads, because the most you can ever lose from a given squad is 10, so you could save points for your wall there, and have it be only slightly less durable in the grand scheme of things. Also, assaulting infantry does jack about orders, because the other X squads will simply take their normal orders while that squad is falling back.

For 490 points I could have 100 infantry and three company commanders for support, meaning 1 squad doesn't get orders, oh well. Arguably, this is actually going to be better in some cases. And for a 140 point difference. Yeah, you have the same problem as before and you cost me less points than a tank.

Sounds like the meta has changed and people aren't changing with it.

There is no mathematical place to turn regarding 3 pt models immune to psychology who are largely wounded on a 3 by anti-infantry weapons.

I even am building for more anti-infantry, but it's just making me autolose to Nidzilla and I still can't beat hordes.

Breng77 wrote:
This is totally fixable at the conscript level. Just don't give better than a 6+ save to 3 point models while also making them morale immue. Brims have the same problem, they should have no save at their cost. Conscripts at their cost with their stats should similarly not have a save, at 4 points they should have a 6+ save.

Yep.

Martel732 wrote:
Are people just not doing this? Regardless, throw the brimstones into the "nerf bucket".

Yep.

Breng77 wrote:
Which really could be fixed by giving horrors the GK smite rules where they do a single wound.

Yep.

Martel732 wrote:

There is no mathematical place to turn regarding 3 pt models immune to psychology who are largely wounded on a 3 by anti-infantry weapons.

Melissia showed how to do it two different ways with Marines earlier in this same thread.

I even am building for more anti-infantry, but it's just making me autolose to Nidzilla and I still can't beat hordes.

Yeah, I do kind of get the feeling that this game became even more rock, paper, scissory than it's been. I'm convinced that her suggestion as a core could be a surprisingly strong use of tac marines. I'm also curious to see how it would work against vehicles/mcs. I'm guessing better than expected. I'll have to mathhammer on it a bit later on. I don't like running my own code in the office.

 daedalus wrote:
So, say conscripts go away. Infantry firing is almost identical to the same points of conscripts firing. With that in mind, the obvious advantage is that it's cheaper to order any number of conscripts than it is to order a bunch of squads of infantry. But consider at the same time that you don't really HAVE to have commissars babysitting your squads, because the most you can ever lose from a given squad is 10, so you could save points for your wall there, and have it be only slightly less durable in the grand scheme of things. Also, assaulting infantry does jack about orders, because the other X squads will simply take their normal orders while that squad is falling back.

For 490 points I could have 100 infantry and three company commanders for support, meaning 1 squad doesn't get orders, oh well. Arguably, this is actually going to be better in some cases. And for a 140 point difference. Yeah, you have the same problem as before and you cost me less points than a tank.

Sounds like the meta has changed and people aren't changing with it.

Except it is 140 points more and far less durable, no commissars means you can start taking extra wounds at 2 casualties, you also have 20 less wounds for more points, which equates to less other firepower. This also assumes you buy no upgrades on those infantry squads. IMO durability is the only issue with conscripts, orders are secondary. If they had no save or T2 and a 6+ save at 3 points (like gretchin) they would be manageable, especially if their morale immunity was similar to grots (d3 wounds on 1)

 daedalus wrote:
Yeah, I do kind of get the feeling that this game became even more rock, paper, scissory than it's been. I'm convinced that her suggestion as a core could be a surprisingly strong use of tac marines. I'm also curious to see how it would work against vehicles/mcs. I'm guessing better than expected. I'll have to mathhammer on it a bit later on. I don't like running my own code in the office.

The solution to that should be in the Stratagems. Using CP to turn the tables. We need to pray for Stratagems that are anti-horde so that it becomes more of a chess match where I see your rock and paperize the hell out of it.

"Melissia showed how to do it two different ways with Marines earlier in this same thread. "

With all due respect, she's dead wrong about the efficacy of her plan. I know marines MUCH better than her. Tac marines being 13 pts kill the plan. They aren't killy enough for a 13 pt model to grind though the wounds fast enough.

So she essentially showed me nothing.

 Deathypoo wrote:


Go 2 more posts up, I responded to that suggestion of yours. It doesn't work :(

You still made the mistake of engaging both blobs at the same time when I went out of my way to point out how much you could get out of using positioning to isolate them. Getting one extra commissar blam is not worth letting the second blob shoot at you. The only thing that should be engaging both blobs at once is the wave serpent, because you want it to be a bullet magnet and it wants to physically cram a wave serpent sized wedge between the two squads.

An eldar army has a ton of control over positioning. You know whether you're going first or not before you deploy, and can deploy accordingly. You can rapidly relocate your troops (or delay deployment via deep strike) to react to the enemy deployment stance.

Also, the sunrifle should work in the shooting phase based on the wording. It doesn't say anything about being restricted to the assault phase, and it says "until the end of THE turn", not "until the end of YOUR turn", so it should include both player's turns because each game turn includes both your turn and the opponent's. It's also pretty much the reason why assaulting the conscripts probably is worth it: the conscripts effectively won't be able to hit back, and thanks to the two-rank rule only a fraction of them can even attempt it.

The next best thing I can suggest is cramming the wave serpent full of Howling Banshees, though you'll still only want to engage one blob at a time. If you try to engage the entire enemy army at once they will just Lanchester's Square Law you to death.

Eldar have always been a finesse army. They pay a ton of points for mobility, so if you go charging down the center to engage the entire enemy force at once like a Space Marine you will always be at a disadvantage. Yes, this means Eldar are inherently difficult to play because mobility can be a difficult trait to exploit on limited board space. Eldar are also difficult to balance because if you make them equal in every other way, their mobility edge suddenly becomes a deciding factor in their favor.

If you want an army that can just beat down the front door of an enemy army with brute force I suggest Orks, 'Nids, Guard, or Space Marines. Or, really, anyone does the brute force game better than Eldar. Eldar rarely pay less than 20 points a model and rarely fire more than 4 shots, not exactly a pattern suited for Shock and Awe.

When you have a disadvantage in raw power but an advantage in mobility (which is basically par for the course for Eldar, no matter who they are facing), "Defeat in detail" should be your motto.

Breng77 wrote:

Except it is 140 points more and far less durable, no commissars means you can start taking extra wounds at 2 casualties, you also have 20 less wounds for more points, which equates to less other firepower. This also assumes you buy no upgrades on those infantry squads. IMO durability is the only issue with conscripts, orders are secondary. If they had no save or T2 and a 6+ save at 3 points (like gretchin) they would be manageable, especially if their morale immunity was similar to grots (d3 wounds on 1)

The claims are that people are getting tabled by guard who are doing this. Bringing one less tank won't turn most of those tablings into a win. And in some edge cases, like assault, it might actually be more effective, since the odds of overkilling an individual squad are greater.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Martel732 wrote:
"Melissia showed how to do it two different ways with Marines earlier in this same thread. "

With all due respect, she's dead wrong about the efficacy of her plan. I know marines MUCH better than her. Tac marines being 13 pts kill the plan. They aren't killy enough for a 13 pt model to grind though the wounds fast enough.

So she essentially showed me nothing.

She showed her math. It was pretty sound. I don't honestly know what evidence you'd accept at this point.

 daedalus wrote:

Breng77 wrote:

Except it is 140 points more and far less durable, no commissars means you can start taking extra wounds at 2 casualties, you also have 20 less wounds for more points, which equates to less other firepower. This also assumes you buy no upgrades on those infantry squads. IMO durability is the only issue with conscripts, orders are secondary. If they had no save or T2 and a 6+ save at 3 points (like gretchin) they would be manageable, especially if their morale immunity was similar to grots (d3 wounds on 1)

The claims are that people are getting tabled by guard who are doing this. Bringing one less tank won't turn most of those tablings into a win. And in some edge cases, like assault, it might actually be more effective, since the odds of overkilling an individual squad are greater.

They are getting tabled because people are taking forever to chew through the wounds, if you leave commissars at home, multi- assaulting the infantry squads will chew through them, and yes 1 less tank makes a big deal.

Looking at the top BAO list assuming you keep the commissars (which with infantry squads makes bubble wrapping more difficult due to squad size)

You had
Yarrik
2xCompany commander
Commisar
4 x 30 conscripts
21 x mortar team
3 x tempestor prime
3 x command squads - plasma
3 x 5 scions -plasma
3 x Taurox prime
Primaris psyker
Astropath
2 X Basilisk
3 x Earthshaker carriage


If you had to swap for 5 point chaff, you would need to cut 240 points out of your list, which means either 48 less chaff models, or cutting quite a lot else (both basilisks and the astropaths for example, or a command squad and a scion squad and something else...) so it makes a big difference.

If instead you had T2 6+ save chaff, or T3 with no save, you would cut through them much quicker and get to the core of his army, especially if morale were not limited to a single loss, but instead was D3 losses. In that case 20 bolter shots kills 9 conscripts on average, instead of killing only 6, then if morale was D3 it would end up being more like 11. Melee armies would chew through that even faster, giving you a single turn of chaff per squad instead of 3.

It's worth mentioning that Guard Infantry Squads are 4ppm, not 5, so he'd only have to free up 120 points, or less than the cost of a Basilisk.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
It's worth mentioning that Guard Infantry Squads are 4ppm, not 5, so he'd only have to free up 120 points, or less than the cost of a Basilisk.

Seems guard has the market cornered on cheap infantry then. How are cultists 5 points when guardsman are 4? I guess it is probably due to 10 man cap on squad size The basilisk is less than 120 points. So he would lose 1 basilisk and an astropath I guess. But he would lack enough commanders to order his units at that point.