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 Arkaine wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
I apologize-- the thread has gone by so fast that I missed yoru first post in it.

That's alright, and expected, and why I calmly restate my perspective so often for those who may have missed a point somewhere.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/720/733977.page#9527529

I clicked "filter thread" and looked.

Regardless, my own proposition was such:

Give conscripts two new rules.
"Decimation: When applying Summary Execution to a Conscript squad, roll 1d6 to determine the number of casualties; this cannot increase the number of casualties over what they would have received due to failing a morale check."
"Untrained Masses: When applying Orders to this unit, roll a 1d6. On a 1 or 2, the Order fails, and the conscripts cannot receive a new Order this turn.

Martel732 wrote:
The people claiming that marine players just want to stomp are absurd. Marines are turning out to be average at best in 8th. Even if conscripts were fixed tomorrow, that wouldn't change.

SM are still overpowered. Always have been and always will be.

Razorbacks with twin assault cannons, stormravens, guilliman... all marines units. And all among the overpowered stuff in 8th edtion.

Specific chapters like BA or SW are different armies, with tons of units in common but different key strenghts and styles.

AM is probably the top tier army in 8th, I believe it is, but it's not even remotely broken as SM, eldar or tau were in 7th edition. And those armies were overpowered even with casual lists while AM is very powerful only bringing the same list. Not everyone plays the same tournament list forever. Conscripts are not a problem, they're competitive, but there always have been competitive units in 40k. In 8th edition at least 10 other things should be toned down before them. And half of them are actually SM stuff.

 master of ordinance wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:
Let me just play another army; great answer. Or the better one "just ally in Guardsmen".

You got NO answer, Conscripts are just part of the problem and you won't even acknowledge it.

You are Deathwatch. You have frag cannons. You have flamers. You have a lot of horde killing stuff. All I am saying is make use of it. Or do the solution that so many Marine players gave to Guard players and ally in units.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Arkaine wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
I apologize-- the thread has gone by so fast that I missed yoru first post in it.

That's alright, and expected, and why I calmly restate my perspective so often for those who may have missed a point somewhere.

https://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/720/733977.page#9527529

That is a fair perspective to a point, however you fail to acount for numbers. 1v1 Light Infantry will die to Mediums and likewise Mediums to Heavies. What we have with conscripts, though, is a horde of Light Infantry taking on a very small unit of Heavy Infantry. Conscripts vs Marines will still lose in a 1v1 game, but when it comes to 5v1 the tables start to turn ever so slightly.

You're ignoring Frag cannons that while they are bread and butter are also 30 goddamn points. You can't spam them, 8 frag cannons is 240 point not including the bodies they're on. You have nothing but horrible answers like Eldar players gave to everyone.

EDIT: You say people are talking in bad faith, then what are you doing? Acting like the world is out to get you?

 master of ordinance wrote:
That is a fair perspective to a point, however you fail to acount for numbers. 1v1 Light Infantry will die to Mediums and likewise Mediums to Heavies. What we have with conscripts, though, is a horde of Light Infantry taking on a very small unit of Heavy Infantry. Conscripts vs Marines will still lose in a 1v1 game, but when it comes to 5v1 the tables start to turn ever so slightly.

I did not fail to account actually. The person I was responding to created an example of equal point values of gaunts vs space marines. It is my expressed opinion that if both sides have an equal number of points worth of models, the slightly heavier infantry will win due to attrition. This is simply the advantage stockier infantry have against horde troops, along with the superior weapons such infantry come with. Where the hordes win though is in attacking something even more elite with even fewer shots to compete with them, as at that point the attrition swings the other way and you're losing more points than you kill.

 Blackie wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
The people claiming that marine players just want to stomp are absurd. Marines are turning out to be average at best in 8th. Even if conscripts were fixed tomorrow, that wouldn't change.

SM are still overpowered. Always have been and always will be.

Razorbacks with twin assault cannons, stormravens, guilliman... all marines units. And all among the overpowered stuff in 8th edtion.

Specific chapters like BA or SW are different armies, with tons of units in common but different key strenghts and styles.

AM is probably the top tier army in 8th, I believe it is, but it's not even remotely broken as SM, eldar or tau were in 7th edition. And those armies were overpowered even with casual lists while AM is very powerful only bringing the same list. Not everyone plays the same tournament list forever. Conscripts are not a problem, they're competitive, but there always have been competitive units in 40k. In 8th edition at least 10 other things should be toned down before them. And half of them are actually SM stuff.

Any marine OPness is probably more bound to the fact that they have far more options than other factions, and so outliers are bound to happen. But probably 95% of those choices are definitely not OP.

7th ed. is totally irrelevant to the discussion, honestly.

It's still a bad idea to use Termagants as your basis for balance. Things can be broken but not overpowered, and right now, 'gants are exactly there.

Mind you, tyranids are leagues above where they were in previous editions, so most 'nid players aren't complaining too much about it. But you're not gonna find many of them arguing 'gants are the bees knees.

The reason Stormravens are insane is because they're firepower literally doubled and rerolls are easily accessible.

Combine that with the new vehicle firing rules and you get on demand firepower almost anywhere.

 Insectum7 wrote:

7th ed. is totally irrelevant to the discussion, honestly.

It's not. Because the majority of players that are complaining about conscripts wants to play like a no brainer. Just like they probably did in 7th edition. With SM mostly.

Conscripts' spam is not the reason why the AM is the current top tier army.

 Quickjager wrote:
The reason Stormravens are insane is because they're firepower literally doubled and rerolls are easily accessible.

Yeah, I did notice one thing immediately in the new edition... lots of things have doubled in wounds or survival and the new S vs T rules have nerfed wound rates... yet most weapons haven't become any stronger.

Plasmas are still 1 or 2 shots at S7, Meltas are still 1 shot at S8, Lascannons are still 1 shot at S9, Heavy Bolters are still 3 shots at S5. Heck, Flamers have probably gone down in the number of shots they can hit with since 1d6 is far less than the 10+ I could land before.

With things like normal Bolters no longer denying saves to things like Gaunts/Conscripts/Guard/Cultists, their survival has also increased. Even Heavy Bolters can't penetrate that 5+ armor.

So the result is that everything is a little better at surviving yet the guns are no better at killing. Hence the horde meta we now have. More shots = win.

Which is why my proposition was to get rid of those 4 shots per 3 pt Conscript scenarios. <_<


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 Blackie wrote:
Conscripts' spam is not the reason why the AM is the current top tier army.

It is at our place. Conscripts murdered a Wraithknight, the thing that was eating up all the tanks with ease fell to laser spam.

That's some immensely lucky rolling. With T8, 24 wounds, and a 3+ save it would take on average 2,400 conscript lasgun shots to take down. And if you Fortune'd your wraithknight that increases the number of shots on average to over three thousand. Yes, sure, it can happen faster; but it's not likely to.

Having a single conscript squad take down a wraithknight is about as likely for a single Terminator Captain with a thunder hammer to take down a Wraithknight on its lonesome. Actually, less likely than the captain.

 Melissia wrote:
That's some immensely lucky rolling. With T8, 24 wounds, and a 3+ save it would take on average 2,400 conscript lasgun shots to take down. And if you Fortune'd your wraithknight that increases the number of shots on average to over three thousand.

This. If you play 100 games with eldar vs AM that WK would be killed by conscripts' fire power maybe once or twice.

 Arkaine wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:
The reason Stormravens are insane is because they're firepower literally doubled and rerolls are easily accessible.

Yeah, I did notice one thing immediately in the new edition... lots of things have doubled in wounds or survival and the new S vs T rules have nerfed wound rates... yet most weapons haven't become any stronger.

Every twin linked weapon became twice as strong.

Well, close to twice as long. Now, instead of the predator twin-lascannon turret getting one shot that rerolls, it just flat out gets two shots. Quad-Las preds are something local players are thinking of picking up lately.

 Melissia wrote:
Well, close to twice as long. Now, instead of the predator twin-lascannon turret getting one shot that rerolls, it just flat out gets two shots. Quad-Las preds are something local players are thinking of picking up lately.

If you want to get nitty gritty one could bring in the ap mods system (Heavy Bolters got better vs. marines) or the damage mod (Las does D6 wounds vs. MCs now) etc. but it's neither here nor there. Units fire more heavy weapons, more effectively now. The weapons that lose out in the mix is stuff like the Bolter, whose AP previously butchered Guard in the open.

Twin linked weapons becoming two of the same weapon is a huge boon, regardless. You get my drift.

 Melissia wrote:
That's some immensely lucky rolling. With T8, 24 wounds, and a 3+ save it would take on average 2,400 conscript lasgun shots to take down.

Hitting on 5+ = (1/3) chance
Wound on 6 = (1/6) chance
Fail 3+ armor = (1/3) chance

(1/3)*(1/6)*(1/3) = 1/54

24 / (1/54) = 24 * 54 = 1296 Lasgun shots.

Not sure how you got on average 2400.

Could you share your math, or point out the error in mine?

 Melissia wrote:
That's some immensely lucky rolling. With T8, 24 wounds, and a 3+ save it would take on average 2,400 conscript lasgun shots to take down. And if you Fortune'd your wraithknight that increases the number of shots on average to over three thousand. Yes, sure, it can happen faster; but it's not likely to.

Having a single conscript squad take down a wraithknight is about as likely for a single Terminator Captain with a thunder hammer to take down a Wraithknight on its lonesome. Actually, less likely than the captain.

Actually he did this when the FAQ hadn't clarified the searchlight rules. Conscripts were hitting on 2+ and wounding on 6+ while shooting 4 times. So every Conscript had about a 50% chance of causing a wound. 3+ saves can fail.

 Arkaine wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
That's some immensely lucky rolling. With T8, 24 wounds, and a 3+ save it would take on average 2,400 conscript lasgun shots to take down. And if you Fortune'd your wraithknight that increases the number of shots on average to over three thousand. Yes, sure, it can happen faster; but it's not likely to.

Having a single conscript squad take down a wraithknight is about as likely for a single Terminator Captain with a thunder hammer to take down a Wraithknight on its lonesome. Actually, less likely than the captain.

Actually he did this when the FAQ hadn't clarified the searchlight rules. Conscripts were hitting on 2+ and wounding on 6+ while shooting 4 times. So every Conscript had about a 50% chance of causing a wound. 3+ saves can fail.

Ah, Forgeworld.

Marmatag wrote:
Could you share your math, or point out the error in mine?

My script says it happens about 51% of the time with your number of shots, so I'd assume you're on average. Melissia's has a 0.01% chance to fail, so maybe she was going for worst case? Still pretty silly though.

Arkaine wrote:
Actually he did this when the FAQ hadn't clarified the searchlight rules. Conscripts were hitting on 2+ and wounding on 6+ while shooting 4 times. So every Conscript had about a 50% chance of causing a wound. 3+ saves can fail.

I can do a million push-ups when no one's watching.

 Melissia wrote:
Ah, Forgeworld.

Yeah as people seem to love repeating to me, it's "100% legal" now and even the big tournaments are allowing it all in. Wish I could just ban it all and focus on balancing the core game that actually benefits the stores we play at.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 daedalus wrote:

Arkaine wrote:
Actually he did this when the FAQ hadn't clarified the searchlight rules. Conscripts were hitting on 2+ and wounding on 6+ while shooting 4 times. So every Conscript had about a 50% chance of causing a wound. 3+ saves can fail.

I can do a million push-ups when no one's watching.

Good for you. No clue what that has to do with anything.

 Arkaine wrote:

 Melissia wrote:
Ah, Forgeworld.

Yeah as people seem to love repeating to me, it's "100% legal" now and even the big tournaments are allowing it all in. Wish I could just ban it all and focus on balancing the core game that actually benefits the stores we play at.

I feel exactly the same way. Let's balance the game, and see some playtesting of the Forgeworld content, before it's rolled in.

Long story short though, 1296 Conscript shots to kill a WK.

 Insectum7 wrote:
Long story short though, 1296 Conscript shots to kill a WK.

Sadly that's not even the least effective way to kill a Wraithknight.

 Marmatag wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
Long story short though, 1296 Conscript shots to kill a WK.

Sadly that's not even the least effective way to kill a Wraithknight.

Sooo... A single SM squad throwing a single Frag grenade at it every turn?

I am not really sure where this thread is going.

I agree Termagaunts are probably up there for the worst infantry in the game. Although I wonder if that might go to Guardians.

Conscripts by contrast are amongst if not the best.

40k has never really been a system of "X" is meant to counter "Y". This idea of light and heavy infantry doesn't exist - its never mentioned in the game rules. Stuff either works or it doesn't.

Marines are good against Termagaunts because gaunts suck. They are bad against conscripts because conscripts are really good. The Marine doesn't change.

 master of ordinance wrote:

 Quickjager wrote:
Let me just play another army; great answer. Or the better one "just ally in Guardsmen".

You got NO answer, Conscripts are just part of the problem and you won't even acknowledge it.

You are Deathwatch. You have frag cannons. You have flamers. You have a lot of horde killing stuff. All I am saying is make use of it. Or do the solution that so many Marine players gave to Guard players and ally in units.

I'm Thousand Sons, we're probably in the best position to kill conscripts because warpflamers look like the ideal conscript killing weapon.

The problem is a Rubric with a warpflamer is 33 points, so each rubric has to kill 11 conscripts to earn their points back. That's just one Rubric, not the whole squad (the poor Aspiring Sorcerer I'm paying a premium for is wasting his smite on a 3 point model too). Even if you assume every hit is a kill (wounding on 3's with no armor save so it'll be good but not that good) that's 3 turns of uninterrupted shooting with none of the rubrics dying in the return fire. It's gonna look even worse if you math it out.

Now remember, this is the absolute ideal unit to be killing conscripts. Literally does not get better than a Rubric with a warpflamer, and it still looks pretty damn underwhelming.

Tyel wrote:
I am not really sure where this thread is going.

I agree Termagaunts are probably up there for the worst infantry in the game. Although I wonder if that might go to Guardians.

Conscripts by contrast are amongst if not the best.

40k has never really been a system of "X" is meant to counter "Y". This idea of light and heavy infantry doesn't exist - its never mentioned in the game rules. Stuff either works or it doesn't.

Marines are good against Termagaunts because gaunts suck. They are bad against conscripts because conscripts are really good. The Marine doesn't change.

The Termagaunt thing is basically a discussion on just how low, ideally, people would like to see Conscripts go. The Termagaunts are just a point of comparison, since it turns out they're a good example of a unit that sucks.

Some people apparently want them to be legit trash tier, and consider that to be the "correct" place for them. On the other hand, I'd like them to remain a bit on the strong side so that people actually have to stop now and then to ask, "what if they bring conscripts"?

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Marmatag wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
Long story short though, 1296 Conscript shots to kill a WK.

Sadly that's not even the least effective way to kill a Wraithknight.

Sooo... A single SM squad throwing a single Frag grenade at it every turn?

1296 conscript shots in a turn, at 1 shot per conscript, is 3,888 points.
648 marine shots in a turn, at 1 shot per marine, costs 8,424 points.

Marines are a less efficient way to kill a Wraithknight.

Tyel wrote:
40k has never really been a system of "X" is meant to counter "Y". This idea of light and heavy infantry doesn't exist - its never mentioned in the game rules. Stuff either works or it doesn't.
Marines are good against Termagaunts because gaunts suck. They are bad against conscripts because conscripts are really good. The Marine doesn't change.

Light Infantry is mentioned all over the Guard regiments, but if you're referring to spelling out what counters what, that's rarely listed in tactics games. It doesn't say Lascannons eat monstrous creatures alive but we use them because they're effective. That's what counters are... units or weapons that are effective against other units. They're not a game term though they are considered as part of the balancing of any good strategy game. You're focusing a bit too much on the Rock Paper Scissors thing that these other guys brought up which has nothing to do with what units are effective against other units in 40k. It's merely a comparison of stats, rate of fire and accuracy and damage versus the resiliency of the target. Hordes explode to mass bolter fire from space marines while something that uses a lascannon probably isn't going to be killing as many of them. If a unit is great against a particular unit, that in itself is the definition of a counter.

 Insectum7 wrote:
Long story short though, 1296 Conscript shots to kill a WK.

Pre-buffs, which for some reason the WK was mentioned as possibly being able to receive Fortune yet no buffs for the Conscripts were mentioned.

Now that the FAQ has neutered the Sable Weapon searchlights, Conscripts can still hit on 4+, wound on 6+, and shoot 4 times due to orders.

3/6*1/6= 8.3% chance to cause a wound per shot. That's at least 1 wound per 12 shots. The Wraithknight ignores on average 1/3 of those.
That means you need about 864 shots (24*12*3) to kill one with the order and searchlight buffs.

At 4 shots per conscript, 216 conscripts are needed to kill a Wraithknight in a single shooting phase.
Spread across four turns, you only need about 1 blob of them. Sure, the Wraithknight can target them instead but then he's not murdering your more threatening to his life tanks. And how long would it take a Wraithknight to wipe out a blob of 50 conscripts??

If people were only taking 1 blob of Conscripts, I'd kiss them on the lips.

 Marmatag wrote:

1296 conscript shots in a turn, at 1 shot per conscript, is 3,888 points.
648 marine shots in a turn, at 1 shot per marine, costs 8,424 points.

Marines are a less efficient way to kill a Wraithknight.

Yes. They're a particular amount of shooting. That's factored into their points. So is that power armor. So is that pistol. So are those krak grenades.

There's all that statline too. Oh, and that crazy ability that lets you capture points that other squads are on.

 Blackie wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
The people claiming that marine players just want to stomp are absurd. Marines are turning out to be average at best in 8th. Even if conscripts were fixed tomorrow, that wouldn't change.

SM are still overpowered. Always have been and always will be.

Razorbacks with twin assault cannons, stormravens, guilliman... all marines units. And all among the overpowered stuff in 8th edtion.

Specific chapters like BA or SW are different armies, with tons of units in common but different key strenghts and styles.

AM is probably the top tier army in 8th, I believe it is, but it's not even remotely broken as SM, eldar or tau were in 7th edition. And those armies were overpowered even with casual lists while AM is very powerful only bringing the same list. Not everyone plays the same tournament list forever. Conscripts are not a problem, they're competitive, but there always have been competitive units in 40k. In 8th edition at least 10 other things should be toned down before them. And half of them are actually SM stuff.

SM are not even close to overpowered. You're crazy. Twin assault cannons were hot for like two weeks. There's too many things in the game they are awful against for their cost. (Like mech)

"And those armies were overpowered even with casual lists"

You are absolutely out of your mind if you thought casual marine lists were OP in 7th.