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Martel732 wrote:
28 pages and very few concessions made by anyone. It's the Tau/Eldar all over again. And Waveserpents before that. And GK before that. And IG before that.

Can you concede that conscripts dont damage vehicles very well?


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 Xenomancers wrote:

You are just wrong. Conscripts aren't OP because of synergy. They are Flat out OP to begin with - then they get synergy on top of it - making them the best unit on all of 40k BY FAR.

Conscripts without a commissar would be pretty laughable. If they couldnt shoot after falling back, that would also be huge.

 Insectum7 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
28 pages and very few concessions made by anyone. It's the Tau/Eldar all over again. And Waveserpents before that. And GK before that. And IG before that.

Can you concede that conscripts dont damage vehicles very well?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xenomancers wrote:

You are just wrong. Conscripts aren't OP because of synergy. They are Flat out OP to begin with - then they get synergy on top of it - making them the best unit on all of 40k BY FAR.

Conscripts without a commissar would be pretty laughable.

Would they really? You can just bring a brigade and pick auto pass to LD for 2 command points something basically every turn until the game is over. Heck - more points for manticores. You have to include an HQ anyways tough so might as well.

Breng77 wrote:
And yet when changes to that synergy were suggested those were also shot down as too harsh....

Weren't shot down when I suggested them. In fact, people thought my suggestions were a good idea.

 Xenomancers wrote:
You are just wrong. Conscripts aren't OP because of synergy. They are Flat out OP to begin with - then they get synergy on top of it - making them the best unit on all of 40k BY FAR.

And this is what I'm talking about; 90% hyperbole.

Without synergy, conscripts can't double their firepower; at best, they can output the damage of a tactical squad, and being unable to fall back and shoot dramatically reduces their damage output. Without synergy, conscripts take massive amounts of casualties due to morale checks. Without synergy, conscript squads are incredibly static, having only basic infantry movement. They're at best a speed bump, and even then, not much of one. Marine players can delete an unsupported conscript squad in one turn of shooting+assault fairly easily.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
28 pages and very few concessions made by anyone. It's the Tau/Eldar all over again. And Waveserpents before that. And GK before that. And IG before that.

Can you concede that conscripts dont damage vehicles very well?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Xenomancers wrote:

You are just wrong. Conscripts aren't OP because of synergy. They are Flat out OP to begin with - then they get synergy on top of it - making them the best unit on all of 40k BY FAR.

Conscripts without a commissar would be pretty laughable.

Would they really? You can just bring a brigade and pick auto pass to LD for 2 command points something basically every turn until the game is over. Heck - more points for manticores. You have to include an HQ anyways tough so might as well.

You can only do that for 1 unit per turn, so yeah without a commissar limiting them to a single casualty and buffing their LD, they would be much easier to deal with. Do 10 casualties to 2 different Conscript squads. 1 Auto-passes, the other takes 6+ D6 casualties. Right now they would lose 2 model, between 2 different squads.


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 Melissia wrote:

Breng77 wrote:
And yet when changes to that synergy were suggested those were also shot down as too harsh....

Weren't shot down when I suggested them. In fact, people thought my suggestions were a good idea.

 Xenomancers wrote:
You are just wrong. Conscripts aren't OP because of synergy. They are Flat out OP to begin with - then they get synergy on top of it - making them the best unit on all of 40k BY FAR.

And this is what I'm talking about; 90% hyperbole.

Without synergy, conscripts can't double their firepower; at best, they can output the damage of a tactical squad, and being unable to fall back and shoot dramatically reduces their damage output. Without synergy, conscripts take massive amounts of casualties due to morale checks. Without synergy, conscript squads are incredibly static, having only basic infantry movement. They're at best a speed bump, and even then, not much of one. Marine players can delete an unsupported conscript squad in one turn of shooting+assault fairly easily.

I suggested that commissars do D3 wounds, and was told it was too harsh...soo

But yes without synergy they are much less good. I doubt though that Marine players could easily delete 50 conscripts in a singe turn.

Maybe not laughable, but if you're forcing the use of valuable CPs or sustainably doing more casualtues to them, IMO you're in a pretty good spot.

Breng77 wrote:
I suggested that commissars do D3 wounds, and was told it was too harsh...soo

Funny thing is, my solution was actually more harsh than yours. I suggested 1D6 I think that's more a reaction to the utterly ridiculous nerf suggested like removing their armor saves entirely or making them cost the same as guardsmen.

Breng77 wrote:
But yes without synergy they are much less good. I doubt though that Marine players could easily delete 50 conscripts in a singe turn.

Without synergy buffing the conscripts, a detachment of a captain, lieutenant, three 5-man tactical squads with flamer/combiflamers, in a pair of rhinos could delete 50 conscripts in one turn of shooting, grenades, and assault (using the rhinos to get in to flamer/grenade range and then to absorb overwatch, relying on popping smoke to survive turn one).

Yes, this is a lot of force to be focusing on one target-- slightly over three times the cost of the conscript squad before wargear on the HQ units. But it's not unreasonable to use ~3 times the points to completely delete a tarpit squad in a single turn.

That's assuming a 50-man blob of course. If the tarpit squad is spread out to the point that you can't actually kill all of them this way, well congratulations you just opened up a hole to take advantage of. If the tarpit squad is bubble wrapping, you just unwrapped them and you're set up for the one-two punch.

assuming that they haven't spent those same 3x points on having 2 more conscript walls to dig through after the first. But it would be better than now by a good deal.

If your objection is "I have to focus fire, this sucks!", well... yeah. If you want to take out a durable unit, you need more firepower than if you want to take out a fragile unit. That's just the nature of the game.

The issue is not that it needs focus fire to take them out, it is that it does, and they are super cheap so can be spammed. As I said doing away with the commissar morale buff goes a long way in helping this.

Breng77 wrote:
The issue is not that it needs focus fire to take them out, it is that it does, and they are super cheap so can be spammed.

150 points isn't really THAT cheap.

Especially when you consider that scions exist...

 Insectum7 wrote:
Unfortunately I'm not able to spend too much time pouring over Index Xenos atm, but I feel like an important move for Eldar is to threaten Commissars with Rangers. I looked and Doom appears to not require LOS, seems like if the Guard player slipped you could Doom-snipe the Commissars, commanders, etc.

Its not a full solution yet, but its one that can hamper enemy movement while the rest of your army does whatever it needs to. Its true that Eldar dont have much high-rate-of-fire guns though. Still mulling it over.

Minimum squad of snipers and a farseer is already over half the points cost... And I really have to stress that I don't think any Eldar on foot will ever be part of the answer. Lasguns are just entirely too effective against T3 W1 models that cost anywhere from 8 to 36 points, no matter what shenanigans they bring to the table.

Then again, our mech will lose to conscripts as well, at least for everything I've mathed out so far. So who knows.

 Deathypoo wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
28 pages and very few concessions made by anyone. It's the Tau/Eldar all over again. And Waveserpents before that. And GK before that. And IG before that.

With regards to the issue at hand, I'm glad a lot of IG players who argue against the more dramatic changes still agree that no orders on conscripts would be a good change. That's the best it can get I think.

People who claim they are IG players agree with that.

And they'd be wrong to do so.


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 Deathypoo wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
Unfortunately I'm not able to spend too much time pouring over Index Xenos atm, but I feel like an important move for Eldar is to threaten Commissars with Rangers. I looked and Doom appears to not require LOS, seems like if the Guard player slipped you could Doom-snipe the Commissars, commanders, etc.

Its not a full solution yet, but its one that can hamper enemy movement while the rest of your army does whatever it needs to. Its true that Eldar dont have much high-rate-of-fire guns though. Still mulling it over.

Minimum squad of snipers and a farseer is already over half the points cost... And I really have to stress that I don't think any Eldar on foot will ever be part of the answer. Lasguns are just entirely too effective against T3 W1 models that cost anywhere from 8 to 36 points, no matter what shenanigans they bring to the table.

Then again, our mech will lose to conscripts as well, at least for everything I've mathed out so far. So who knows.

If Rangers are in 24" of Conscripts, you're doing it wrong.

You have 12" extra to play with. Use it.

inb4themagictailexplanation

 Deathypoo wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
Unfortunately I'm not able to spend too much time pouring over Index Xenos atm, but I feel like an important move for Eldar is to threaten Commissars with Rangers. I looked and Doom appears to not require LOS, seems like if the Guard player slipped you could Doom-snipe the Commissars, commanders, etc.

Its not a full solution yet, but its one that can hamper enemy movement while the rest of your army does whatever it needs to. Its true that Eldar dont have much high-rate-of-fire guns though. Still mulling it over.

Minimum squad of snipers and a farseer is already over half the points cost... And I really have to stress that I don't think any Eldar on foot will ever be part of the answer. Lasguns are just entirely too effective against T3 W1 models that cost anywhere from 8 to 36 points, no matter what shenanigans they bring to the table.

Then again, our mech will lose to conscripts as well, at least for everything I've mathed out so far. So who knows.

One does not simply throw Eldar face-first into a meatgrinder and expect them to win. Considering every time someone suggests a lists and some tactics, you proceed to throw the tactics out the window and toss that list face-first into a meatgrinder. You then wonder why they do so poorly.

Based on the tactics you seem to prefer, I think Orks might fit your playstyle better.

 Melissia wrote:

Breng77 wrote:
And yet when changes to that synergy were suggested those were also shot down as too harsh....

Weren't shot down when I suggested them. In fact, people thought my suggestions were a good idea.

 Xenomancers wrote:
You are just wrong. Conscripts aren't OP because of synergy. They are Flat out OP to begin with - then they get synergy on top of it - making them the best unit on all of 40k BY FAR.

And this is what I'm talking about; 90% hyperbole.

Without synergy, conscripts can't double their firepower; at best, they can output the damage of a tactical squad, and being unable to fall back and shoot dramatically reduces their damage output. Without synergy, conscripts take massive amounts of casualties due to morale checks. Without synergy, conscript squads are incredibly static, having only basic infantry movement. They're at best a speed bump, and even then, not much of one. Marine players can delete an unsupported conscript squad in one turn of shooting+assault fairly easily.

Conscripts are included in almost every winning tournament list that I have seen. It's not Hyperbole. This is fact. Kinda of like the math that swaths of people are posting in this thread that shows how insane their point efficiency is compared to other units.

 ross-128 wrote:


One does not simply throw Eldar face-first into a meatgrinder and expect them to win. Considering every time someone suggests a lists and some tactics, you proceed to throw the tactics out the window and toss that list face-first into a meatgrinder. You then wonder why they do so poorly.

Based on the tactics you seem to prefer, I think Orks might fit your playstyle better.

But Orks can't sit back and shoot the Conscripts to death and there's no snipers to kill the Commissars and Officers!

 Xenomancers wrote:
Conscripts are included in almost every winning tournament list that I have seen.

^^^ has seen at most two tournaments

All of those tournament lists btw relied upon the synergy between conscripts, officers, and commissars.

 Xenomancers wrote:

Conscripts are included in almost every winning tournament list that I have seen. It's not Hyperbole. This is fact. Kinda of like the math that swaths of people are posting in this thread that shows how insane their point efficiency is compared to other units.

Conscripts being part of winning lists means diddly when mentioned in a vacuum.

We haven't seen Conscripts as part of a "pure" Guard list. We've only seen the Imperium lists so far.

 Kanluwen wrote:

If Rangers are in 24" of Conscripts, you're doing it wrong.

You have 12" extra to play with. Use it.

inb4themagictailexplanation

Sigh... why are the tails magical? They are so straightforward... and also unnecessary when dealing with rangers.

You place the commissar *behind* the conscripts, not in front. You place it 6" behind the *back* of the unit. Rangers have 36" range. So the *back* of the unit of conscripts is 30" from the rangers. They have feet. They use their feet to walk 6". Now the entire unit of conscripts is within 24" of the rangers and the rangers are all dead.

Even if they have a warlock for conceal, the searchlight allows them to still shoot and therefore slaughter the rangers.

Even if you kill the searchlights with something else, the conscripts can advance and move move move, and charge the rangers the next turn.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 ross-128 wrote:


One does not simply throw Eldar face-first into a meatgrinder and expect them to win. Considering every time someone suggests a lists and some tactics, you proceed to throw the tactics out the window and toss that list face-first into a meatgrinder. You then wonder why they do so poorly.

Based on the tactics you seem to prefer, I think Orks might fit your playstyle better.

But Orks can't sit back and shoot the Conscripts to death and there's no snipers to kill the Commissars and Officers!

You know your full of it, the Celestial Lions were decimated by Ork snipa's.

 ross-128 wrote:

 Deathypoo wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
Unfortunately I'm not able to spend too much time pouring over Index Xenos atm, but I feel like an important move for Eldar is to threaten Commissars with Rangers. I looked and Doom appears to not require LOS, seems like if the Guard player slipped you could Doom-snipe the Commissars, commanders, etc.

Its not a full solution yet, but its one that can hamper enemy movement while the rest of your army does whatever it needs to. Its true that Eldar dont have much high-rate-of-fire guns though. Still mulling it over.

Minimum squad of snipers and a farseer is already over half the points cost... And I really have to stress that I don't think any Eldar on foot will ever be part of the answer. Lasguns are just entirely too effective against T3 W1 models that cost anywhere from 8 to 36 points, no matter what shenanigans they bring to the table.

Then again, our mech will lose to conscripts as well, at least for everything I've mathed out so far. So who knows.

One does not simply throw Eldar face-first into a meatgrinder and expect them to win. Considering every time someone suggests a lists and some tactics, you proceed to throw the tactics out the window and toss that list face-first into a meatgrinder. You then wonder why they do so poorly.

Based on the tactics you seem to prefer, I think Orks might fit your playstyle better.

I have run a scenario as straightforward as possible every single time with the math to show not only dice rolls, but distances... And people act like it's so magically freaking impossible to get the conscripts in 24" range of anything. I literally give every single benefit to the Eldar that I can think of, every time, just to TRY to avoid nit-picking. People always find one spot where they say THEY can avoid range (without ever saying explicitly where they'd place their units to do it, just leaving it as a given that my math is all wrong).

And at the end of every example, where I show the conscripts dominate while losing like 1/4th of their number, people will settle on one nit-picky factoid like that invalidates the whole thing. The scenarios are never remotely close, the fact that you thought of one small adjustment that keeps 2 extra hawks alive for one more turn doesn't change that the vast majority of conscripts are still alive and will just kill you the next turn.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Conscripts are included in almost every winning tournament list that I have seen. It's not Hyperbole. This is fact. Kinda of like the math that swaths of people are posting in this thread that shows how insane their point efficiency is compared to other units.

Conscripts being part of winning lists means diddly when mentioned in a vacuum.

We haven't seen Conscripts as part of a "pure" Guard list. We've only seen the Imperium lists so far.

A unit being so good it is taken by other armies in preference to their own options tells us a lot about the balance of said unit.

 Deathypoo wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

If Rangers are in 24" of Conscripts, you're doing it wrong.

You have 12" extra to play with. Use it.

inb4themagictailexplanation

Sigh... why are the tails magical? They are so straightforward... and also unnecessary when dealing with rangers.

The reason they're "magical" is anytime someone has suggested something to you, there's magically a tail that lets the Conscripts wrap around a piece of cover/vehicle/whatever protecting the Commissars and Officers so they can do their business while the Conscripts can still fire.

So basically it's because you make the most wonderfully "Best Case" scenarios when it comes to the Conscript's side of things while ignoring the possibility for the opposite side to have such a thing.

You place the commissar *behind* the conscripts, not in front. You place it 6" behind the *back* of the unit. Rangers have 36" range. So the *back* of the unit of conscripts is 30" from the rangers. They have feet. They use their feet to walk 6". Now the entire unit of conscripts is within 24" of the rangers and the rangers are all dead.

So your argument is that a unit which can start off the board is parked in front of a unit of Conscripts, with nothing blocking LOS.

Even if they have a warlock for conceal, the searchlight allows them to still shoot and therefore slaughter the rangers.

Remind me again why the Rangers have parked themselves where a Searchlight--a stationary piece of gear--can see them?

Even if you kill the searchlights with something else, the conscripts can advance and move move move, and charge the rangers the next turn.

Which leaves a whole turn for the Rangers to shoot the Conscripts or maneuver away from them.

Why is it that your scenarios only involve the Conscripts or Guard elements moving or having support?



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Quickjager wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 ross-128 wrote:


One does not simply throw Eldar face-first into a meatgrinder and expect them to win. Considering every time someone suggests a lists and some tactics, you proceed to throw the tactics out the window and toss that list face-first into a meatgrinder. You then wonder why they do so poorly.

Based on the tactics you seem to prefer, I think Orks might fit your playstyle better.

But Orks can't sit back and shoot the Conscripts to death and there's no snipers to kill the Commissars and Officers!

You know your full of it, the Celestial Lions were decimated by Ork snipa's.

To that end, I will admit I really want to see a unit of Gretchin Snipers...


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SilverAlien wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Xenomancers wrote:

Conscripts are included in almost every winning tournament list that I have seen. It's not Hyperbole. This is fact. Kinda of like the math that swaths of people are posting in this thread that shows how insane their point efficiency is compared to other units.

Conscripts being part of winning lists means diddly when mentioned in a vacuum.

We haven't seen Conscripts as part of a "pure" Guard list. We've only seen the Imperium lists so far.

A unit being so good it is taken by other armies in preference to their own options tells us a lot about the balance of said unit.

No, it tells us a lot about tournaments...

Notably that players try to cram as much as they can into a list, pointswise, and go for what they deem the most efficient way to do so.

 Melissia wrote:

Breng77 wrote:
The issue is not that it needs focus fire to take them out, it is that it does, and they are super cheap so can be spammed.

150 points isn't really THAT cheap.

Especially when you consider that scions exist...

A minimum squad of Rubrics without any upgrades is 119 points. Only two of them need to be carrying a warpflamer (and they should be carrying warpflamers) to equal the cost of your 50 man squad of conscripts.

To most any army that isn't Astra Militarum, 150 points for 50 wounds is insanely cheap.

First - most lists don't have snipers. Why? Because snipers suck. The ones that do have snipers - you just park a tank to block LOS - stand farther away from said snipers - konga line situation is far more efficient than points wasted on snipers that can't even see characters or are out of range to characters. Plus there is redudancy as a strategy. Can always just take 3+ commasars which are cheap as gak when the end result is - take this combo and automatically win - you can afford to waste a few points to make sure that combo works everytime.

 Kanluwen wrote:
No, it tells us a lot about tournaments...

Notably that players try to cram as much as they can into a list, pointswise, and go for what they deem the most efficient way to do so.

The unit being the most point efficient way to do something to the point it becomes a staple across multiple armies is again a good indicator that balance is off.

Conscripts are too good right now. You can argue how and why, but its obvious there is an issue. The people who think it stops and ends with orders also amuse me.

 Deathypoo wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
Unfortunately I'm not able to spend too much time pouring over Index Xenos atm, but I feel like an important move for Eldar is to threaten Commissars with Rangers. I looked and Doom appears to not require LOS, seems like if the Guard player slipped you could Doom-snipe the Commissars, commanders, etc.

Its not a full solution yet, but its one that can hamper enemy movement while the rest of your army does whatever it needs to. Its true that Eldar dont have much high-rate-of-fire guns though. Still mulling it over.

Minimum squad of snipers and a farseer is already over half the points cost... And I really have to stress that I don't think any Eldar on foot will ever be part of the answer. Lasguns are just entirely too effective against T3 W1 models that cost anywhere from 8 to 36 points, no matter what shenanigans they bring to the table.

Then again, our mech will lose to conscripts as well, at least for everything I've mathed out so far. So who knows.

 Xenomancers wrote:
First - most lists don't have snipers. Why? Because snipers suck. The ones that do have snipers - you just park a tank to block LOS - stand farther away from said snipers . . . . [and so forth]

Right. But, Rangers are a decent Troops choice for Eldar, and a Farseer with Doom (which is an amazing power) is sort of a no-brainer thing to have around, as far as I can tell. These are points not spent to take out conscripts, from what I'm seeing. These are points spent because you're playing Eldar in the first place. Every turn they don't spend shooting at Commissars is a turn they can do something else. From my perspective, you're threatening Commissar-sniping almost for free, by their mere presence.

Like I said previously, I don't think it's a full solution. But I think it's a good move to make, regardless.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Deathypoo wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

If Rangers are in 24" of Conscripts, you're doing it wrong.

You have 12" extra to play with. Use it.

inb4themagictailexplanation

Sigh... why are the tails magical? They are so straightforward... and also unnecessary when dealing with rangers.

The reason they're "magical" is anytime someone has suggested something to you, there's magically a tail that lets the Conscripts wrap around a piece of cover/vehicle/whatever protecting the Commissars and Officers so they can do their business while the Conscripts can still fire.

So basically it's because you make the most wonderfully "Best Case" scenarios when it comes to the Conscript's side of things while ignoring the possibility for the opposite side to have such a thing.

To me, it's always there when needed. The only thing "magical" would be if it "magically" wasn't there when someone wanted to try to get a flyer closest-to-closest. If your IG players don't do this as a given, maybe it's no wonder you don't think conscripts are OP.

Also, what good would a tail do for rangers? Every time someone comes back with a positioning issue, I try to accommodate it if they can articulate it, but calling the IG player "magical" and implying the Eldar player is stupid doesn't give me a basis to re-run any numbers.

You place the commissar *behind* the conscripts, not in front. You place it 6" behind the *back* of the unit. Rangers have 36" range. So the *back* of the unit of conscripts is 30" from the rangers. They have feet. They use their feet to walk 6". Now the entire unit of conscripts is within 24" of the rangers and the rangers are all dead.

So your argument is that a unit which can start off the board is parked in front of a unit of Conscripts, with nothing blocking LOS.

Even if they have a warlock for conceal, the searchlight allows them to still shoot and therefore slaughter the rangers.

Remind me again why the Rangers have parked themselves where a Searchlight--a stationary piece of gear--can see them?

The Eldar player has to put them someplace with los on the commissar. On a more open table (like the ones I normally play on), this means everyone has los to almost any place. On a more crowded one, there's only going to be so many places the Rangers can legally deploy with los to the commissar.

My scenarios are more "line-em-up and go" because I don't know how on earth we're supposed to objectively determine who comes out ahead if both players are trying to deploy smart.

Honestly, you guys act like it's a CRAZY assumption that a commissar would hide behind a tank in a large game, but somehow these rangers are going to have the perfect terrain to snipe the commissar without being seen by a searchlight and also without being inside the conscripts shooting range despite that being mathematically impossible if the guard player doesn't deploy like an idiot.

Even if you kill the searchlights with something else, the conscripts can advance and move move move, and charge the rangers the next turn.

Which leaves a whole turn for the Rangers to shoot the Conscripts or maneuver away from them.

Why is it that your scenarios only involve the Conscripts or Guard elements moving or having support?

I never denied Rangers support, or movement, I just don't see the point of movement, and the support you're asking for needs to be specified.

I wasn't assuming the Rangers wouldn't get another turn to shoot, I'm just not seeing that it matters.

Or better yet they start to run. Conscripts actually have an order to advance and shoot, on top of "move move move," so literally nothing the rangers can do will allow them to outrun the conscripts.

This is exactly the nit-picky nonsense that has no effect on the results but is used as if it discredits everything I wrote.

Look, if you want to be taken seriously, put it all on the table. Describe the terrain, describe the placement and the distances and work out the math behind the dice rolls (and show each step to better spot potential errors.). I'm really tired of putting a lot of work in to mathing out these scenarios and then just being told I did it wrong with no proof. Support what you're saying with numbers.

SilverAlien wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
No, it tells us a lot about tournaments...

Notably that players try to cram as much as they can into a list, pointswise, and go for what they deem the most efficient way to do so.

The unit being the most point efficient way to do something to the point it becomes a staple across multiple armies is again a good indicator that balance is off.

Conscripts are too good right now. You can argue how and why, but its obvious there is an issue. The people who think it stops and ends with orders also amuse me.

Several of us IG players have agreed that conscripts need nerfed. However, the whiners here aren't going to be happy unless they are turned into complete trash. Cutting their firepower in HALF is LITERALLY not good enough for you.

Don't worry. If Marines are truly getting curb stomped by IG on a regular basis GW won't let it last.

"Can you concede that conscripts dont damage vehicles very well? "

I never commented on that. Ever. Conscripts don't kill much outside 12" that well in general. That's not my concern. It's all about taking up space and being THE tarpit in the game. The offense is just a cherry on top. They are so cheap that they could not shoot at all and still be effective.

"Cutting their firepower in HALF is LITERALLY not good enough for you. "

Read my above comment. Understand what they are are being used for and what their true power is.

 Insectum7 wrote:

 Deathypoo wrote:

 Insectum7 wrote:
Unfortunately I'm not able to spend too much time pouring over Index Xenos atm, but I feel like an important move for Eldar is to threaten Commissars with Rangers. I looked and Doom appears to not require LOS, seems like if the Guard player slipped you could Doom-snipe the Commissars, commanders, etc.

Its not a full solution yet, but its one that can hamper enemy movement while the rest of your army does whatever it needs to. Its true that Eldar dont have much high-rate-of-fire guns though. Still mulling it over.

Minimum squad of snipers and a farseer is already over half the points cost... And I really have to stress that I don't think any Eldar on foot will ever be part of the answer. Lasguns are just entirely too effective against T3 W1 models that cost anywhere from 8 to 36 points, no matter what shenanigans they bring to the table.

Then again, our mech will lose to conscripts as well, at least for everything I've mathed out so far. So who knows.

 Xenomancers wrote:
First - most lists don't have snipers. Why? Because snipers suck. The ones that do have snipers - you just park a tank to block LOS - stand farther away from said snipers . . . . [and so forth]

Right. But, Rangers are a decent Troops choice for Eldar, and a Farseer with Doom (which is an amazing power) is sort of a no-brainer thing to have around, as far as I can tell. These are points not spent to take out conscripts, from what I'm seeing. These are points spent because you're playing Eldar in the first place. Every turn they don't spend shooting at Commissars is a turn they can do something else. From my perspective, you're threatening Commissar-sniping almost for free, by their mere presence.

Like I said previously, I don't think it's a full solution. But I think it's a good move to make, regardless.

Ah, yeah, jumping around from thread to thread over the course of a week destroys context haha. My own personal crusade is to find a list of Craftworld Eldar that can beat conscripts on cost. 100 conscripts+commissar+officer+2 searchlights is 401 points. I want a list, I don't care how tailored, that can beat that for the same points cost. At this point I'll up it to anything <500 points, because no list has been remotely close so far.