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 Tannhauser42 wrote:

 Mr. Burning wrote:

 curran12 wrote:
Remember, even after transition you still must announce it at all times. You can never live in the present.

The amount of victim blaming here is absurd, especially since people are so at pains to try and hide it.

The fear is real for some.

We will probably never know why the victim never told her assailant about that aspect of her past before intercourse.

For all we know, maybe she thought she did, or actually did, tell him at some point early on. We only have his side of the story, after all.

They met on a dating site, so odds are the majority of their communications are recorded somewhere. It might come to light at some point.

15 years for robbery? that seems excessive.

Overall this may be an example of how weird some guys can get about the fear of being gay or not being manly. It was a really gakky move of that transgender person not to divulge that info beforehand, but his reaction to it is obviously fethed.

I've never understood why guys get so weird about this stuff, like can't compliment their male friends or admit another guy is good looking. It doesn't make you less of a man and it doesn't make you less of a man to bone another man either. Who cares. I've always been attracted to women, but I got a bj from a ladyboy in thailand, she was hot and I don't give af. Be comfortable with who you are folks (as long as you're not a gakky person).

 benlac wrote:
It was a really gakky move of that transgender person not to divulge that info beforehand

Why? I don't have to tell people about my medical history prior to engaging in a bit of hanky-panky. The only people who really should are those who have a condition which can put their panky-partner at risk, such as people with STI's.

 Sgt_Smudge wrote:

 curran12 wrote:
Remember, even after transition you still must announce it at all times. You can never live in the present.

If I'm having sex with someone who doesn't know what they're getting into, I think it's more than fair to have a right to know.

Does that give them a right to stab you? No. No-one is suggesting that.

The amount of victim blaming here is absurd, especially since people are so at pains to try and hide it.

No-one is saying that the victim is the worst person here.

No ones defended the killer. Killer is a scumbag. If they disliked it they could of walked out the door, gone feth you and left that at that. No needs to die.

But merely commented that for full consent to be given, then certain factors must be truthfully revealed.
If someone is not into that and say no, that may be unkind, or someone might not like it but it gives them the choice to make freely, and in a informed manner.

If someone's fine with it, go have much sex as you damn well please.

Consent and honesty are related.

If you are able to be attracted to someone and consummate a physical relationship with someone, then either it doesn't matter if that person used to be the same gender as you, or you're a little more gay than you thought you were.

Is it ironic that the only sex this guy's gonna get for the rest of his life is the kind he thought he had to stab the victim 120 times over?

 feeder wrote:
If you are able to be attracted to someone and consummate a physical relationship with someone, then either it doesn't matter if that person used to be the same gender as you, or you're a little more gay than you thought you were.

Again you assume the only thing that matters when consenting to sex is physical attraction. There are people who lie about all sorts of things to get people into bed, but I guess that doesn't matter because if the other person ultimately consented to a physical relationship, none of those lies could have mattered really.

 Howard A Treesong wrote:

 feeder wrote:
If you are able to be attracted to someone and consummate a physical relationship with someone, then either it doesn't matter if that person used to be the same gender as you, or you're a little more gay than you thought you were.

Again you assume the only thing that matters when consenting to sex is physical attraction. There are people who lie about all sorts of things to get people into bed, but I guess that doesn't matter because if the other person ultimately consented to a physical relationship, none of those lies could have mattered really.

No, I'm not assuming that. They had a 2 month online courtship before meeting in person. That's almost exclusively non-physical, apart from pictures that could be exchanged.

 Howard A Treesong wrote:

 feeder wrote:
If you are able to be attracted to someone and consummate a physical relationship with someone, then either it doesn't matter if that person used to be the same gender as you, or you're a little more gay than you thought you were.

Again you assume the only thing that matters when consenting to sex is physical attraction. There are people who lie about all sorts of things to get people into bed, but I guess that doesn't matter because if the other person ultimately consented to a physical relationship, none of those lies could have mattered really.

People fail to disclose a lot of things. Mental illness, past indiscretions, strange anatomical issues, high blood pressure, fear of clowns, etc. Human sexual relations are full of uncertainty, half truths, misdirections, and outright lies. If you find out about something you dislike, you end the relationship. The trans did not expose the killer to anything dangerous, they just engaged in a sexual relationship that the latter later regretted. That is far from unusual.

The issue is that western heterosexual males are challenged by the idea that they could be attracted in a way they think is "bad" as much as it is about any deception. No one would be complaining because someone dyed their hair, had false breasts, etc. and failed to disclose that despite those being obvious modifications. Likewise, people mislead about job and social status consistently. The worse is usually a breakup when the deceived finds out (but not always). Here, since it impacts on sexuality as perceived as a rigid definition of self, people react differently, and often with some degree of hostility.

Yeah this is a weird thread.

I feel like if a person is trans, went through the post-op procedure and is a woman during sex as far as I know, then they don't have to tell me they were trans.

I hope they would feel safe and comfortable enough to tell me at some point, but I absolutely have no 'right' or even obligation to be told that knowledge, even after sex.

My girlfriend right now could be a trans-woman and was born a man. I'm not going to ask her, and if she chooses to tell me so, I am not going to care, and might even go right back to the hanky-panky.

Because it is enjoyable.

Obviously the only solution is mandatory consent forms with complete medical histories, filled out, countersigned by your doctor and submitted in-triplicate to the local police station. It's the only way to make sure we aren't going into sex blind.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:
Obviously the only solution is mandatory consent forms with complete medical histories, filled out, countersigned by your doctor and submitted in-triplicate to the local police station. It's the only way to make sure we aren't going into sex blind.

Already in placed in most US college campuses. *

*not really.

Alright I have to play devil advocate here. Just because no one else is - and I find this rather sickening.

Why do we not perceive the man here as a victim? He partook in something he never would have done knowingly. How is that different that rape?

Lets say that a man tricked a women into sleeping with someone else. For this example he put a mask over her face but it was part of the sexual act that they usually partook in. Then he switched placed with his identical twin brother. Twin brother tells her - she feels raped (this is rape) and kills him in a fit of passion?

How would you be reacting to that story? Because it's practically the same situation. Someone fooled someone into having sex with someone they didn't want to have sex with. Then tells them after.

For most straight men - most would rather die than have sex with a man. Imagine the instability that could cause in someone that felt that way? How is it possible that the trans-gendered person did not know it's dangerous to tell a man you just slept with that you were once a man? To me this seems malicious.

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 benlac wrote:
It was a really gakky move of that transgender person not to divulge that info beforehand

Why? I don't have to tell people about my medical history prior to engaging in a bit of hanky-panky. The only people who really should are those who have a condition which can put their panky-partner at risk, such as people with STI's.

It's an act of deception to be born a man, change it and then hide that from your partner prior to sex. The only reason not to divulge that is selfish fear that your potential partners won't want to have sex with you -which is exactly why you should tell them in the first place. Be an adult and be candid about your gender as I guarantee you many of your partners would like to know that information beforehand and they are operating under the assumption you are biologically female.
Yeah it won't physically harm them not to know, but for some guys (mostly dummies) I'm sure it would cause them psychological harm whereas actually being brunette and dyeing your hair blonde would not, that's the difference.

 benlac wrote:
15 years for robbery? that seems excessive.

Overall this may be an example of how weird some guys can get about the fear of being gay or not being manly. It was a really gakky move of that transgender person not to divulge that info beforehand, but his reaction to it is obviously fethed.

I've never understood why guys get so weird about this stuff, like can't compliment their male friends or admit another guy is good looking. It doesn't make you less of a man and it doesn't make you less of a man to bone another man either. Who cares. I've always been attracted to women, but I got a bj from a ladyboy in thailand, she was hot and I don't give af. Be comfortable with who you are folks (as long as you're not a gakky person).

Since the robbery was part of the assault and murder it's armed robbery and that's a pretty severe crime in Mississippi.

§ 97-3-79. Robbery; use of deadly weapon
Every person who shall feloniously take or attempt to take from the person or from the presence the personal property of another and against his will by violence to his person or by putting such person in fear of immediate injury to his person by the exhibition of a deadly weapon shall be guilty of robbery and, upon conviction, shall be imprisoned for life in the state penitentiary if the penalty is so fixed by the jury; and in cases where the jury fails to fix the penalty at imprisonment for life in the state penitentiary the court shall fix the penalty at imprisonment in the state penitentiary for any term not less than three (3) years.

 Xenomancers wrote:
Alright I have to play devil advocate here. Just because no one else is - and I find this rather sickening.

Why do we not perceive the man here as a victim? He partook in something he never would have done knowingly. How is that different that rape?

Lets say that a man tricked a women into sleeping with someone else. For this example he put a mask over her face but it was part of the sexual act that they usually partook in. Then he switched placed with his identical twin brother. Twin brother tells her - she feels raped (this is rape) and kills him in a fit of passion?

How would you be reacting to that story? Because it's practically the same situation. Someone fooled someone into having sex with someone they didn't want to have sex with. Then tells them after.

For most straight men - most would rather die than have sex with a man. Imagine the instability that could cause in someone that felt that way? How is it possible that the trans-gendered person did not know it's dangerous to tell a man you just slept with that you were once a man? To me this seems malicious.

I think this is possibly one of the most disgusting things I've read all week, and I'm on reddit.

.... that's not rape. It's alot of other things, but definitely not rape.

...this thread is going places...

 Xenomancers wrote:
Alright I have to play devil advocate here. Just because no one else is - and I find this rather sickening.

Why do we not perceive the man here as a victim? He partook in something he never would have done knowingly. How is that different that rape?

Lets say that a man tricked a women into sleeping with someone else. For this example he put a mask over her face but it was part of the sexual act that they usually partook in. Then he switched placed with his identical twin brother. Twin brother tells her - she feels raped (this is rape) and kills him in a fit of passion?

How would you be reacting to that story? Because it's practically the same situation. Someone fooled someone into having sex with someone they didn't want to have sex with. Then tells them after.

For most straight men - most would rather die than have sex with a man. Imagine the instability that could cause in someone that felt that way? How is it possible that the trans-gendered person did not know it's dangerous to tell a man you just slept with that you were once a man? To me this seems malicious.

The reason the man isn't a victim is because he stabbed the other person to death. If the murderer had just left after harsh words and hurt feelings then maybe he could have made a case that he was taken advantage of and had sexual intercourse without his consent but his decision to commit murder removes his victimhood (if he ever had any) because saying "she tricked me" (even if that's accurate) doesn't give him the right to commit murder, there's no excuse for his crime.

This is an absolutely horrible story.

While I in no way condone what this man did, it very well may have been predictable. Again, NOT victim blaming.

Many men, dare I say even most, would have some level of shock when they are surprised like that. Hypothetically, if I were a trans person I'd make that fact perfectly clear to any prospective dating partner, or at least before we ever got close to intimacy. That's just for my own physical safety.

The fact that this was a young, probably pretty macho, navy man likely didn't help the issue. The probability of physical violence after springing that kind of info on someone is pretty high.

 Xenomancers wrote:

For most straight men - most would rather die than have sex with a man.

Citation seriously fething needed. Frankly, if someone would rather be killed than have sex with another human being in a consensual context, then I question the sanity of that person.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 cuda1179 wrote:
The probability of physical violence after springing that kind of info on someone is pretty high.

Only if the person is psychologically and emotionally unstable to the point that they should have been receiving serious medical help.

 benlac wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 benlac wrote:
It was a really gakky move of that transgender person not to divulge that info beforehand

Why? I don't have to tell people about my medical history prior to engaging in a bit of hanky-panky. The only people who really should are those who have a condition which can put their panky-partner at risk, such as people with STI's.

It's an act of deception to be born a man, change it and then hide that from your partner prior to sex. The only reason not to divulge that is selfish fear that your potential partners won't want to have sex with you -which is exactly why you should tell them in the first place. Be an adult and be candid about your gender as I guarantee you many of your partners would like to know that information beforehand and they are operating under the assumption you are biologically female.
Yeah it won't physically harm them not to know, but for some guys (mostly dummies) I'm sure it would cause them psychological harm whereas actually being brunette and dyeing your hair blonde would not, that's the difference.

If there's something that the person you're about to have sex with could tell you that would drive you into a murderous rage during which you would do potentially lethal harm to that person then it is in your own best interests to ask the person about it before getting busy. Whatever you might want to know, do you have a STD?, are you married or in a serious relationship?, do you do drugs?, are you transgendered?, did you ever work as a prostitute?, etc. whatever question you need to ask to make sure things don't go horribly wrong later it's your responsibility to address whatever mental, emotional or physical baggage/issues you're bringing into the situation.

Prestor Jon wrote:

 benlac wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 benlac wrote:
It was a really gakky move of that transgender person not to divulge that info beforehand

Why? I don't have to tell people about my medical history prior to engaging in a bit of hanky-panky. The only people who really should are those who have a condition which can put their panky-partner at risk, such as people with STI's.

It's an act of deception to be born a man, change it and then hide that from your partner prior to sex. The only reason not to divulge that is selfish fear that your potential partners won't want to have sex with you -which is exactly why you should tell them in the first place. Be an adult and be candid about your gender as I guarantee you many of your partners would like to know that information beforehand and they are operating under the assumption you are biologically female.
Yeah it won't physically harm them not to know, but for some guys (mostly dummies) I'm sure it would cause them psychological harm whereas actually being brunette and dyeing your hair blonde would not, that's the difference.

If there's something that the person you're about to have sex with could tell you that would drive you into a murderous rage during which you would do potentially lethal harm to that person then it is in your own best interests to ask the person about it before getting busy. Whatever you might want to know, do you have a STD?, are you married or in a serious relationship?, do you do drugs?, are you transgendered?, did you ever work as a prostitute?, etc. whatever question you need to ask to make sure things don't go horribly wrong later it's your responsibility to address whatever mental, emotional or physical baggage/issues you're bringing into the situation.

Ah but then they may not get to have sex if the answer to "Are you transgender?" is no but the potential partner is upset at their interpretation of the implications of the questions (e.g. "Do you think I look like a man? How could you say that?!"). It is selfish for people not to put forward that information on their own so that the person with the emotional and psychological hang-ups doesn't have to potentially expose themselves to annoying or insulting their potential interest.

 whembly wrote:
.... that's not rape. It's alot of other things, but definitely not rape.

...this thread is going places...

Actually Whenbly, here in the US that IS rape. A number of men have spent years in prison for just that kind of thing. If I remember correctly there have been case where a guy slipped into a woman's bed at night and in the dark she thought it was her husband. Rape conviction. A guy pretended to be someone he wasn't to a blind woman. Rape conviction. A guy pretended to "have connections" for a job applicant. Rape conviction.


In Israel a man was convicted of rape for making the woman believe he was her religion. (One was Jewish, the other Muslim. I forget which way this went).

 Xenomancers wrote:
For most straight men - most would rather die than have sex with a man.

Dude. Blimey. I consider myself 100% hetero, but I'd rather have sex with a man than lose a finger, never mind die. If it's clean and consensual and everything. It's just a physical act, and at least he might enjoy it, so there's that. It would depend on the man of course, and he'd have to buy me a few drinks ..

As to 'most', of the 20 hetero males I know best, I think perhaps 2 might agree with you. And one of them is my 70 year old dad. And even then, if you could find him a 30 year old Jack Nicklaus lookalike, maybe not.

What is so terrifying?

As to the OT, he murdered her.

Why should disclosure be the burden of the trans person?

Maybe people who aren't cool with the idea of partnering with transgender people ought to be open about that early in the relationship.

Except for psychological factors, the only real difference between a potential long-term relationship with a trans person and a potential long-term relationship with a non-trans person is that trans people aren't capable of having children by the usual biological processes. (AFAIK.)

Xenomancers wrote:Alright I have to play devil advocate here. Just because no one else is - and I find this rather sickening.

Why do we not perceive the man here as a victim? He partook in something he never would have done knowingly. How is that different that rape?

Lets say that a man tricked a women into sleeping with someone else. For this example he put a mask over her face but it was part of the sexual act that they usually partook in. Then he switched placed with his identical twin brother. Twin brother tells her - she feels raped (this is rape) and kills him in a fit of passion?

How would you be reacting to that story? Because it's practically the same situation. Someone fooled someone into having sex with someone they didn't want to have sex with. Then tells them after.

For most straight men - most would rather die than have sex with a man. Imagine the instability that could cause in someone that felt that way? How is it possible that the trans-gendered person did not know it's dangerous to tell a man you just slept with that you were once a man? To me this seems malicious.

They weren't 'fooled' into having sex with someone they didn't want to. They had consenting, adult sex. A better analogy would be that you can only have sex with brunettes for some weird psychological reason, but she admitted afterwards that she was blonde and had hair dye in. That's just ... normal life?

benlac wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

 benlac wrote:
It was a really gakky move of that transgender person not to divulge that info beforehand

Why? I don't have to tell people about my medical history prior to engaging in a bit of hanky-panky. The only people who really should are those who have a condition which can put their panky-partner at risk, such as people with STI's.

It's an act of deception to be born a man, change it and then hide that from your partner prior to sex. The only reason not to divulge that is selfish fear that your potential partners won't want to have sex with you -which is exactly why you should tell them in the first place. Be an adult and be candid about your gender as I guarantee you many of your partners would like to know that information beforehand and they are operating under the assumption you are biologically female.
Yeah it won't physically harm them not to know, but for some guys (mostly dummies) I'm sure it would cause them psychological harm whereas actually being brunette and dyeing your hair blonde would not, that's the difference.

It's not an act of deception to omit information that's not relevant. I don't tell my partner what dish-soap the office kitchen uses at work. The only time being 'biologically female' would matter before intercourse is if you were trying to have kids, because that actually will pose a problem.

Otherwise, a post-op trans-woman and a woman are the same thing, sexually.

If sleeping with a trans-woman causes people 'psychological harm' then perhaps that's a problem with society that needs fixing?

 cuda1179 wrote:

 whembly wrote:
.... that's not rape. It's alot of other things, but definitely not rape.

...this thread is going places...

Actually Whenbly, here in the US that IS rape. A number of men have spent years in prison for just that kind of thing. If I remember correctly there have been case where a guy slipped into a woman's bed at night and in the dark she thought it was her husband. Rape conviction. A guy pretended to be someone he wasn't to a blind woman. Rape conviction. A guy pretended to "have connections" for a job applicant. Rape conviction.


In Israel a man was convicted of rape for making the woman believe he was her religion. (One was Jewish, the other Muslim. I forget which way this went).

Radically different facts. The guy slipping in pretending to be someone else is a fundamental misrepresentation of a different person, not a failure to disclose a personal trait. Just like if a twin pretended to be his brother to sleep with the wife, it would be rape. Same for the blind person- the consent was for a different person entirely and the perpetrator knew that.

The connections one needs a clearer citation. A guy misrepresenting to be higher in the food chain to bed someone doesn't strike me as a sexual assault.

Israel is a whole different kettle of fish and I would steer away from examples from the ME in general. Regardless, it doesn't support your premised that in the US it is rape.

Generally, the question is consent. Each state has their own caselaw, but I think arguing this as a sexual assault would not play well in most jurisdictions.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
Why should disclosure be the burden of the trans person?

Maybe people who aren't cool with the idea of partnering with transgender people ought to be open about that early in the relationship.

Except for psychological factors, the only real difference between a potential long-term relationship with a trans person and a potential long-term relationship with a non-trans person is that trans people aren't capable of having children by the usual biological processes. (AFAIK.)

Well the numbers of trans people are really small less then 1% and asking a cis woman if she was a man or a man if he was a she will piss that person off

As for problems with it other then they can't have kids is they higher cancer risks and the surprise risk(having a 3ed party tell)




Automatically Appended Next Post:

 jmurph wrote:

 cuda1179 wrote:

 whembly wrote:
.... that's not rape. It's alot of other things, but definitely not rape.

...this thread is going places...

Actually Whenbly, here in the US that IS rape. A number of men have spent years in prison for just that kind of thing. If I remember correctly there have been case where a guy slipped into a woman's bed at night and in the dark she thought it was her husband. Rape conviction. A guy pretended to be someone he wasn't to a blind woman. Rape conviction. A guy pretended to "have connections" for a job applicant. Rape conviction.


In Israel a man was convicted of rape for making the woman believe he was her religion. (One was Jewish, the other Muslim. I forget which way this went).

Radically different facts. The guy slipping in pretending to be someone else is a fundamental misrepresentation of a different person, not a failure to disclose a personal trait. Just like if a twin pretended to be his brother to sleep with the wife, it would be rape. Same for the blind person- the consent was for a different person entirely and the perpetrator knew that.

The connections one needs a clearer citation. A guy misrepresenting to be higher in the food chain to bed someone doesn't strike me as a sexual assault.

Israel is a whole different kettle of fish and I would steer away from examples from the ME in general. Regardless, it doesn't support your premised that in the US it is rape.

Generally, the question is consent. Each state has their own caselaw, but I think arguing this as a sexual assault would not play well in most jurisdictions.

In some sates in the US it is rape if a man lies about what job he has and there was the story in the UK were a woman was just jailed for pretending to be a man and having sex with another woman

Oldmike wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
Why should disclosure be the burden of the trans person?

Maybe people who aren't cool with the idea of partnering with transgender people ought to be open about that early in the relationship.

Except for psychological factors, the only real difference between a potential long-term relationship with a trans person and a potential long-term relationship with a non-trans person is that trans people aren't capable of having children by the usual biological processes. (AFAIK.)

Well the numbers of trans people are really small less then 1% and asking a cis woman if she was a man or a man if he was a she will piss that person off

As for problems with it other then they can't have kids is they higher cancer risks and the surprise risk(having a 3ed party tell)

You don't have to ask directly if they're a man or a woman. Just say "I'm uncomfortable having sex with trans people." and if they don't come forward, then it's on them, if they're actually trans. But unless someone says that, they shouldn't automatically expect people will be uncomfortable with them.

Oldmike wrote:

Well the numbers of trans people are really small less then 1% and asking a cis woman if she was a man or a man if he was a she will piss that person off

Well, I don't see how that's the fault of the trans person. Sounds more like the cis person with the issue against trans people is, to paraphrase an earlier poster , just being selfish because they don't want to risk not getting sex by actually asking for information which is apparently extremely important to them in order to gain their consent and prevent them from committing homicide.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
Why should disclosure be the burden of the trans person?

Maybe people who aren't cool with the idea of partnering with transgender people ought to be open about that early in the relationship.

Except for psychological factors, the only real difference between a potential long-term relationship with a trans person and a potential long-term relationship with a non-trans person is that trans people aren't capable of having children by the usual biological processes. (AFAIK.)

Ya know why should it be the burden of the people who are not cool with partnering up with trans folks.

at some point its everyones responsibility to act like adults.