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bort wrote:

 Trade_Prince wrote:

bort wrote:
I wonder how much the Infiltrators will cost vs Intercessors? I like the gun okay, though shame to give up the Vigilus vet power. But, main thing I’m tempted by if they’re priced low enough is the scrambler to block deep strike landing within 12”. Forcing an opponent to charge an extra 3” or skip rapid fire is pretty nice bubble wrap.

Well, same power level, so probably not that much more. I'd guess between a Reiver and an Intercessor. Though a unit of 10 with the apothecary is pretty neat, especially if they are affected by Bolter Discipline. I'd be happy to drop all non-Primaris from my Troops slot, that's for sure.

According to to GW, they come with a separate mini codex and can be used for any Chapter. SW -1 stacking sounds like fun

-1 stacking? You mean the smoke grenades that mean you can't shoot that turn?
But yeah, if like 16-19 point range I'd easily consider a unit. Even more once they get their inevitable Vigilus equiv set of strats.

Overall though, I'm not too excited, beyond just awesome looking models. As I'm not tied to pure Primaris, I'd still prob take Scouts over the new sniper guys unless these new ones are costed super low. They have to be costed low to be equiv firepower, but then are still not Troops slots. However, for pure Primaris armies, I see their possible appeal. An option for sniping and indirect fire in 1 unit.

Ah, I assumed the Infiltrators have the same wording as the Supressors. The Supressors can do -1 and only the sergeant skips his shooting. Infiltrators, the whole unit. Booo!

With the stacking I was referring to the -1 hit strat SW have and one of their psychic powers to completely neuter a unit. But I guess its off the table for the infiltrators.. and no SW would run Supressors when they can just outflank Hellblasters.

I just hope they'll get weapon options like LCs on the Supressors or something...

I've been thinking about these guys a bit more, and I both like and dislike what I think GW is sort of going for here.

My issue with the new edition of Marines as always been they're supposed to be the mobile (by human standards), surgical strike team. But what did they do for rules? Designed an army list that doesn't like most transports and works best castling in a 6" ball that doesn't move. This seems weird, especially as someone who played back in 3rd where Marines had the rule that due to having com systems could use their leader's LD value anywhere on the table vs AM who could only shout a few inches and now every race has 6" auras/orders.

What I (think) I would have liked is some way for marines to give their auras to units not castled in place, so they could actually move independently. Say a 2CP strat for a captain to grant his reroll 1s to a wider range.
What these new Primaris get instead is still the 6" static aura ball, BUT now they have the flexibility to Scout deploy the entire aura ball anywhere they want. You've got your cap, lt, and lib, then the apothecary as part of the Infiltrator unit. It lacks the banner, but for a scout force, that's logical. But, what it also lacks is the heavy firepower units you want in your castle. Hellblasters and Aggressors can't join. I guess you're meant to fly Suppressors in?

No one will be afraid of that infiltrating force. The guns are low rate of fire, low strength, and low AP. There is no CC ability to speak of. All this does is bring the marines to the enemy which would benefit at least half of the potential opponents. We’ll see how it goes but I don’t see obvious synergy, which is a common theme with marines.

regarding supressors vs Hellblasters. and plasma Inceptors, It's worth noting supressors have both range AND aren't plasma so I think they'll be a superior choice (assuming the points are right) if you need a mobile anti-heavy infantry fire unit as they can safely dish out 2 damage without a re-roll aura. I expect Hellblasters to be the superior choice for a castle. regarding infiltrators vs intercessors. I think intercessors will be the better line unit yes, but Infiltrators will be an AMAZING screen unit use intercessors as your line troops, but the infiltrators can move up and cut off deepstrike etc. it'll REALLY put the screws to melee

What you said is probably right but your talking about a lot of points in troops and screens. Still no answers for tanks or knights.

What primaris really needed was the ability for Inceptors to take mini-thermal cannons, lets call them Melta-cannons.

18" Heavy2 Strength 8 AP -4 Damage D6 At half range roll 2 dice and pick the highest.



Put these on inceptors and you got something. 18" range so that you cant get the melta effect when you deep strike because thats too strong.

 BigErn wrote:
No one will be afraid of that infiltrating force. The guns are low rate of fire, low strength, and low AP. There is no CC ability to speak of. All this does is bring the marines to the enemy which would benefit at least half of the potential opponents. We’ll see how it goes but I don’t see obvious synergy, which is a common theme with marines.

Infiltrators will be among the most taken marine units in every competitive match.

1) They literally disable melee deepstrike - you can't charge if you're further than 12" away, GSC, Orcs and Chaos Demons can go cry in the corner

2) Deathwatch didn't have scouts before, this unit is an autoinclude for every DW player

3) They're the best midfield objective grabber, just place them on top and drop them smoke onto yourself, far more durable than scouts and most other troops for the cost, they can also heal themselves, which make them virtually impervious to small arms fire

The special rule on the gun is so annoying though; it's statistically worse than an AP-1 bolt rifle against the vast majority of infantry targets*. Assuming they cost 20 points or something, their shooting measured as points-per-wound is absolutely abysmal.

* any while, yes, it's a boost versus T8, in absolute terms you still shouldn't be shooting bolters at tanks.

Stacking minuses to hit looks like it might be quite viable actually, especially with suppressors. If the librarian gets a -1 to hit power then you’ll be able to get a lot of minuses on a unit.

The suppressors’ smoke works differently to the infiltrators. Infiltrators all have to not shoot but for the suppressors it’s just the sergeant. That could well be worth it for a squad larger than the 3 you get in the box.

Meanwhile for infiltrators I think it’s a nice trick for late game. You’re on an objective and the enemy doesn’t want you there. The option to give them -1 to hit is a nice thing to have. It will save you guys.

That bubble wrap effect is huge though, especially combined with the ability to deploy forward. You can seriously mess up armies like GSC that way and largely negate the threat from Da Jump and equivalent. Most armies will struggle to even be in rapid fire range.

So overall it looks like we’re getting a really solid troops choice, some decent snipers and an autocannon unit that might come in handy. We can probably take or leave the characters, though if the lieutenant isn’t too expensive then his model alone virtually justifies bringing him. Not too shabby.

 Dovis wrote:

 BigErn wrote:
No one will be afraid of that infiltrating force. The guns are low rate of fire, low strength, and low AP. There is no CC ability to speak of. All this does is bring the marines to the enemy which would benefit at least half of the potential opponents. We’ll see how it goes but I don’t see obvious synergy, which is a common theme with marines.

Infiltrators will be among the most taken marine units in every competitive match.

1) They literally disable melee deepstrike - you can't charge if you're further than 12" away, GSC, Orcs and Chaos Demons can go cry in the corner

2) Deathwatch didn't have scouts before, this unit is an autoinclude for every DW player

3) They're the best midfield objective grabber, just place them on top and drop them smoke onto yourself, far more durable than scouts and most other troops for the cost, they can also heal themselves, which make them virtually impervious to small arms fire

I agree, these will get used a lot imo.

However, I doubt that DW will get assess to this stuff – at least initially. DW are setup as the elites in their kill team styles. Unless they bring out a new “Vanguard” Kill Team, I just don’t see them getting access. Maybe with DW Codex 2020, but that’ll be it.

I’m also 75/25 on whether BA/DA/SW will get access to these as well. It’d kinda make sense that they do, but, I feel like it’ll just further remove the differences between those Chapters and the main Codex Chapters and that might be something GW wants to avoid.

See I’d be kind of shocked if DW didn’t get this stuff, on the basis that GW likes to sell models. These guys are actually kind of closer to how the DW operates than any other primaris marines we’ve seen so far. Guys trained for small-unit tactics and infiltration would be sought-after by the DW, I expect. Snipers also seem like something the DW could obviously make use of. Less so the suppressors I guess, though they’d still be handy – and a great addition to a squad.

I do wonder how they’ll go about adding them. I wouldn’t be surprised to see a single new datasheet eventually, with 5 infiltrators and the option to add eliminators and supporessors. Or maybe they’ll just let people take them as they are, or even both options like they do with reivers.

My only real fear is that infiltrators will essentially supersede intercessors. The vigilus detachment is probably the only thing keeping that from happening I think, and even that might not help if they get their own specialist detachment.

Kdash wrote:

 Dovis wrote:

 BigErn wrote:
No one will be afraid of that infiltrating force. The guns are low rate of fire, low strength, and low AP. There is no CC ability to speak of. All this does is bring the marines to the enemy which would benefit at least half of the potential opponents. We’ll see how it goes but I don’t see obvious synergy, which is a common theme with marines.

Infiltrators will be among the most taken marine units in every competitive match.

1) They literally disable melee deepstrike - you can't charge if you're further than 12" away, GSC, Orcs and Chaos Demons can go cry in the corner

2) Deathwatch didn't have scouts before, this unit is an autoinclude for every DW player

3) They're the best midfield objective grabber, just place them on top and drop them smoke onto yourself, far more durable than scouts and most other troops for the cost, they can also heal themselves, which make them virtually impervious to small arms fire

I agree, these will get used a lot imo.

However, I doubt that DW will get assess to this stuff – at least initially. DW are setup as the elites in their kill team styles. Unless they bring out a new “Vanguard” Kill Team, I just don’t see them getting access. Maybe with DW Codex 2020, but that’ll be it.

I’m also 75/25 on whether BA/DA/SW will get access to these as well. It’d kinda make sense that they do, but, I feel like it’ll just further remove the differences between those Chapters and the main Codex Chapters and that might be something GW wants to avoid.

GW said on their Fb page that DW will get them, I'm not sure how soon, but "eventually" they will have all Primaris units

It's all about point costs. No real answers can be made until we learn more.

PL gives a reasonable guestimate for points costs, roughly 20pts per PL. Not 1:1 by any means, but ballparkish.

Suppressors and HQs dont look too promising, but the Eliminators and Infiltrators have potential.

In regards to DW, GW will likely use the same strategy as last time. They will withhold the units until the multipart kit is out so as to allow us our fancy shoulder pads.

If you daisy chain the Infiltrators out in a long line, you can really mess with deep striking enemies. Especially if you make the line curved, so it pushes the 12" out further.

The line can be pretty spread out, and potentially quite far forward. Reserves can’t deploy within 12” of them or within 9” of whatever they’re screening, creating a very large zone.

The theory that DW will only get rules when they get the full kits sounds realistic. The initial codex is likely to cover the main space marines and potentially BA/DA/SW, as they all have the same equipment.

I’m sure they’ll get everything in the end. There’s no in-universe reason they wouldn’t, and obviously GW wants DW players’ money.

Yeah, you can really push the bubble if you chain them out. But then they will get shot up turn 1. Which is fine, but gets back to if they cost too much you could just bubble the same area with more regular scouts or Move’d AM (unless pure primaris).
Edit: oops, was thinking they had camo for some reason.

bort wrote:
Yeah, you can really push the bubble if you chain them out. But then they will get shot up turn 1. Which is fine, but gets back to if they cost too much you could just bubble the same area with more regular scouts or Move’d AM (unless pure primaris).
Edit: oops, was thinking they had camo for some reason.

They will get shot up regardless of how you spread them out as they are a liability.

This is now the problem with all screening units. The enemy can't deep strike until turn 2 anyway, so he can spend turn 1 removing your screens. Worst case is you actually accelerate something like orks across the board, by giving them a bonus charge, pile in and consolidate.

Added to which is that you don't need to screen so much, because the deep strikers can't even turn up till turn 2.

However there's an upside too. In the new missions you should know who's going first (unless someone siezes). So if you're setting up first, put your infiltrators forward. That's going to cause a big problem for your opponent. If you're going second hide them, then rush forward on your own turn 1 to push the bubble out.

Ultimately the 12" bubble is still a good thing even if it's just from your own DZ. It doesn't so much matter where it happens - what matters is that the bad guys are too far away to charge you or rapid fire at you. So the priority is actually to keep these guys alive till turn 2 - not to screen vast areas of the board when the baddies can't even deploy yet.

These have built in one turn durability buff. Use that on the turn one, so they're harder to wipe.

Yeah RAW if you don't go first you can still use the launcher and if you don't play it that way (which is entirely reasonable) you can still use the counts as in cover strat to beef them up further. Throw in Raven Guard tactics and they are bare minimum -1 to hit possibly -2 to hit and packing a +1 cover save. Take two units of ten and you completely block off deepstrike, but granted that is likely going to be a pretty expensive investment for some basic bolter bros who don't really do much but exist.

I find that intercessors are actually pretty useful against other people's troops. The problem comes with taking small numbers of them, in which case they are fairly easy to remove.

Instead, I'm using around 30 of them now, and it seems to work pretty well. People just don't have enough D2 weapons to quickly remove that many guys, especially from cover, and they hit back hard. They kill enemy troops in the shooting phase and assault phase, while not dying at all easily to small arms fire themselves.

One potential trick with smoke bombs is to throw them and then charge something. You can't shoot but there's nothing stopping you punching people, and you're then somewhat protected from retaliation.

Anyway my point is that I think infiltrators look like a seriously strong option. I can see myself fielding 20 of them, with the option to combat squad against stuff like GSC.

How many points would you pay per guy? Since they’re basically compared to intercessors and trading the Vigilus damage buffs for the 12” bubble.

Their guns are worse too. And at least initially they don't have the melee weapon option on the sergeants. One could imagine that it would change with the multipart kits, as the same upgrade bits fit, but then again, they fit the Reivers too yet they don't get them...

bort wrote:
How many points would you pay per guy? Since they’re basically compared to intercessors and trading the Vigilus damage buffs for the 12” bubble.

They're worse at fighting, but have more utility options. I'd be happy with 18 points with 5 extra for the medic. 19 might be doable as well.

I really hope the medic is not prohibitively expensive. It is such a cool addition.

 Crimson wrote:
I really hope the medic is not prohibitively expensive. It is such a cool addition.

I doubt the medic costs any more. The Grenadier Intercessor doesn't.

Edited: Oops, first missed this guy was own unit only, so I see why you expect him to be so cheap, but still if you get back 1w per round and these guys are about 20pts, he’s saving you 60. So,it still wouldn’t shock me to see him cost like 20, but yeah, okay I hope he costs more like 5-10.

There are two precedents that could be used for determining the cost of the Infiltrator Helix Adept. He could be like a Boss Nob and have the same price as the rest of the unit. He could also be like a Wolf Guard Pack Leader and have a separate price. I am hoping he is more like a Boss Nob. Though the fact the PL goes up by 6 instead of 5 leads me to believe he will be more like a WGPL.