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It puts out a dumb amount of DAKKA.

its really expensive and i would of loved a turret less option for a discount but it will do stuff.

cant have enough lascannons amiright?

 Desubot wrote:
It puts out a dumb amount of DAKKA.

its really expensive and i would of loved a turret less option for a discount but it will do stuff.

cant have enough lascannons amiright?

I was thinking the other day that what the Primaris really need is an upgraded Land Speeder that can carry a 5 man squad. It would fit with their high tech repulsor style. Also Land Speeders are just awesome and I always wanted a reason to use one. Giving them to only scouts always annoyed me.

A 5 Man Land speeder, with Fly and (if we're really greedy) deepstrike would just be such a cool way to move intercessors around the battlefield. Even if it didn't have the open topped rule it would still be a nice option for mobility.

 Desubot wrote:
It puts out a dumb amount of DAKKA.

its really expensive and i would of loved a turret less option for a discount but it will do stuff.

cant have enough lascannons amiright?

Not a massive fan of the model, its growing on me, but the lack of high damage options for primaris makes me want one. It'll take a beating and be a perfect delivery for the aggressors or even hellblasters.

I also play fists and wasn't overly stoked about their CT, but after playing a few games with my incredibly un-competitive list the removal of cover really ruins people's plans. It definitely increases the effectiveness of intercessors.

I rate the Repulsor. Highly. The dakka alone might be not worth it, as three Razorbacks can do more. The capacity alone will not do. But all of those combined in a T8 chassis is pretty good. It usually transports 5-7 Hellblasters and 2-3 characters, which is the reason I go first in most games. Next to Razorbacks and Predators it is another source of LCs. though I usually only run the TLC, not the Talon.

The drawback is that it gets targeted quite frequently, so before the big AT guns are silenced, it try to keep it in cover and buff it with Might of Heroes. This is also the reason I like the Tech Marine, apart from being cheap and being able to carry Primarch's Wrath.

YMMV though.

 Trade_Prince wrote:
I rate the Repulsor. Highly. The dakka alone might be not worth it, as three Razorbacks can do more. The capacity alone will not do. But all of those combined in a T8 chassis is pretty good. It usually transports 5-7 Hellblasters and 2-3 characters, which is the reason I go first in most games. Next to Razorbacks and Predators it is another source of LCs. though I usually only run the TLC, not the Talon.

The drawback is that it gets targeted quite frequently, so before the big AT guns are silenced, it try to keep it in cover and buff it with Might of Heroes. This is also the reason I like the Tech Marine, apart from being cheap and being able to carry Primarch's Wrath.

YMMV though.

Why dont you use the talon? surely 2 las shots for 4pts are far more valuable than the 12 s5 shots?

Process wrote:

 Trade_Prince wrote:
I rate the Repulsor. Highly. The dakka alone might be not worth it, as three Razorbacks can do more. The capacity alone will not do. But all of those combined in a T8 chassis is pretty good. It usually transports 5-7 Hellblasters and 2-3 characters, which is the reason I go first in most games. Next to Razorbacks and Predators it is another source of LCs. though I usually only run the TLC, not the Talon.

The drawback is that it gets targeted quite frequently, so before the big AT guns are silenced, it try to keep it in cover and buff it with Might of Heroes. This is also the reason I like the Tech Marine, apart from being cheap and being able to carry Primarch's Wrath.

YMMV though.

Why dont you use the talon? surely 2 las shots for 4pts are far more valuable than the 12 s5 shots?

I think this is up for debate. I do have a las talon on my first repulsor but am thinking of adding a Gatling cannon instead to the second.

The talon’s range is a problem on the repulsor. It isn’t fast and it often needs to be in one place, typically wherever it’s taking its passengers. This may then mean it can’t reach things. And sometimes people can just deploy out of its range.

The Gatling cannon is a very different gun. Being able to kill infantry far away can win games, especially in late game. It’s very hard to hide from a repulsor’s Gatling cannon.

A las talon does about 2.6 damage to a t7 3+ save vehicle. The Gatling cannon averages 1.33. So it’s about half as much damage, if there’s nothing else it can fire at. It’s not much but it’s not totally useless for the job.

There’s also a lot to be said for spreading your lascannons around your army, rather than putting them all on a couple of models. I like units like storm talons and repulsors that can do a bit of everything. You can build in redundancy across your army in this way. There’s no real penalty for doing so, as all your units can split fire.

Range being one factor for me and also spreading my anti-tank around a bit. Having that many LCs on one tank is rarely healthy. I suppose there are the Quad Las Preds, but lately I have been looking at TLC Razorbacks. I hate Razorbacks, but they are efficient. In a pure Primaris setup in a tank-heavy meta I'd definitely consider the Talon though.

 Trade_Prince wrote:
Range being one factor for me and also spreading my anti-tank around a bit. Having that many LCs on one tank is rarely healthy. I suppose there are the Quad Las Preds, but lately I have been looking at TLC Razorbacks. I hate Razorbacks, but they are efficient. In a pure Primaris setup in a tank-heavy meta I'd definitely consider the Talon though.

But asides from hammer and anvil it has decent movement, power of the machine meh and 24" which should easily reach anything asides from the most bunkered of bunkered players sitting behind terrain in the furthest of corners.

But sometimes you don't really want to move out of cover or risk getting close to short-ranged anti-tank.

Process wrote:

 Trade_Prince wrote:
I rate the Repulsor. Highly. The dakka alone might be not worth it, as three Razorbacks can do more. The capacity alone will not do. But all of those combined in a T8 chassis is pretty good. It usually transports 5-7 Hellblasters and 2-3 characters, which is the reason I go first in most games. Next to Razorbacks and Predators it is another source of LCs. though I usually only run the TLC, not the Talon.

The drawback is that it gets targeted quite frequently, so before the big AT guns are silenced, it try to keep it in cover and buff it with Might of Heroes. This is also the reason I like the Tech Marine, apart from being cheap and being able to carry Primarch's Wrath.

YMMV though.

Why dont you use the talon? surely 2 las shots for 4pts are far more valuable than the 12 s5 shots?

We NEED the anti-horde. It isn't hard to stock up on Lascannon shots or Grav shots or Plasma shots, but we need the high rate of fire. Conscripts are significantly less powerful now with the Commisar errata, but they have ways to get essentially the same benefit.

Its pretty handy that you can run a decent army out of DI, especially if you swap the nurgle half with a friend and pick up another box of Hellblasters, especially since the Rapid Fire version of the guns are the best version of the infantry guns.

Just pick up a Primaris Captain (Ive got one with a PFist) and maybe a Libby, and away you go!

 Crazyterran wrote:
Its pretty handy that you can run a decent army out of DI, especially if you swap the nurgle half with a friend and pick up another box of Hellblasters, especially since the Rapid Fire version of the guns are the best version of the infantry guns.

Just pick up a Primaris Captain (Ive got one with a PFist) and maybe a Libby, and away you go!

Basically the army I have been running since day one, minus the aggressors. Has been doing wonderfully, but we play objectives quite a bit.

Played against the new Ulthwe with Primaris, Guilliman, Scouts and a few Razorbacks. Got my arse handed to me. Thoroughly. The long ranged firepower is amazing, the Stratagems range from very useful to game defining, the psychic powers come cheap and are very strong. The defensive buffing is very powerful and the mobility can easily outmaneuver a Guilliman blob. In short, we're screwed Oo

Well, Primaris were never really good... they just look way too good to skip!

Mandragola wrote:

 Trade_Prince wrote:
Aye, I think that sums up Primaris fairly well, especially when played with Guilliman. Numerical efficiency. Re-rolls are strong, but they are not fun.

Having said that, LCs on the Repulsor and Hellblasters rely on those re-rolls to perform well. Outside of those re-rolls Marines in general and Primaris in particular give up their biggest strength when compared to AM, CSM and Eldar, which is effiency per shot fired.

Agreed. If you change the rerolls you'd have to change a lot else. It's not easy to fix.

I think what I'd ask for is to have characters hand out bonuses to specific units, rather than have them just passively emit them. Maybe any hero could buff one unit, a captain two and a chapter master three - or a better version of the order.

Seems to work ok for the 6 non ultramarine chapters. I think people forget ultramarines aren't the only space marines.

Danny slag wrote:

Mandragola wrote:

 Trade_Prince wrote:
Aye, I think that sums up Primaris fairly well, especially when played with Guilliman. Numerical efficiency. Re-rolls are strong, but they are not fun.

Having said that, LCs on the Repulsor and Hellblasters rely on those re-rolls to perform well. Outside of those re-rolls Marines in general and Primaris in particular give up their biggest strength when compared to AM, CSM and Eldar, which is effiency per shot fired.

Agreed. If you change the rerolls you'd have to change a lot else. It's not easy to fix.

I think what I'd ask for is to have characters hand out bonuses to specific units, rather than have them just passively emit them. Maybe any hero could buff one unit, a captain two and a chapter master three - or a better version of the order.

Seems to work ok for the 6 non ultramarine chapters. I think people forget ultramarines aren't the only space marines.

Seems to? Not quite. Most folks treat Ultramarines as the only Space Marines because in a lot of cases they're the best and only answer. Rowboat Girlyman is that powerful.

He’s powerful, but forces you to play in a very predictable way. All of those razorbacks clumped together are really vulnerable to being locked down in melee and losing their shots.

I think other types of primaris army have a decent chance against Eldar. I’m actually glad that standing in a blob and rolling dice might not be a viable strategy any more.

Ravenguard seems OK, but there is still the issue of killing Serpents as well as a WK.

Rowboat is like cawl for the ad Mech,everyone thinks the army is "trash" without them because of silly wargamer syndrome. The armies work just fine without them, you just think they don't because those characters are so overpowered. If neither of them existed you wouldn't have any issue.
Try playing without them for a change, it'll be less boring.

Danny slag wrote:
Rowboat is like cawl for the ad Mech,everyone thinks the army is "trash" without them because of silly wargamer syndrome. The armies work just fine without them, you just think they don't because those characters are so overpowered. If neither of them existed you wouldn't have any issue.
Try playing without them for a change, it'll be less boring.

I've tried it a few times and failed. But I admit that many lists may not have been optimized and that Guilliman may have made me lazy.

Let's expand on that. In light of the new Eldar and IG as well as Chaos, how would a solid UM list function without Guilliman?

Danny slag wrote:
Rowboat is like cawl for the ad Mech,everyone thinks the army is "trash" without them because of silly wargamer syndrome. The armies work just fine without them, you just think they don't because those characters are so overpowered. If neither of them existed you wouldn't have any issue.
Try playing without them for a change, it'll be less boring.

Except the fact that the only other HQ outside the 50 point one is stupidly expensive and that you need to camp because nothing has mobility unless you want to pay CP for it, so you might as well get the most bang for your buck and reroll everything?

You're right. It's a super functional army. Super functional.

Danny slag wrote:
Rowboat is like cawl for the ad Mech,everyone thinks the army is "trash" without them because of silly wargamer syndrome. The armies work just fine without them, you just think they don't because those characters are so overpowered. If neither of them existed you wouldn't have any issue.
Try playing without them for a change, it'll be less boring.

For primarily Primaris, that's how it is, though. His aura is fantastic and makes otherwise mediocre units really good, and excellent units even better. That shouldn't be surprising.

But I agree, it's immensely less boring.

It's also less efficient, because it lowers the offensive punch of some Primaris units that were already forced to be immobile in the first place, like the Redemptor.

 Trade_Prince wrote:

Danny slag wrote:
Rowboat is like cawl for the ad Mech,everyone thinks the army is "trash" without them because of silly wargamer syndrome. The armies work just fine without them, you just think they don't because those characters are so overpowered. If neither of them existed you wouldn't have any issue.
Try playing without them for a change, it'll be less boring.

I've tried it a few times and failed. But I admit that many lists may not have been optimized and that Guilliman may have made me lazy.

Let's expand on that. In light of the new Eldar and IG as well as Chaos, how would a solid UM list function without Guilliman?

There is 0 reason to play ultra marines without Guilliman. Crimson fist and salamanders tactics are how you play marines without guilliman - or you can play dark angels. It's not a syndrome. Ultra marines suck massive chode without bobby G. It's kind of like playing any army without an army trait.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
For those of you that like to play primaris only like me. I'd invite you to play with infantry only and surround guilliman and an ancient with relic banner. It's a very tough list and a lot of times your opponent will beat himself - you are practically getting 2 shooting phases to his 1. You can keep your drops pretty low too by taking big units and you need not fear leadership because every unit is near the banner. It works best with primaris because they are naturally tougher than standard marines and get more power into a smaller area. Plus their close combat ability is practically double and this army moves towards the enemy every turn.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Danny slag wrote:
Rowboat is like cawl for the ad Mech,everyone thinks the army is "trash" without them because of silly wargamer syndrome. The armies work just fine without them, you just think they don't because those characters are so overpowered. If neither of them existed you wouldn't have any issue.
Try playing without them for a change, it'll be less boring.

Except the fact that the only other HQ outside the 50 point one is stupidly expensive and that you need to camp because nothing has mobility unless you want to pay CP for it, so you might as well get the most bang for your buck and reroll everything?

You're right. It's a super functional army. Super functional.

Good points but their is also chronus - hes 35 points.

It is super lame that every marine army is led by the only existing loyalist Primarch. I refuse to use him.

 Crimson wrote:
It is super lame that every marine army is led by the only existing loyalist Primarch. I refuse to use him.

I didn't write the rules - I just play by them. Marine units are pretty much terrible without rerolling everything. They pay for armor saves on every unit in a game that removes them with ease. Yet our high AP weapons are often ignored by invo saves which we have practically no access to. ESP not on our ranged units. Funny the only marine armies that are able to compete are those that bring guilliman which basically doubles your offensive output and azreal which doubles your defense (this...just to compete). Imagine if AM or elder had access to a unit like guilliman. Could any army survive for 1 turn?

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Crimson wrote:
It is super lame that every marine army is led by the only existing loyalist Primarch. I refuse to use him.

I didn't write the rules - I just play by them. Marine units are pretty much terrible without rerolling everything. They pay for armor saves on every unit in a game that removes them with ease. Yet our high AP weapons are often ignored by invo saves which we have practically no access to. ESP not on our ranged units. Funny the only marine armies that are able to compete are those that bring guilliman which basically doubles your offensive output and azreal which doubles your defense (this...just to compete). Imagine if AM or elder had access to a unit like guilliman. Could any army survive for 1 turn?

I feel the same, given the trend of what newly released army have, Marine is not a good / decent army in 8th Edition. The codex marine are actually in a situation as 7th edition Tyrainds, when their only competitive built is spamming Flyrants surrounding Malanthrope (maybe plus a Mawloc or two), now our maybe only strong build is spamming Razorbacks surrounding Guiliman (maybe plus a Stormraven).
Moreover, like what Nids player have complaint about their situation in 7th environment, most of marine staple units in 8th are overcosted and bad at accomplish their job in 8th. Such as Tactical marine, Assault marine, and Terminators, and most significant, the Droppod. While the high VoF hurts Nids horde in 7th, it hits Marine more (especially those AP-1/2) cos every lost in marine hurts. So how do we adapt the 8th environment, to have a chance of doing something before getting neutralized? Simplist answer is: Bring Guiliman.

 Xenomancers wrote:

 Trade_Prince wrote:

Danny slag wrote:
Rowboat is like cawl for the ad Mech,everyone thinks the army is "trash" without them because of silly wargamer syndrome. The armies work just fine without them, you just think they don't because those characters are so overpowered. If neither of them existed you wouldn't have any issue.
Try playing without them for a change, it'll be less boring.

I've tried it a few times and failed. But I admit that many lists may not have been optimized and that Guilliman may have made me lazy.

Let's expand on that. In light of the new Eldar and IG as well as Chaos, how would a solid UM list function without Guilliman?

There is 0 reason to play ultra marines without Guilliman. Crimson fist and salamanders tactics are how you play marines without guilliman - or you can play dark angels. It's not a syndrome. Ultra marines suck massive chode without bobby G. It's kind of like playing any army without an army trait.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
For those of you that like to play primaris only like me. I'd invite you to play with infantry only and surround guilliman and an ancient with relic banner. It's a very tough list and a lot of times your opponent will beat himself - you are practically getting 2 shooting phases to his 1. You can keep your drops pretty low too by taking big units and you need not fear leadership because every unit is near the banner. It works best with primaris because they are naturally tougher than standard marines and get more power into a smaller area. Plus their close combat ability is practically double and this army moves towards the enemy every turn.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:

Danny slag wrote:
Rowboat is like cawl for the ad Mech,everyone thinks the army is "trash" without them because of silly wargamer syndrome. The armies work just fine without them, you just think they don't because those characters are so overpowered. If neither of them existed you wouldn't have any issue.
Try playing without them for a change, it'll be less boring.

Except the fact that the only other HQ outside the 50 point one is stupidly expensive and that you need to camp because nothing has mobility unless you want to pay CP for it, so you might as well get the most bang for your buck and reroll everything?

You're right. It's a super functional army. Super functional.

Good points but their is also chronus - hes 35 points.

Honestly I thought I was in the AdMech thread so I was talking to the guy as an AdMech player

This insistence that you need Guilliman is flat wrong. A friend and I took marine armies that were almost all Primaris to the recent GT heat and both qualified. He went 5:0 with a Primaris (apart from 4 dreadnoughts and a storm talon) Ravenguard army. I went 3:2 with crimson fists, and might have won the two games I lost if I knew what I was doing (and if repressors weren’t hideously broken).

Since the 8th ed codex dropped our combined tournament record with marines, and not using Guilliman, is 16:3. You can watch a video of my friend massacring a Guilliman army on Warhammer TV – if you can be bothered to pay £5. The guy concedes when Guilliman dies on turn 2 so it’s probably not worth the money.

Guilliman forces you to play badly – clumping all of your guys together in one place. He’s good enough that he makes that less of an awful idea, but it’s still very bad. The army can’t move or adapt so now that tank companies out-shoot them they have nowhere to go. To be fair, tank companies are ridiculous so hopefully something will change there.

If you play a mobile list built around intercessors, hellblasters and repulsors, plus the odd flyer or dreadnought, you ought to be fine. You can take on most armies and beat them.

. Guilliman forces you to play badly
. Guilliman shows up in most of the topping lists for SM armies

Pick one.

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
. Guilliman forces you to play badly
. Guilliman shows up in most of the topping lists for SM armies

Pick one.

Those are not mutually-exclusive. As I said, He’s good enough that he makes clumping all of your guys in one place less of an awful idea, but it’s still very bad.

Spamming razorbacks with Guilliman will win you games, and it's clearly a good list. It's just very limited in what it can do. A mobile list will tend to have less raw firepower, but far more options.