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Mandragola wrote:
This insistence that you need Guilliman is flat wrong. A friend and I took marine armies that were almost all Primaris to the recent GT heat and both qualified. He went 5:0 with a Primaris (apart from 4 dreadnoughts and a storm talon) Ravenguard army. I went 3:2 with crimson fists, and might have won the two games I lost if I knew what I was doing (and if repressors weren’t hideously broken).

Since the 8th ed codex dropped our combined tournament record with marines, and not using Guilliman, is 16:3. You can watch a video of my friend massacring a Guilliman army on Warhammer TV – if you can be bothered to pay £5. The guy concedes when Guilliman dies on turn 2 so it’s probably not worth the money.

Guilliman forces you to play badly – clumping all of your guys together in one place. He’s good enough that he makes that less of an awful idea, but it’s still very bad. The army can’t move or adapt so now that tank companies out-shoot them they have nowhere to go. To be fair, tank companies are ridiculous so hopefully something will change there.

If you play a mobile list built around intercessors, hellblasters and repulsors, plus the odd flyer or dreadnought, you ought to be fine. You can take on most armies and beat them.

In my experience, the Repulsor dies T1 as it is too big to hide in most cases or I deploy offensively and get seized on. I find it very hard to believe that this tank can hold up in an age of Eldar and IG battering down at it from 36" or more.

It can't. The Repulsor is a floating pile of garbage. Quite literally.

Martel732 wrote:
It can't. The Repulsor is a floating pile of garbage. Quite literally.

Is there anything you like? Why do you even play this game or post on these boards other than to mope and whine? I'm asking honestly.

 Trade_Prince wrote:

Mandragola wrote:
This insistence that you need Guilliman is flat wrong. A friend and I took marine armies that were almost all Primaris to the recent GT heat and both qualified. He went 5:0 with a Primaris (apart from 4 dreadnoughts and a storm talon) Ravenguard army. I went 3:2 with crimson fists, and might have won the two games I lost if I knew what I was doing (and if repressors weren’t hideously broken).

Since the 8th ed codex dropped our combined tournament record with marines, and not using Guilliman, is 16:3. You can watch a video of my friend massacring a Guilliman army on Warhammer TV – if you can be bothered to pay £5. The guy concedes when Guilliman dies on turn 2 so it’s probably not worth the money.

Guilliman forces you to play badly – clumping all of your guys together in one place. He’s good enough that he makes that less of an awful idea, but it’s still very bad. The army can’t move or adapt so now that tank companies out-shoot them they have nowhere to go. To be fair, tank companies are ridiculous so hopefully something will change there.

If you play a mobile list built around intercessors, hellblasters and repulsors, plus the odd flyer or dreadnought, you ought to be fine. You can take on most armies and beat them.

In my experience, the Repulsor dies T1 as it is too big to hide in most cases or I deploy offensively and get seized on. I find it very hard to believe that this tank can hold up in an age of Eldar and IG battering down at it from 36" or more.

You need way way more LoS blocking terrain.

Lemondish wrote:

You need way way more LoS blocking terrain.

Repulsor is quite big and is on a flight stand. It takes a rather large piece of terrain to completely block the line of sight.

 GangstaMuffin24 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
It can't. The Repulsor is a floating pile of garbage. Quite literally.

Is there anything you like? Why do you even play this game or post on these boards other than to mope and whine? I'm asking honestly.

Certainly not a line of models that double downs on the problems marines already have. People need to know how poorly the Repulsor performs before they purchase it.

Martel732 wrote:

 GangstaMuffin24 wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
It can't. The Repulsor is a floating pile of garbage. Quite literally.

Is there anything you like? Why do you even play this game or post on these boards other than to mope and whine? I'm asking honestly.

Certainly not a line of models that double downs on the problems marines already have. People need to know how poorly the Repulsor performs before they purchase it.

You really should put a caveat about your own personal play group and how ass to the glass competitive they are.

because quite frankly its fine outside of the most cheese of cheese lists. if nothing its just too bloated and wastes a bit of time when rolling for the dumb amount of anti infantry weapons it has.

Any scrub with some lascannons or dark lances can smoke this thing instantly. In some cases, BEFORE IT CAN MOVE. Cheaper and smaller and less liability is the key in 8th. Primaris does not work in the game that they themselves have made. I'm sorry, I didn't write it.

Also, models in dying transports are SLAIN on a "1". Not take a wound. Slain. So why would anyone put oompa loompa marines in a transport that's going to instantly get smoked and then potentially lose even more points in models, because even an average player can see that it's their ONLY mobility?

Martel732 wrote:

Certainly not a line of models that double downs on the problems marines already have. People need to know how poorly the Repulsor performs before they purchase it.

I mainly purchased it because it is pretty, but it would of course be nice if it was not just a fancy paperweight. I have not yet used it in a game, but its durability/cost ratio worries me; considering how fast Leman Russes go down, this thing is not gonna last long.

Martel732 wrote:
Any scrub with some lascannons or dark lances can smoke this thing instantly. In some cases, BEFORE IT CAN MOVE. Cheaper and smaller and less liability is the key in 8th. Primaris does not work in the game that they themselves have made. I'm sorry, I didn't write it.

Iv yet to lose it first turn. certainly second turn but not first turn.

sorry that your experience isnt the only one.

I'm glad for you, but I'm stating why I would never, EVER use this thing. And I don't recommend anyone else use it, either.

It IS a cool model. If only that mattered more.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Crimson wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

Certainly not a line of models that double downs on the problems marines already have. People need to know how poorly the Repulsor performs before they purchase it.

I mainly purchased it because it is pretty, but it would of course be nice if it was not just a fancy paperweight. I have not yet used it in a game, but its durability/cost ratio worries me; considering how fast Leman Russes go down, this thing is not gonna last long.

Yup. It needed T9 or 2+ armor at a minimum.

I've got a Repulsor on order, looking forward to seeing it in action. I think it might come today or tomorrow in fact. I'm just worried that its such a point sink, we mostly play 1000 or 1500, so I'll probably only be trying it in 1500 point games.

How has the different load outs worked for everyone?

Never had a Repulsor die first turn. I always pop it behind a hill, or building, and fly it right over on my turn. I'm usually able to still keep it out of los of the most dangerous things then as well, except for those castle deployments.

But then again we play with big los blocking terrain instead of these line em up and shoot games you guys do.

Lemondish wrote:
Never had a Repulsor die first turn. I always pop it behind a hill, or building, and fly it right over on my turn. I'm usually able to still keep it out of los of the most dangerous things then as well, except for those castle deployments.

But then again we play with big los blocking terrain instead of these line em up and shoot games you guys do.

Have fun autolosing to IG like that.

Mandragola wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
. Guilliman forces you to play badly
. Guilliman shows up in most of the topping lists for SM armies

Pick one.

Those are not mutually-exclusive. As I said, He’s good enough that he makes clumping all of your guys in one place less of an awful idea, but it’s still very bad.

Spamming razorbacks with Guilliman will win you games, and it's clearly a good list. It's just very limited in what it can do. A mobile list will tend to have less raw firepower, but far more options.

Well it's clearly not a bad idea when Rowboat exists. You can't say it's a bad idea at all with him. It's limited in what it can do, which is kill things super quick. That's not a limiting factor at all.

 Crimson wrote:

Lemondish wrote:

You need way way more LoS blocking terrain.

Repulsor is quite big and is on a flight stand. It takes a rather large piece of terrain to completely block the line of sight.

The Repulsor is about 7-8 cm tall, 17 cm long and 10½ cm wide. The "flight stand" is 0,5 cm tall, or 1 cm tall if you use both on top of each other. I am not sure I would call it 'quite big' and it may give a bit of a distorted image if we call it a 'flight stand' because most would picture an actual flight stand for any of the current fliers.

In most circumstances it should be able to hide it relatively well, if the table have any amount of LoS blocking terrain in the deployment zone.

Spiky Norman wrote:

 Crimson wrote:

Lemondish wrote:

You need way way more LoS blocking terrain.

Repulsor is quite big and is on a flight stand. It takes a rather large piece of terrain to completely block the line of sight.

The Repulsor is about 7-8 cm tall, 17 cm long and 10½ cm wide. The "flight stand" is 0,5 cm tall, or 1 cm tall if you use both on top of each other. I am not sure I would call it 'quite big' and it may give a bit of a distorted image if we call it a 'flight stand' because most would picture an actual flight stand for any of the current fliers.

In most circumstances it should be able to hide it relatively well, if the table have any amount of LoS blocking terrain in the deployment zone.

I have not seen one in the flesh, could you post a pic comparing it to a rhino? Mine still hasn’t arrived.

Its quite a bit bigger than a rhino - closer to a land raider really. It isn’t easy to hide.

I used two last night for the first time and they did great work. I sent two repulsors and a storm raven and the raven attracted the early firepower instead of the repulsors. I took out the enemy AT and they were then free to gun down infantry for the rest of the game. Didn’t take too long.

Of course, it’s a little over 1k points for the 3 vehicles, so that’s quite a commitment. Not sure I’ve quite figured out what to put in the repulsors either. Last night I had 5 aggressors in one and 5 hellblasters, my captain and librarian in the other. It might be better to have 4 aggressors with 5he characters so I can have two hellblaster squads - or I could just have a squad of 8 hellblasters.

You also have to remember that in 8ed anything you see is a target, that also means if you attach the antenna to its turret, they will be used as target. Not as much of an issue in a casual environment, but definitely an issue in a WAAC crowd.

The Repulsor is a mixed bag. In 1000-1250 games it carried the whole game for me multiple times, even in tournaments. At 2000 points, where people usually have more tools to deal with it, it has been a liability more than anything else.

Like a lot of things, I think a repulsor needs to be in the right army to work well.

If you field one of them and it’s your only big vehicle, then of course it will have all your opponent’s lascannons fired at it. It will last a turn or two at best. But if you have several similar things, like storm ravens, repulsors, land raiders and the like, then your opponent will struggle to get rid of all of them.

f you focus down his AT troops, and protect your tanks from short-range killers with bubble wrap, then you can get into a position where your repulsors are safe. From that point on, they are really good for bullying smaller units back into your opponent’s case.

Depending on whether you’re using ITC rules or not, it may also be a pretty big help that you really bring down your drop count by setting up characters, hellblasters and maybe a couple of other units inside a repulsor. First turn matters so much at the moment that it’s worth a lot to get it.

I also find my repulsors really useful for charging stuff. I send mine into other people's (non-flying) shooting units all the time. It massively reduces the shooting that comes back at you. It's good if you want to soak up overwatch on behalf of a character too.

I have seen competitive list that did well and had one Storm Raven along with smaller stuff. How much difference is there between a Raven and a Repulsor? The Raven is only slightly cheaper with a similar loadout (around 10-20 points) and has more dakka due to the rockets, but it is squisher and MUCH harder to hide than a Repulsor. There is the -1 modifier, but some weapons and units ignore it. In short, slghtly better on the offense but slightly worse on the defense. Yet the one Raven seems to suffice in a lot of cases.

 Trade_Prince wrote:
You also have to remember that in 8ed anything you see is a target, that also means if you attach the antenna to its turret, they will be used as target. Not as much of an issue in a casual environment, but definitely an issue in a WAAC crowd.

The Repulsor is a mixed bag. In 1000-1250 games it carried the whole game for me multiple times, even in tournaments. At 2000 points, where people usually have more tools to deal with it, it has been a liability more than anything else.

Quite sure that GW said to ignore these type of elements on models when determining line of sight. Same rule we had in 7th.

Raven is much faster, 3 X the long range dakka, and for me, is always empty. -1 to be hit is also much better than 1 T atm.

Martel732 wrote:
Raven is much faster, 3 X the long range dakka, and for me, is always empty. -1 to be hit is also much better than 1 T atm.

-1 hit is very marginal. S7 and S8 at BS4+ is exactly the same against the two targets. BS3+ pulls ahead by a very tiny amount (0.02% better chance to hit + wound). Only S9 pulls ahead for the Raven, but when Might of Heroes comes into play, then both are equal when shot by BS3+ and the Repulsor pulls ahead by 0.02% for hitting and wounding when shot by 4+. As such, the most prominent weapon combinations do around equally good. The Raven is more resistant to S10 weaponry that needs to hit, whereas the Repulsor is more resistant to units that ignore modifiers or hits altogether (like Reapers or any Flame weapons like Hemlocks or HF). The Repulsor is also more resistant to Mortal Wounds since it has slightly more Wounds. And the Repulsor can be hidden in cover or even out of line of sight far easier than the Raven. Plus, it can score.

This is why I said that the Repulsor is slightly tougher, whereas the Raven is slightly killier to due mobility and range advantage.

The raven and repulsor are not really doing the same thing, but they do have similarities. Both have a good mix of anti-tank and anti-personnel weaponry, and both should require a lot of effort to kill.

The raven isn’t so often useful as a transport. Its toughness comes from staying in flyer mode, but sometimes the most useful thing it can do is go into hover mode and charge something, to keep it from shooting. Trouble then is that it’s a very expensive model to risk in this way.

The repulsor is almost always going to actually be used as a transport. In fact I think it’s wrong to talk about repulsors without talking about the hellblasters you’ll have inside it, who will live longer and do more damage with its help.

Transports are really helpful in missions too. In kill point games you can have the last survivors of a beaten up unit fall back into a transport. In the relic, you can use the 3”+ base width to get a character most of the way to the middle of the board, then have the repulsor move up to prevent anyone from shooting them.

Anyway I’m not arguing between the raven and repulsor. I’m saying they work well together.

Mandragola wrote:
The raven and repulsor are not really doing the same thing, but they do have similarities. Both have a good mix of anti-tank and anti-personnel weaponry, and both should require a lot of effort to kill.

The raven isn’t so often useful as a transport. Its toughness comes from staying in flyer mode, but sometimes the most useful thing it can do is go into hover mode and charge something, to keep it from shooting. Trouble then is that it’s a very expensive model to risk in this way.

The repulsor is almost always going to actually be used as a transport. In fact I think it’s wrong to talk about repulsors without talking about the hellblasters you’ll have inside it, who will live longer and do more damage with its help.

Transports are really helpful in missions too. In kill point games you can have the last survivors of a beaten up unit fall back into a transport. In the relic, you can use the 3”+ base width to get a character most of the way to the middle of the board, then have the repulsor move up to prevent anyone from shooting them.

Anyway I’m not arguing between the raven and repulsor. I’m saying they work well together.

A combination I've think about to make "Repulsor Death Star" based on what Mandragola discussed.
The Repulsor keep the auto launcher, carrying 10 Hellblasters, supported by Tigirius to get a further -1 to hit, then have Guiliman running up close behind the tank.
Now the tank can be buffed to T9 Sv3+ and -2 to hit (i.e. AM tanks or barrages now normally hit it on 6+, even Pask need 4+ to hit, only Longstrike still can hit on 3+) when needed rushing towards the enemy, so when deployed properly, the enemy may need to be very good luck to cripple it in one turn. When closed to enemy, unload the Hellblasters to fire 20 S8 AP-4 2D shots with reoll to hit and to wound, plus whatever guns you put on the Repulsor, it should be a "hellish" beta strike for the enemy.

Tiggy definitely helps the Repulsor a lot. I won't debate that. UM has some nasty stuff in 8th.

Whichever you take though, Imperial Guard with 6 Primes, 6 LR tanks supported by Scions and Conscripts make a Repulsor or Raven look like a bit of a joke.

Also agreed. The only difference is that a typhoon/lascannon raven might be able to fire from a place where it can take less fire, sacrificing airborne mode to do it. However, I've leveraged this better vs Xenos with 36" guns.

Getting first turn against IG with a Repulsor as a Psyker generally gives you an advantage as you can buff the Repulsor to T9, neutering most of their guns as the current IG book typically does not run above S8, unless it is an artillery line.